Great Western Coffee Shop

A few of you may know GWR been looking for ways to replace the entire dmu fleet as well.as possibly emus in the Thames valley.


GWRS MD has been quite vocal about particularly about getting Bristol TM wired to GWR could use a emu fitted with batteries on the Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr service.

Other UK TOCs especially northern and chiltern are struggling to get replacement parts for the BR dmus.

The DFT have now put a tenders out for replacement units including for GWR.

Looks like they are looking at units with 24m carriages  for  GWR hopefully 5 carriage units for the Portsmouth hbr service.

I doubt very much it would be Hitachi that would get the contract. My money is probably on Alstom or STadler

Presumably "Churchward" after the noted Great Western CME of the opening years of the last century?

He, as one of the great innovative railway engineers would be turning in his grave at the current state of the railway vehicle construction industry in the UK.

Finally some detailed proposals, even if over 5 years away.  Here’s hoping for some or all to be provided by Stadler, and for cascades from other operators to help out in the meantime.


It’s a lot better than it was ten years ago when there was just Derby.

Class 75x/23x FLIRTs, Now!

Although why specify 24m per carriage? Surely the main focuses should be the traction package and seating capacity. Stadler FLIRTs of varying lengths and traction types would be, in my opinion, the perfect fleet to order. FLIRTs are already a very flexible, modular design. A 'next gen' update following on from the sucessful Greater Anglia and Transport for Wales fleets would be perfect for the diverse needs of the greater western network. As much commonality as possible would be best for future proofing should there be expansion of electrification. Losing diesel 'power packs' is much better than having to order another new fleet down the *ahem* line.




Edit note: Thread title updated to 'Project Churchward - Future regional fleet for the west' to better describe the topic.

News to me, thanks for the tip.

Yes, the unrefurbished Turbos are looking very tired these days and the Welsh FLIRTS look very nice.

Any idea on whether that might include closing St Philip's Marsh and building a new depot somewhere else? Seems very quiet these days.

My presumption was/is that an unvoiced objective of the Temple Meads roof project is to have a solid structure to which electrification hardware can be fixed and that once they were reasonably far along, they'd pass the 3D models to electrification designers and propose wiring to Parkway as 'the thin end of the wedge'.

 

Some big decisions needed on electrification here. Surely, we can't have yet another stop-gap fleet of anything still needing diesel?

I've heard talk of wires to Bristol TM via both Filton and Bath along with wires to Swansea.
A tri-mode 5 carriage unit be ideal for Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr and even Cardiff to penzance.  Heard other electric islands were being looked at

I heard they were trying to get wires from Swindon to Severn tunnel junction and Westerleigh jct too.

"Project Chuchward" has been vaguely around for a while; good to see some flesh being put on the bones.  I seem to recall plans being to order a new fleet of 17x units  ( a dozen at 4 cars each) to run Portsmouth / Cardiff, but then that got canned with GWR electrification costing rather a lot and releasing the turbos.

I have seen some very sensible Network Rail long term aspirations for further electrification and use of battery / alternative fuels on remaining lines to the exclusion of diesel traction in due course.   What is lacking in my mind is the work being done on the ground to have this actually happen - perhaps pump priming is going on behind the scenes or unnoticed, but I'm darned if I have seen it!

It would make sense for the "next stage" to complete electrification from Chippenham via Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway and Patchway (overhead) , and from Basingstoke, Southampton and Eastleigh to Salisbury (perhaps 3rd rail) to allow Cardiff / Portsmouth service to make use of batteries from Bathampton to Salisbury (or Wilton?).  Heavy freight would/will provide an impetus to have electrification into the Westbury area too ...

I support electrification, but remain of the view that all new electric trains should have a battery or a diesel engine to run basic on board services or proceed at much reduced performance when the wires come down.
Having incurred the cost and weight penalty, then this battery or engine could be used to a very limited extent in passenger service.
Electrification should be cheaper and simpler with the odd short gap in problematic locations such as inadequate clearances under bridges.
In most cases trains could coast through such gaps, but a secondary power source seems prudent. Also valuable for diversions, to Waterloo for example, or excursions to heritage railways.

How's about this for a completely bonkers idea? Electrification of the (entirely self-contained) Devon Metro route between Exmouth & Paignton on which the principal 150/2 rolling stock is approaching it's fortieth birthday.

....and to Oxford (better still Banbury as well so that all Thames Valley main line and "Oxford Canal Line" services can be run by those Electrostars that always seem to be hanging around the Reading Depot).

