Great Western Coffee Shop

Hi All,

Would like your views,tried to book tickets to London Heathrow airport and return via london paddington with FGW for two adults and two children. Wanted a table seat and were offered coach D 23 24 25 26. Went to NXCC site recomeded by Devon-Metro and booked same trip and have
been given Coach D 25a 26a 29a 30a seats. Does anybody know if these are indeed a table seat and what are my rights ( If I have any) if I board the train and they are not. Many Thanks

a means airline.

Thought so, the others were sequential on FGW therefore we are stuffed as a family now. Have to think about traveling on the Mega Bus from now on prices cheaper and seats low enough to see what kids are
doing!!!

Dont suppose I have any come back

Those seat numbers sound strangely like a table to me.

basset44, what ticket type did you order?

I agree with Tom - I think you may have four seats round a table after all.  Seat numbers are allocated in banks of four (two each side of the gangway) down the carriage: in other words, the missing 27a and 28a in the sequence you have been quoted will be on the opposite side of the carriage from your table.

(I think!)  ::)

Almost definately, Chris.

It could be that those allocations are the tables in NXEC trains, though...

Hi, I ordered advance table seats this is what I recieved

Journey: 1 Cardiff Central to Heathrow Rail

Ticket type: Advance single
Route: Via Slough

Outward journey: 13 Aug 2008
departs Cardiff Central at 09:25 travel by Train service provider First Great Western to station London Paddington arrives 11:32 ( seats reserved: Coach: D Seats: 25A, 26A, 29A, 30A )

departs London Paddington at 11:55 travel by Train service provider Heathrow Express to station Heathrow Term123 arrives 12:10

Journey: 2 London Paddington to Cardiff Central

Ticket type: Advance Single
Route: First Great Western Traisn Only

Outward journey: 19 Aug 2008
departs London Paddington at 17:45 travel by Train service provider First Great Western to station Cardiff Central arrives 19:50 ( seats reserved: Coach: D Seats: 25A, 26A, 29A, 30A )

Just hope it is in the middle of the carriage

Basset44

Is there an online seating plan/ does anyone know the seating plan?

I will probably be going out tomorrow in order to get a seating plan in all honesty...

25, 26, 29, 30 all sound very much like they are tables though.

Remember, when you get seats they are entirely unrepresentative of what seat you actually get nowadays as a lot of TOCs just separate each seat and therefore have an A (airline) identification code, rather than F (facing) or B (backwards) to make it more easy to understand. The only problem is, that when they do that, they forget to put TABLE SEAT in the seat identifiers.

The fact that there are LD and HD sets also complicates things.

The diagrams up on my site are indicative of what seat allowances are also within the TSDB and RJIS.

I believe trains booked high density also have a level of reservable seats allocated to low density just in case they are swapped over during the day.

Yes, apparently the High Density sets have unreservable seats which match to the extra seats in the Low Density sets.

They might even have numbers missing so everything else matches up.

No, there are definately numbers on all seats in high density sets - you just never see reservations on the last 8 or so seats in each coach.

That makes sense.

And I can confirm 25, 26, 29 and 30 in D are indeed table seats - at least they were in two sets I have been in recently (but, oh help, I forget what density!)

I think the lower number seats are tables in both types of set...

Is there a seating plan for FGW HSTs so people can see which seats they have got.

For example, I want to know whether seats 29 and 25 are forwards/backwards, table/airline and window/aisle. I used NXEC and specified window, table and forward facing. Have I been given what I requested?

Thanks,

Btline

I doubt it just came back from Reading last Friday seat was table backwards but with someone sitting in it.

The seat reservation was not working at London. Yes it was a afternoon train packed solid. I asked the conductor where I could sit and ended up just inside FC by buffet car. I wold like to thank the conductor but after reading other post about rift raft in FC perhaps I should not say has I had the can of Strongbow on my table facing forward.

What is the view from the table seat? Is it like the LD HST?

all of them have pillars I believe.

 >:(  >:(

Should have picked airline as normal! Then again, I expect it is pot luck with their view as well!

Hi, if I get an advance fare and travel on the correct train but sit in a seat other than the seat on my reservation card could I be excessed to a standard open fare or even get a penalty fare?  I don't like sitting opposite to the direction of travel and as most seats are airline now even if I request a specific seat the train could be in reverse.

Technically you could be, but most guards aren't mean enough to enforce it, unless the train is really busy for example.

Hi, Zoe, and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

In my experience, nobody seems to worry about which seat you use, provided you travel on the specified train.  For example, yesterday I sat in a seat that was marked as 'reserved' for someone from Newton Abbot to Bath Spa.  There was no sign of them, so I used it, from Nailsea & Backwell to Bristol Temple Meads!

 ;)

There's another reason why lots of seats are reserved but nobody sits in them. When you buy a ticket online you have to choose a train, even if you're on a flexible ticket, and the system then automatically reserves a seat for you. As more and more people are buying online, this problem will become greater.

I've also never had a problem sitting in a different seat.

Welcome to the forum Zoe! :)

I seriously doubt you would be charged the excess or penalty fare, as long as you're on the right train. I would have thought the conductor could ask you to sit in the right place- and even then that's mean if the train's not busy!

And I sympathise with you because I too hate going backwards on long journeys.

The worst that could happen is that you are moved to your correct seat, however I have never ever heard of this happening or would have thought even the most miserable of train managers would enforce that.

Morning

One or two Guards (I don't like the term Train Manager), in
the far SW I noticed are removing reserved seat labels from
seats in quite periods, they know that people (after a while),
haven't turned up to claim, which I find very helpful.  I
always have it in the back of my mind when looking for a seat,
with reserved labels, they gone to the loo or buffet coach so
don't usually risk it.  If people book seats but can't gurrantee
getting themselves there for the train they booked for, just
don't bother with the reservation of the seat and buy a normal
Day Return e.t.c?!  Make it a bit easier for everyone else!

I wonder how many of them have a good reason over how many
couldn't be bothered to say i.e get out of bed in time?

Regards

Karl.

NR say you should sit in your reserved seat but if there is a better one then most guards don't care.

You have 8 minutes from train departure to claim your reserved seat anyway, after which time it becomes a free for all.

Thanks for the replies, the easiest option may be to get a ticket that allows travel on any off peak train but since the scrapping of the Super Saver in 2006 this is getting to be quite an expensive option.  If I go backwards on long journeys it can make me feel sick and I think this is only going to be worse now with the high backs of the seats as my view will be restricted.

On NXEC's website, you only have to select a train if you wish to reserve a seat. ;)

Perhaps if FGW did this, these rogue reservations would go away.

While I am on the subject - I fully recommend the NXEC booking website. It is far superior than any other one I have seen. Very easy to switch your timings until you get the cheapest deal.

But they don't do group saves. :(

Sorry, back to the subject.......

Yesterday I booked 3 tickets as im travelling to Taunton next Monday (using the CDF-Taunton service) and was told there were no seat reservations available? I asked why and was told that its a small sprinter train.  I take it the Cardiff-Taunton will be a 143 or 150 then and not a new refurbished 158!  ;)

Correct.

I travel in London from Bath in the peak once a fortnight or so and usually buy open tickets because I need to be flexible about my times.  I often buy a combination of tickets to save money.  I usually buy my tickets online at the Chiltern website.  Until recently the tickets have automatically come with seat reservations which I have never used.  Sorry to everyone that this has confused and inconvenienced.  yesterday, I noticed a new feature on the chiltern site.  By unchecking a tickbox I can not have a seat reserved.  From now on I shall be doing this. 

So how come they dont do reserve seating on this service? I dont mind, it doesnt bother me as the time im travelling im sure there will be room but im just curious!

I think it's regarded as a local service, and often has stock to match (pacers).  I've never seen any local services on the route south of Bristol have seat reservations.

I can see why - there is hardly enough time to clean the train at Taunton let alone put out seat reservations. Something like a 5 minute change over time at Taunton before the train is off back to Cardiff.

Hi All,

Just to confirm that the seat numbers are indeed a table with a good window view, but we were unable to sit in the seats on the outward trip due to the seat reservation system not working. Must say thank you to the two people who occupied the seats and would not move.

If you'd have asked the guard/train manager/bloke in the buffet i'm sure they would have had a word and got them to move.

Sadly, if seat reservations are not shown - then it's a free for all.

Hi,
The sign at Cardiff station said the seat reservations were not available on the train, so I was expecting the seats to be taken. The guard did not announce that seat reservations were unavailable untill after Newport think he had been questioned enough. Did think it was just one of them days. Trip back was great and all in all it was only a table seat.

But surely if you have a seat reservation ticket that they give you when you book the tickets then its valid? Its not the passengers fault if the train company dont put the seat reservations out!

All your seat reservation "ticket" does is inform you that a seat reservation made and it is in coach X in seat XX.

If reservation labels are not shown - no seat reservations are valid. End of story.

Exactly -  it tells you which coach and which seat has been reserved for you. Surely the staff on board will be able to see its then reserved and ask people to move.

Besides the TOC really should put seat reservations out for those that have reserved seats. Even if they are complimentry and at no extra cost to the passenger, its good customer service.

It informs you of your reservation. It does not guarantee it.

In certain circumstances with a tight turnaround, especially with a late inbound train, is it more important to get that train out again on time or delay it another 10 minutes so reservations can be put on?

Doesnt take 10 minutes to put a few seat reservations out im sure. They often start putting the seat reservations out when the terminating train is reaching its destination ready for the train journey back.  Sorry, if they offer seat reservations then they really should put them out IMO, otherwise dont offer them at all.

Passing through a train with several hundred reservations all on a little roll of paper can take an awful long amount of time. Seat reservations can only be printed at a station with a suitable terminal, for my area (SWT) that is only really Weymouth, Exeter, Bournemouth and London Waterloo. If the demand is high enough, the printer is broken OR there are networking difficulties with the National Reservation System/Service then no reservations can be printed for certain trains obviously.

If seat reservations are not offered on certain services, then advance purchase is likewise not available on said services. Put it this way, seat reservations are issued so that no more than the trains booked capacity is issued. Therefore all passengers with a reservation should be able to obtain a seat except in the possibility where it is a busy train. Either way, if they're not on display then no reservations apply.

