Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => London to the West => Topic started by: willc on July 06, 2008, 19:16:39



Title: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: willc on July 06, 2008, 19:16:39
The following notice is on FGW homepage tonight


Dawlish Sea Wall
Sunday 06th July 2008 at 18:00

Due to expected high tides this evening at Dawlish, the line between Exeter St Davids and Newton Abbot may have to close.

There is a possibility that the line could remain closed on Monday 07th July.

Customers should check this website for details of possible service alterations before they travel.



Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on July 06, 2008, 19:19:14
Winds have dropped since last night and there weren't any major problems then.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on July 07, 2008, 10:22:03
Heard from sources from within FGW yesterday that two holes had been found under Dawlish station area hence the warning issued yesterday.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on July 07, 2008, 10:52:13
Two holes already, makes 50 years for opening a new route (see other link First Great Western Coffee Shop > Journey by Journey > London to the West > No Alternative To Dawlish Route "For Another 50 Years"
) seem a bit of a long time.

Looks like work should start on Okehampton to Bere Alston asap.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on July 07, 2008, 11:03:47
Two holes already, makes 50 years for opening a new route (see other link First Great Western Coffee Shop > Journey by Journey > London to the West > No Alternative To Dawlish Route "For Another 50 Years"
) seem a bit of a long time.

Looks like work should start on Okehampton to Bere Alston asap.

And miss out the area of devon that are economically reliant on the railway  ???

Dawlish, Teignmouth, Starcross and Torbay are reliant on a decent railway service - besides "Devon Metro" passenger number are growing!!!


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Lee on July 07, 2008, 13:00:21
Two holes already, makes 50 years for opening a new route (see other link First Great Western Coffee Shop > Journey by Journey > London to the West > No Alternative To Dawlish Route "For Another 50 Years"
) seem a bit of a long time.

Looks like work should start on Okehampton to Bere Alston asap.

Here is said link.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3098.msg23781#msg23781


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on July 07, 2008, 13:50:22
[

And miss out the area of devon that are economically reliant on the railway  ???

Dawlish, Teignmouth, Starcross and Torbay are reliant on a decent railway service - besides "Devon Metro" passenger number are growing!!!
[/quote]

Definitely not what I meant. If sea wall goes the whole of West Devon and Cornwall will be cut off from the national rail network and Dawlish etc. will loose their rail service. Therefore, it's  not an either or situation, repair the sea wall or do Okehampton - Bere Alston. It's both.

Okehampton - Bere Alston should be done now so that there is an alternative  rail route to the West whilst work starts on the sea wall. When Okehampton to Bere Alston is reopened it gives a diversionary rail route to Plymouth and the West. Then if the line has to be closed to repair the sea wall and buses used at times between Exeter and Newton Abbot  it means through passengers will have rail service, which must be good. Although not good for Dawlish etc. passengers.

Virgin certainly think it's better to run a train throughout otherwise why would they bother to run trains to Euston via Greenford when Rugby is shut?

It also seems to me that now is also the time to start planning the inland diversion and safeguarding the route possibly even buying the land. Which would mean  that if in future years the sea wall is damaged beyond repair in a freak storm there will still be a still be a rail route to Cornwall and work on the inland diversion could be started almost immediately.

I predict that if the sea wall is destroyed  beyond repair and the Southern route has not been reopened then the rail network  West of Exter will die a lingering death and Cornwall and West Devon will  suffer a major economic decline.

But then planning ahead is not the British way we just love to muddle through and trust to luck.





[/quote]


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: FarWestJohn on July 07, 2008, 15:08:59
RSSB have a very detailed study into this problem which is ongoing at the moment:

Working with the Environment Agency and using data from the Met Office Hadley Centre, RSSB modelled predictions of the effects of increased wave heights and storm surges on coast defences, using the length of railway at Dawlish in Devon.

^The effects of climate change, and in particular sea level rise, are likely to increase the severity of the wave, tidal and wind effects on coastal defences,^ said Network Rail^s chief engineer, Andrew McNaughton. ^This research aims to put us in a stronger position, to be able to quantify those effects and so consider future strategies.^

^Network Rail is using the results of the study to inform its specific feasibility study into the reconstruction of the sea wall at Dawlish, the results are due in the autumn.^

Further information about the research can be downloaded from the RSSB website:

 http://www.rssb.co.uk/pdf/reports/research/T643_apps_final.pdf

This will give you a wealth of detail.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: James Vertigan on March 25, 2010, 12:53:52
Just heard this was discussed on Radio Devon this morning, residents are concerned the sea could break through at any time and they say the Environment Agency hasn't done enough.

Do Network Rail (or FGW for that matter) work with the EA on protecting the sea wall, as it houses most of their property or do they have nothing to do with it?

