Great Western Coffee Shop

"When Leah Senington arrived at Yatton railway station to pick up her pre-paid tickets to London, she was not expecting any hassle.  She was in good time to catch her train and well within the ticket office's opening hours.  But the office was shut, and she was asked to pay the full ^75 ticket price when she got to London.

The small ticket office in Yatton acts as a pick up point for pre-booked tickets and, according to the sign pinned in the window and information on First Great Western's website, should be open from Monday to Friday from 6.30am until 12.30pm.  But the office appears to close early on some days, which means people with a ticket to collect have to buy a second ticket to travel.

Miss Senington was told to get off at Bristol Temple Meads and collect her tickets from the Bristol ticket office.  She only had four minutes before her connecting train and did not have time to explain to staff why she did not have a ticket to get through the barriers.  The conductor's machine on the London train was broken, but after arriving she was told to pay the full fare of about ^75.  After refusing to pay and another explanation, she was finally allowed to collect her tickets.

She said: "The whole thing was a total nightmare and I'm already dreading my next trip.  I even called First Great Western the day before to check that it would be open and they said it would be, why didn't they communicate the closure to their staff?"

Cath Millman, of First Great Western said: "If you have trouble obtaining your ticket it is at the train manager's discretion and the worst-case scenario would be buying another ticket which could later be refunded.

"The early closure of the Yatton office is only a temporary circumstance and we hope that it will be back to normal soon."

For the full article, see http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Passengers-anger-train-ticket-office-shuts/article-284106-detail/article.html

Oh goodness - yet another story "of this ilk".  Good for Miss Senington that (it seems) she firmly stood her ground and didn't get browbeaten into paying the full fare.  But how must the experience have left her feeling?   And how would someone who didn't have their head screwed on right have coped?

Cath Millman of FGW is wrong and taking an arrogant attitude. Sorry. The "worst case scenario" is not just a refund.  The worst case scenario is a very upset customer who will be thinking about it for hours or days afterwards, and who doesn't feel the strength or know how to follow it up. And in my scenario, First Great Western end up pocketing the extra money which they have extracted from a perfecly rule abiding customer because of their own failure.  Sorry - I'm putting this very strongly, but I have been disgusted by parallel treatment I have seen for myself, to customers of mine ...

I bet getting that refund after the event would be a difficult and time-consuming process, as in any non-standard situation which the system isn't be geared up to deal with. And as grahame says it's simply not good enough to treat your customers this way.

Most people in this passenger's situation would probably not be assertive enough to hold their ground like she did, and would most likely react to the situation by avoiding trains altogether in future, not to mention moaning to everyone they knew and reinforcing FGW's bad reputation. For everyone I know who uses trains, there is at least one other person who has vowed never to travel by rail again because of being let down one way or another.

I don't see why the guards shouldn't be able to issue pre-booked tickets on the train in these circumstances. Their machines can connect to the credit card terminals so surely it should be possible to connect to the reservation system, just like the machines at stations do.

Unfortunately I suppose this would require investment in new machines, so it probably makes economic sense to FGW to lose customers instead.

grahame you've not put it strongly enough. This is  sympton of what's wrong with modern society especialy when dealing with the government and large corporations.

They make us jump through all sorts of hoops to get services, then when they go wrong  because of their mistakes it's not their fault and you have to go through yet another set of hoops to get any form of redress.

The most galling thing is that most of these companies make great play of their "customer service" and have "customer service  staff"  however most have never looked up customer and service in the dictionary and appear to be mearly apologists for the company with no power to put the matter right. Although most are treated like  the poor squaddies of WW1 forced into the firing line with little or no back up and are disiplined if they don't obey the rule book to the letter.

Rant over.

Cath Millman, of First Great Western said: "If you have trouble obtaining your ticket it is at the train manager's discretion and the worst-case scenario would be buying another ticket which could later be refunded

Yes she seems to be blaming the TM.  However the TM did use his discretion and allowed the lady to travel to her destination.  It was the barrier staff who asked her to pay the full amount for the journey.

Also if I might add there is a bit more to the story that shows on this site.  When you book tickets on the internet you must show your card at the station to pick them up or you can collect them from the fast ticket machine.  However the card used by the lady in question does not belong to her so really she should not have been able to collect the tickets either from the booking office or the fast ticket machine. 