Doesn't take 10 minutes? lol, ok then.. try saying that for a fully reserved Paddington - Penzance..

More like 30 minutes....

I was talking about reserved seats they have on the ATW service from Manchester to West Wales. Ive seen the conductor put them out after the train leaves Stockport ready for the return journey back to West Wales. So they are there ready for when the train arrives at Manchester.

Obviously an 8 car 125 service would take longer if the entire train was reserved.

that's because for those routes reservations are printed in advance at Cardiff iirc.
 

Sorry didn't realise that ATW service had been brought into the topic, still thought it was related to the lack or reservations on a Cardiff - Paddington service.

Sorry, I was just using ATW service as an example as thats the main TOC I travel with.

In India they paste a printout of all the reservations for a carriage by the door on the outside of the carriage. That way people with reservations can confirm they're in the right place (it even displays your name) and people without reservations can easily identify available seats for their journey without having to walk down the train looking at individual tickets (or, in the case of Voyagers, waiting half a minute at each seat while it says "This.... seat.... is.... available.... till.... Newton.... Abbott...." ;D).

It also means someone can paste up the reservations for a 25 coach train in about 10 minutes.

That is one advantage of the Vomiters - the reservation can be flicked on in a click.

No, ignore that - the screen is too small*, so scrolling letters are used, which people take ages to read, blocking the aisle and delaying the train!

And they break down too often.

*I mean for "this seat is not reserved" - the one that most people stop to read!

Yet another design fault with the vomiters.

Don't see why Vomits don't show Seat Not Reserved ....

Problem with Vomits, if the first download didn't work (of the reservations) - the system tends to not let it download it a second time.

I'm sorry, but when you've been given a pile of reservations to do, that haven't been pre-sorted and wripped, it can take a while to get them all out - remember the member of staff doing this is the same member of staff who also cleans your train so what do you want doing in a short turnaround time?  Cleaning? Reservations? Getting the return service out ASAP?  What do you think FGW/XC/any TOC is going to prioritise?  The overall cost of a HST delay is OVER ^100 PER MINUTE.

As we all know FGW is being watched by the DfT, so on-time performance will always be top (after safety of course.)

Edited to add: Read that you weren't referring to FGW in this case.

And don't forget any impacted delay minute that impacts any other services is ^100 per minute on each of those trains too!

Very true  :)

Is it just me or do other commuters with travel cards get increasingly tired and fed up of boarding a train at Paddington in the evening only to find that virtually every seat in every carriage has a reservation ticket on and there is nowhere to sit? So you either take a chance and sit in a reserved seat with the risk of being kicked out if the person who reserved the seat turns up, or you sit there without being kicked out and wonder why on earth someone booked a seat and then didn't turn up to sit in it ??? The whole setup of seat reservations also causes absolute chaos with people either trying to find their reserved seat, or people without reservations trying to find a non-reserved seat (or a reserved seat in which to "take a chance") ::) It's really not something you need after a long day at work.

I'm a long time commuter on the services to and from London, and both myself and my wife have annual Gold cards spending and extortionate amount of ~^8500 per year between us to travel on these trains but on a number of occasions (which seems to be ever increasing), we have not been able to get a seat on the way home due to virtually the whole train being reserved >:(

Why is it that FGW seem to consider the people who pay a huge amount of money up front and guarantee them income in advance to be less important than those who make odd one-off journeys? I can only guess their mentality is that they've already got our money so why should they care when they can rake in even more revenue from one-off journey seat reservation bookings ::)

IMO, seat reservations should be scrapped (some other companies operating out of London don't even offer seat reservations at all) and it would then be a completely fair system of first come, first served. If you get on the train late and all the seats are taken then that would be your own fault for not arriving early enough. However, to get on a train relatively early only to be greeted by a sea of wall to wall reserved seats that you're not entitled to sit in when you are paying FGW thousands of pounds a year really makes the blood boil >:(

If FGW can't offer a FAIR seating system for ALL it's passengers then they need to look long and hard at either offering some form of compensation to those people who pay thousands up front on travel cards to use their services and can't get a seat due to the ridiculous amount of reserved seats, or they need to give those people the authority to use first class seating on services where the standard class seating is so heavily reserved.

Has anyone already written to or approached FGW over this particular issue? I'm considering doing this myself so it would be good to hear other peoples thoughts and views on this.

seat reservations are a pain and i do agree partly with what you are saying....but you dont actually state where your destination station from London actually is, and if i remember there is something written down about not having to stand for more than a certain length of time on your journey.
Allowing people to sit in first class carte blanche wont happen although the T/M is allowed to use discretion on this in times of a very busy train

My issue isn't actually the fact that I sometimes have to stand (because at the end of the day, some people have to) but it's about the fact that even if the train is relatively empty when I board it, with almost every seat reserved, if all of the few non-reserved seats are already taken then I get no choice but to either stand or take a chance with a reserved seat, even though most of the train is still empty.

By reserving virtually the whole train, FGW is effectively forcing anyone with a travel card to stand because travel card holders don't get seat reservations! It's nice to see that FGW value their travel card holders so highly (the people who pay them vast amounts of money up front to enable them to run their services in the first place) ::)

My start / destination station is Didcot Parkway which is usually a ~45 minute journey. I've not seen anything written down with regards to the amount of time people are "expected" to stand for so if you have a link to this information I would certainly be interested to see it.

Welcome to the forum GaryM.

Somewhere buried away in DfT documentation is a requirement (or aspiration, at least) that commuters should not have to stand for a journey of more than 20 minutes. Can't remember where I'm afraid.

You can try heading for coach C on HSTs (which from my observations seems to be left free of reservations as a general rule) or checking the reservation tickets in the seat backs: just because there's a reservation displayed it doesn't necessarily mean you can't sit there. If the seat is not reserved between PAD/DID then you are perfectly entitled to use it. Trains making longer journeys (Swansea, Carmarthen, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Penzance etc) also tend to be more heavily reserved than shorter workings (Cardiff and Bristol T M).

Is it fair to say a passenger travelling to Swansea for example that a 2hr plus journey should also include a gamble on getting a seat?

However, if you are travelling at peak hours, I am suprised the train is heavily reseved!

Yes, most of the trains I get on are the HST's and I'd already clocked some time ago that one carriage (as you say, carriage C) is usually left reservation free. However, it still means that unless you are one of the first 60 odd people without a reservation to get to the train then you are stuffed. One reservation-free carriage on a train containing 5 standard class carriages is a joke. As stated before, ALL carriages should be reservation free and it should be first come, first served. But then of course FGW wouldn't get the extra profit they are making by charging for seat reservations.

For people who regularly travel on these trains, they will know that trying to find which seats reserved from stations futher down the line ends up in a complete bun fight with everyone else trying to do the same and in *most* cases seats are actually reserved from Paddington anyway so it's just pure luck if you happen to stumble across one that's reserved from a station after your destination point.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but the situation with extortionate train prices and overcrowding is problem enough as it is without FGW adding more insult to injury for commuters by seemingly favouring and giving seat priority to customers who make one-off journeys.

I have certainly shared your frustration, GaryM (welcome to the forum, by the way), walking through what seems to be the entire standard class section of a train and finding seats occupied OR with those white tags on them, and knowing / suspecting that a half will remain unoccupied, and the other half will be occupied for the post part by people who are paying far, far less than I am.    It's not a problem unique to FGW - I've had the same thing (except that the reservarions are automated screens!) on cross country.

What causes so many seats to be left open?  I suspect it's because people who book flexible single / return journey tickets can get (and arr offered) a seat reservation free of charge ... and yet they have bought a flexible ticket precisely because they don't know which train they'll be using!  Personal view - it's very hard indeed to run any system that does not make even a small charge at the point of use without it getting distorted.  "Market forces" and all that ... and you could say that it applies to free elements of the NHS, bulk emailing, and senior bus passes too.

What's the solution? Or is this indeed something that should be solved; are others happy with the status quo? My own logic says "add a one pound seat reservation fee".   It should be possible for this to be done in a way that's cheap to administer with modern online technology, and cancellation via the online computer could be done up until half an hour before the train starts its journey.  You could then cut the number of reserved but unoccipied seats, shave a little of the fares to compensate (ha, ha!) and offer reservations to season ticket holder such as GaryM.

We have some people around here with access to figures / data.  Is there anyone who can give us:

a) Data on what proportion of seats are reserved, and how that goes up and down by route, time and date?

b) What proportion of seats are reserved for each type of ticket, and in each case what percentage of the reserved sets are actually occupied by the people who hold the reservation. 

c) How many people travel on the right train but sit in a seat which is not the one they have reserved, and how many sit in a reserved seat to which they are not entitled?  How many people miss the train that they have a reserved seat on because of failing connections, and have to travel unreserved on the next available service?

The answers aren't going to change anything - but they'll certainly help to explain to me and perhaps GaryM and others why the current, apparently unfair, system is in place.

Why not? If those people want to guarantee getting a seat then they should make sure they're on the concourse when the train is announced so they have a chance of getting on it as early as possible to increase their chances of a seat. Either that or stand until a seat becomes free further down the line like commuters without the luxury of seat reservations have to. Why should commuters and one-off journey payers be treated any differently?

Some commuters actually travel for even longer than I do so are you suggesting that if a commuter travelled to and from Bath every day then as a travel ticket holder they should not necessarily be entitled to a seat whereas someone making a one-off journey to Bath should always be guaranteed a seat ???

First off, FGW actually doesn't charge for seat reservations if made at the time you book your ticket, so they make very little money from them (a ^5 charge is levied if a reservation is made after the time of booking, but this is not really a money spinner, more of a disincentive to discourage passengers from making multiple reservations for a journey and only using one). In fact one of the ironies of the current fares system is that the cheapest tickets (Advance) are only available for use on the booked train and so come with a compulsory seat reservation.

Through the accidents of history, the HSTs out of Paddington are serving two markets: commuters and long-distance travellers (contrast this with the train service out of King's Cross, where many of the anglo-Scottish services are first stop York, so no good if you're commuting to Peterborough). Every single intercity TOC in the UK offers seat reservations on long-distance services for obvious reasons: as unpleasant as it might be to stand for a short "commute", a journey of several hours (Swansea 3 hours, Carmarthen 4 hours, Penzance even longer) is different kettle of fish.