Let's just hope it doesn't suddenly collapse with a train on it.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: inspector_blakey on March 25, 2010, 14:28:17
Don't want to sound too cynical but I think I'd have more faith in NR's structural engineers' ability to assess the integrity of the sea wall than the local residents'. There was an article in Rail a few months back detailing the extent of the maintenance and inspection the sea wall gets, and as reported this seemed pretty impressive.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Phil on March 25, 2010, 14:46:10
I just phoned my cousin up who is a Dawlish Warren resident (bungalow overlooking the line) and she says she has no idea what this is all about or who the alleged "concerned residents" supposedly are.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: James Vertigan on March 25, 2010, 15:11:45
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p006ysct/Good_Morning_Devon_25_03_2010/

Listen back to the reports - it was mentioned pretty widely in the second hour (7am) - can't seem to find any online articles on it though.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 25, 2010, 15:30:42
From the Teignmouth News and Dawlish Gazette (http://www.dawlishnewspapers.co.uk/tn/News.cfm?id=10342&headline=Beach%20fears%20grow):

Quote
Beach fears grow

The ^100,000 flood defence project at Dawlish Warren beach is set to be completed by the end of this month ^ but Teignbridge Council is so concerned about the situation that the authority is calling for a further ^2.9 million cash injection from the Environment Agency.

Funding for the current works, which were seen as a necessity after recent storms caused beach erosion and damage to gabion and groyne defences, was secured in January.

And Environment Agency spokesman Paul Gainey told the Gazette that the project is near completion, as is work to remove ^dangerous^ metalwork from an old defence scheme.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: inspector_blakey on March 25, 2010, 15:46:35
damage to...groyne defences

Ouch. That sounds painful.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on March 25, 2010, 15:50:02
presumably they are referring to the spit spanningthe estuary which has lost a lot of sand in recent storms


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: James Vertigan on March 25, 2010, 15:57:41
damage to...groyne defences

Ouch. That sounds painful.

Perhaps they need a Box tunnel?  ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 25, 2010, 16:56:16
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8587164.stm):

Quote
Legal action threat over Dawlish Warren sea defences

People living and working in and around a seaside town in Devon are considering taking legal action against the Environment Agency (EA).
Dawlish Warren's tourism group says the agency has failed in its duty to maintain the sea defences. It claims if the sea breaks through it will be catastrophic for the Warren and low-lying Exe estuary villages.
The EA denies the claims, saying it has spent ^100,000 shoring up defences at the Warren.
EA spokesman Martin Davies said the agency was aware of the erosion and it had improved and increased its maintenance regime.
"We recently spent more than ^100,000 repairing groynes [wooden walls] and putting in rock armour because of the erosion," he said. "As part of the shoreline management, we have a policy which says we will hold the line at Dawlish Warren and we have an immediate and ongoing commitment to the site."
Dawlish Warren was a very dynamic site and had an important flood defence role, Mr Davies said. "If Dawlish Warren was breached like it was in the 1940s, it's possible wave height would increase in the estuary, putting residents at risk. If we could not hold the line, we would repair a breach, but longer term it might not be sustainable because of rising sea levels and climate change."
But Simon Broom, who has lived at the Warren all his life, told BBC News the defences are being eroded and are not being properly maintained.
"We need to save this - not just for ourselves, not just for the tourism industry, but for everybody who uses the River Exe and everybody who lives up and down the River Exe," he said.
The EA said it has to consider the long-term strategy for the area before spending millions of pounds on sea defence work.
Last week Teignbridge District Council announced it was bidding for money to ship in sand from the Isle of Wight to replenish the tonnes lost during storms.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on March 25, 2010, 17:33:19
What is suing them going to achieve? Will only mean the EA has less money to spend...  ::)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: signalandtelegraph on March 25, 2010, 18:25:05
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8587164.stm):

Quote
Legal action threat over Dawlish Warren sea defences

People living and working in and around a seaside town in Devon are considering taking legal action against the Environment Agency (EA).
Dawlish Warren's tourism group says the agency has failed in its duty to maintain the sea defences. It claims if the sea breaks through it will be catastrophic for the Warren and low-lying Exe estuary villages.
The EA denies the claims, saying it has spent ^100,000 shoring up defences at the Warren.
EA spokesman Martin Davies said the agency was aware of the erosion and it had improved and increased its maintenance regime.
"We recently spent more than ^100,000 repairing groynes [wooden walls] and putting in rock armour because of the erosion," he said. "As part of the shoreline management, we have a policy which says we will hold the line at Dawlish Warren and we have an immediate and ongoing commitment to the site."
Dawlish Warren was a very dynamic site and had an important flood defence role, Mr Davies said. "If Dawlish Warren was breached like it was in the 1940s, it's possible wave height would increase in the estuary, putting residents at risk. If we could not hold the line, we would repair a breach, but longer term it might not be sustainable because of rising sea levels and climate change."
But Simon Broom, who has lived at the Warren all his life, told BBC News the defences are being eroded and are not being properly maintained.
"We need to save this - not just for ourselves, not just for the tourism industry, but for everybody who uses the River Exe and everybody who lives up and down the River Exe," he said.
The EA said it has to consider the long-term strategy for the area before spending millions of pounds on sea defence work.
Last week Teignbridge District Council announced it was bidding for money to ship in sand from the Isle of Wight to replenish the tonnes lost during storms.