She must have been relying on the good will of the ticket office staff to give her the tickets even though they should not have done so when the ticket office was closed she could not get them!

I should imagine when she got to the excess fare window at Paddington she was told to show the credit card, when she said she did not have it they probably asked her to buy a new ticket.  That is how the system works I am afraid.  Why cant her company give her a charge card to use ?  That is how all the other company travellers get their tickets.

The system seems quite reasonable to me.  It is just to confirm that you have paid for the tickets and you have not borrowed someone elses card for the transaction.

That only came in last year. You used to be able to put any card in the machine (you still can with some ticket issuers) and type in the code.

The office is apparently closed at the moment due to staff sickness and holiday leave.

Thanks for your comments, super tm!

However, if I may in turn comment on a couple of points, from a passenger perspective:

Yes, the full article in the Bristol Evening Post also covered the question of whether the lady was entitled to collect tickets that had been pre-paid by her employer.  I am in a similar position, working for a company which contracts with a supplier in Warrington for my travel.  They pay for my tickets, and send me a rail booking confirmation e-mail.  I can then collect my tickets, from either BTM or Nailsea, using the machines - I just insert a card (one of my own, certainly not the one they use in Warrington to pay for the ticket!) for identification, and the ticket reference number.

The only problem is, it does take time to queue up, get to a machine, shove in a card, key in your number and wait for the machine to print out the myriad of tickets/seat allocations and receipts.  That's probably why the lady didn't try to do that at BTM and risk missing her train to PAD!  I'm perhaps more fortunate in having a suitable machine at Nailsea & Backwell (when it's working!), so I can do this the day before I travel, for example - but there isn't one at Yatton.  Hence the need for a manned ticket office there - and if it's not manned properly, exactly this problem will occur again!

And yes, the train manager did allow her to travel - but he couldn't insist on her buying another ticket on board, as his machine was broken, apparently?  I also rather hope the barrier staff were more helpful than you describe, as the e-mail I am sent with my rail booking confirmation says, "Should you experience any problems collecting your tickets from a station FastTicket machine, please proceed to the station ticket office where a member of staff will assist you."

I must say, I've always found the staff in FGW ticket offices to be very friendly and helpful.  ;) :D ;D

Still think there might be more to it. But that's just me, I'm a sceptical person.

I have witnessed first hand advance tickets from a station further west being issued at Paddington due to machine not working/office being closed.

Reading that article doesn't tell me if she got her booked train or not? IF she got her booked train, her confirmation code and prove of reservations and such should have been enough for her as she was unable to collect at Yatton, and would have done so at Paddington.

It says she only had a 4 minute changeover at Bristol TM, as far as I know Bristol TM has a minimum connection time of 10 minutes.

I get the impression that maybe she didn't get her booked train.

But without knowing the full facts we can't really judge. All we have is what papers say..

A very diplomatic (but nevertheless helpful) answer, Ollie.  ;) :D ;D

Ahhh it was you that was taking the "Sceptical Training" class at Swindon :D

You are correct about the minimum connection time at BRI being 10 minutes.

maybe her connection arrived late?

I'm not sure knowing newspapers if that was the case they would be all over that as well.

"Not only could she not collect her ticket, but the train was late too meaning she only had 4 minutes to connect at Bristol Temple Meads"

I run the course :P

Knowing the papers, they've probably got some facts wrong.

Could it in fact have been the SAME train...?

That's certainly a plausible suggestion, Tom.   And indeed we shouldn't judge a case from the what the papers say, they do indeed simplify / get things wrong.

I appreciate there is a need for staff to be sceptical - there are a lot of people who will try to get away with as much as they can, avoid paying fares, etc; it's disappointing (but no doubt deemed neccesary) that there's a "sceptical training" course ... but in my view there's also a vital need to provide good customer service thoughout to honest customers who are trying to work within the rules, or what they know of the rules.  You shouldn't need an A level in Railway Fare Rules in order to travel by train.

We don't know the detail of the current case.   But I can tell you of an incident at the barriers at Swindon, with a customer being denied entry to the platform. She had a low cost / no break of journey / specific train ticket, Melksham to Paddington and was being asked questions that she didn't underdstand (English not her first language) that came across as having an aggressive tone.  So a "Prima face" case of breaking the rules, with a  revenue protection person only doing his job?   No - actually, First Great western had cancelled her 19:50 connecting train from Melksham ... and the National Rail call centre (after initial advise to wait for the next service, which wasn't due to the following morning) had agreed that if she could get a lift to Swindon, she could start her journey from there on the next available train.   