I would suggest that it's not a reasonable request for FGW to withdraw seat reservations completely for the benefit of commuters given that they have to offer an "intercity"-style level of service for longer journeys.

It's true that many of the commuter operators out of London (e.g. First Capital Connect, London Midland etc) don't as a rule offer seat reservations. However, FGW does operate a non-reservable commuter train service out of Paddington, the former FGW link/Thames trains commuter services to Oxford: these offer a similar level of service to other commuter companies and are not usually reservable.

Its also worth noting that after something like 10 minutes, if a seat reservation has not been taken, you are entitled to sit there.

A few observations of my own:

There are certainly lots of seat reservations that are not taken up: this is partially due to people with flexible tickets making a reservation but then travelling on a different train (which they are perfectly entitled to do). Another big factor is that many people are either too idle or too confused to find their allocated seat when they do have a reservation, and just plonk themselves down in the first available space.

If you want flexibility - turn up and catch the next train when you need it - then it is unreasonable to expect a guaranteed seat, especially for journeys of modest length.

In the evening peak HSTs seem to empty out significantly at Didcot, leaving lots of empty seats as the train heads further west. This illustrates one of the paradoxes of the commuter railway, which was a problem for British Rail and others before them: mile for mile, season ticket holders pay significantly less than other customers because of the huge discounts they get compared to buying a separate ticket every day. However, they travel at the peak times. To ensure all commuters had a seat would require a vast amount of rolling stock that only made one or two journeys in revenue-earning service every day: it would spend the rest of the time either running round empty or sitting in a siding, costing money all the while. That's why it's simply not economic for every commuter to sit.

Finally, d_m is right, a seat reservation if not taken up ceases to be valid as soon as the train has departed from the station at which the passenger was supposed to board; some train managers are very conscientious about removing reservation labels that have not been taken up, others less so.

(a) First a confession - a few weeks back, I bought an Off-Peak return to London and reserved a seat on the 1751 for the way back. Why? Because I knew that the train would be full of Reading and Oxford commuters, and I wanted a seat for my whole 2.5 hour journey! It's free and easy to do. So it did. Is this selfish?

However, I started my Tube journey back to Paddington too late. (left only half an hour to get from Westminster, going via Baker Street) I rushed up the stairs onto the concourse at 1752 and the train was gone from the departure boards. However, as an Off-Peak return holder, I was entitled to get the 1821! ;D (my ticket - as usual - wasn't checked anyway ::) )

So that evening, perhaps a commuter was deprived of a seat on the 1751. I feel a little guilty, but I am certain it did not stay empty for long! ;)

Of course - had their been a charge for the reservation, or if the rules meant I was tied to that train (i.e. like an Advance fare) I might not have reserved..... No - I would have got the Tube much earlier!

I agree with Graham.

(b) On TOC webistes powered by "TheTrainLine" (inc. FGW) you have to choose your service, even if you're not buying an Advance. On the "MixingDeck" websites (LM, SN, SE, NXEC) you don't have to pick a service. The website makes it clear - only select a service if you want to reserve a seat. If FGW adopted the MixingDeck, I am sure the amount of empty reserved seats would decrease.

(c) Sometimes, I don't sit in my reserved seat - if it is backwards facing/ poor view etc., and I can see a vacant seat which suits my preferences, I move.

However, I always remove the card from the seat. (except on XC - but on XC no-one takes any notice of reservations/they're not working)

Sorry for the long post - I think that ATOC should look at this problem.

I wasn't actually aware that the flexible ticket booking system required a seat reservation to be booked even if that person might not travel on that particular train. If this really is the case then it's complete madness but does go some way to explaining why there is so much confusion as to why booked seats sometimes remain empty other then the obvious one of the person just missing the train. I agree that flexible tickets should NOT be allocated any reserved seats...surely that is the whole point of flexibility as already quite rightly pointed out.

The "grace period" whereby if a reserved seat hasn't been occupied within a certain time of the train leaving the "reserved from" station is also good to know but from past experience I have seen people turning up to their seats well into the journey (and sometimes not even until after the next stop) due to the fact they couldn't even get down the aisle to them because of overcrowding. I think even knowing this unpublished rule I would feel somewhat awkward potentially arguing with someone who has booked a seat I am sitting in. Easier just to avoid any conflict, give up the seat and spend the rest of the journey standing while cursing at FGW for the chaos, confusion and frustration they cause with their mass seat reservation shambles.

I know it's impossible for everyone to have a seat with the amount of people that use these trains and I don't dispute the fact that people will have to stand (which I don't mind doing from time to time) but it should be those people who got to the train last or late who should have to stand.

I know I might be starting to sound like a broken record but at the end of the day we all pay our money to use the same services so I think that we should all be entitled to fair and equal treatment whether we are commuters or not. IMO, seat reservation eligibility for certain types of fare payers only DOES NOT provide a fair and equal service for everyone. If scrapping seat reservations is not an option then maybe FGW should start providing an equal service to their biggest fare paying customers (commuters) by allowing them to reserve seats too.

So how about it FGW? (assuming someone from FGW actually reads this forum)...either scrap seat reservations altogether or give your travel card holders (commuters) the ability to ring up and reserve seats like your other customers can...

To be fair, as TMs should be doing regular ticket checks, would it be too much to have a quick glance at reservation labels and remove those where no-one is sitting and the boarding station for the reservation has passed?  I've never worked a train so I may be asking too much, just a thought?

Also Grahame, your idea is good re: being able to cancel the reservation beforehand, however it would need to be a 90 minute deadline for the cancellation to go through the system and then time for the reservations to be printed out/put on the train - in my experience reservations are usually automatically printed out approx 65-75 minutes before departure.

Thank you for those very useful tips, flamingo!  ;)

I remember back in the BR days warnings on the cards of fines for anyone doing this.

They are still printed on the bottom of the slips:

Penalty for unauthorized occupation of seat: ^50
Penalty for unauthorized removal of label: ^200

I guess these penalties are buried away in the Railway Byelaws, although I have no idea if they've ever been enforced.

Yes, but I don't think it should be "unauthorised" if it is my seat and that, by moving it, I am allowing someone else to sit down!

Btw, I once saw a guard on a Hereford train walking through the train, removing all reservation cards around Moreton! (I think the reason was that it was on a 180, and the cards were for an HST!)

Hi flamingo...thanks for your comments.

Having been a commuter in and out of London for 16 odd years, I've learnt most of the tricks of the trade and have no problems sitting next to a complete stranger, even if I have to ask them to get up to let me into the window seat :) And I always take great pleasure in making those selfish people who seem to think their bag deserves a seat to itself move them so I can sit there instead, even if there are lots of other already empty seats in the carriage without any bags on ;D

A third of reservations not taken up on some trains is quite a high number. The problem with taking a chance in a reserved seat in the hope that it's one of the "phantom" reservations for a flexible ticket where the customer has chosen to take another train, is that it's still just pure pot luck and you may end up sitting in a seat where the customer *has* actually boarded the train and therefore end up getting kicked out. If those reservations weren't there in the first place then the seat would belong to the person who sat in it first with no need to take any such gamble and no arguments over who has the right to sit in the seat and when.

Out of interest, if a commuter was sat in a reserved seat and the customer who reserved that seat then turned up to try and claim it after the train had departed the station, if the commuter refused to give up the seat and that customer decided to complain to you, would you just tell them it is their bad luck for not getting to the seat before the train departed or would you ask the commuter to move (I mean in reality, not in theory)? And is the same general view shared by all train managers that if a customer has not claimed his or her reserved seat by the time the train departs the "reserved from" station then that seat reservation immediately becomes void and they no longer have any right to claim that seat?

and just to add...

You can't just hang around until after the train leaves to see what reserved seats haven't been occupied because by the time the train leaves all seats are nearly always already taken either by the people who reserved them, or by commuters who have already decided to take a chance in them. Therefore if you want a seat and there are only reserved ones left, you have no real choice but to take the gamble BEFORE the train actually departs.

[/quote]


Out of interest, if a commuter was sat in a reserved seat and the customer who reserved that seat then turned up to try and claim it after the train had departed the station, if the commuter refused to give up the seat and that customer decided to complain to you, would you just tell them it is their bad luck for not getting to the seat before the train departed or would you ask the commuter to move (I mean in reality, not in theory)? And is the same general view shared by all train managers that if a customer has not claimed his or her reserved seat by the time the train departs the "reserved from" station then that seat reservation immediately becomes void and they no longer have any right to claim that seat?
[/quote]

You have to allow for the fact that the train is eight coaches long and sometimes people do get on at the last minute.  Give them some time to walk down, usually about 5 minutes to be on the safe side.

I traveled from Worcester to Warminster (direct, on FGW) last Wednesday and the first thing I noticed was the huge number of "reserved" tickets on the seats. The train was fairly busy, not helped by only being two coaches. I noticed that the two seats opposite us (on a table) were reserved from Westbury to Southampton; at Bath these two seats were taken by boarding passengers - who just didn't seem to notice the reservation tickets. At Westbury, the passengers who had reserved these seats "claimed" them back, at this point we said they could have ours as we were about to get off anyway. By this time the train was extremely full, with people standing in the vestibules.

It does seem rather perverse that those who pay the least for their tickets are automatically guaranteed a seat, whilst those who pay through the nose are not; having said that I fully understand why cheap tickets have reservations "attached" to them.  I did hear people boarding at Cheltenham/Gloucester etc complaining that all the seats were reserved, closer examination would reveal that many of these seats were not required until Bath, Salisbury or Southampton. Another major failing of the current system is the inability to "use" the same seat more than once. If the train I was on required a "reserved" seat from Worcester to Bristol Parkway; then one from Bristol TM to Bath Spa, then one from Westbury to Southampton and finally one from Fareham to Brighton this requires that 4 different seats each have a reserved ticket put on them. If nothing else, this seems to give a false impression of the "load factor" of the train and clearly confuses many boarding passengers.