so not the sea wall then  ::)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 25, 2010, 19:45:55
No, apparently not.  ;)

Although it is perhaps another example of the various ongoing problems experienced in many locations along the coast, with rising sea levels, sudden extreme bad weather, and so on.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: John R on March 25, 2010, 20:00:29
I was amused to read today that a 30 year argument between India and Bangladesh over the sovereignty of an obscure tiny island has finally been resolved.... it's disappeared under the sea.  ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on March 25, 2010, 21:27:50
No, apparently not.  ;)

Although it is perhaps another example of the various ongoing problems experienced in many locations along the coast, with rising sea levels, sudden extreme bad weather, and so on.

The erosion of the 'spit' at Dawlish Warren has been gradually eroding for many years. It's a natural process and has been worsened by work to protect the railway in the fact that a breakwater has been constructed at 'Langstone Rock' hence reducing the amount of longshore drift that can occur, hence 'topping up' the levels of sand on the beach. An interesting photo is available here, showing how it has changed over time (http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/jpg-Dawlish-Warren/7DLW-Kidson-map-m.jpg) courtesy of the University of Southampton (more reading: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/Dawlish-Warren.htm)
As nature dictates, due to the prevailing south westerly winds longshore drift means that the railway end of the 'spit' will lose sediment to the Exmouth end.
Anyhows, I probably know too much about it having done my GCSE Geography coursework on it, so I will stop rambling  :D


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 25, 2010, 21:38:12
Don't play down your knowledge, devon_metro!  ;)

I, too, did Geography - and here (http://www.geographyteachingtoday.org.uk/images/text/CGT_Bath_Dawlishenquiry.pdf) is an interesting presentation by Dr Chris Spencer of the University of the West of England, who blames it on ... erm ... I K Brunel, actually!  ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on March 25, 2010, 21:43:35
Would that be a Dr Chris Spencer from Nailsea? or somebody completely unrelated  ;)

And indeed, i've got all of this to look forward to at University  :D


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 25, 2010, 21:51:07
Dr Chris Spencer is unrelated, and indeed unknown, to me - I merely offered his (I assume it's 'his') presentation!  ;)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: JayMac on March 25, 2010, 22:46:02
Interesting picture from the University of Southampton report (http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/Dawlish-Warren.htm)

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/8DLW-Dawlish-Train-Wall.jpg)

A very easy game of 'Where's Izzy' perhaps?


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on March 25, 2010, 23:24:22
This from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8587164.stm
Also this regards the Geological History of the warren may be of interest
http://www.dawlishwarren.co.uk/geohistory.html


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: inspector_blakey on March 26, 2010, 02:53:26
Pfft.

Speaking from first-hand experience, any old clown can get a PhD these days (that's the only possible explanation I can find for mine, anyway).

And either I've had too much to drink (which I admit is possible at the moment) or the perspective in that picture is really messing with me. I had no idea IKB was as tall as an HST.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: JayMac on March 26, 2010, 03:06:54
Well he is often refered to as 'The Little Giant'

 ;) ;D

(either someone has gone to the trouble of Photoshop-ing a shadow for IKB or the picture was humourously modified to superimpose him over a pedestrian to highlight the person responsible for some of the geological consequences affecting the Warren!)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Timmer on March 26, 2010, 05:54:34
I'm sure IKB would have loved HSTs as they really do get the best out of the railway he built.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: chrisoates on March 27, 2010, 21:45:10
Rock armouring vandalised overnight, some very large rocks are in pieces on the pathway between the Warren and the Red Rock Cafe.
Some rocks were dumped trackside but luckily clear of the rails - BTP attended.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: smokey on March 28, 2010, 15:59:16
Odd picture, nothing to do with the Great IKB, but how many UP trains run Wrong line along the sea wall. Only the Up line is Bi-directable.