I really don't envy the job of FGW staff on the ground in trying to sort out (A) the intentional fare dodgers from (B) those who don't know the rules as well as the staff members in question do (and there's a whole other question about how much you should penalise a visitor from out of the area who accidentally gets it wrong) from (C) those who are within the rules, but the system / TOC has let down. 

Can I just point out that the sceptical training course was meant as a joke.

Yes - thank you. It's been a bit of a humerlous week and I shouldn't have been 'caught' by that ...

I'm hedging bets on it being the 0940 Yatton to London Paddington (0738 from Paignton). This train has a 3 minute wait at Bristol TM so could well have been 1 minute early. All other possible journies have a connection and are of 14 minutes or longer.

Fair comment, Tom  ::) !  I think you're right: that would make it the 0946 from Nailsea (which I catch sometimes).  Nailsea to BTM is just 10 minutes, so arriving at 0956 would indeed give 4 minutes before it leaves at 10:00 for PAD.

It generally uses platform 12 at BTM, so it wouldn't give time for someone to leave the train, go down through the subway, negotiate the barriers, collect a pre-paid ticket and return through the barriers, subway and get back on the train - even if they were an olympic hurdler!  ;D

Not quite sure you can fit an HST in 12?

11 perhaps?

So far as I'm concerned, when I get off that train from coach B, Liam, I step down onto platform 12.  However, it's an interesting point: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Temple_Meads -


Chris ;) :D ;D

I believe there is a TVM at Yatton? which you can pick up tickets from!

Fair comment, vacman - but is it situated inside the ticket office, or outside?  I'm just asking, because if the manned ticket office closes early, the machine too may not be available!

I honestly don't know: can anyone else help?

Can't give you a definite answer, but one of the reasons for a ticket machine is so it's accessible when ticket office unavailable, so if it's inside then that's a bit useless :)

Chippenham ... I recall seeing the dispatch staff re-opening the booking hall late one night for someone to collect their ticket from the machine carefully locked away in there when the booking staff had gone home.

Thanks, grahame!  ;)

On the other hand, both machines at Nailsea are situated very much out in the open - not even inside one of the perspex shelters - so they're almost immediately rendered useless whenever it rains!

 ::)

In the cases of staffed stations then having it inside is okay, as you say the dispatch staff are able to let people access it.

At least one TVM at Yatton is outside on the down side platform entrance.

Thanks for that confirmation, vacman!  ;)

In that case, it appears that the lady could indeed have collected her pre-paid tickets at Yatton after all.

However, it would still have been useful to have a member of staff available, to point her in the right direction, so to speak?   :D

Chris, have you complained to FGW about this? At Charlbury they have now provided a little roof due to the rainwater problem and at Hanborough, the new waiting shelter has an overhanging roof section at the end, which the machine sits under, having previously been out in the elements.

Do all machines issue prepaid tickets?

I'm not sure the one at Taplow does.

From what i've seen across the network it appears that all of the TVM's that are at staffed stations are able to print pre-paid tickets and ones that are at unstaffed stations don't.

Thanks for your very interesting comparative comments, willc!  ;)

A bit of history about the Nailsea and Backwell ticket machines: when they were first installed, both machines were 'stand-alone' - sited out in the open, with no shelter at all.  As a result, they were out of action almost all of the time, due to rainwater getting into them.  After several months of passengers moaning about this unsatisfactory state of affairs to train staff, when we all had to buy our tickets on board (Nailsea being unmanned at that time), a purpose-designed cover was installed over each machine.

However, this was not a real solution to the problem, as the sheet of perspex on top only protects the machines from rain falling vertically from above: the open front, and the side and back panels of mesh, still allows any driving rain to render these machines useless!  For those unfamiliar with Nailsea & Backwell, the platforms are located on top of an embankment, so the wind and rain just whips through those mesh panels (particularly on the machine on platform 2), thus still making them too soggy to work!