I had actually commented to my wife earlier in the journey that the seat reservation system is still operating on the same technology that Brunel must have used. What is needed is a small LCD display on each seat back showing the reservation details, as per the paper ticket at present.  On the top of each display there should be a red or green light which would show the availability of that particular seat at that segment of the journey.

Having "criticised" FGW, could I now say what a bargain my journey actually was. We were going to Birmingham to see Tina Turner (Great !!!). The "full" (off peak) return fare from Warminster to Birmingham was ^30.70 (^54.10 anytime!). By splitting at Worcester and using a fistful of advance singles (and reservation tickets) , the return fare was ^14.40. It will be even less now I have my ^5 FGW voucher, when we go up to see the Eagles in July !

That's totally wrong actually.  It is possible for the system to assign the same seat more than once.  I've seen reservation slips with EXD-TAU, TAU-RDG, RDG-PAD on before, and countless other examples.

Yes...during which time you're sitting in a reserved seat (the only ones left available) wondering if and when you are going to get kicked out. Under fair circumstances (with no seat reservations), that person who boarded the train at the last minute would be left without a seat which should be the consequences of not getting to the train in good time (something which I myself would expect if I got on a train late). Instead, they swan down the train and kick some poor person out of their seat who, due to the lack of unreserved seats took a gamble in a reserved seat (which IMO they should be entitled to having got on the train before that other person).

If you ever see the trains on a Friday (admittedly when they will be at their busiest), the whole train is absolute chaos with people trying to squeeze past other people already standing in the aisles in order to try and find their reserved seats ::) Again, with no seat reservations this wouldn't be an issue because some of the people standing in aisles would already be in seats (that they deserve having got there first) and those who boarded late would be the ones standing in the aisles. There would then be no-one squeezing up and down the train trying to find their reserved seats because there wouldn't be any!

First come, first served is the way it should be where a seat can't be guaranteed to every customer (which I think we all agree and understand just insn't possible with the amount of people who travel on the trains).

I'm still not really sure that is fair though?

Is it fair that if somebody has a tight connection and cannot physically arrive half an hour before the train departs and then is not entitled to a seat?

If I was travelling back from London on Friday evening, on the 1803/1903 departures towards Penzance I would be fairly outraged if I was not allowed a reservation with my ticket and would probably choose to find another method of getting there! I understand these services are often packed as far as Exeter (often further) so my 2hr30 journey to Newton Abbot would be a nightmare. The ability to pay ^5 for a reservation to guarantee a seat would be a godsend!

I'm sorry, but you should perhaps tell FGW that  - not me ! Every seat (in my coach) had only one reservation (ticket) on it - and I saw cases of "non overlapping" reservations on separate seats.
I must confess that I am perhaps not the most widely traveled rail passenger but I don't recollect ever having seen more than one reservation on a particular seat/ticket.

'Non-overlapping' reservations on the same label are indeed normal. However they won't be forced by the reservations system if for example passengers have expressed preferences for window or aisle seats [or facing/back where still available].

Paul

I often see seats with 3 bookings for reservations. Back to the point about LCD displays - these absolutely should not be installed unless a way of displaying all of the data can be introduced. The Voyager system is hopeless. The fact that XC installed them on their HSTs and aren't going to be using them says it all!!!

Why did XC install them? ??? :o


I agree - abolishing seat reservations would basically add 30 mins onto your journey time, making rail less competitibe!

And I would have thought that commuters, with seasons, will generally turn up LATER than other passengers travelling longer distances. So the first come first serve system would still leave commuters standing.

There could be a case though for making Advance fairs trains specific rather than train and seat specific.  There could then be an additional ^5 reservation charge if you wanted to reserve a seat.

No you could not have an advance ticket without a seat reservation.  You cannot force someone to stand if they dont want to.  That is why Advance tickets come with a booked seat.

Also if they did not have a seat reservation then it would become like a flexible ticket as they would just say - oh we could not get on the booked train it was too full  ;D

As a regular commuter from Paddington I nearly always end up chancing it in a reserved seat in the evening and have never been asked to move by the seats rightful owner.

To be honest even if someone has a reserved seat on a particular service they are likely to arrive for the train with plenty of time to avoid missing it, and therefore have a choice of seats (reserved or not).   I often wonder if some people sit in the seat next to their reserved seat in the hope of getting a adjacent vacant seat for their journey.......

If they have an Advance ticket though they are required to sit in their reserved seat.  It's one reason why I don't like using Advance tickets.

Wonder how many actually do sit in the seat reserved for them with an advance ticket?

Most of the commuters on these trains actually get off at the first 3 stops (Reading, Didcot or Swindon) so those seats would then become free for any standing passengers who are travelling a further distance. This would be fair because most passengers would then get a seat for at least part of their journey. It was mentioned earlier somewhere that commuters should just stand for the few stops they are travelling to. If this is the case then why can't other passengers stand for a few stops and then take the seats when the commuters get off? Suggesting this is basically saying that commuters are inferior passengers ???

If the "10 minute rule" was applied and you got to your seat 10 minutes after the train had departed (due to the mass of people you had to try and clamber over through 8 carriages to get there) then you would have lost your entitlement and would have to stand until another seat become vacant anyway.

As far as being outraged goes, this is exactly what commuters are when they are just trying to get home after a hard days work and board a train only to find wall-to-wall seat reservations with nowhere to sit without the potential threat of being turfed out.

The issue you mention about trains being packed all the way to Exeter actually raises another question which is off topic for this thread so should really be for another topic but I will add my 2p worth here anyway: Where it is already known how many advance tickets have been sold for a certain train, FGW should NOT be selling any more tickets for those trains where they have already reached a preset subscribed threshold. The assumption must also be made that a certain percentage of commuters will also occupy the train at certain times. This would then ensure those trains are operating with a SAFE number of passengers on board which is certainly not something which can be said with the current system in place with people packed up the aisles and in the vestibules like sardines.

??? You've lost me there. How exactly would no seat reservations cause a journey to take longer?


Not true. If anything, commuters actually get to a train EARLIER than other passengers because over time they learn which platform most trains will be on before the train is actually announced and will either get a good starting position for when the herd of cattle begin to pile down the platform towards the train, or they will get on the train before it's been officially announced (after they've let the cleaners and other workers vacate the train first of course). However, even with this clear advantage, being faced with carriages full of reserved seats will put pay to all that anyway...

I think you've been a bit luckier than me then. While I haven't always been kicked out of a reserved seat, on the last 3 consecutive times that I've taken a chance I have, which is one of the reasons it prompted me to question the whole seat reservation system and thus post this topic on here.

This is probably one of the other "flaws" in the system. I've actually sat and watched people turn up to their reserved seat and when they verbally announce that they would actually quite like a window seat to an aisle seat after all, or they don't actually want to be travelling backwards, they leave their reserved seat (with ticket still in place) and potter off in search of another seat ::)

It adds time to the journey because people arrive a lot earlier to guarantee a seat.

Commuters are less likely to be around at the station for much beforehand, as they get the train everyday and can time when to leave work etc.

However, those occasional travellers booked on a certain train will leave plenty of time to get the Tube, and will arrive at the station well beforehand.


Hence why I always take out my card if I move. Sorry if that is "unauthorised".

So it only adds time to the passengers journey and not the actual train journey. This is no different from any other queuing system in the UK. If you want to guarantee that you get something then you need to "queue up" early.


It makes no difference. Any experienced commuters WILL always be onboard the train before any other (non-commuter or inexperienced commuter) passengers even if they get to the station later, for the reasons I already mentioned above.

The strong debate here is a really good airing of views - but I would really like to have some reservation statistics (not just hearsay) as a grounding to continue.   I know I asked earlier and got no response so I'll try again does anyone who reads or posts here and is in the industry know of (or, better, have access to) any stats about seat reservations - proportion of seats reserved on a train, proportions correctly taken up, incorrectly occupied, etc, etc? or is the whole system "top secret" or simply left to get on with itself.  I know that in my own Victor Meldrew-ish style that at times I have looked at all those empty seats and white tags and though "I don't believe it ....".

It strikes me that the occasional passenger will arrive at the STATION well before the commuter (on average), and that that commuter will arrive at a/the seat on the TRAIN well before the passenger. At intermediate stations, the commuter knows where the train will stop, has less luggage and is more mobile. At London (Paddington) - where FGW has more starting passengers that any other of their termini - you get that buildup at the concourse until the platform is announced, from where the agility of the commuter allows him / her to dash for a seat ... and he / she will know it is worth moving fast.  At other termini where perhaps the train is available much earlier, the occasional traveller may get there first.


Edit to add ... I'm trying not to take this thread off topic, so I have added a separate post at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4520.0
which compares the prices paid by different types / groups of travellers per journey, to help put discussions on this point into context.  Also note - the statement that "season ticket is guarantee income for the TOC" is incorrect as refunds can be applied for and indeed I understand that at least one TOC has had to make refunds that are 'significant' due to people who had thought their London jobs were safe for a year finding that wasn't so.

Actually that was something that did intrigue me, the service I traveled on reversed direction so many times that I didn't know if I was coming or going !   :)

Expressing a facing or backward preference for reservations was always a cause of arguments on trains that reversed on route, such as XC at Reading and New St, as the labels would all be placed at start of journey. Most recent builds, and most overhauled trains seem to have uniquely numbered seats nowadays, so a direction preference is only really possible on trains that normally stay the same way round, such as FGW's HSTs; and then probably only at a booking office where the staff know which numbers are where. 

SWT's 158s and 159s maintain the tradition of seats either side of tables having the same numbers though, unusually.

Paul

Where I work, if people do not have tickets to enter somewhere they must queue (for up to half an hour today) however if they have pre-booked their tickets (much akin to seat reservations) they are able to jump the 200m long queue of people and enter instantaneously! There is an element of first come first serve, however this operates very much like coach C on HSTs. FGW is going to sell as many seats as possible even if they aren't occupied. A train with people standing up is more economically viable after-all!

If it really does bother you that much, nobody is stopping you actually getting a seat reservation!!

Hello devon_metro.. GaryM, who started this topic, says that he has an annual season ticket and, if I am correct, people with season tickets cannot reserve seats (can they?)  :)

Did somebody not mention further up that they can book seats on one set train per journey for the duration of the season?

