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Title: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: bradshaw on May 24, 2024, 16:24:45 Quote Conversion of some Siemens Class 450 EMUs to battery/third rail bi-modes for use on the West of England line is being considered, Modern Railways understands. From todays Modern Railways newsletterTitle: Re: Class 459 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: grahame on May 24, 2024, 16:33:02 Quote Conversion of some Siemens Class 450 EMUs to battery/third rail bi-modes for use on the West of England line is being considered, Modern Railways understands. From todays Modern Railways newsletterHow far from Worting would they get on Battery (and would they be able to get back?) Title: Re: Class 459 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: eightonedee on May 24, 2024, 18:39:43 Let's hope that it's more successful than the class 769.
I would have thought that class 444 (4 across in standard, 3 across in first) would have been more appropriate for conversion for a service of this length, but I guess that the "outer suburban" 450s are more likely to become surplus and available for use if and when the long-awaited Aventras finally enter service. I wonder if Brush/Wabtec will be bidding for the conversion contract........ Title: Re: Class 459 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: grahame on May 24, 2024, 18:45:43 The Tweet (is that Xeet now?) says "West of England Line" and not "Exeter". Could the 450s be aimed at the Waterloo to Salisbury service, all stations from Basingstoke?
Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: bradshaw on May 24, 2024, 19:10:25 Full Article available to subscribers
Quote Conversion of some Siemens Class 450 EMUs to battery/third rail bi-modes for use on the West of England line is being considered, Modern Railways understands. The modified EMUs, of which South Western Railway already has 127 units used across its network, could be a replacement for the Class 158/159 DMUs currently deployed on the route, which are now 30 years old. The Waterloo to Exeter route is electrified as far as Worting Junction, west of Basingstoke, from where the non-electrified stretch to Exeter runs for nearly 122 miles. It is understood SWR and Siemens are working on the concept, which is reported to have found favour with the Department for Transport. With the Office of Rail and Road looking unfavourably on extensions of the third rail due to safety reasons, it is likely an alternative decarbonisation solution for the West of England line will be needed. The Railway Industry Association’s decarbonisation proposals, published in April (p9, last month), suggest electrification of the route as far west as Yeovil, with battery power used for the remaining distance to Exeter. RIA proposes fast charge stations to top up power in on-board batteries, to be located at strategically selected points along routes which are not conventionally electrified. SWR’s ‘15x’ DMUs are due a C6 overhaul next year, which will almost certainly need to proceed given there are no replacements for them currently available. This could see them remaining in service until the early 2030s, by when it is hoped a replacement solution would be available. Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: PhilWakely on May 25, 2024, 07:51:26 I would be surprised if a battery powered 450 could manage the stop-start pattern over the severe gradients of The Mule
Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: broadgage on May 25, 2024, 10:23:28 Stop/start operation should present little problem since with regenerative braking the battery is charged during braking rather than braking wasting energy as heat in brakes. Also saves wear on brakes and maintenance thereof.
With modern batteries I would expect sufficient range to reach even Exeter, especially if charging could be achieved at the terminus and at selected stops. The elfansafety could probably accept short lengths of conductor rail if centrally placed and only energised when in use. Existing power supplies to most larger stations should be able to charge at 100 KW, ten times that rate with local grid upgrades. My main concerns are not technical, but the fact that these are suburban trains with a fit out not suited to long distance services. Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: bobm on May 25, 2024, 12:49:05 Most, if not all, Waterloo services shunt out to New Yard at Exeter and layover for around half an hour, so any charging could be done there. Whether that would be sufficient to get the unit back to Basingstoke, I don't know.
Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: broadgage on May 25, 2024, 13:35:29 Most, if not all, Waterloo services shunt out to New Yard at Exeter and layover for around half an hour, so any charging could be done there. Whether that would be sufficient to get the unit back to Basingstoke, I don't know. Provided that fast charging was available, that should work fine. Presuming a 2000 KWH battery and 1000KW charging input, that would give a 50% charge. It would be sensible to provide charging also in the relevant platforms, in order that a unit making a shorter layover could still receive some charge. Some services wait at SALISBURY for some minutes and charging at that place seems sensible. Providing 1000 KW would require a new 11KV circuit and dedicated transformer. Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: eightonedee on May 25, 2024, 14:24:34 By coincidence, this Green Signals episode has just come up on my You Tube feed:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8J0ONy3Go, the relevant item on Hitachi's plans to trial battery bi-mode class 802s being between 19-40 and 33-17.