The next major National timetable change is 2029 to 2031, the railways next 5 year Control Period CP8 (CP7 is 2024-2029).  The DfT via the TOCs, the TOCs have been in discussion with Network Rail.  The TOCs have had to produce a report to the DfT what is required rolling stock renewals, example are the Networkers (465/6 165/6 etc)

Change of rolling stock leads to a change in infrastructure -
Train care facilities,
Stations
Traction power (substations, Grid supplies OLE / third rail), 
Signalling (roll out of ETCS ie in cab signalling) 
Track layouts

Some of this will rollover into CP9

According to today's Sunday Times, "GWR, the West Country operator, this weekend announced its plan for 100 battery trains to serve Bristol, Devon, and Cornwall, as well as routes including Cardiff to Portsmouth and Exeter to Penzance." (I can't see anything public from GWR, but then putting that out over a weekend would be odd anyway.)

The article as a whole is a rehash of previous arguments about avoiding OLE and the need to decarbonise within the lifetime of any new stock, but that bit does claim to be factual. It quotes the engineering director (Simon Green) as saying he expects they will agree with the DfT to issue a tender by the end of the year.

There is also a bit about Siemens being a "battery train supplier", based on the entry into service of their Desiro Verve. They seem confident the product is now going to get a lot of interest from all the TOCS, which is fair enough. However, you might wonder whether "it can recharge from the domestic grid rather than relying on high-voltage lines, and be fully charged in 20 minutes" means anything.

Much as I'd rather see proper OLE, based on a few things I've read recently, it actually seems quite reasonable.

Can't see the full article but suggests things have gone well with the Greenford trial, which was designed to prove that everything could be reliable and the fast charging systems work well - see https://railway-news.com/uk-gwr-commences-fast-charging-battery-powered-train-trial/ (https://railway-news.com/uk-gwr-commences-fast-charging-battery-powered-train-trial/).

IIRC, the fast chargers use a standard 3-phase mains supply (400V AC) which is relatively quick and easy to install, with far fewer H&S headaches than OLE. The time to recharge was advertised as 3 1/2 minutes, which if reliable, should mean that the technology is certainly suitable for most of the GWR branches from Windsor to St Ives.

As for the longer distance services, there's an interesting trial between Hitachi and Transpennine at the moment, replacing a single diesel power pack in an 802 with a similar weight battery power pack (Nissan Leaf batteries in case you were interested) which is recharged from the overheads and braking. They reckon the distance off the wires is 80 to 100km, which isn't enough for Exeter to Penzance, but would enable fiddly stretches like Dawlish to be left unwired, and with more efficient batteries and replacing fuel tanks, perhaps the 120ish km between Bristol and Weymouth could be reasonable. More at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8J0ONy3Go (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8J0ONy3Go) in case anyone is interested.

I am a bit doubtful about claims made for ultra-fast charging from a standard 400 volt, 3 phase supply.
The greatest load that can be connected to an existing substation is often about 315 amps or 400 amps, presuming that the substation has enough spare capacity. If insufficient capacity is available then a new substation will be required.

More than 315 or 400 amps will require a new substation, that could if desired be at the higher voltage of 690 volts (three phase, 4 wire systems at 400 volts phase to neutral and 690 volts between phases are catching on in industry, so the transformer will be readily available.)

400 amps at three phase 400 volts is about 276 kilowatts, perhaps a bit more in practice as the actual voltage supplied tends to be at least 415 volts.
276 kw will take at least a few hours to charge a reasonable size battery train. In the case of a 2,000kwh battery then 276 kw input will take about 9 hours, fine for overnight charging but limited for charging in service.

Use of multiple batteries each intended for an electric car may have the merits of competitive price due to the mass production of these batteries.

I believe the "fast charging" system at West Ealing is basically "pump storage" an 11kV / 400V substation charges a set of line side batteries which provide the high current to charge to train; the line side batteries being charged at a slower rate between train charging.

There was (may still even be) a proposal to use battery trains on the Marsh Link (Ashford - Hastings) the train batteries being charged when the contact the 750V third rail at each end.  Sounds like a good idea however the fast charging current would mean a new 3 1/2 MW substation to be built at each end.

Battery trains are expensive in terms of line side infrastructure to fast charge them   

I've found what was behind the article: Siemens put out a kind of flyer about their battery trains (https://news.siemens.co.uk/news/siemens-british-battery-trains-set-to-save-gbp-3-5bn-and-consign-diesel-trains-to-history) today. Presumably The Times got that in advance.

They have been promoting the Verve as a 200 km/h Desiro for nearly ten years, and don't appear to have sold any. They offer all cars motored except those with pantograph and battery (or hydrogen fuel cell). The article cited them (with batteries) as just gone into service in Germany, but those are branded Mireo B plus and are for 160 km/h. All a bit puzzling, especially for the GWR and other DMU replacements where 200 km/h is not needed.

