Great Western Coffee Shop

I'm not actually from the south west, although I have used trains in the South West previously.  It's my impression that while First Great Western are not providing even a medium quality services, that First Great Western customers have misconceptions about rail services elsewhere in the country.

I came across a news report from a local ITV news regarding 142 Pacers used by First Great Western on You Tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0G2BK04vsw&feature=related and was actually quite surprised by the report.

I understand that the trains used in the area have been downgraded, which will cause passenger dissatisfaction.  I live in the North West and the trains now used on my local line under Northern Rail are of a lower quality than under previous operator First North Western.  (My local line for which the journey time is 80-90 minutes was mainly a mixture of 142s and 150s with some 158s and 175s.  Although it now almost all 142s with a few 150s and 156s.  Although, there are more trains running to time and less cancelations.)

However, the two services which the cameras were on were very empty compared to the 142s used by Northern Rail, where most off-peak trains have less than 30 empty seats and most peak trains have over the recommended standing capacity.

I've never heard any claims of motion sickness on the 142s since they've been brought in to operation in 1984.  Although, I've heard reports of people collapsing on overcrowded 142s.

There seems to be a common misconception that Northern Rail received 10 158 Sprinters from First Great Western.  This is not the case.  A couple of former Central Trains units had been leased to Northern Rail and then sub-leased to First Great Western under the DFT instructions.  These have been returned to Northern Rail.  However, the remaining 158s that FGW lost were divided between First Scotrail and East Midlands Trains.

There also seems to be a misconception about how much people think the DFT are investing in to rail in the north of England.  30 158s were received by Northern Rail but these are only for operation in the Leeds area and many overcrowded trains remain all across the north.  The 3 car 185s that Transpennine Express recieved are actually smaller than the 3 car 158s that ran some TPE express services previously (but are larger than the 2 car 175s and 2 car 158s.)  Projected passenger numbers will mean that these 185s will not be able to seat 50% of passengers wishing to travel on those services by 2014.

However, I would hope that your franchise gets a new operator soon and the DFT stop investing so much in London and start investing elsewhere.

The daytime Barnstaple line services are never busy, Just wait will the summer holidays. I'm not sure the pacers will cope with the extra passengers as they are already busy, even when in 4 car formation. At least FGW are investing some money to refurb the FGW pacers. More than can be said for Northern!

The problem with Dft/NR is that like other organisations, they like to invest in big expensive projects with positive PR. For example West Coast Main Line, continual refurbishments of Birmingham New Street, electrification of Lines etc.

Unfortunately, whilst this happens hundreds of small jobs that benefit most passengers are ignored, underfunded or cancelled. For example general maintenance and upgrades of signal and track on the GWML/SWL.

No one can deny that through out the country significant rail investment is needed, but until very recently and despite the large franchise payments from FGW, very little money has been invested in the West Country. Old and insufficient rolling stock, poor track and signalling systems, lack of capacity at Reading Station, Box Tunnel and Severn Tunnel all cause major problems.

Any gripes mentioned here relative to other areas of the country relate to the very poor experience we have of FGW, NR and Dft. Things are at last getting better, but to be honest FGW, NR and DfT have a very long way to go before we have a decent service that justifies the high prices we pay.

... and, rather belatedly, northwesterntrains, welcome to the coffee shop forum!

Chris  :)

I certainly don't, things are just starting to get better..excusing last couple days which were a bit out of FGW's control.

Your post although informative regarding rolling stock, the last comment is un-justified. Granted the service has been poor, but in recent months there has been obvious improvement.

So keep FGW.

And I ain't just saying this because I work for them, taking the franchise away will do more harm than good.

Positively the last thing we want at the moment is a change of franchisee. FGW are working damned hard to turn things around and deserve some thanks and encouragement. All a change of franchisee would bring is more upheaval and uncertainty.