Well Sure looks like a lack of Tail lights and Two white markers and a head light appear to be lit.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: JayMac on March 28, 2010, 19:07:32
smokey, I initially thought the same thing about the photo - the HST lights do appear to show wrong line running. However, on blowing up the photo it appears that the red light is indeed showing and appears dim because of the sunlight, the same sunlight giving the impression that the headlamps are illuminated. Also on magnification there is no evidence of a driver in the cab.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 28, 2010, 19:22:05
I agree with bignosemac: see the original picture, at http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/jpg-Dawlish-Warren/8DLW-Dawlish-Train-Wall.jpg


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on July 03, 2010, 21:32:43
Rail chiefs have been urged to build an alternative route around the notorious Dawlish main line as part of an investigation into how climate change could disrupt commuter links.

Network Rail has confirmed a comprehensive study of whether at-risk tracks, embankments and bridges can withstand the predicted increase in extreme weather events will include the main Westcountry coast line bordering the sea between Exeter and Newton Abbot.
 http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co.uk/news/Climate-threat-West-rail-link/article-2373354-detail/article.html
An old chestnut I know but one that wont go away.One rail source told the Western Morning News newspaper that any expectations that the review would lead to a re-routing around Dawlish was "wishful thinking".

"I think the chances are zero," the source said. "Plymouth just does not have enough of a population to justify the investment. There was little appetite before the downturn, so there will be even less now.My thoughts exactly."So does that mean if the worst were to happen in the future we could eventually hear this announcment at Exeter,"All change this is Exeter St Davids,change here for bus connections to Plymouth,Torbay and Cornwall".
 Thoughts anyone.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on July 03, 2010, 22:03:26
Non story.

Western Morning News. End. Of.

 :)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 03, 2010, 22:20:50
The story (from a rather less introspective point of view) was also covered in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/01/network-rail-study-climate-change), yesterday:

Quote
Network Rail study to assess impact of climate change

Thousands of miles of railway track to be examined for ability to withstand storms, flooding and heatwaves

Potential safety threats to thousands of miles of railway from extreme storms, floods and heatwaves as the impact of climate change worsens are being investigated by railway engineers and meteorologists.

A study by Network Rail will look at exposed coastal tracks, embankments and thousands of bridges to see whether they can withstand the increase in extreme weather events that climatologists have predicted over coming decades.

The UK-wide investigation will cost ^750,000 but railway executives believe that implementing its expected recommendations could save the industry ^1bn over the next 30 years by improving safety and preventing emergencies.

The climate change adaptation programme, commissioned by the rail industry safety board (RSSB) follows the intense storm that flooded the south coast line bordering the sea at Dawlish in Devon in 2004, and a series of problems with buckled rails during heatwaves.

At Dawlish, the waves breached a sea wall designed to withstand a severe "one in a hundred years" storm. An official investigation predicted that by 2080 these very severe storms could occur as often as once every 14 years, with the incidence of waves breaking over the sea wall increasing by at least 6,000% by then, raising serious doubts about the line's future.

John Dora, Network Rail's principal engineer for climate change, said the review was designed to identify "what we can do in the long term to make the rail network more robust".

The project will look at 150 miles of vulnerable coastal lines. It will study the risk of flooding and landslides for about 9,000 miles of cuttings and embankments alongside lines, and the ability of 4,500 bridges that span rivers and estuaries to withstand floods.

Network Rail engineers believe as many as 10% of those bridges may need strengthening. Much of the rail network is Victorian, and tracks were laid alongside rivers and coasts, and built through cuttings and on earthworks, because early locomotives needed the lowest gradients possible.

The potential threat was underlined by last November's Cumbrian floods, when six road bridges around Cockermouth collapsed ^ in one case, killing a policeman. Last month, 60 train passengers narrowly escaped serious injury after a rock fall derailed a train near Oban, in Scotland.

More intense and frequent heatwaves increase the threat of lines buckling, leading to cancellations and disrupting maintenance schedules, while high winds can affect overhead power lines. Storms also increase the risks of debris blowing on to tracks or damaging power lines.

Industry executives say climate change and rising fuel prices will present the rail network with a paradox: passenger numbers and services are expected to increase sharply as travellers switch from using cars and short-haul flights. Yet, at the same time, the risks of climate-related disruptions are expected to increase.

Network Rail stresses that the UK's rail system is already robust, and has been "future-proofed" to cope with current weather conditions. After an earlier programme to investigate flood risks, the company is spending ^160m on improving drainage systems and has been fitting higher-standard rails able to cope with warmer temperatures.

The new review will involve designing modelling tools with the Met Office to predict what severe weather events might take place and which lines are most at risk. New flood maps will be produced using laser-based technology.

Dora said Network Rail had been re-examining all its embankments and slopes since 2000, adding that it was difficult to predict how much the extra remedial work might cost until the review was completed. The final report is expected in February or March next year.

"Erosion around the coast is a problem, sea level rise is a problem and increased storminess with waves crashing over the coast can be a problem. With many things like that there are technical, engineering solutions that can be put in place which can mitigate against them," he said.

