Great Western Coffee Shop

From The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/19/eu-fingerprint-checks-uk-travellers-british-passengers-entry-exit-system-facial-scans)

Brexit bonus.

A visa (EITAS) scheme was something David Cameron pushed the EU to adopt when he was PM as a way of the EU to control its boarders. 

Hopefully the UK will adopt the same practice - good way to keep some of the undesirables out.

I cannot see it happening anytime soon, we don't even stamp EU visitors passports on entry into the UK and there are no checks on the way out of the UK to check if someone has overstayed.

Taking back control of our borders .................... what a joke

Indeed. I have decided that at the next GE my support will only potentially be lent to a party that has declared a manifesto commitment to UK border exit checks.

How many of these 'undesirables' as you call them attempt to gain entry to the UK through the use of legitimate border entry points?

The EES system is replacing the stamping of a passport, while additionally gathering the biometric data of legimate travellers. It is not going to deter a single person attempting to reach the UK by other, less legitimate, means.

I don't know, and neither do you.

You may consider that it isn't a deterrent, however it would appear that perhaps better informed people than yourself consider it to be worth a trial on those travelling the other way, so why not duplicate it?

This type of scanning and fingerprint capture is a powerful tool - basically the more difficult you make it, the less likely it is to happen and it's certainly a great deal better than a cursory glance at a Passport.

Happy to hear your own thoughts on alternatives?

Alternatives aren't needed for a problem that doesn't exist.

Exactly

The system is not about controlling the UK Border, its to control the Border into the EU to ensure that us "undesirable" UK citizens do not overstay 90 days in any 180 in the EU

Put these 'fingerprint and facial scans' on to a universal national identity card that is required to access accommodation, health, wealth, employment and welfare (like most of Europe) and the problem with uncontrolled immigration would reduce significantly overnight.

Those that support draconian (and ultimately, useless border controls) are the staunchest opponants of identity cards.

Those identity cards in Europe don't stop migration to the countries that have them. Asylum seekers continue to cross the Mediterranean.

Indeed, They move on ...

Towards us.

The moderator team notes this thread and thanks members for staying within our guidelines which welcome varied views ... but ask you not to cross over the line into personal attack.    Like others here, I have strong views but I'm keeping my moderator hat on and not jumping in.

Please rest assured Graham and team, it will not be I.

Earlier this month I holidayed in Fuerteventura, and I endured a lengthy queue at incoming border control.  While waiting I admired the large number of brand new e-gates that looked ready for reading e-passports such as we Brits have nowadays.  Alas they were not in use and everyone was manually checked at the small number of booths, at which our passports were stamped.  I thought to myself: if only the gates could be used then there wouldn't be this queue.  Therefore I would welcome the increased efficiency that could come once the Schengen border has got my face and fingerprint on record.

As an aside, about 1 in 100 people in this country migrated here, legally, in 2022. Is a lot of the talk around UK border controls akin to a conjuror waving a hanky above their head to distract your attention while they slip the ball under the cup?

Perhaps of some relevance to this debate, I have had my first two experiences of cross-border rail travel since the pandemic this autumn.

The first was a trip to southern Sweden in September. I flew into Copenhagen, and had my second Oresund Bridge rail trip (the first being as long ago as 2007 – how time flies!), starting at the very convenient airport station. On the train there was a multi-lingual announcement that at Hyllie, the first station on the Swedish side, there would be passport checks for those leaving the train. I understand that checks were re-introduced on the border during he 2016 “migrant crisis”. We were though travelling onto Malmo Central, but heard no further announcements.
On arrival at Malmo there was no further announcement. There was a (closed) customs post at the far end of the platform, but we were able to walk of the platform and out of the station with no checks, nor sign of any or any signage indicating any need to have passports checked. There were no controls at all on the way back. What was the point of the Hyllie checks? To justify what from the train looked like security fencing at the station?

The second was a trip to Lille on Eurostar that my wife and I took early in November. Here I had a personal first in just over 50 years’ travel to France. Not only was my passport scanned at St Pancras by the French immigration authorities, but it was checked by two officials afterwards as well, the second of whom put the first ever French passport stamp I have ever had. Again, what was the point as my passport had already been scanned?

BTW – my view is that controlling movement is a Canute-like endeavour. Movement of people around the world is a natural phenomenon, and has been going on since time immemorial. The biggest problem of movement of undesirables is the internal one of the county line drug dealers moving out from major urban centres to set up networks to peddle their wares on our streets, not those from overseas wanting to better themselves either by coming here to work or study. My vote would be for someone who wanted us to join the Schengen area, but I am realistic enough to know that there’s no chance of that from anywhere on the political spectrum.

Sweeping statement. They don't. Statistics show the UK is well down the list of European nations, percentage wise, where asylum seekers and refugees end up.

In 2022 the UK processed 81,000 asylum applications. Spain 118,000. France 156,000. Germany 246,000. As a percentage of population, in 2022 Ireland processed more than twice as many asylum application than the UK.

Of course, gathering statistics on those who 'disappear' into a country after arriving through illegitimate means is very difficult. But the UK's detection, detention and deportation rates don't show any significant differences to those of other European nations.

I think some of the statistics might be a bit off the mark according to this article (https://www.statista.com/statistics/293350/asylum-grants-in-europe/), with Germany well ahead at 197,540, France at 129,735 and Spain at 83,385. The UK numbers (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/#:~:text=The%20annual%20number%20of%20asylum,highest%20annual%20number%20since%202002.) come next at 81,130 above all of the rest of EU countries. On that first link one can expand the graph to see them all.

So I don't think we are not pulling our weight here. Of interest, look at the asylum rejection rates. The House of Commons report states that the UK rejection rate was 24% in 2022. Compare that to France for example in my first link or even Spain and compare the numbers of accepted asylum seekers. I am not anti-asylum nor anti-immigration.


This is the nub of my comment on 'uncontrolled immigration' that it is the open and porous state of British society and its economy that people can simply disappear. I would love to study the statistics quoted above but I suspect that in the UK without its national identity card (needed for all walks of life in the EU and elsewhere), the 'detection' element, compared to EU areas, is significantly lower.

Also in this context worth taking into account the size of those countries compared to the UK in the asylum seeker "Top Trumps" stakes - all in square miles.

France 210,020
Spain 195,365
Germany 137,882
UK 95,960

- Similarly I'm not anti-immigration, I live and work in the one of the most diverse areas of the country and as far as I'm concerned anyone who has something to offer and is willing to adapt to and abide by our culture, laws and traditions in exchange for the privilege of UK residency is welcome here.

To show you the date of entry/exit & so you can work out your 90 day limit.