As to the 142s whilst they are hardly 21st century transport I would rather have a four car pacer than a single car dogbox. On decent track they don't ride that bad are are currenly pretty reliable thanks to some stirling work by the staff at Exeter depot.

TJ

Morning

Yes, I remember when it was on one of our local news,
the report was full of errors to fact that it acually
got my goat a little bit!  I don't know what footage
from which broardcaster is shown on "You Tube", as I
can't get to load on my Internet TV.

I wish if they are going to slate FGW about the c142's
coming down here, they would get some of there facts
right.  They said in their report that the c142's
were 30 years old.  Really, how come they are 30
years old if they were only built in 1985/6?  If
they are 30 years old then they would of been built
around 1978!

Why don't TV researchers find out first!

Regards

Karl.

I hate to speculate, but his entire post reads like someone at customer relations at northern  ::)

Welcome anyway!

As possibly the person that stated 142s are the only train that I've ever felt any form of motion sickeness. Perhaps I should clarify it was in the late 80s on the fast stretch between Perranwell and Truro on the Falmouth branch. The train seemed to set up a rythmic bounce which made me glad to get off it at Truro.

The only other time I've been on a 14X is between Grindleford and Hope on the line of the same name and although it's not a comfortable ride I didn't experience any form of motion sickness.

So it must have been the combination of track condition and speed the first time.

However, good as they were as saviours of several lines when first they came out, they are now well past their sell by date. In fact you could say they have been victim of their own success in saving some train services which are now thriving and have outgrown the 14Xs.  But the "bean counters" still want to get everylast passenger mile out of them before they go to rolling stock Navarna.

Yes it was that report. 

I was surprised that they found no complaints about squeezing on corners, it's common on most lines where they operate across the, country even though the only lines where sharp corners have caused excessive wear on the wheels is in Cornwall.  Although the Cornish people are lucky that happened pre-privatisation.  The same thing has happened with 507 and 508s in the Merseyside area, which resulted in major modifications to the 507/8s and many cancellations while that happened, rather than a switch of units.  Although I accept there's a lot more DMUs around than EMUs running on a third rail.

Pacers weren't really seen as saviours on most routes they started on in the North as these were popular commuter routes in the Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool and Newcastle.  These routes would hardly have been axed but did need replacement trains for older units such as 101s.  However, 150s would have been better.

Northern Rail did order a large number of replacements for the 142s but the order was blocked by the DfT as they were due to be built in China (to save on costs.)  DfT said any new trains had to be built in the EU, but preferbly in the UK.  If the order had gone through then it would be likely that the 30 158s that went to Northern would have gone elsewhere, probably meaning that there would have been enough Sprinter unitss around for the 142s to have stayed in storage and not gone to First Great Western

Not wishing to doubt you, but did they really place an order?

 I seem to remeber them (Northern) flying a kite about what might be available from China, but actually placing an order is a lengthy process that would have taken months.
I dare say parties of Chinese engineers would have been visible at Newton Heath running rulers over the existing rolling stock.

It is interesting to note by way of contrast that Hitachi were seen around the UK railway for a couple of years before an order was announced.

I'll second all of Ollie's comments.

I haven't been with FGW for that long, but from speaking to my colleagues, things were pretty dire, but have improved and at last we are moving in the right direction.  And I have to say, i'm a pretty happy SDA, considering I have to deal with you miserable lot every day (kidding)  ;D

Daytime ones are Quieeeet, but you'll find the last couple out of EXD are rammed - always quite amusing when peeps look at a 142 and ask, "Is that it?"  ::) ;D

The summer could be quite interesting to Exmouth/Barny/Paignton.  Summer Saturdays have proved already that the 142s are filling up fast, although you have XC running Paignton too.

A 142 was used for the 2145 EXD-BTM last Friday evening, instead of the usual 150/153, and it was a pretty smooth ride to be honest.