"The railway is very good at learning from history and very good at prioritising, and with the technology out there just now in research, and looking at innovation, I personally see the railway becoming very smart at targeting its activity at these high-risk areas."


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Super Guard on July 03, 2010, 23:47:20
[JovialPostModeOn]

Surely we could have all those ASW planes that are shortly going to be available to fly EXD-NTA ?  There's a nice straight bit of track out of Exeter City Basin towards Starcross and one on the approach to NTA for runways...

Who said ASW was not FGW's friend?

[JPMOff]
 ;D



Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on November 12, 2010, 08:18:56
MINISTERS have been urged to continue investment in a stretch of rail track on the South Devon coast as it provides a 'lifeline' for the community providing jobs and transport.

Tory MP for Teignbridge Anne Marie Morris pressed the case for the maintenance of the track between Exeter and Plymouth, which runs through Starcross, Dawlish, Teignmouth and Newton Abbot.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/regionalnews/continued-investment-railway-track-lifeline/article-2827914-detail/article.html


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: inspector_blakey on November 12, 2010, 18:45:44
WHY the shouting?  ???


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: JayMac on November 12, 2010, 19:30:58
I guess because the Plymouth Herald 'shouted' "MINISTERS" as well. Cut and paste job I expect.  ;)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: chrisoates on November 12, 2010, 21:04:05
There's a lot of work going on down there now - Dawlish to Red Rock is having a protective fence installed on the cliff side.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on November 12, 2010, 22:15:23
Government won't rule out inland rail line
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Government-won-t-rule-inland-rail-line/article-2881650-detail/article.html


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on January 28, 2011, 16:50:36
Sea defences will keep the Dawlish to Teignmouth railway line viable according to the Environment Minister.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-12306539


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 29, 2011, 00:51:44
[JovialPostMode]
Is this minister from Mr Canute's cabinet?
[/JovialPostMode]


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Umberleigh on January 31, 2011, 20:07:55
IF the private finance Tavistock reopening goes ahead, then I believe the case for the Okehampton route would be very much stronger in years to come.

However, cutting the likes of Torbay, Totnes, Newton Abbot et al off from the rail network would be hugely controversial, especially as during the busy summer months the sea is rarely, if ever, a problem. Thus, I can't help but feel that money will continue to be thrown at the problem for years to come...

That said, the economic situation could be very different in 20 years time and there may well be an appetite for investing in a diversionary route via Okehampton. One interesting scenario is that what happens if PAD - PLY is given funding for electrification at some date in the future? Can't imagine that the catenary would enjoy salt water! Perhaps this - arguably unlikely - upgrade to the GWML might perhaps see the Southern have the last laugh in Devon...


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on November 21, 2011, 00:34:58
An article in one of latest railway magazines(cant remember which one) says that Network Rail have looked at the feasiblity of rebuilding the seawall at Dawlish and report that its affordable adding that its something Network Rail plan to design post 2014 and rebuild in control period 6 (post 2019).They also say the spit of land on which Dawlish Warren station stands could eventually disappear with climate change so they together with the enviroonment Agency and local authorities are looking for a long term sustainable solution to the issue.
 


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Tim on November 21, 2011, 09:19:37
NR make the very true point that if there wasn't a railway on that coast you would still need to strengthen the sea wall because of the buildings behind it.  These gran schemes for re-routing the line would not be good for the locals.  Not only would they loose the railway's train service they would loose the railway's sea-defense services too.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on November 21, 2011, 09:49:36
Interestingly Brunels original plan to skirt the coast at Dawlish envisiged an offshore railway built on piers skirting around the headlands rather than through them in tunnels but the admiralty objected so hence the present route which had to cross over the "lawn" at Dawlish much to the annoyance of locals at the time.Given established rail travel patterns in Devon and of course cost considerations it is probably the most realistic solution to the effects of climate change at this most exposed of locations.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 15, 2012, 09:35:13
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-20318502):

Quote
Dredging plan to replace Dawlish Warren's shifting sands

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/64130000/jpg/_64130444_64130443.jpg)
Dawlish Warren's beach is estimated to have lost 2m in height in about 10 years

Thousands of tonnes of sand could be moved from one east Devon town to another as part of a plan to shore up flood defences and restore a beach.

Dawlish Warren had lost about 100,000 tonnes of sand over 15 years, with most of it ending up at Pole Sands, near Exmouth, the Environment Agency said.

The agency and Teignbridge Council are considering dredging and bringing sand back along the River Exe to Dawlish. The project could go ahead in the next three to four years, they said.

Tides and currents have been sucking the sand off the beach and moving it eastwards on to the sand bar in the estuary off Exmouth.

Martin Davies, from the agency, said the "dramatic loss of sand" had meant the Dawlish beach had dropped by about 2m (6ft) over the last decade.