Yep, I managed to miss that one.. sorry!..

It would be interesting to know if anyone on here with a season ticket has reserved a seat, and how easy it is to do, as well as if there are any other limitations..

Helen from the "I Hate FGW" blog managed to do it:

http://ihatefirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/06/bum-on-seat-part-1-e27a.html

Aah... I knew I'd read it somewhere in the past.. Thank you...

Her post does give what appears to be an individuals e-mail address at FGW though which I guess may not be the best way of reserving seats, and indeed nearly two years on, that person may no longer work for FGW... :)

The person doesn't work for FGW as such, works for FirstInfo so is customer services.

Thanks, as ever, Ollie, for your clarification!  ;) :D ;D

The "official" FGW policy appears to be that you CANNOT book reserved seats as a season ticket holder. The person on that blog appears to have been lucky and only managed to get 9 seat bookings anyway through a "goodwill gesture". I'm sure FGW customer service wouldn't be too happy if both my wife and myself rang up and each tried to book a years worth of seat reservations. And if other commuters start trying to do the same then I can see FGW putting a stop to it very quickly so not really a solution to the problem in hand. Also, if I was actually successful in booking seats as a commuter and then ended up getting another train (like flexible ticket passengers do) then I would just be a hypocrite and be adding to the problem that already exists so it would solve nothing at all.

During this debate, some people seem to have lost sight about what this thread was actually intended to provoke discussion for. It was NOT about commuters being able to book seat reservations, but was about getting rid of reservations to create a "first come, first served" system which I believe would be the fairest system for everyone who travels on these trains.

Anyway, I agree with grahame that we could really do with some hard facts and figures from someone in the know who has the relevant inside information.

I'm not going to be much use here, I don't think there is anyone within FGW who can tell you what % of reservations are correctly taken up or incorrectly occupied, unless it was strictly surveyed.

As far as proportion of seats reserved, I believe that every coach is reservable with the exception of coach C - however, I am no way 'in-the-know'!

As far as I'm concerned, that's actually very useful ... it tells the folks who are asking questions on this thread and wondering about practical ways to deal with their frustration what the situation is concerning data on which to base any suggestions of change (basically, there probably isn't any available - but at least they know that now).

What does slightly "get on my goat" in First Class is when there are lots of empty tables, I'm sat at a table, yet the plank who just got on insists on sitting opposite me, stealing my legroom and then spreading themselves across the table, just because their reservation is opposite me >:(

Why couldn't they have taken a table to themselves...? I know i'm going to be shot down for this, but I think it's slightly rude to sit opposite someone when there are clearly plenty of tables available!

If there weren't any spare tables then I would have absolutely no exception to somebody joining my table ;D

conversely why dont you take one of the empty tables yourself in the first place

Because it is rude and un-British to get up and move seats once a fellow passenger has sat down beside you. (unless they start acting in a violent/ disgusting way)

Of course, the other view is that the passenger should not take up another table lest a group of 4 come in, who would value sitting together.

If they had an Advance ticket then the terms and conditions require them to sit in their reserved seat.

I completely agree...which actually brings me to another gripe I have with seat reservations (don the Victor Meldrew hat again ;D). When carriages are only half reserved, you seem to get many single seat reservations for each bank of two seats. This means if you want to sit with someone else you can't because there are only single unreserved seats available in each set of two ::)

I know the most likely reason is probably that people travelling on their own probably want a window seat but it again makes the whole system very unfriendly for people travelling together who don't have reservations.

lol :)

Sorry, I didn't make my previous post very clear... :-X

I was referring to myself already being on the train, then somebody taking a seat opposite me at a station further along my journey!

I generally don't have a problem with it. It's the ones that spread themselves out over the table and steal my leg room, when it's unnecessary because other tables are available. I feel really awkward getting up and moving because that to me seems rather rude...!

I suppose the other explanation is that I just like my personal space ;D

Perhaps a variation on musical chairs should be introduced. For the first few minutes of the journey out of PAD at peak hours a soothing melody could be played to be terminated at random by the TM at which point all un taken booked seats become available.  ;D ;D ;D

 ;D ;D :D

I hesitate before posting this because I suspect that it will make me unpopular and please don't take these comments personally.. BUT

Season-ticket holders often think that the fact that they are very good customers of the railway makes them entitled to some kind of perferential treatment when it comes to seating but they forget that they are already treated extremely perferentailly when it comes to ticket prices.  ^8500 is a lot of money in anybodies book but I bet that it is an absolute bargain when compared to open returns brought on a daily basis.

I don't know your route but as an example the Bath-London annual season is ^7768.  Assuming that you travel to work 235 times per year (5 days a week minus 25 days for holiday), the daily cost is ^33 which is laughably small when compared to the open return peak time ticket price of ^146.  Plus you get "free" weekend travel and other perks if the ticket is a goldcard.  You would be hard pressed to beat ^33 with advanced tickets at peak times.

I think that an arguement can be made for cheap season tickets on short distance routes and the underground (London would grind to a halt if workers couldn't live in the suburbs where hosusing is cheaper and work in the city where wages are higher- you might regard these people as essential commuters).  But season ticket on longer distance "intercity" routes are unfairly cheap.  Why should the occasional business traveller effectively subsidise commuters from places like Bath.  Such commuters are generally not essential commuters but rather people who have chosen to live somewhere nice a long way from London - that is fine but they should pay for their lifestyle choice.

Some bulk-purchase discount is of course justified (20 to 30 % would seem fair) but can you imagine Tescos offering a "buy 53 and get 175 free" discount which is what the price differential from Bath represents?

[original post modified to correct ticket prices]

"Why should the occasional business traveller effectively subsidise commuters from places like Bath.  Such commuters are generally not essential commuters but rather people who have chosen to live somewhere nice a long way from London - that is fine but they should pay for their lifestyle choice."

Its not always a life style choice.  Since I went independent I have worked in:

London
Nottingham
Manchester
Uxrbdige
Swindon
Rugby
Birmigham
Uxbridge
Stafford
Oxford
Putney
Reading
Belfast
TBA

Now unless you propose I move house every six months and relocate the family, there is no choice.  Yes us long distance commuters may be fewer than local, but we should not be discounted on the basis of it.

If we're going to start bringing cost into the equation then no, I don't think commuters get a bargain at all. Season ticket prices are extortionate and every year they go up by more than the rate of inflation. It wouldn't cost you £33 to get from Bath to London and back in a reasonably fuel efficient car. And the government say they are trying to get cars off the road and encourage people to try and use public transport more. Well it doesn't look like that to me and they're not putting enough pressure on these private companies to restrict the ever increasing amounts of money they seem to be able to demand ::) While private train companies claim they need the money to improve the service, all I can see so far on the FGW network is refurbishment of the train carriages (done more than 2 years ago) and some enhancements to a few stations. £33 a day to travel is questionable but £146 a day is a complete and utter rip-off.

Private train companies aren't really offering discount prices to season ticket holders...they're just using it as an excuse to be able to justify hiking up the price of all other types of tickets saying those tickets are the "normal" prices. We all know full well that train travel in the UK is one of the most expensive in the world so I don't really think I need to say any more on that. And I think we all know where most of the money we pay really goes...

Anyway, I'm digressing and going off topic in my own thread so continuation of the cost argument / rant is probably best left for another topic.

I'm afraid Gary is pulling the old trick of not comparing like-with-like.
It may cost less than ^33 in Petrol to get to London and back, but that isn't the cost of doing that trip. According to the AA, a medium size car doing around 10000 miles a year costs in excess of 45.82p per mile to run.
To ensure a valid comparison, the Network Rail mileage from Bath Spa to Paddington is 107 miles - so: 107 X 2 X 45.82p = ^98.05, almost three times the train fare quoted !

I agree it isn't always a lifestyle choice, but it often is and in shaping general policies you have to look at generalities rather than exceptions.

For every person like you who needs cheap seasons for their job, there is someone else who equally needs cheap day returns.

I'm not convinced that everyone needs to pay exactly the same price as everyone else for their tickets (you could argue that commuters should pay less because they are a secure income stream or because they are likely to be the most economically active taxpayers in our society - or you could argue that they should pay more because it is their demand to travel peak time that means that extra stock is needed that is not fully utilitised the rest of the day so can never pay for itself).  But when an annual season is 4.5 times cheaper per day than an open return, something needs to be done to bring them closer in price. 

And I am sorry GaryM, but ^33 per day to travel peak time from Bath to London (more than 200 miles at high speed) is a bargin whatever way you look at it. 

sensible pricing might be something more like:

off peak return ^40
peak return ^60
off peak season ^25 per day
peak season ^45 per day
advanced purchase return ^25 to ^35

Don't forget that most rail users have cars, so they are still paying for maintenance/insurance AND the train fare.

All I can say to this is... eh? If a season isn't a discounted fare, then what on earth is it?

And moonrakerz has neatly covered the one about the real costs of motoring - though I should add that the AA route planner gives its best Bath-London road route as 116 miles - and that's never mind all the fuel you would burn stuck in the endless queues along the M4 around Reading and Heathrow of a morning.

As already stated, this thread is about seat reservations and while I have my own views on fare costs, I'm not going to specifically comment on them any more in this particular thread. If you want to go off-topic and start talking about actual prices and what is / isn't value for money or what is / isn't discounted then please start a new thread and I will happily join the discussion in that one :) Or maybe a moderator would like to split the off-topic cost related posts from this thread into a new one so we can just continue with them.

Anyway, back to the actual topic of seat reservations if anyone has anything more to add...

:)

My personal view is that no-extra-charge seat reservations are something of a privilege which are almost inevitable prone to distortion in their use / uptake precisely because the (ab)user of the system suffers no penalty at all when he / she doesn't take up the facilities earmarked for him / her, to the detriment of others who would love to use those facilities. And I find it deeply ironic that these free reservations are given away on the cheapest of fares ... not the cheaper rate fares to regular customers (season tickets) but the one-off discounted journeys.