Pacers always did ride quite well on long-welded rail, it's the jointed stuff they struggle with - and they're not alone - I can remember some distinctly dodgy riding by Adelantes when they started to work the Cotswold Line on a regular basis in late 2004, especially on the few remaining bits of bullhead rail. Someone, somewhere did appear to take the suspension in hand though and the surviving 180s are much smoother, though that may also have something to do with that bullhead rail being replaced in the past couple of years as well.

How many passengers do you generally get on the daytime Barnstaple line trains, and where are they travelling to/coming from?

They are usually quite busy through to EXD from Exmouth, but then you could probably live with putting 1 coach on with room to spare from EXD onwards.  Different story at other times (the last one out of EXD last night was full and standing with bikes too), so I think at the moment the set structure/schedule is just about right, even though it would seem to be a bit inconvenient for customers in terms of timings.  Summer Saturdays could be interesting though come some nice weather.

Rumour has it that Barny is to go hourly.

It's not a rumour anymore...(http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/2bounce.gif)

most weekend trains seem too busy for 1 coach, not sure about weekdays.

NO NO NO! >:( Definitely at least 2 coaches required on Barny services for all of the timetable. It only takes a few families with copius luggage at Barnstaple, plus the normal 4 bikes, and you are stuffed with a 153. I know this because I have worked what used to be the 1040 off of Barnstaple with a 153, and in the above scenario it is a nightmare( at any time of the year )

I'm curious as to where FGW are finding 2/3 units in order to have an hourly service to BNP. Hopefully they aren't stripping capacity from Paignton. Next step - half hourly Exeter - Paignton  :D

When will this happen?

They're filling in two gaps - from Barnstaple at 1140 and 1340-ish - using units that otherwise sit doing nothing between the peaks.

15th December 2008.

Oh.

Less (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/2bounce.gif) for those in Devon, then, next year?

 ::)

I was only talking from what i'd seen myself, I am sure if FGW could get away with 1 carriages they'd do it, so the fact they keep it at 2 tells me they have the need for it.

getting back on topic a bit ....have recently spent time on  142s of ATW and FGW parentage and i must say the refresh undertaken by Exeter Depot is really good indeed, they are clean tidy and look very smart more than can be said for the ATW version i was on recently, think there are some photos on here somewhere?? personally i find the bus seats quite comfortable and you can sling your arm over the back sit sideways and easily have a pleasant chat with the folk behind ideal if you are with a big group.
All in all a good effort for what is essentially a 20 yr old bus

On the subject of Pacers, I spotted one on Reading depot last Saturday.Anyone know what it was doing there?

Probably a transmission change, 142s have visited Reading at the weekends for similar work recently.

First Great Western are sending 5 142s back to Northern Rail by the December timetable change.  However, they are expected to keep the rest as well as obtaining 6 150s from London Overground and 10+ from London Midland when new 172s are delievered to those franchise operators.

Ah yes, 5 142s which I suspect Northern Rail won't have any use for ...

It's expected that London Overground will want the 2 150/1s back at some point to enhance the GOBLIN service - and then will hand them all over at the time of delivery of 172s.

Personally, I think a deal will be struck to keep the 142s, think FGW have refurb'd them anyway and the capacity is NEEDED down here. We've already had out decent stock sent to Northern so why should the NEEDED stock go back up there?

Your 158s went to First Scotrail and East Midlands Trains not to Northern.  Northerns 158s are all former TP Express, Central Trains, First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern units. (No fomer Wessex Trains units) Although a couple of 158s that FGW borrowed off Northern Rail (in Central Trains livery) were returned.

Northern Rail still have 68 142s that mostly run in single combination and are too small for almost every service they run. (even a large number of off-peak trains.)

One point - you say they are too short for single combination runs on a majority of services.

Second point - I think it's highly likely when the 142s return up north we'll see a high number of cancellations of our services. Now, would you rather have the 142s back and be blamed for a large number of cancellations in the south west, or just put up with the low capacity on a lot of trains until FGW are ready to hand them back?