As well as the possible damage to tourism, the agency and council said they were concerned it was affecting local flood defences, as the Warren helps protect nearby villages and the main railway line behind the beach.

Neil Baglow, from Teignbridge District Council, said the project - which could cost up to ^7m - would be quite simple. He said: "We'd have a massive dredger that would suck up the sand, and then and come and spray it back on to the beach."

However, concerns have been raised such dredging could leave Exmouth, on the other side of the estuary, vulnerable to flooding.

Exmouth councillor Eileen Wrag said: "Pole Sands protects Exmouth. It could leave Exmouth vulnerable from inundation from the sea."

Mr Davies said this would not be the case: "There are rigorous licensing procedures. Before the project goes ahead, there has to be a guarantee that that won't happen."

Discussions are ongoing into the initial project.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on November 15, 2012, 11:18:10
Humans have caused the problem. Sea defences around Langstone rock disrupt the longshore drift that occurs due to the prevailing current directions, meaning there is limited delivery of sand to the beach spanning the estuary. The currents still remove sand from the beach however. Fighting a losing battle!


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Nottage_Halt on December 01, 2012, 11:59:30
Picture of latest progress on repairs ...

http://www.railway-centre.com/november-2012.html

Go to picture for 30 November 2012

Nick


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Nibat on December 01, 2012, 16:59:53
One of my colleagues, now retired, always said that the 'new line' would never happen as NR o some other organization would still have to mantain the sea wall...

Operationally too would be useless, as apart from missing the towns already mentioned, it would add having to reverse at Exeter and Plymouth.  And that in my opinion would play against those who always complain about Plymouth and Cornwall not having good rail links because it would increase the journey times considerably, and those arguing for both things seem to be mainly the same people.

If any diversionary route should be considered in my opinion is the one from Exeter to Newton Abbot via Hethfield, or some kind of variation along the same route.  This wouldn't involve reversing and would only miss Dawlish and Teignmouth as main population areas.

The prblem: as said before, somebody would have to pay to maintain the sea wall, but without the trains running to generate some revenue.  If the wall goes, Dawlish goes with it!


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: paul7575 on December 01, 2012, 17:19:12
One of my colleagues, now retired, always said that the 'new line' would never happen as NR o some other organization would still have to mantain the sea wall...

NR also confirmed that they have responsibility to maintain the sea wall 'in perpetuity' in something I read online within the last year or so.

Paul


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Umberleigh on December 04, 2012, 12:35:57
Would it be necessary to abandon the sea wall route if a diversion from Exeter to Newton Abbot (via a Haldon tunnel) were built?

Teignmouth, Dawlish x 2 and Starcross seem to generate enough passengers to retain a local stopping service, and also accommodate freight, engineering trains etc that would slow up express services on the new route.



Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: JayMac on December 04, 2012, 21:22:24
Teignmouth, Dawlish x 2 and Starcross seem to generate enough passengers to retain a local stopping service, and also accommodate freight, engineering trains etc that would slow up express services on the new route.

And you could still have long distance services to/from Paignton go via the sea-wall. With inland EXD-NTA services mostly for Plymouth/Penzance.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: The Grecian on December 04, 2012, 22:06:02
As I've posted before, there's almost zero chance of the Teign Valley line reopening as:
a) It was a single track branch line built on a low budget and the infrastructure - including two tunnels, one nearly half a mile long, reflects that;
b) It would barely generate any local traffic when not used for diversions - it closed in 1958, 5 years before Beeching, due to lack of use;
c) The half mile tunnel at Perridge has collapsed and the BRB have permission to infill it, though they haven't yet.

Given that it wouldn't be suitable for fast running and would require major work just to restore a single track tunnel, I can't see it. Given the lack of political will to do anything about the slow speeds west of Newton Abbot it hardly seems a viable solution as diverted trains would probably take longer than a rail replacement bus. Any inland route would really have to be a new one. If the old GWR plan of the 1930s was viable it would seem the best bet to take advantage of the fast running along the Exe and the Teign.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: broadgage on December 05, 2012, 12:37:00
As others post, building/reopening an inland rail route wont remove the need to maintain the sea wall at Dawlish.

It would seem to me that even substantial improvements to the sea defences would be cheaper than a new rail route.
On the seaward side of the wall, large rocks or boulders should be dumped in order to break up the force of the waves, this is established technology and the rocks last a long time, though they are eventually erroded or broken up by wave action.

It might also be possible to slightly raise the track, in order to partialy compensate for rising sea levels.

In some cases vulnerable bits of coastline should be allowed to errode, we cant save it all ! but NOT at Dawlish on account of the importance of the rail route.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Tim on December 05, 2012, 14:28:02
IF the route was abandoned, what would happen to the buildings which are currently protected by the railway?

