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All across the Great Western territory => Your rights and redress => Topic started by: nickswift99 on May 11, 2024, 22:04:57



Title: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 11, 2024, 22:04:57
The last Cheltenham Swindon train has been cancelled from Gloucester.

Passengers have been told they have no rights.

I’d welcome any advice to help those currently stranded at Gloucester.



Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: grahame on May 11, 2024, 23:03:23
The last Cheltenham London train has been cancelled from Gloucester.

Passengers have been told they have no rights.

I’d welcome any advice to help those currently stranded at Gloucester.



Neither JouneyCheck nor RealTimeTrains show a cancellation ... odd

If a train is cancelled because of Industrial Action, I agree, the customers have no rights  - however, if the cancellation is last train of the day and is at short notice, they would be very unwise not to help.  If they don't (and they do have some staff who are sticklers for the rules) I would suggest getting the name of the employee who has refused, then (well - (s)he's no help) make your own plans - as a sensible budget - and write and claim and explain to a director at GWR.    Tell us how you get on ...


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 12, 2024, 06:57:16
National Rail Conditions of Travel

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 12, 2024, 07:57:44
Thanks folks. The train in question was the 2130 Cheltenham to Swindon which was terminated at Gloucester.

Staff at Gloucester refused to help despite the passengers pointing out their rights and a conversation with GWR customer services.

In the end they were forced to arrange their own taxi (in excess of £250).

Will be sending a strongly worded complaint to get the taxi fare refunded, delay repay and an apology.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: Fourbee on May 12, 2024, 08:41:12
National Rail Conditions of Travel

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.
"where it reasonably can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting; I think that paragraph needs to be a lot more explicit about customers acquiring their own taxis and seeking reimbursement rather than TOCs "authorising" them to do so on an ad-hoc basis at present.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2024, 08:48:34
Thanks folks. The train in question was the 2130 Cheltenham to Swindon which was terminated at Gloucester.

Staff at Gloucester refused to help despite the passengers pointing out their rights and a conversation with GWR customer services.

In the end they were forced to arrange their own taxi (in excess of £250).

Will be sending a strongly worded complaint to get the taxi fare refunded, delay repay and an apology.

Real time trains confirms
Quote
This service is partially cancelled
This service was cancelled between Gloucester and Swindon due to an issue with the train crew (TG).

Yes, take to up with GWR and with more detail; in due course let us know how you get on.  This forum is a public board; GWR's team are likely to read / now be aware that there's an issue here. Do give them an opportunity to investigate, explain as well as "see the passengers right".    For those of us not there last night it sounds like it was very, very wrong and upsetting - however, we don't know was going on at the same time and it's important (IMHO ) to offer and opportunity to give background.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: bobm on May 12, 2024, 09:22:02
Although it would not help those wanting intermediate stations those aiming for Swindon could have got there by train.

Arriving at Gloucester at 21:40 there was a Cross Country service to Bristol Temple Meads at 22:05.  From there there’s the 23:30 to Swindon.

However if no one said that, it is understandable why the option wasn’t taken. 


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: GBM on May 12, 2024, 09:26:27
There was also this link concerning passenger assistance from this forum.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=28707.msg346294#msg346294
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-dispute-for-alternative-travel-expenses-industrial-action.263078/


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: Mark A on May 12, 2024, 09:27:38
Realtime trains lists several other latish cancelled trains last night at Gloucester too, not sure if any of those were also last services between various stations.

Mark

(Edit: removed the link to realtimetrains timetable for yesterday at Gloucester as, when posted, something strange was happening to it.)


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 13, 2024, 12:21:54
Although it would not help those wanting intermediate stations those aiming for Swindon could have got there by train.

Arriving at Gloucester at 21:40 there was a Cross Country service to Bristol Temple Meads at 22:05.  From there there’s the 23:30 to Swindon.

However if no one said that, it is understandable why the option wasn’t taken. 


Passengers didn't have that opportunity. The Swindon service sat at Gloucester and there were no announcements made until after the XC service had left. As other posters have commented, there were no other services heading south due to other cancellations.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2024, 17:17:18
You need to include that info (about it only been announced *after* the XC had gone) in your refund request.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: broadgage on May 14, 2024, 00:22:38
National Rail Conditions of Travel

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.
"where it reasonably can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting; I think that paragraph needs to be a lot more explicit about customers acquiring their own taxis and seeking reimbursement rather than TOCs "authorising" them to do so on an ad-hoc basis at present.
In my view, if the customer can arrange a taxi, then it could be argued that the TOC could also arrange the same taxi or an alternative. About the only circumstances under which the TOC could argue that they can not reasonably arrange alternative road transport would be general road closures due to blizzard conditions or flooding.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 14, 2024, 08:20:50
In this case it was Gloucester on a Saturday night, rather than a minor station with no available alternative transport.

Lots of taxis were available and even if GWR had an arrangement with a taxi provider in the wider region (say Bristol or Cheltenham), they wouldn't have had an issue sourcing one. However, they never tried because they refused to help their customers.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: Fourbee on May 14, 2024, 12:12:00
Has anyone on this forum or anyone they know had a TOC arrange overnight accommodation (i.e. not having to pay upfront and claim back later)?


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: ChrisB on May 14, 2024, 14:14:24
In this case it was Gloucester on a Saturday night, rather than a minor station with no available alternative transport.

Lots of taxis were available and even if GWR had an arrangement with a taxi provider in the wider region (say Bristol or Cheltenham), they wouldn't have had an issue sourcing one. However, they never tried because they refused to help their customers.

Of course, there are three issues - all possibly known answers in advance -
A taxi operator or taxi firm that have enough taxis available should they be needed. Just a one-vehicle operator is unlikely to be of much use when a train is cancelled.

That firm would need to be able to offer account facilities rather than pay cash at the end of a trip. That is usually the deal breaker.

Drivers willing to go as far as necessary. That may mean that driver only earns on that one one trip that takes several hours to make out & back. That is the next largest deal breaker - that drivers can earn more on local jobs especially on Friday/Saturday nights.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 14, 2024, 15:19:25
These days it’s mostly dealt with by First Travel Solutions AIUI.  They will coordinate buses/taxis nationally using operators that have signed up. 

I expect much like when you book taxis through many apps the drivers have a choice as to whether to accept or decline the booking and they will be offered the job in general order of proximity to it and when their current job is expected to be completed.

That would normally be arranged by the station staff liaising with Control who would contact FTS.

I think the days of trotting everyone down to the local taxi rank and picking drivers who want the job have largely gone now, unless in extremis.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: ChrisB on May 14, 2024, 15:29:58
It's still done in Banbury....but the taxi private-hire company there has to guarantee driver availability for x number of cars, plus the rank drivers need to guarantee a certain number on the rank from x to y times, 7 days a week if they want a badge.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 14, 2024, 17:11:31
It's still done in Banbury....but the taxi private-hire company there has to guarantee driver availability for x number of cars, plus the rank drivers need to guarantee a certain number on the rank from x to y times, 7 days a week if they want a badge.

Ah yes, to clarify I meant GWR managed stations (possibly other First Group ones as well?).  Other operators will have their own arrangements, which may well still use taxis off the rank as their main procedure, especially the smaller ones like Chiltern.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: johnneyw on May 14, 2024, 18:07:59
Has anyone on this forum or anyone they know had a TOC arrange overnight accommodation (i.e. not having to pay upfront and claim back later)?

Not a TOC but just prior to privatisation we had been to a wedding reception very near to Box Hill station but were intending to get back to Bristol that evening.  Arriving at the station in time for the last service that would get us back, we waited until well after the train was due.  Fortunately a phone box was nearby and I had sufficient two and ten pence coins in my pocket to (eventually) get through to BR.  Turned out that the last train was cancelled, I think due to vandalism on the line.  BR told us to return to the hotel where they would arrange for a taxi to take us to a hotel next to Paddington where they would arrange a room for us and our tickets would be valid for the early train back to Bristol.  They were as good as their word.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: plymothian on May 15, 2024, 08:39:31
See The Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007 on rail passengers’ rights and obligations [PRO] which fully became law in Great Britain (GB) on 4 December 2019 and recast in 2021.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-rail-passengers-rights-and-obligations-regulation-no-13712007/guidance-on-regulation-no-13712007-on-rail-passengers-right-and-obligations


Quote
Article 18: assistance to passengers in the event of delays (such as meals, possible alternative travel and hotel accommodation)

Passengers must be kept informed of the situation by the railway undertaking or by the station manager including current estimated departure and arrival times as soon as such information is available.

In the case of delays over 60 minutes, the passenger shall be offered free of charge:

    meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to the waiting time if these are available on the train or station or can be reasonably[footnote 1] supplied
    hotel or other accommodation and transport between the station and the accommodation in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, when physically possible
    transport from the train to the station if the train is blocked on the track, to an alternative departure point or the final destination of the service, where physically possible

Where the railway service cannot be provided, the railway undertakings shall provide alternative transport as soon as possible.

Where there is disruption, the railway undertaking shall certify the same on the ticket when requested by the passenger.

When discharging these duties, the railway undertaking shall pay particular attention to the needs of people with a disability and others with reduced mobility.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32021R0782

Quote
Article 19

10.   A railway undertaking shall not be obliged to pay compensation if it can prove that the delay, missed connection or cancellation was caused directly by, or was inherently linked with:

(a)
   

extraordinary circumstances not connected with the operation of the railway, such as extreme weather conditions, major natural disasters or major public health crises, which the railway undertaking, in spite of having taken the care required in the particular circumstances of the case, was unable to avoid and the consequences of which it was unable to prevent;

(b)
   

fault on the part of the passenger; or

(c)
   

the behaviour of a third party which the railway undertaking, in spite of having taken the care required in the particular circumstances of the case, was unable to avoid and the consequences of which it was unable to prevent, such as persons on the track, cable theft, on-board emergencies, law enforcement activities, sabotage or terrorism.

Strikes by the personnel of the railway undertaking, acts or omissions by another undertaking using the same railway infrastructure and acts or omissions of the infrastructure and station managers are not covered by the exemption referred to in point (c) of the first subparagraph





Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 15, 2024, 18:18:08
All valid points but if GWR have not got the capability to do this from Bristol, Gloucester or Cheltenham then you have to question their commitment to their obligations.

For context, I have had GWR arrange taxis from a small station with no local taxi service in the past, which required a fleet of taxis to travel from Reading to collect passengers. This was done really well.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: NickB on May 15, 2024, 21:51:05
There was an article/editorial in The Times a couple of months ago (might have been Caitlin Moran) about ‘why no one travels by rail’ and revolves around a tale of a prematurely curtailed rail journey to the west of England. In the tale, rail staff absolve themselves of their responsibility to ensure onward travel by issuing vouchers for taxi travel in the full knowledge that no taxis were operating in the area. The station being closed up for the night with many passengers standing at a taxi rank that would never bear fruit.
IIRC they got a taxi, hotel, taxi back and claimed for the lot. Fair play.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 24, 2024, 11:04:30
I thought the forum would like an update on this.

After 2 weeks, GWR are now denying that the service ran from Cheltenham to Gloucester (2B98). This is not consistent with the experience of the passengers that were on it.

Interestingly sites that use DARWIN are showing this as cancelled throughout, but it did run and I have opentraintimes images of timing points for that service from Cheltenham to Gloucester.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: NickB on May 24, 2024, 12:03:51
I’ve had a similar experience of applying for a refund on a service that according to GWR was a ghost-train.

This seems to be a relatively new phenomena - I didn’t have such issues pre-pandemic so do GWR not source their data from a different source?


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on May 24, 2024, 12:26:31
I'm going to correct what I said in my last post.

Darwin sites are showing the service as cancelled, but only from Gloucester (which is correct).

There's probably a training issue in GWR Customer Services where trains are cancelled for part of their journey.


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: nickswift99 on June 13, 2024, 08:26:08
Final update.

After a "Letter Before Action", GWR have finally agreed to compensate the taxi expense. Contrary to their Complaints Handling policy, it's still taking effort to get Delay Repay for this journey.

In summary, GWR do not appear to have an effective process for dealing with stranded passengers when they cancel services, nor do they seem to have a mechanism that is customer friendly to recover costs when they breach their contract.

@mods can you move this thread to the "Your rights and redress" section of the forum? Thanks


Title: Re: Passenger rights - last train cancelled
Post by: JayMac on June 13, 2024, 18:09:46
@mods can you move this thread to the "Your rights and redress" section of the forum? Thanks

Done.



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