How many of the Class 142 units currently in FGW's possession have been refurbished by them?

I'd say about 9/10

First point.  See page the bottom of page 4 of http://www.mcrua.org.uk/draft_rus_response.pdf for passenger numbers of what's described as one of the least crowded routes in the North West area, where the majority of services are 2 car 142s.

Second point.  I was trying to illustate that you would get more trains as you would lose 5 142s but get a lot more than 5 150s to replace them.  It's likely the 150s you'll get will have 3+2 seating, rather than the 2+2 that Wessex Trains used.

I thought FGW had 12.

Apart from the fact that the deficit of units while we await for the 150s to arrive - which won't happen in December... maybe another 2 years? So what should be done in the mean time? Transport people on magical carpets?

I don't have any evidence that Northern will get the 5 142s in December.  I just thought that it would be before the December 2008 timetable change as Northern Rail are expected to run extra trains on a few lines from December, but are only allowed to cut the service on one short line.  It may be that Northern won't get extra trains in time and will have to have all their trains in service and turn trains around in under 5 minutes, as First North Western were required to do a few years ago.

It's fairly well known that the 142s will return to Northern when the FGW refurb programme is complete.

Surely though losing all of those 142s at the end of the year once the refurb is complete will be a disaster!  There arent that many units currently being refurbished! 

Which "short line" are you reffering to?

Manchester Victoria to Oldham, which will get a reduced service as work commences to convert it to light rail.

There's an unverified rumour going around that FGW will keep 7 142s even after they get the 150s from London Overground and London Midland, hence why FGW are refurbishing them.

What this post shows is how short FGW is of suitable stock to run its current timetable let alone more or longer trains.

Perhaps the forum should take all these complaints about particualr uniti and the way they are shuffled around robbing Peter to pay Paul and say.

"We want more units there aren't enough in the country so we must have new builds and lots of them and sooner than the DfT says." Whilst beating Lord Harrris over the head with the order form.

The trouble is that having closed most of the carriage works in the UK and the continental ones working flat out to meet their own needs it would probably be 2 years before we saw anything new.

So meanwhile FGW passengers crowd into unsuitble short trains.

DfT concentrate too much on commuter routes in London and long distance London services. 

From December Virgin will run 30-33 carriages per hour in the off-peak periods between Manchester and London when the current 20 carriages per hour aren't full to maximum capacity.  Yet Dft won't let First TransPennine Express have extra carriages for 185s, which they desperatly need.

You should also point out that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul ^1 for each hour of his work.

7 refurbished units, the other five have not been touched as they are the ones going back in December. Indeed the other day Northern Rail had to give approval to fit a new cab fan in one of them. ::)

Last winter FGW had 7 142 diagrams from 12 units, over the summer it has risen to 8 from the same 12 (although 142 001 is now servicable).
I heard a whisper that from december it will be 5 142 diagrams from 7 units. The other 2  diagrams will be covered by 150's  :D (hooray) These 150's will be available because the refurb process will be over by then.

Much fewer 4 car units then  :(

Probably unrelated to this thread but just going to throw it in here for the sake of it - class 143s will be refurbished at St Blazey.

It's either 'many fewer' or 'much less'.
At least you were right to use 'fewer', so I'll only deduct five marks (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/GNgrave.gif)

Morning

Doubtful, St. Blazey is a "EWS DB Shenker" freight
depot so I wouldn't of thought so, plus there was a
bust up between them and "Wessex" a while back which
I would of thought wouldn't help matters.

Karl.

Does it look like I care?

Northern Rail decided on the length of the carriages (longer than 142s or 150s), that they would have 2+2 seating and that there would be a mixture of 2 and 3 car units built.  The DfT made it clear that trains for use in Britain can not be built outside the EU, so blocked the proposals.  I don't know exactly what stage the order was at when DfT blocked the proposals. 