Presumably the old railway formation would still have to be maintained against the sea in order to protect the properties behind.

The only change would be that the cost of the sea defences would shift from NR to the Environment Agency.

Therefore to my mind closing the railway doesn't make much sense - unless the space taken up by the tracks ends up being needed for raising the height of the sea wall.   


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: swrural on December 05, 2012, 15:28:37
AIUI it is the cliff behind that is crumbling all the time and not the sea wall.  I believe that is why NR is sanguine (no, better than that, technically confident) that the sea wall route is capable of maintenance.

That takes nothing from the strategic case for an inland route which I am sure the Okehampton route justifies.

Both that route and the GWR converge at Cowley and to my mind, it is the Exe valley that is the headache.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: grahame on December 05, 2012, 16:09:41
Both that route and the GWR converge at Cowley and to my mind, it is the Exe valley that is the headache.

To relieve the "single point of failure" problem / getting trains to Plymouth, you could:

1. Complete the triangle from Exeter Central to St Thomas (a line that passes under St David's Hill / Iron Bridge, over Bonhay Road near the weirs, over the flood channel and down to join the current line where it crossed Okehampton Road / Okehampton Street.

2. Reopen from Okehampton to Tavistock / Bere Alston.

You then have two independent routes from London to Plymouth .. (a) Waterloo, Central, St. Thomas, Totnes, Plymouth and (b) Paddington, St. Davids (reverse) and Meldon to Plymouth.   Which is better that it every was in the past - as far as I can tell, the only way ever to avoid Cowley Bridge was from London via Taunton, Barnstaple Town, Barnstaple Junction, Meeth and Halwill!


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: TerminalJunkie on December 05, 2012, 16:43:13
[...] via Taunton, Barnstaple Town, Barnstaple Junction, Meeth [...]

ITYM Barnstaple Victoria Road, not Barnstaple Town.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: grahame on December 05, 2012, 16:58:43
[...] via Taunton, Barnstaple Town, Barnstaple Junction, Meeth [...]

ITYM Barnstaple Victoria Road, not Barnstaple Town.

I think I do.  Thanks!


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: swrural on December 05, 2012, 17:38:51
The area around Norton F was well under water recently (Tone Valley).  The sea is one thing, the rivers are another.  Long term, we need stilts.  Seriously, the report, (Stern I think) did point all this out.

Taking Graham's points, I believe a flyover at Cowley Jcn allowing SR diversions to avoid the flooding there is feasible (not sure what to do about the GW to Tiverton though).  Thus the diversion route via Honiton and then pressing on through Okehampton seems a goer, likewise his chord to St Thomas, if the sea is OK but the river not. My impression is that re-dualling Exeter to Castle Cary via Yeovil Jcn has become a strategic no-brainer.  I do point out that the Axe Valley is a huge problem too, for the same reason as that the Culm and Exe valleys are.

My problem with the franchise set up is that Strategy is not within their remit, is it?  ('Priced Options' - what on earth is that all about strategically?).  As far as NR is concerned, 'Business Case'???, we are talking strategy for survival here, not business cases.   ;D


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Southernman on December 05, 2012, 23:33:12
Not entirely sure why people have such hang-ups regarding reversals. The use of units (of one sort or another) is standard fare and the extra time taken in reversing a train is not great. Excursions, Sleeper trains and Freight are obvious exceptions. Exeter St Davids has interchange facilities whereas Central would require significant upgrading if the former station was to be omitted in a regular calling pattern.

The Axe Valley itself does flood but in the past has tended not to disrupt the railway often. Hopefully the recent works around Broom Crossing will prevent a repeat of the washouts. There have been plenty of landslips however.

Maybe the railway around Cowley Bridge will have to be raised above/around the flood plain if repeated problems occur! And yes, reopen via Okehampton as it is only a matter of time before the seawall is blocked big time.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: grahame on December 06, 2012, 06:24:37
Not entirely sure why people have such hang-ups regarding reversals.

If you're looking at my "chord" suggestion, that was to remove a single point of failure (St David's Station) rather than to remove a reversal I agree that - interchange wise - it's sensible to have a single station.  Just look at how man cross-London transfers would be avoided if lines into Paddington, Euston,  St Pancras, King's Cross, Liverpool Street, Charing Cross, Victoria and Waterloo had all been extended into Holborn Kingsway, renamed "London Central".