I think we've established that there isn't the ground work information available about just how big a problem  reserved seats which are not taken up can be.   We know it's a problem with the heart (I feel it too - with you on this one Gary), but there's no data for the head that lets any substantive ideas be evaluated, even if it was in anyone's interest to actually evaluate and implement any changes - I don't see people moving their  custom away from FGW because of problems with reserved seats, so I don't see any"stick" available to wave.  As a "carrot" - potential increase in income that people optionally spend - I wonder about including a seat reservation option for all First class travel journeys and eliminating it in standard.

GaryM asks for one of the moderators to split the thread.   Hmm - there are some posts which are very clearly on fares but there are many (such as this one) which look at the reservations and fares issues which are interlinked, and it would be a braver person than me to try to decide which goes where. And such a split could add in a bias in favour of those posters who don't wish for / see a relationship between the fare level someone pays and whether they should be able to reserve a seat. Besides, I'm not a politician who wants to make his mark by meddling  ;D in this case in a perfectly reasonable thread.  So - sorry - no split.  But, please, I do endorse GaryM's request to keep this thread (if it continues) such that all posts have some link to seat reservation issues.

I started a(nother) fare comparison thread more recently at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4520.0
and that may be a good point to continue / resume any pure fare discussions

Me?  I'm more concerned with getting TransWilts trains at sensible times and frequency ... let alone whether or not I get a seat, and what I have to pay.  I'm invited to a meeting in Swindon this evening. If I go by train, it would have been on the 07:17 (left half an hour ago) and I would be back at 06:40 tomorrow morning.

giving free seat reservations away with advanced fares shouldn't on the face of it be a problem because advanced fares ought to only be available in significant numbers on less busy trains which ought to have enought seats for everyone anyway.  Commuters in general will be travelling on peak trains which should have few seat reservations.

In practice it doesn't seem to work like that because FGW apepar to offer advanced fares on all trains including peak time ones (where the saving is often minimal)

...............AND - don't forget all the subsidies you are paying the rail companies via your income tax, VAT, etc, etc, etc, whether you have a car or not ! 

It is almost impossible to work out the true cost of rail or road travel.

Am I missing something here ? Who is going "off topic" and starting to talk "about actual prices" ?   ;) ;) ;)

Posts from GaryM:-

"If we're going to start bringing cost into the equation then no, I don't think commuters get a bargain at all. Season ticket prices are extortionate and every year they go up by more than the rate of inflation"

"It wouldn't cost you ^33..."

"^33 a day to travel is questionable but ^146 a day is a complete and utter rip-off."

Off you go then Gary !

Maybe you'd like to read the WHOLE thread properly first before accusing ME of going off-topic in my own thread. If you're not sure then please see post #67 in this thread where you will see who started the "off-topic" pricing comments. I simply gave a response (rather than just ignoring it) and as you will see at the bottom of my response (post #69), I said that any pricing discussion should be done in a new topic. The pricing continued to be discussed / argued so I re-iterated that I would refuse to comment any further on pricing issues in this particular thread (post #74).

Oh dear, oh dear, who can't take a little friendly jibe then ?

The idea of this thread was to try and create some constructive discussion about seat reservations and not about it being for people to start "attacking" each other which is what it seems to have descended into :-[

Gary, I think the " ;) ;) ;)" was to show it was a bit of a wind-up, I wouldn't go taking it to heart.

Thanks, SDA.

Just as a bit of background, the admin team here have actually discussed this topic: we reached a decision to 'leave things as they are for now', on the basis of two main considerations:


We also feel that, as the general mood on this interesting, and well-debated, topic is fairly good-natured, we'd prefer it to stay that way.

Thanks,

Chris.  ;)

Yesterday evening, I caught the 21:01 Swindon to Chippenham ... a graphic illustration of some of the issues raised and discussed in this thread

Virtually every seat in the coach I was in was "reserved" ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/res_forest.jpg)

... even though there was a fair proportion of empty seats.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/res_empty.jpg)

This one labelled "London to Bristol Temple Meads", but unoccupied when I joined the train at Swindon.  Mine to use for sure, but it would have been interesting if the person with the reservation had come back and said "but I just left it to go to the buffet / loo".

Perhaps a new aside ... how can the long distance solo traveller fulfill the call of nature on a crowded train without loosing his seat?

One issue now with advance tickets is that you can't get a refund so there is little reason to inform the TOC you are not traveling so that your reservation can be canceled if this is even possible.  As I suggested in another post I would make advance fares trains specific but not seat specific with an optional reservation for ^5.  If you decide not to travel you could then claim a refund for the reservation.

Good idea.  As memtioned by "Industry Insider" in the current Rail, there is no reason why computer technology can't be used to let you cancel and remake reservations until an hour or two before departure. 

Many thanks !

By asking a fellow traveller "Could you watch out for my seat please, I'm just going to the bog/buffet".

It isn't exactly a new problem - I recall succesfully having such a conversation in the early seventies...  :)

ALternatively for those solo travellers who already try and occupy four seats round a table, just spread out your laptop and paperwork a bit more... :o

Paul

I've had that before, It's really annoying >:( I tend to leave my fleece on the seat, which normally works.

In First Class it's not normally an issue, except at weekends, but only if they cancel the service infront!

Advance tickets should have a free reservation, for those of you who are organised enough to book in advance then so you should get the best deal and a reserved seat! most commuters in the West actually commute on advance tickets!

Better still, when travelling with family, occupy the remaining three seats, ensuring that you direct the younger child to the window seat adjacent to the solo traveller (notice how they always sit in the aisle seat). Get the playing cards out, and wait and see how long before table hogging laptop computer and owner decides they are better off somewhere else, thus releasing the fourth seat for Dad.

Worked a treat recently when travelling from Nailsea to Reading on the 0746.     

...because all solo travellers are obviously vermin...???!

Think that's a little harsh on people travelling by themselves  ;)

It's a strange feature of the reservation system that when buying the very cheap advance fares early on in the booking process you often seem to get allocated table seating, without asking for it (I'd actually prefer the airline seating). And don't forget that those travelling on advance tickets are technically obliged to occupy their designated seat.

I don't agree.  If reservations are free for advance tickets then there is absolutely no incentive cancel your reservation is the tickets are not refundable.  I object to getting told what seat I must sit in and don't like the way TOCs are trying to force people to book in advance to travel at an affordable price.  It has been claimed that the Super Saver ticket was scrapped to make way for these cheap advance fares and all this has done is fill the trains up with reservations that are not always taken and made the cost higher for people that do not want to be dictated to when they must travel, which seat they must sit in or are unable to book in advance.  It could also be argued that commuters are completely not what advance tickets are intended for.

not at all, the advance fares are rediculously cheap, FAR cheaper than the old supersaver would be now if it had survived, if you want a rediculously cheap ticket then I think it's quite reasonable to be told what seat to sit in! lets see ^81 off-peak single just so I can sit (or stand) where I like or ^15 advance where I have to sit next to another human??? let me think?????

Sorry Zoe, methinks you have lost the plot somewhere along the line.

Advance tickets have NOT "made the cost higher for people that do not want to be dictated to". In fact, advance fares actually help to keep anytime prices down !
If you object to being "told where to sit" or to be exact, where not to sit, travel at peak times and pay the highest fare - if you can actually find a seat !

The standard anytime fare is the fare. Off peak, advance, etc, etc are just that - cheaper ticket to get people to use rolling stock that otherwise would be empty. The TOCs calculate how many "cheap" passengers they can carry and the numbers are controlled by mandatory seat reservations. I really don't see what is so outlandish about that.
If you would like everyone to have a "free and unreserved" seat then the trains would have to be three times longer that they are now. Then the TOCs would have bigger empty trains to try and fill during the day - of course, to do this, they would be offering even more and cheaper advance tickets !

PS: who do you think would pay for all these extra trains anyway ?

Yes they have, one reason given for scrapping the Super Saver was to make way for these cheaper advance fares.  Advance fares are a way of controlling the numbers of people that travel and justifying ridiculous Anytime fares for people that have no choice but to use them on the grounds that people could have had a cheaper journey had they booked in advance.

It should also be noted that off peak fares have risen considerably in the last few years again forcing people that do not want to be dictated to a train and seat to pay more.

"Advance fares (and their reservations) are a way of controlling the numbers of people that travel" who would probably not travel if advance fares were not available ........... on trains that would normally carry very few passengers during the off peak periods. If these seats were not used to generate extra revenue the the cost of anytime fares would have to rise to pay for the trains not generating revenue during the rest of the day - simple economics !

I am about to book advance tickets to do Warminster-Birmingham-Warminster. Anytime ret fare is ^54.10 (on a railcard), using advance tickets and splitting the journey the fare will be ^14.40 ret (Actually ^11.55 with my ^5 off voucher -why ? work that one out - no prizes for correct answer !). If these advance fares were not available - we would NOT use the train, we would drive. We therefore are going to give FGW ^28.80 instead of nothing - your strange logic says that this ^28.80 will cause the ^54.10 fare to increase !! The train will still run whether I am on it or not: somebody paid a lot of money to buy that train, the diesel will have to be paid for, the crew paid for, the track paid for, etc, etc.................

"It should also be noted that off peak fares have risen considerably in the last few years again forcing people that do not want to be dictated to a train and seat to pay more"

So ? So has everything. You have a choice. If you want not to be dictated to - pay full fare and take your chances then ! I had a choice when I bought my car, an Aston Martin or a Ford - I bought the Ford - should I be calling for Aston Martins to be banned because they increase the price of Fords, Hondas, Fiats ?

I really don't understand your use of the word "dictated" - I am dictated to when I am told to drive my car on the left. Plus, it does seem to make pretty good sense, I do hope the driver of that 44 ton Scania coming towards me thinks the same ! The use of reservations on advance tickets make equally good sense.

Is generating extra revenue that important?  If the trains were actually run as a public service and not the for benefit of shareholders I doubt it would be so important.  The cost of off peak tickets could easily be reduced if it was not about making as much money out of customers as possible.  More people would then use the train without the need to book in advance.

The current policy of forcing people to book in advance to be able to travel at an affordable price is encouraging car use.  You don't have to book a car journey in advance and you can travel when you want, if you want more people to use the train then there needs to be an affordable walk-on option.