Pictures, courtesy of Fletcher on Tour (thanks, Lee!), illustrate this point:

(http://www.raildocuments.org.uk/apr08photos/130408nailsea15.jpg)

(http://www.raildocuments.org.uk/apr08photos/130408nailsea29.jpg)

I will admit the machines at Charlbury and Hanborough are a bit better located to protect them from the elements than these. Clearly that one on the platform needs to live inside a waiting shelter - is that what's sticking into the picture on the right?

Exactly right, willc!  I just don't understand why that particular machine was stuck out in the open at all, when it could have been positioned some six feet to the right, completely inside the platform shelter!

 ??? ::)

The one at Taplow is actually just under the (high) canopy at the West end of platform 4 (Up Relief). It is partly protected by teh permit to travl machine but still suffers in the wet.

The other problem we have is that it faces South so on sunny days you have stand so as to put the screen in your shadow otherwise you can't read it.

Taplow is only manned for 25% of the train service (no Sunday trains)  does that make manned or unmanned?

This fits with my experience.  I suspect that the reason behind it is that the prepaid ticket collection technology is not very reliable (it certianly was pretty poor a few months ago when I last used it heavily).  You eneter your booking code and the machine fails to contact the server or fails to find your ticket .  The 4 ot 5 times when I've had these problems they have always been soluable by ticket staff who can find your ticket on their computer and print it out for you.  I guess that without this fall back they don't trust the equipment to work reliably enough and wan't to aviod teh hassle of tickets not being issued and passengers either missing their trains or travelling without tickets and getting into arguments with ontrain staff

My pennyworth about this matter, I've seen far to many times people having trouble obtaining their Prepaid tickets from Booking Offices and more so from TVM's, a simple suggestion maybe it's time British Train Companies had in place for Internet and Telesales Tickets a Printable Bar Code for Internet sales and a Bar code sent to Mobile Phones, so that on train staff using a reader can print tickets on the train where the normal system of obtaining tickets has failed.

Something to Note about the TVM's installed by FGW, I spent a lot of time talking to a Scheidt & Bachmann service engineer one day whilst waiting for a train, the S & B engineer stated that the TVM's come with 2 types of touch screen,

The first type is  for indoor use
and a Second (more expensive type) for out-door use.

DO you Need to guess which type of touch screen FGW have on their TVM's?

Now all I'll say is my dad always use to say,  "Penny-wise & Pound Foolish"

The Shelters erected over some of the TVM's have cost many times the Extra cost of Outdoor screens that SHOULD have been fitted in the FIRST place.

LIke I've said before FGW just don't do their homework.

Norwegian State Railways (NSB) allows you to book your tickets on line for collection on the train.  You print your own booking confirmation and sit in your booked seat.  The guard comes round with your ticket, stamps it and hands it to you. 

All the airlines have e-tickets.

National Express have e-tickets with barcodes.

Indian Railways have e-tickets on which is printed the number of a form of photo id (eg passport, driving licence) which the guard can ask to see in order to validate your ticket.

Why can't the British train companies manage it? Then we wouldn't need to be worrying about it getting lost in the post, or whether or not the fast ticket machine happens to be working when we need it.

Virgin trains have got limited e-tickets (print at home) and m-tickets (sent to mobile) between London Euston and Manchester Picadilly. If booking tickets with megatrain.com (which covers South West Trains and East Midlands Trains) you get a reservation code sent by text message. So the British train companies are starting to introduce electronic tickets, it just needs to be extended.

Thanks very much for your comments, smokey: I agree entirely!

Now, I've been saving this snippet, I must admit, but now seems to be an opportune moment to raise it.  During one of my frequent 'moans' to a FGW conductor, while buying my ticket on board yet again due to the soggy machine at Nailsea not working, he said that the contract with Scheidt & Bachmann included the provision of purpose-built covers for their machines - but FGW originally declined those as 'unnecessary'.

It's rather ironic, then, that some time later, FGW have had to accept that some form of shelter is in fact necessary - and they've had to fit shelters after all!

And, just as an aside, I noted that the machine on platform 2 yesterday morning was 'out of service' (I flicked open the perspex cover and saw the usual pool of water in the trough where the tickets normally land - it had rained overnight!).  Furthermore, on my return journey yesterday evening, the machine on the footpath to platform 1 was also 'out of service' - again, it had rained during the afternoon.

I think we've established elsewhere that these machines cost over ^20,000 each - so why don't FGW look after them a bit better?

::) ???