It was assumed at this stage that Northern Rail could get the majority of the 158s released from TP Express (when the 185s were released) and some from Central Trains (when the 350s were put on the Liverpool to Birmingham route, displacing some 170s, which in turn would have released 158s) meaning that most 142s would have been out of use by 2006, which obviously didn't happen.  Part of the problem was the order of 185s being reduced meaning a number of 158s had to go to South West Trains in exchange for 170s.  (170s were deemed better for the Manchester to Hull route than 158s or 185s due to weight problems on the line.)

So in 2004 the order being cut didn't seem too significant as it was assumed that around 50 142s would be removed from service by 2007, not 12 which would later be put back in to service with First Great Western.

I don't really care whether or not you care. The point is that I care.

You forget that SWT think 170s are sh*te... which is why we so happily got rid of them for some 158s! ;)

  ??? Er.. No. 4 car formations are not thrown out randomly on the basis of spare units kicking around at Exeter. They each have a unit diagram.

There were 7 142 unit diagrams last winter and there will be 5 this winter, plus 2 additional diagrams from other sprinter types. So exactly the same amount of booked pared units.
What you may notice is the 142 + 153 combination being common on peak trains.

 I think The pacer trains are ok. I just think they should refurbish them with inter-city type seats like on the Welsh Valley class 142s and the bristol based Class 143s. They should of done that before they entered
Service down hear they would of had less complaints then. However been from Lapford up to Barnstaple  today Sunday 13th July 2008  on A Train which was a refurbished Class 153 sprinter coupled with a Class 142 pacer. That was the 14:30 from Lapford not sure what time it left Exeter but got to Barny at 15:11 and the same formation coming back the same day at 19:15 from Barny. It was brilliant at least making train travel interesting if nothing else. Didn't catch from train numbers but I think the class 142 was 142070

Hello, tarkaline, and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

;D :P

Ermmmm No they won't! Where did that nugget of information come from?

No, they are keeping 7 142's until the 150's become available. The game plan always was 12x 142's until 31-10-2008 and then 7x 142's until the 150's become available. The 5 going back should be replaced by the 5 15x that are stopped for refurbishment at any given point in time. 153 units are now all done. Still some 150/2's and 158's to go.

The 150's are being replaced by 172's for which the order has been signed but as yet they are not in production. Hence the greater amount of internal refresh given to the 7 142's that will be staying on post October this year.

It appears the EX based 142's have exceeded 5000mpc making them one of the most reliable Pacer fleets in the country.

The SprinterMeister, welcome and thanks for the info!  Do you have any idea when the 172s will go into production and how long the 142s will be kept for past October?

The 172s will be delivered to LM by mid/late 2010.

In the meantime, I am not sure whether LM are going to refurb the 150s as a stock gap. They have yet to apply their logo to the 150s (although all mention of "Central Trains" was obliterated within days!)!

If LM decide not to, they will be in a dreadful state - they are bad enough now. It is clear that they rarely get proper maintenance.

Has it been confirmed that FGW will get the 150s?

That was the plan last I heard. Depends I guess on the machinations of the DFT and how long it actually takes to deliver the 172's.

On inspection of proposed 2008 timetables Northern estimate they will need 20 extra units to be able to cope with increased demands and less paths for local trains caused by more Intercity trains.  They currently don't have any units in storage (those were the 142s that went to FGW.)

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/vwc-Northern_red_030608.pdf

Why have the DfT approved the Virgin timetable when it affects commuters so much?

Coventry-B'ham services will be axed to make room- as will Stockport to Manchester, when they are already packed.

Relibility will also go down.

And I would like to know where Virgin are finding the stock to increase both B'ham and M'chester to 3tph (when Vomiters are used on West Midlands to Scotland services)!!!

"Vehicles" reads coaches to me, so they only need 10 more units.

Virgin don't need to find the stock, they have the stock. It's called Pendolinos.

Oh, and 10 minute turnarounds at Euston, hehehehehe.