I am so glad that I led you in that direction and you responded accordingly. Just who do you think pays for the railways ? "them", "the government", "Father Christmas" or who ? WE, the people pay for them, directly through tickets and indirectly through taxes.

You state that the railways should be run as a "public service". I am afraid I am old enough to remember a nationalised "public service" railway - it was pretty dreadful, "public service" died with Dr Beeching, just leaving a totally clapped out rail network which we are still suffering from. I really don't fancy that again.
The present system is far from perfect, but it is a small step in the right direction.

I really don't know which world you live in but it certainly isn't the real one !

If the railways were still in the public sector though at least what you pay would not be going into the pockets of shareholders and so there would not need to for a policy of making as much money out of the customers as possible.

Tax-payer subsidy is not a limitless pit of money to be squandered on supporting trains but the aim should  be to ensure value for money for the taxpayer not lowest total cost.

senario 1.
Railway A carries 100 people and cost ^100 to run.  Fares raise ^50 and subsidy raises ^50. Total cost to tax-payer ^50.  Subsidy per passenegr 50p

senario 2.
The government decides to go down the public service route and cuts all fares by 25% and runs extra services.  Twice as many people travel as a result and the cost of running the railway increases by 50% (note that it does not double because some costs are fixed regardless of how many passengers are carried).  The railway now costs ^150 to run.  Fares raise ^75 and the total subsidy is ^75. Total cost to taxpayer ^75.  Subsidy per passenger 37.5p.     

senario 3.the government privatises railway A.  The new management raises fares by 50%.  35% fewer people travel as a result.  Total cost of running the railway falls only slightly because many cost are fixed and BR wasn't as inefficient as the private company hoped..  Total cost ^95, farebox= ^56.25, subsidy = ^38.75.  subsidy per passenger = 51.6p

senario 3 gives a lower cost to the taxpayer but poorer value to the taxpayer. 

This conversation has moved from a sensible discussion regarding advance tickets and their associated reservations into one centered around your personal political dogma and it is therefore pointless pursuing it any further.

I would query the greater costs of your scenario 2, Tim.

If this were to applied to "British Rail" as of now, could the extra services be run ? Would twice as many people travel as a result ?
The current fixed infrastructure and rolling stock could not cope, so either the passenger targets would not be met or huge sums of (taxpayers !) money would have to be spent to upgrade the entire system  = subsidy ^1, ^2, ^3 ^? .... per passenger ??

I think Zoe's is saying that he would prefer to have less advance fares and cheaper Off-Peak fares.

This would encourage "walk-up" travel and fill Off-Peak trains. TOCs would make more cash, but passengers would be happier that they are not being ripped off.

And if that happened then everyone would just travel on the first Off-peak train of the day! as for saying that you don't want your money to go into shareholders pockets then what do you think happens when you buy something from Tesco or B&Q or McDonalds etc.... it may as well go into shareholders pockets than the treasury! Advance has also opened up first class to more people.

-tongue in cheek mode on -

hmmmm - and that is a good thing?  For us who always paid season or walk on?  Less space?

- tongue in cheek mode off -

Then keep the off peak fare the same and introduce a super off peak fare for the less busy trains, anyone remember the Super Saver?  It was not valid at the most busy times but you still had the choice of many less busy trains and were not forced to sit in a specific seat.
I avoid using 2 of the 3 companies above but the point is that there are alternatives so you don't have to use them.  If you want to go from Devon to London by train in 3 hours then you have no choice but to use First Great Western and they are in a position where they can set high prices to make as much money out of the customers as possible.

Fly???? I think your arguement is pretty flawed really and your just scraping the barrel!

agreed to a point, but advance first has but bums on empty seats and probably attracted people that wouldn't otherwise travel.

Yes - introduce more Super-Off Peak fares, to allow affordable - but flexible - travel on the least full trains of the day.

e.g. London to B'ham - a Super Off-Peak ticket gives you a choice of all the trains 11am - 3pm and after 8 pm. With a train every 20 mins, and an affordable ticket like this, people would flock to the railway.

People have flocked to the railway for advance tickets!

yes they have - but on full trains which makes the lives of the people who would use them anyway miserable.

As much as I would like advance fairs on peak trains (god knows it would have benefited me over the last few months - odd trips to hemel in peak with no season) I understand why this doesnt happen on morning peak.

Buthaving it on evening peak means I get a good ride into work but then enter a cattle car on the way home - espcially with some OPCOs habit of declassifying first class!  At least FGW resist if possible!

But hey - I'm a long distance commuter so I dont count

its the off-peak trains that are full due to advance!

Evening peak hour trains?

Morning trains seem reasonably free from advance

But evening peak - advance rules ok

I am not completely against advance fares, they certainly do have their place but I don't think this should be at the expense of affordable walk-on travel.  The cheapest walk-on fare from Newton Abbot to Paddington jumped from ^49 to ^63 in just 6 months due to this policy.

More people will flock to the railway with cheap walk up tickets than ones where they have to book in advance.

Someone could make a split second decision to travel from London to B'ham and they don't get punished for doing so!

With trains running at turn-up and go frequencies on that route, it's a bit of a contradiction that you have to book in advance to be able to afford to go on them.

Exactly. What is the benefit of the VHF timetable if you can't just catch the next train home when you meeting finishes?

Branston said: you can rip up the timetable!

No you can't - unless you want to pay over the nose, you have to select your train first! Contradictory.

As an interesting example of this subject, a colleague and I will be travelling from Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington next Wednesday.  Our employer has provided us with Anytime Return tickets (at ^149 each!), as we will definitely be catching the 08:30 from BRI, but we don't know which train we will be catching for the return from PAD, as we don't know how long our meeting will last.  However, despite this, we have been given seat reservations in Coach D on the 17:00 departure from PAD - when in fact we'll probably not be returning on that particular train.

As an aside - our tickets allow travel 'on any permitted route': is via Bristol Parkway a permitted route?

Yes, you may travel via any Bristol station.

You might even be able to go via Westbury, however don't quote me on that!!

Brilliant - thanks, devon_metro!  ;) :D ;D

Just had a look on fgw website and if you so wish you can take the scenic route via Westbury (maybe even Melksham)  :D

Yes Chris, Via Bristol Parkway on a London - Bristol Temple Meads ticket is permitted ;D

Update........

London
Nottingham
Manchester
Uxrbdige
Swindon
Rugby
Birmigham
Uxbridge
Stafford
Oxford
Putney
Reading
Belfast
Slough and New York 50/50

For the first time in years I have the unenviable prospect of working over xmas and new year including xmas eve and new years eve!  (God knows when I'm gonna pick up the Toikey and Goose since the weekend before is a bit early!).

Anyway, I digress.......I suspect even FC will be rammed on both those days - and I dont DO rammed.  Can I make a seat reservation?  How much will I get shafted for the privilege?  Are there any other days in that period where I should consider doing this if possible!

Yes, I suspect best done at a staffed ticket office, although it may be possible on the phone to telesales?

I think you'll need to show your season ticket to the clerk, and the reservation will cost you ^5 a pop.

New Years Eve isn't too busy in my experience, but Christmas Eve certainly is (I've got my Heathrow - Carmarthen reservation made in FC already for Xmas Eve...hurray for advance first class tickets). Be aware that on both evenings services will start to wind down much earlier than a normal day (around 2000 from memory).

If I were to book a ticket online and ask for a seat reservation I do not get to choose the seat so if I ask for a table near the window then I may end up in an airline on the ailse :-(

If I do it in the ticket office....can I choose a seat for certain?

Scenario - i'm going to liverpool on Saturday.  Going via Crewe - not too bothered about a seat reservation for this leg since the 07:13 from ludlow is fairly empty and I would upgrade on the london midland connection or virgin connection in the unlikely event they bother to come around to take my cash.

however returning, I will be on the 17:13 from chester direct to ludlow (shopping at the outlet mall) and as i'm likely to have several bags, and I know from experience it can be pretty full of saturday shoppers, I'm thinking of getting a seat reservation.

If I do it at WOS on the way home, can they guarantee a window seat at a table?

You may not be offered a table seat if your travelling on your own as, and quite rightly inmy opinion, table seats are sometimes only reserved if your travelling in a group/family. It may be down to the discretion of the person in the booking office

And for those of us who want to get some work done?

Which is precisely why I want a table seat

Note - don't tell me to pay for first class if I want a table - I would, but arriva snails wales do not have such a luxury

I think that the stock used by ATW (class 175? - the "mini-adelantes") have loads of table seats anyway.  if the booking clerk is minded to use descretion to deny you a table seat I would point this out. 

the chester train is either a 175 or a 158.

the 175s have six tables in each carriage I think - the 158s seem to have less.

The 1713 from Chester is always heaving as far as shrewsbury because of shopping............Last time I did not get a seat at a table....

On the flip side, when travelling with a group of friends, there is nothing more annoying than seeing 1 person with laptop & work spread out over a table. Its often very satisfying sitting down regardless.

So why does your right to sit together outweigh my right to do some work......

What is even more annoying than that though, is when one non-connected party at a table sees it as a place to keep their luggage as they dont wish to be parted from it (its not the crown jewels) and take up half of the table with a bag and prevent anyone else from using it

Sometimes it is essential for families to sit together otherwise young children can get worried if they can't see other members of family for example. Also, what gives you the right to a table yourself forcing a group to become dispersed? There are two sides to every story but if the choice was for an individual or a group to have a table, then the group wins hands down in my opinion.

Hear, hear.

On a few occasions I've been travelling with the family on an HST we've struggled to find a table (not surprisingly these days). But we've often found a table with one business type person (usually with laptop etc spread out) and three empty seats.

So the two children and one adult have occupied the remaining three seats, with the other adult sitting nearby. That way, the kids can get the cards/pass the pigs/other games out, together with the obligitary fizzy drinks and crisps that don't really balance well on an airline style tip up table.

We're entitled to take those seats, and we'll continue to do so if it makes our journey more comfortable.
If it makes aforementioned business person think twice before occupying one of only two tables in the coach then that's up to them.
 

Just ask for one, I'm sure they'll oblige.