I'm still none the wiser about what they mean by "domestic grid". It sounds like they are saying you can avoid the delay and expense of getting a "traditional" national grid supply for OLE, but then they aren't the only ones who could do that for a small section. Here's another quote on this:

I'm guessing it's a small SFC fed at 11 or 33 kV. I have seen nothing to suggest they offer buffer battery storage at trackside.

If Filton Bank is wired perhaps see if batteries could be fitted to class 350/2's to use on the Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour services.

Meanwhile looks like GWR will be having 20 kass 175 units

Class 175 were introduced in 1997; coupling system: Scharfenberg Type 330. So yet another set of older trains that can't couple to others cascaded after they're superceded by something new on the "important" lines they were built for.

Having said that, yes please ... 20 "new" units would be great, provided that they add substantially to the reliable available carriage count on GWR.

If Class 175s arrive then it will be a reasonably short-term thing of 5 or so years, until this new generation of stock is built and enters service.

The stock would be most useful in that respect, even if not the perfect fit for a few reasons.

Class 175s. ::)

Did GWR learn nothing from their terrible experience with the Class 180s from the same Alstom Coradia family? They should steer well clear.

That was one of my reasons against!

GWR will have sod all say in the matter though sadly.

Beggars can’t be choosers.

Looks like next few weeks should see a 175 making its way to laira  depot

With a plan for more to follow?

Very quick work by the new government!  ;)

It's been posted on other railway forums and I've asked one member of gwr staff I know  that I know and they've also said its happening but there's been a memo from aslef to their members at GWR that all 27 class 175s will be heading west soon.

Hopefully if the plan remains as I wad told the units would be based mainly at laira  but will also be put on Exeter to Barnstaple and Okehampton services to free up class 150/158's

I wonder if they'll keep the names. Seeing "Valhalla - Blackpool Pleasure Beach" or "Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru" rumbling through Crediton would be a novelty, although I'm not sure the names survived the last repainting.

I believe there's a significant difference between 175s and 180s. The engine raft design on both is said to be problematic and prone to overheating, but the smaller engine in the 175s means everything is less tightly packed together and ventilation is better.

Certainly ATW seemed to operate 175s without much issue for many years, until TfW transferred the maintenance contract from Alstom at Chester to CAF who had less familiarity with the units... at which point the fires started. (Shades of the 180s which were pretty good under Old Oak Common maintenance and less so when transferred elsewhere.)

But this is definitely not my specialist subject and others will know more.

I would sum them up as:

Reliability:  Better than the 180s, yes, but still not great - and they take a lot of looking after to get decent reliability.

Internal layout:  Excellent.  One of the best.

Capacity:  Poor.  A by-product of the great internal layout.

Suitability for GWR:  Not too bad as a stop-gap.  As long as they are mostly kept as 5-car formations and definitely not 2-car ones!  Cardiff<>Portsmouth and Penzance routes would seem to be the best fit.

Build some proper intercity trains for the longer distance routes, and cascade the IETs to regional or secondary routes.

Lease of Class 175s to GWR dated 29 August 2024


https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/027591-2024
This is a new web service in beta at present.

We still don't know when the date of award was or will be:

I can't help wondering if Project Churchward is being morphed - at least at this interim stage - to Project Holman Fred Stephens.

The Cardiff - Portsmouth route currently in the hands of turbos which are fine for local journeys but not for journeys in excess of an hour. To be replaced by other vintage units - though in my view having additional stock AND stuff designed for regional services is an improvement.  Col Stephens was famous for stretching out the life of locomotives he bought almost-life-expired, and I can't help looking at current reliability issues in the area - "cancelled because of a fault on this train" stuff, and wonder how that will change with more 158s around.

Trying to do an FAQ about trains mentioned - classes we may have or be about to have:
Class 255   Origin year 1976
Class 150   Origin year 1984
Class 158   Origin year 1989
Class 165   Origin year 1990
Class 166   Origin year 1992
Class 175   Origin year 1992
Class 230   Origin year 2015 (on 1976 base)

And classes that may have been mentioned and could be useful in our regional fleet
Class 172   Origin year 2010
Class 756   Origin year 2018
Class 197   Origin year 2022
Class 231   Origin year 2023
Class 398   Origin year 2023

Class 153, 155 and 156 units may also be in store / available for lease, but long in the tooth?

Shame the last labour government cancelled that order for 4 carriage class 172s for the Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour service.

Hopefully we see movement on new rolling stock orders especially ro replace the BR Dmus.

I wonder if battery fitted Class 350/2's could be useful to GWR possibly with further electrification

Shush Grahame - someone might remember there are quite a few Pacers still knocking around, particularly on heritage lines. 

I was thinking more along the lines of a couple of 10 year old single decker buses from Wales. Like the ones we now have in Worcestershire. Coupled together back to back and fitted with rail wheels like Stephens did with his Ford model T railbuses.