Yeah right, I'd love to see them achieve that. Maybe in 10 or so years time. At this present moment in time no chance.

Yes, I know that Virgin have Pendolinos. But where are they getting stock for the huge enhancements?

Tighter diagramming of the existing rolling stock. I gather Alstom seem to think there will be less Pendos in for maintainance during the day. Going to be a lot of lost mileage if one of them does sit down however.

Don't forget Virgin are also getting five more SuperVoyagers from CrossCountry for the December timetable once the XC HSTs are back from overhaul

??? ???

Hmm? I thought that the whole point of XC getting HSTs was to enable 5 voyagers to be doubled up - eliminating overcrowding on most services.

And I hope VT don't start operating Voyagers on more full electric routes!

That's what I thought too  ???

Don't forget Branson is in bed with the DfT...

Really??? So why did he lose XC or did he not really want to retain this franchise anymore by not submitting a challenging bid for XC?

On the subject of Branson, I laughed when I read his comment after VT had lost the XC franchise.

He said something along the lines of: "we are shocked, we will organise a meeting to find out why we lost" etc.

Ummm - you took 8 car loco hauled trains off and put 4 car poorly designed DMU trains on! You caused overcrowding while passenger numbers where going up. Your punctuality was abysmal and would have been worse without 10 min waits at every station!!!!!!

Did he really think Virgin had a chance of winning?

--------

But what about these 5 vomiters?

Except that's basically what the SRA at the time were specifying for the franchise!!! All the operators would have done it. Virgin originally said they'd find a decent alternative, but the SRA blocked that too...

It's part of the franchise agreement.....

Ha! So XC have been lying - there won't be any double Voyagers. Just a handful of services will be longer (the HSTs).

No - the new timetable drops the number of units required hence allowing units to double up IIRC.

Do you mean the axing of the Brighton services? I can't see that removing 5 diagrams.

Brighton itself axes 2 diagrams, don't forget there are also Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport services too. Also the timetable is made in such a way that diagrams are isolated to certain services too...

I don't know if it's just during summer and or because it was a weekend, but i was on a double voyager to Reading (bournemouth service) on Sunday, and on return also, plus every service i saw was double also.  I wasn't actually meant to be using this service, but because fast paddington service was running 10 minutes late and reported as full and standing, Customers were advised to board this service and change at Reading, luckily there was plenty of room!  I think it was because turbos were on the route due to the suspension from Evesham northwards.  3 cars were running to/from Evesham as far as Oxford with an extra 2 being detatched (ex london) or coupled on (ex evesham) at Oxford.
On my return journey, one thing that really cheesed me off was that no-one was advised until the train arrived at Oxford that part of the train would be taken out of service.  It was a bit of a mad scuffle with passengers moving from the rear 2 coaches into the front 3.. i couldn't understand quite why the service wasn't advertised as "Oxford and Evesham, front 3 coaches Oxford, Evesham, 2 rear coaches Oxford Only" or something of that sort.
It just made it slightly chaotic as nobody was aware.. i was at the time on my way to charlbury and was luckily in the correct section of the service !

Sorry to go off topic there ::)

We definetly need more double voyager services, to compliment the HST services. 

PErsonally dont think that VWC should have been allowed to get the extra 5 voyagers, as they too are needed for the XC franchise.  They should have been made to wait for the pendolions to be ready. 

XC have been deactivating the tilt mechanism on their Super Voyagers. >:(

What a waste. Why not clear them for tilting in Devon and Cornwall to slash journey times.

And what will VT use the 5 extra voyagers for? London to Birmingham?

Beefed-up Chester and North Wales services, allowing them to stop dragging Pendolinos to Holyhead behind Class 57s, so they can run under the wires full-time to help provide the high-frequency timetable from December.


Not worth the money to fit the necessary lineside equipment and check clearances, when nothing run by FGW uses tilt and several of the XC Plymouth services each day will be HSTs anyway.