What's wrong with someone who wants to work? Have you tried working in an airline seat?

Yes, I understand it's frustrating for groups, but it is just a fact of life today that tables are scare. ALL people have the "right" to one. If you really want one, reserve.

Does it make any difference if its a Student trying to get an assignment done for submission - which is the guise I will be in on Saturday as I am going to Liverpool for a tutorial and meeting mother for lunch and shopping afterwards......

On one occasion the occupant very genorously vacated their seat even before we made an attempt to sit down.

On the last occasion we flew back to Gatwick from the USA, so reserving a seat would have been rather hit and miss as to which train we actually caught. As it turned out our reserved seats would have been two days before we actually returned home, but that's another story which was well documented at the time.

So reserving seats isn't always the answer, particularly as when we've tried, we've never managed to reserve a table.    

Er... no, all we're doing is sitting in 3 vacant seats, and presuming that the fourth person doesn't occupy the whole of the table. Doesn't matter whether it's a student, a business person, or Belle de Jour updating her blog.....  Actually, come to think of it, that might make a difference, as Mrs R might decide airline seats have their merits after all.  ;D

But do you expect you children to occupy more than 3/4 of the space?

My laptop happily sits in 1/4 of a 158/175 table - not much extra space but it does fit into 1/4 of one (I once got a ruler out in an argument)

So if I could use my laptop on my 1/4 of table I would be happy - I would not be happy if sticky sweets/drinks other crud encroached on my space  or if they were behaving like small animals but then I would not like that even if they were elsewhere.

And the reason I can use 1/4 of a table and not an airline seat is angle of screen - it is impossible to open a laptop screen on an airline seat and actually see what is one the screen

No, three seats would equal 75% of available table space, nor would we resort to rulers, so long as your stuff wasn't spread out across the whole table. 

The kids don't behave like animals either. Indeed, when travelling alone with them several years ago when they were about 5 and 3 someone opposite complimented me on how well behaved they had been on the 90 minute journey. I didn't tell them about the valium of course.....

Three quick points from me:  ;)

1. Any one individual at a four-seater table is entitled to no more than their quarter of that table's surface area;

2. John R's children (I've met them, albeit very briefly!) are models of good behaviour;

3. For further information on Belle de Jour, I can only suggest you google. :o ::)

The most irritating thing which for some reason happened to me when I went up to Birmingham International on the 07:01 Service from Westbury... Is to occupy a seat at table i'm sat at in First Class, when there are about 10 other empty tables available...

Trout occupied one of these... Then grumpy businessman gets on at Pewsey and also occupies trouts' table... little does Businessman know that trout has ordered a Vegetarian Breakfast from the Travelling Chef just before Pewsey... Businessman proceeds to take up 90% of the table, as trout is only using his MP4 Player... ;D Trouts' Breakfast arrives just before Newbury... Pi$$ed off Businessman vacates the table and selects one of the other 8 empty tables... Clearly the thought of runny egg splatter across some important health and safety document was unacceptable :D

Trout then alights train at Reading ;D

Why didn't he choose an empty table first off...?? Commuters are strange beings... :) (tounge in cheek of course ;) )

Very similar to the two I saw tonight sharing a two seater table when the rest of F just had me in it north of Oxford.  No, they were not connected as far as I could tell and one got off at pershore and one at WOS. 

Why?  Maybe it was busy until Reading - given the number of people falling out I suspect it was but why not move at Reading!  Even then there was more space to be had if you distributed yourselves properly.

However - to go back to the original topic - the very nice man at WOS tonight made me a reservation for saturday on a facing table seat on the train home......as long as it stays booked a 175 I'll be ok.  He was reluctant to do it but I think he recognized me as the idiot from worcester

Just as an aside, if you're reserving for a journey between Swansea and Carmarthen on a 175 you need to request the opposite direction from the one you want to face in, since the CMN/MFH services reverse at Swansea (and the MFH ones reverse again at Carmarthen...)

'cos if every individual has an equal right to the tables a group of 4 has 4 times as much right to the table as a person on their own?

The Chester train is usually a 175 if its going to Cardiff Central but a 158 if its going to Birmingham International I think?

Thats correct... :)

Chester > Cardiff Central is normally a Class 175... Anything to Birmingham New Street or Bhm Int is normally 158 or 2x 158's

I was fed up of getting on busy commuter trains from Swindon - Reading, especially coming up to Christmas and not being able to find a seat. This got worse with the new timetable. The previous train was made first stop Paddington (after Swindon). Day ticket holders often had reserved seats, so after bringing this to fgw's attention I was told that it is possible to reserve seats with a season ticket.
You can email forward@firstgroup.com with your travel requirements and photocard number and they will sort you out.

This works for seasons that are registered - i.e. NOT with weekly tickets unfortunately.

I've just bought a really cheap Twyford-Swansea AP ticket (^13.00), and as such have been given a seat reservation.

However the seat allocated is fairly poor (corridor seat, no window alignment)- am I required as a part of the AP discount to sit in my allocated seat, or can I go and sit in any unreserved one? (for the sake of fairness I would remove the card from my reserved seat)

Thanks.

Technically yes

In reality

Unless its sardines at dawn

Nope so long as you are on the right train

Just remove the ticket from your seat so some other person can sit there

removal of seat reservations leads you liable to a fine however, despite it being issued chances 0.

As FA says; technically you should but it will be fine to sit wherever you want so long as it's the correct class of travel and isn't already reserved.

Potentially asking a silly question here, but how do you know...? It may depend on which of the two different HST seating layouts you're travelling on (high density with 2 fixed tables vs low density with 4 fixed tables) which you won't know until it pulls into the station. And the seating layouts in different cars are different too (B,D,E all similar but A and C different).

I suppose with the service being to Swansea, in theory it is supposed to be a low density set so you could make an educated guess

I know it would probably be LD in theory but from my observations on Swansea services since the HSTs were refurbished there doesn't really seem to be much rhyme or reason to the allocation of LD vs HD sets, and indeed many diagrams include both duties that you would expect to be LD and HD sets (I have a feeling for example that there's an Oxford-London HST that gets to Paddington and then heads for Carmarthen).

The penalty for the unauthorised removal of the reservation ticket is ^200 !

True, but has it ever been enforced? In the real world, I really don't think that a train manager is going to (a) notice or (b) care if you remove the reservation ticket from your reserved seat, provided that there aren't any other reservations printed on if for further along the journey that you would be removing too!

Obviously pinching the ticket from someone else's seat and sitting it is a rather different matter.

I would argue that a passenger has an implied authorisation to remove the ticket from their own seat.

Tim

As long as it is their own seat.  Quite a few times they get the wrong coach / train or seat number.

That I can easily believe, having been ordered out of my seat twice by a rude pensioner (not the same one both times, I hasten to add) who demanded that I move despite the fact that they had the wrong carriage. On neither occasion did they even have the decency to apologize when I finally managed to make clear to them that they were in the wrong place!

All Laira allocated sets are 'Low Density'. Old Oak Common sets are 'high density' and some contain mini buffets.

Certainly won't be sardines- travelling at lunchtime on a Thursday.

I'm booked in coach B, so went to have a look on the HST I was on yesterday. There was a micro buffet in coach F, so I guess that was an HD set. TBH forgot that there were HD and LD sets around.

Do the seat reservations still have your surname printed on them? I'm sure I would then be "authorised" to remove it.

No - surnames no longer appear on seat reservations: Data Protection issues, apparently.

Only LA01 to LA16 are low density. LA60 - 64 and LA71 - LA76 are high density.

I very rarely sit in my reserved seats.  Gave up doing so long ago, as most of the time my reserved seats are either facing the wrong direction, table seats, or aisle seats.   So I usually just find a suitable window seat which is unreserved and the adjacent seat also free, and sit there instead.

I don't ever remember surnames appearing on seat reservations.  When abouts was this stopped?

You do still get them with surnames on though it's generally when something manual has been booked such as group travel or journey care. Name appear on my reservation summary, in the computer (XC Voyager) and on manual labels if they are printed. Not however on the scrolling screens (takes forever for them to scroll anyway). I'm guessing FGW would be similar as the reservations come from the same database.

It annoys me that people sit in (my) allocated reserved seats. Especially if you have been allocated a seat already. And particularly when the Paddington to Swansea train has little seating capacity left for whatever reason. Then when embarking at Reading or wherever one has to get into an exchange about how you're sitting in my seat. Invariably they have loads of luggage or are a few sandwiches short of a picnic and I end up somewhere other than my allocated seat. I can't be bothered telling the TM most of the time (if they come round)

Why issue seat reservations if they are not adhered to? As train companies are so fond of telling us the booking in advance system is a bit like airlines. Hence if that airline had alloacted me a seat I would expect to sit in it. On trains however around 20% of the time I am not in my allocated seat.

How much does it cost to print out seat reservations? How much money could be saved? How long does it take to put the reservations in place etc etc? Seems like a complete waste of manhours and paper to me.

Other TOCs should follow SWT's excellent example and just do away with seat reservations completely. Think of the money the TOCs would save. Get on a train, find a seat and sit in it! Having to watch people faff about all the time looking for their reserved seat when there is a carriage of unreserved seats they could sit in. You just want to say 'just sit down will you!'

I'm sure it's been mentioned here before that it would also cut down on delaying services as whilst people are looking for their reserved seats other passengers can't move down the train meaning passengers waiting on the platform can't board the train thus delaying the service. Places like Reading would be a good example I suspect.

And before anyone mentions about Granny needing a seat, if she is unfortunate enough to be travelling XC, the chances of her getting anywhere near her reserved seat at times would be pretty slim unless Granny was on the train at the start of the journey in which case she could take her pick of where to sit.

I disagree with that simply because of the reason of commuters versus leisure travellers. Commuters will charge onto a train for a seat (probably a table seat) travelling as far as Reading/Swindon etc. leaving those with luggage, kids etc. to struggle on finding few seats dspite having tickets booked for weeks and travelling further afield having to stand for a large chunk, if not for the whole journey. This would ultimately lead to many people deciding not to use the railway.

I will agree though that local services could probably do without reservations but the problem is defining a local service as would people class Cardiff to Portsmouth as a local service or not?