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Bob_Blakey on December 06, 2012, 07:20:42
The railway at Cowley Bridge Junction (CBJ) is already above flood plain level. During the recent deluge the line between CBJ and Stoke Canon (SC) remained above water at all times. I personally believe that the problem is caused by a combination of factors: The A377 embankment which traverses the Exe / Creedy flood plain at this point restricts drainage. The railway line between SC & CBJ crosses the flood plain from north to south and during flooding forces water to the south of the line because of the lack of culverts/bridges-when the water reaches CBJ it has nowhere else to go but over the line because the spillway under the railway is not big enough. This can be permanently sorted out but do the powers-that-be want to spend 'loadsofmoney' on an event that is seriously disruptive but very rare?


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: Tim on December 06, 2012, 09:41:40
AIUI it is the cliff behind that is crumbling all the time and not the sea wall.  I believe that is why NR is sanguine (no, better than that, technically confident) that the sea wall route is capable of maintenance.


I hadn't appreciated that, thanks.  Your quote has of course been supported by the recent landslips.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: woody on December 07, 2012, 09:38:37
Regarding the recent landslips at Teignmouth,I noticed yesterday as I passed on the up line at 20mph that their seems to be a great deal of muddy water still coming out of the cliff face where the main landslip occured.Indeed the entire track bed ballast is still waterlogged/partly submerged at that point as a result of the still large volumes of red muddy water running out of the cliff face which can be clearly seen finding it way into the sea at high tide from underneath the sea wall/track formation.It looks to me as if a spring has been opened in the cliff face following the landslips as most of the rest of the cliff face is largely dry now.As a result the whole cliff face as that point looks very waterlogged and unstable despite the removal of 1500 tons of material and I am therefore somewhat surprised that trains are being allowed to run by at this point.
  I would welcome some professional input on this one because to my amateur eye it genuinely still looks very dodgy there for trains to pass by.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: swrural on December 07, 2012, 10:54:01
I haven't got professional info I am afraid, but perhaps personal knowledge may be helpful.  I live further along the coast where the landslips are very prevalent, namely the blue lias cliffs from Seaton to Bridport Harbour.

What happens is that the current heavy rain saturates the ground.  Then we get real winter in Jan /Feb that freezes the water within the natural fissures of the rock.  When spring arrives, the water expands and then a landslide results.  This of course is aided by the fact that there are cliffs.  If the land ceases to be a cliff and settles to a gentle slope, then the process continues, but with much less effect and you get (what we indeed see inland) a succession of 'folds' that over the centuries constantly constantly alter the shape of the land.

Golden Cap near Bridport is the highest cliff in England but it won't be forever.  It'll all go one day.

I imagine the sandstone cliffs at Dawlish are as vulnerable as the above description but it's more of a 'crumble' than the 'mudslides' we get further along.

I am sure a geologist could have done better but I hope this helps.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: TerminalJunkie on December 07, 2012, 11:03:33
Golden Cap near Bridport is the highest cliff in England [...]

Er, no it isn't - it's only 191m at the summit. The cliff face at Great Hangman is 244m.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: devon_metro on December 07, 2012, 12:05:07
Sandstone is a porous rock so will naturally be more unstable when saturated with water.

swrural you refer to a process known as 'freeze-thaw weathering' where rocks are weakened when ice expands in cracks/joints. You find this in harder rocks e.g. the granite tors on Dartmoor, i suspect the landslides along the seawall are merely as a results of the softer sandstone failing where water is at higher concentrations as the individual sand grains are less consolidated.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: macbrains on December 07, 2012, 13:42:06
Golden Cap near Bridport is the highest cliff in England [...]

Er, no it isn't - it's only 191m at the summit. The cliff face at Great Hangman is 244m.

I suspect swrural may have meant that Golden Cap is the highest point on the south coast

rgds
macbrains


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: swrural on December 07, 2012, 13:48:32
Yes I did - I'm sorry, it was sloppy.


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: bobm on March 31, 2013, 14:03:28
The seawall has taken a battering over the last few days with strong winds coupled with high tides.  However I am not aware of any major disruption although there are quite a few 143s running round with salt caked windows on one side.

This was the scene near Teignmouth at 11am on Easter Day.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/tgm3103a.jpg)


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 31, 2013, 16:31:29
....huh that's just a little splash.  Try this for size ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CGBFTQ8UwVk and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=wEPEfNQO3nY&NR=1 or even better this: http://www.railart.co.uk/gallery/austin5.shtml


Title: Re: Dawlish and Dawlish Warren sea defences - ongoing concerns and issues discussion
Post by: The SprinterMeister on April 19, 2013, 17:36:29
The seawall has taken a battering over the last few days with strong winds coupled with high tides.  However I am not aware of any major disruption although there are quite a few 143s running round with salt caked windows on one side.

This was the scene near Teignmouth at 11am on Easter Day.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/tgm3103a.jpg)

They have had problems with the Seawall down by Colonade Viaduct and the Ice cream hut last week. Was 5mph on the down but now normal speed again. Much work including putting some more concrete round the walkway / ice cream hut / breakwater...



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