The reason XC are deactivating their sets is because, apart from Banbury to Oxford, none of their routes is equipped for it since the end of XC services up the West Coast to Scotland. And the tilt rams also pose reliability issues.

And given the majority of sets remaining with XC are non-tilting 220s, it would be a nightmare to try and roster particular services with 221s to enable the timings to benefit from tilt.

But it is a good example of a non-joined up railway shooting itself in the foot. Imagine if tilt was enabled on Edinburgh to Newcastle, also in the Durham area, and then south of Taunton. I imagine a fair bit could be shaved off the overall journey time. But of course, being at the extremities of the network, the benefits wouldn't be felt by the majority of passengers, and the costs of installation for typically 1 train per hour would be too high.   

That is why IEP/HST2 should be 100% electric and tilting compatible.

It would ensure certain lines are electrified, and would encourage NR to do a large sweep of the country to update lines for tilt.

Then many trains would use the tilt on parts of the network (i.e. FGW and XC would benefit west of Taunton, making it worthwhile; and both XC and NXEC would benefit on the Northern parts of the ECML).

 ;D

XC double up Voyagers over the weekend, so that is why you were seeing double  ;)

Speaking of  Pacers and AXC services, FGW's 142067 and 'West' traincrew were hired in to cover a part journey for AXC on their 9S49 06:25 Plymouth - Edinburgh service yesterday. A replacement Voyager was laid on from Bristol TM but this succumbed to faults on the doors at Cheltenham Spa.

I believe there were some crewing issues at XC yesterday, one of the results being the booked 22x not being able to reach Plymouth in time to start 9S49.

Which service is 9S49 for those of us not in the know as to reporting numbers?

Apologies.

I saw a 142 heading south from Bristol around 9.15, so presumably that was it going back? 

I thought FGW were returning units only after refurbishment had been completed on their 150s?

I meant heading back south to Exeter having deputised for a XC Voyager as far as Bristol.

i expect the passengers found the ride much better and the the train less smelly

voyagers do not wear well! and also in my experiance altho it may be coincidence with age setting in have the conditions of the trains gone down hill since ariva took over?

as far as the post topic.... surly the pacers should have been renovated before the 150's and im sorry but a paint job is not renovated thats like saying a small kictchen where you cant move is cosy!!

swt's class 159s are great that is a renovation the inside of those is so much better than the voyagers

If you look at http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rollingstock/rollingstockplan?page=2 if the future Northern will be expected to give 17 3 car 323s to London Midland in exchange for '23 EMU vehicles'  So it looks like the definition of 'vehicle' the DfT use is a complete unit with however many carriages/coaches it has.

Roger Ford in his excellent analysis of the 1300 new coaches promised by the DfT in Septembers Modern Railways, confirms the cascade of 17 3 car 323 or 51 vehilces, from Northern to London Midland for Birmingham area.

However, his analysis of "new"  stock for suggests Northern is down for 25 * 3 car brand new Seimens units making 75 vehicles in all. They are also down for "new" DMUS amounting to 158 vehicles. Although net Northern will get only 182 "new" vehicles, (75+158-51=182). Although apparently 182 will depend on the exact  150 cascade.


Some of the 158 extra DMU vehicles are suppose to be the first of a new generation DMUs, powered it is sugegsted by Captain Deltic "bionic duckweed", rather than 170 derivatives (172) curently on order
.
So as per the FGW cascade to Bristol area of "new" stock comprising 52 150 vehicles (2 & 3 car units) from London Overground and London Midland, Northern won't be getting 182 "new" vehicles.

The whole article is well worth reading to see how DafT have got themselves in a complete muddle over the provision of new units and resulting cascades of still servicable units. Throughout Roger Ford refers to vehicles as being coaches rather than units.

Also as far as I can see there appears to be no sign of any replacements for the 14X units, as the cascades are counted as "new" vehicles for the receiving TOC.