At 24-52, it is stated that the anticipated range on battery power would be 80-100 miles. Hitachi also indicate that they are aiming to swap out some diesel engines/generators on their trains with batteries of similar weight. Clearly, in the case of any class 450s the battery weight would all be additional to the current basic train weight. Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: Clan Line on May 25, 2024, 15:36:48 My main concerns are not technical, but the fact that these are suburban trains with a fit out not suited to long distance services. Oh ye of little faith ...... of course they are suitable ! I daresay GWR could provide lots of "evidence" that 165/166s on CDF to PMH have been a great success ...................... ::) ::) Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: PhilWakely on May 25, 2024, 16:55:40 My main concerns are not technical, but the fact that these are suburban trains with a fit out not suited to long distance services. My main concerns ARE technical. The original intention, back in the 1990s, was to replace the loco-hauled stock with 158s, but they would not have produced sufficient acceleration for the stop-start between long, steep banks on The Mule. Hence, the 158 designation was provided with bigger, more powerful engines, creating the 159. I have read elsewhere that a GWR Castle set would not cope with The Mule. Given that the addition of batteries would add significant weight, what further modifications would be needed to create and maintain the required performance? Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: anthony215 on May 25, 2024, 18:46:52 Heard battery fitted class's 350/2's were being looked at with them fitted with shoes to use 3rd rail.
The issue is the long gap from Bassingstoke to Exeter. A push to extend 3rd rail at least to Salisbury was bring considered I've seen mentioned elsewhere Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: eightonedee on May 25, 2024, 21:38:26 Apologies all, there's a material mistake in my previous post on this thread - the range of the proposed Hitachi battery conversions on battery power is 80-100 km, not miles. So if the 450 conversions have similar range, they'll just about manage Yeovil to Exeter St Davids. Perhaps there might be some regeneration between Central and St Davids for the down trains, but for up trains......?
It does seem odd that NR are prepared to provide new 3rd rail electrification as far as Salisbury, but no further. If the safety of third rail is a problem, but bi-modes are acceptable, perhaps OHL after Basingstoke? Surely the single and double line mix of the West of England Line is a cheaper electrification proposition than the GW Main Line, although I have no idea about the bridge and tunnel clearance problems that there might be. Come to think of it, extend the OHL from Southcote Junction to Basingstoke, and you have a second means of electric traction to Exeter. I think I have read that mixing 25kv OHL with 750v Third Rail gives rise to a load of problems. No doubt more knowledgeable forum members will enlighten (or disabuse) us! What colour crayon do you use for imaginary electrification routes, Grahame? Sure Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: grahame on May 25, 2024, 22:16:48 What colour crayon do you use for imaginary electrification routes, Grahame? Logic would be to use the colours that are already used in Mike Ball's excellent European Railway Atlas (http://www.wellho.net/pix/mbecolour.jpg) Oh - sorry - was that a rhetorical question :D Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: broadgage on May 25, 2024, 22:45:06 Heard battery fitted class's 350/2's were being looked at with them fitted with shoes to use 3rd rail. The issue is the long gap from Bassingstoke to Exeter. A push to extend 3rd rail at least to Salisbury was bring considered I've seen mentioned elsewhere Significant expansion of conductor rail schemes whilst in theory just about permitted is de facto prohibited by the elfansafety industry. Perhaps a case for 750 volt DC overhead electrification ? To Salisbury ? The reduced power available at this lower voltage could be supplemented by power from the battery when needed, with he battery being charged whenever the train is stopped, coasting, or otherwise not needing full power. Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: fullspeedahead on June 02, 2024, 17:33:49 I wonder if the Romsey-Southampton-Romsey-Salisbury rounders could be covered in this way. It would free up some stock. I'm not sure how much real-time charging would be possible on the Redbridge to Eastleigh section, but they do get a decent layover in Salisbury.
Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: PhilWakely on June 02, 2024, 18:35:19 Most, if not all, Waterloo services shunt out to New Yard at Exeter and layover for around half an hour, so any charging could be done there. Whether that would be sufficient to get the unit back to Basingstoke, I don't know. With current performance, sadly, many WAT-EXD services either terminate in the bay at EXC or turn straight around at EXD because of delays caused by single line operation - so there would be little or no time to recharge batteries :( Title: Re: Class 450 bimodes to Exeter? Post by: paul7575 on June 02, 2024, 20:11:23 A push to extend 3rd rail at least to Salisbury was bring considered I've seen mentioned elsewhere That is almost certainly out of date information. It was ever only a possible option in the 2009 electrification route utilisation strategy, but that document already stated a preference for OHLE from Basingstoke to Exeter. The ORR decision to avoid any future DC extensions came later.This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |