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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: Red Squirrel on January 31, 2024, 11:46:53



Title: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 31, 2024, 11:46:53
Mike Calvert, who lives near Severn Beach Station, has been complaining for some time about the noise and fumes from trains idling at the terminus. He's been promised that this will be kept to a minimum, but it seems like intentions and reality differ. Here's his latest email on the topic:

"The trains remain idling (including revving of engines) at the Severn Beach station, following countless complaints.

It is alarming that all trains on Monday 29th idled at the station, with no drivers opting to turn off the trains, as stipulated in GWR policy.

Actual idling times for Monday 29th.

05:53 – 6 minutes
06:31 – 9 minutes
07:01 – 11 minutes
07:33 – 9 minutes
08:01 – 11 minutes
09:01 – 36 minutes
10:01 – 32 minutes
11:01 – 32 minutes
12:01 – 28 minutes
13:01 – 29 minutes
14:01 – 31 minutes
15:01 – 34 minutes
16:01 – 32 minutes
17:01 – 36 minutes
18:01 – 28 minutes
19:01 – 27 minutes
20:01 – 29 minutes
20:31 – 9 minutes
21:31 – 11 minutes
22:10 – 14 minutes
22:40 – 10 minutes
23:08 – 9 minutes

As above, this is over 8 hours of idling trains in a single day. How many cars does that put back on the road, like-for-like?

I resent, as a taxpayer, that this subsidised service results in a train operator polluting the village of Severn Beach with little to no regulation.

Mike"

Is this a problem elsewhere?


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 31, 2024, 12:25:21
‘Revving’ of engines would only usually occur when the compressor speed up in enabled to quickly build up air…when it’s been lost due to the engines being shut down!


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: grahame on January 31, 2024, 12:45:59
Is this a problem elsewhere?

It's unusual to that degree, I suspect. The turn around at Severn Beach is unusually long - looking at St Ives, Falmouth Dock, Newquay, Looe, Gunnislake, Exmouth, Okehampton, Barnstaple, Henley, Marlow, Windsor, Greenford the are all just a few minutes to keep that valuable train set running. Swindon used to have a long layover on the Cheltenham Spa services when they were alternate Sprinter and HST services, but they typically were shut down there.   Not a terminus as such, but there is an issue at times with trains terminating at Westbury.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: REVUpminster on January 31, 2024, 16:33:33
Paignton used to have this problem as you were slowly being gassed on the platform but nowadays they usually turn the engine off. Perhaps they are more confident the engine will restart.
I've seem the driver go to the toilets to get water to fill a water cap that was platform side of a 143.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: plymothian on February 01, 2024, 08:29:29
Noting that shutting down the engine means the heating turns off, which is not ideal at this time of year.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: infoman on February 01, 2024, 11:07:11
I think what might happen is GWR will reduce the amount of services going to the beach with a bus replacement  service.

If that happens,blame the complainer.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: TonyK on February 01, 2024, 13:38:02

It's unusual to that degree, I suspect. The turn around at Severn Beach is unusually long - looking at St Ives, Falmouth Dock, Newquay, Looe, Gunnislake, Exmouth, Okehampton, Barnstaple, Henley, Marlow, Windsor, Greenford the are all just a few minutes to keep that valuable train set running. Swindon used to have a long layover on the Cheltenham Spa services when they were alternate Sprinter and HST services, but they typically were shut down there.   Not a terminus as such, but there is an issue at times with trains terminating at Westbury.

The long layover seems to be a by-product of a regular service on a line with a long stretch of single track at the end, meshing with other trains terminating at an earlier station. An example is the train from Weston arriving at SVB at 1223. From Avonmouth, it has a 10-minute stretch to Severn Beach, giving something like a 25 minute minimum time before getting back to where it can cross with other trains. Meanwhile, Avonmouth enjoys another service arriving 1239, departing 1246. The 1223 arrival at SVB waits until 1301 before setting off again, passing the next inbound train from WSM at Avonmouth.

The obvious easy solution would be to terminate that service at Avonmouth. The next best would be to get the driver to shut down the engine, but as pointed out above, this involves a cold train and a nervous start-up. Option 3 is redouble the track so a 20-minute clockface service can operate and option 4 would be electrification, neither of which will happen quickly.

So - diesel fumes and noise, or a cut in a hard-won frequency of a MetroWest route.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 01, 2024, 14:18:28
So, signalling chums: would it be possible to tweak the signals or rules so that trains could pull about 500m out of the station after dropping off passengers, and then reverse back in for the next service?


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: infoman on February 01, 2024, 18:25:19
Its a good thought,but I can see passengers making a long walk up to the train at the "far end"

and when the passenger gets to the train it moves off to the stop blocks end.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: FarWestJohn on February 01, 2024, 18:35:58
At Penryn when the locals complained about the noise from trains waiting to pass on the single line they built a huge great wooden fence/wall to protect the houses.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Witham Bobby on February 09, 2024, 12:03:42
So, signalling chums: would it be possible to tweak the signals or rules so that trains could pull about 500m out of the station after dropping off passengers, and then reverse back in for the next service?

That would very much depend on local circumstances.  At the end of a dead-end single-line branch, like Looe or Barnstaple, then yes, probably.  Where there are fixed signals and complications of "wrong" direction moves, far less easy


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: grahame on February 09, 2024, 15:28:54
So, signalling chums: would it be possible to tweak the signals or rules so that trains could pull about 500m out of the station after dropping off passengers, and then reverse back in for the next service?

That would very much depend on local circumstances.  At the end of a dead-end single-line branch, like Looe or Barnstaple, then yes, probably.  Where there are fixed signals and complications of "wrong" direction moves, far less easy

Not sure how Severn Beach fits in to that with "The bins" coming up the single track and shunting into the power plant; they can just about be seen from the platform at Severn Beach.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Witham Bobby on February 09, 2024, 15:52:17

Not sure how Severn Beach fits in to that with "The bins" coming up the single track and shunting into the power plant; they can just about be seen from the platform at Severn Beach.

It's been a long time since I was there, but I don't think Severn Beach is a dead-end is it?  I need to refresh my knowledge.  I'll look at some track plans


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: johnneyw on February 09, 2024, 16:03:14

It's been a long time since I was there, but I don't think Severn Beach is a dead-end is it?  I need to refresh my knowledge.  I'll look at some track plans

The curve/chord linking Severn Beach Station to the main line at Pilning was ripped up and built over, in part at least, a fair few years ago.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: a-driver on February 09, 2024, 16:25:54
‘Revving’ of engines would only usually occur when the compressor speed up in enabled to quickly build up air…when it’s been lost due to the engines being shut down!

And restarting the engines and hitting the compressor speed up probably doesn’t do the engines much good either.
During the hours of darkness shutting the engines down could result in the saloon lighting going out.

Whatever you do though, don’t tell Mike we keep an engine on a HST running all night! 


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: broadgage on February 09, 2024, 18:44:34
Electrification would avoid these concerns  :)


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2024, 18:51:20
Electrification would avoid these concerns  :)

Very true.

Though it will just enrage the ‘masts are a blot on the landscape’ brigade instead!  ::)


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Trowres on February 09, 2024, 21:50:09
If there's any worry that the DMU engines would not start after a 30 minute break, or that the lights would go out, or that the air would leak away... then it makes me wonder whether it's the design or the maintenance of the trains that  leaves a bit to be desired.



Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2024, 22:46:10
The air will leak away after that amount of time, not completely, but enough to mean the brakes will apply, which is just a factor of the design, not the maintenance - though the rate will vary from unit to unit as you may have little leaks here and there.  Same with the batteries leading to loss of lighting.

It’ll only take a few minutes to build air again, and by speeding up the compressor (‘revving’ the engine) you speed that process up by about five fold.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: broadgage on February 10, 2024, 08:47:08
How about installing a short length of 750 volt DC conductor rail, to supply electricity for lighting, air compressors, heating and other needs.
Would also be useful for charging any battery trains that might be introduced in future.
It should be possible to appease the health and safety industry by only energising this  conductor rail when a train is over it. Also install it centrally between the running rails to render it hard to reach/touch.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: grahame on February 10, 2024, 09:38:50
The "blindingly obvious" solutions is electrical so that the power to keep the train warm during layovers is not generated by a Diesel engine running while it sits there.     A number of choices

1. An electric train, with overhead power all the way from Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach

2. A train that arrives, ticks over and leaves Severn Beach on batteries

3. A train that connects in to a land supply of electricity at Severn Beach

Option 1 - there are lots of tried and tested trains that could be used.   But infrastructure is needed.  Options 2 and 3 are more leading edge stuff as regards the rolling stock.   Option 3 also needs infrastructure work at "The Beach".

There are also other choices

4. Put up some sort of sound baffling

5. Tell the complainant that he's being unreasonable

6. Change the timetable to reduce layovers (e.g. run  through to / from SVB with every train not just alternate ones)


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: froome on February 10, 2024, 10:03:16
While electrifying the whole route would be my preferred option, number 3 is an interesting concept here. I don't think there is any station building here now, but there is obviously an electricity supply, and you could add a few solar panels onto the platform somewhere as a back-up.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 10, 2024, 12:09:27
The "blindingly obvious" solutions is electrical so that the power to keep the train warm during layovers is not generated by a Diesel engine running while it sits there.     A number of choices

1. An electric train, with overhead power all the way from Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach

2. A train that arrives, ticks over and leaves Severn Beach on batteries

3. A train that connects in to a land supply of electricity at Severn Beach

Option 1 - there are lots of tried and tested trains that could be used.   But infrastructure is needed.  Options 2 and 3 are more leading edge stuff as regards the rolling stock.   Option 3 also needs infrastructure work at "The Beach".

There are also other choices

4. Put up some sort of sound baffling

5. Tell the complainant that he's being unreasonable

6. Change the timetable to reduce layovers (e.g. run  through to / from SVB with every train not just alternate ones)

To address points 4 and 5:

4. Sound baffles won’t do much to reduce the filthy stink of ageing diesel engines;
5. He’s not being unreasonable.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: ellendune on February 10, 2024, 12:47:57

It's been a long time since I was there, but I don't think Severn Beach is a dead-end is it?  I need to refresh my knowledge.  I'll look at some track plans

The curve/chord linking Severn Beach Station to the main line at Pilning was ripped up and built over, in part at least, a fair few years ago.

Yes the line north of Severn Beach was closed in the 1960's and a significant number of houses and the M49 have been built over the first 800 metres of the trackbed. 


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: TonyK on February 10, 2024, 13:20:35
If there's any worry that the DMU engines would not start after a 30 minute break, or that the lights would go out, or that the air would leak away... then it makes me wonder whether it's the design or the maintenance of the trains that  leaves a bit to be desired.



As the late disgraced former DJ and Fixit guy Jimmy Savile once said in a series of TV adverts: "It's the age of the train".


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: grahame on February 10, 2024, 13:21:36
To address points 4 and 5:
5. He’s not being unreasonable.

The fact that he's not being unreasonable does not stop certain parties telling him that he is.  But then I don't suppose he's dealing with APCOA or the Post Office in this ...

On point 6, if all trains were extended to Severn Beach, with a quick (Looe-sized) turn around at The Beach and a few minutes added for pathing / recovery at Avonmouth, am I right in suggesting that no extra train would be required?


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: a-driver on February 10, 2024, 18:14:24
While electrifying the whole route would be my preferred option, number 3 is an interesting concept here. I don't think there is any station building here now, but there is obviously an electricity supply, and you could add a few solar panels onto the platform somewhere as a back-up.

You’d be surprised. We get complaints with electric trains that the compressors are making too much noise. You can never win, it’s never ending. Sadly, the likes of Mike will only be happy when the trains stop running.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: grahame on February 12, 2024, 07:31:46
Quiet morning at The Beach

Quote
Alterations to services between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Beach via Clifton Down

Due to flooding between Sea Mills and Shirehampton the line is closed. Disruption is expected until 12:00 12/02.

Train services between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Beach via Clifton Down and Avonmouth will be terminated at and started back from Clifton Down.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Mark A on February 12, 2024, 08:47:44
Is this tide-related, anyone? Not that there's anything untoward about the top of today's (gulp, but normal for the Severn Estuary) 14 metre tide...

Mark

https://ntslf.org/data/realtime?port=Portbury (https://ntslf.org/data/realtime?port=Portbury)


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 12, 2024, 09:25:39
That seems likely: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=27227.0

That state of Sea Mills Viaduct seems pretty suboptimal….


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: froome on February 12, 2024, 11:54:36
Presumably high tide plus an awful lot of water coming down the Avon, which has been flooding all its usual haunts over the last few days, and had a bit more added to it last night.


Title: Re: Trains idling at termini
Post by: CyclingSid on February 13, 2024, 06:57:14
Not knowing the geography in detail, the following might be relevant:

Quote
Flood warning for Somerset coast at Portishead and Portbury Dock, seafront properties and Portbury Dock areas

Updated 2:49pm on 12 February 2024

This flood warning has been issued for the high tide on Tuesday morning. The forecast high water is at 9:45 AM on 13/02/2024 with a level of 7.94 mAODN with south easterly force 4 winds. Please note all tide times are in local time and refer to the high-water time at Avonmouth.

Areas most at risk include the coastline between Portishead Point and Avonmouth including Portishead Ashlands Nature Reserve and the Royal Portbury Dock. The flooding of property may occur one or two hours before and after the high tide time. Start acting on your flood plan if you have one and consider activating any property flood protection products you have.

This flood warning is not expected to be re-issued during this spring high-tide period. Drier weather is forecast for Monday but some showers again on Tuesday.

Our incident response staff are closing flood gates and checking defences. Please be careful along beaches, promenades, coastal footpaths and roads as large waves and sea spray could be dangerous.

This message will be updated by 2:00 PM on 13/02/2024, or as the situation changes.

Flood warning area: Coastline between Portishead Point and Avonmouth including Portishead Ashlands Nature Reserve and the Royal Portbury Dock.

From https://check-for-flooding.service.gov.uk/river-and-sea-levels (https://check-for-flooding.service.gov.uk/river-and-sea-levels)



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