Great Western Coffee Shop

Very readable (and relatable) account from a chap whose left London before 5 but was terminated at Preston - and the passengers found out about this before the train crew. Subsequently, taxis for many people to Edinburgh arriving just after the small hours.

I'd almost thought it was a tale, but the thread thread has photos, one of which includes the moon so, yes, it was last night.

Understandably the guy hasn't resurfaced this morning to round off this story.

It's difficult not to contrast the care that railways have in place for safety of passengers and hopefully staff with the transition to putting a train load of passengers into taxis whose drivers are totally unprepared for a journey of several hundred miles late at night (but are willing, possibly incorrectly in some cases, to take the gig). But that's the way that road transport often works: a lot of people both professional and personal, and also organisations, winging it to a greater or lesser extent, and a fair amount of actual criminality mixed in too.

Mark

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1706433356186161479.html

That's quite an epic.  Like the script from some 1970s disaster movie.  Well written, too

Other travellers off the trains at Preston included a group of 5 adults with 50 children in their care, returning to Cumbernauld. A bit of a problem given that onward travel offered was taxis and one 16 seater minibus. (In the event the group of their own initiative were lucky enough to contract a coach to take the group and were back around 2.30am).

Mark

https://twitter.com/modsghs/status/1706436653747749166

The Beeb have found it now...........................
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66925314

sky news visited Preston on tuesday,I presume.
Now being shown in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

Track defect shut the line for 3-4 hours. Would they have rather Avanti gambled and ran their trains over and derailed next time with the consequences that come with that?

The line block was at Lockerbie, north of Carlisle.
 
It might be that the train was terminated at Preston in order to form a south bound service.

Otherwise it might have been possible to terminate at Carlisle, or even divert via the GSWR to Glasgow if route knowledge and crewing allowed.

An alternative used by LNER is to use the Carlisle to Newcastle route and then to Edingburgh and Glasgow. However I do not think the Avanti do diversionary routes like this!

I did wonder ... perhaps Avanti had good reason for terminating at Preston, but that hasn't come through in any of the material I have seen.  GSWR route would also need to be a bi-mode or diesel - not sure whether the train terminated at Preston was a Pendelino or not.

All sorts of factors at play though, and Network Rail haven't stated the nature of the track defect. Perhaps other options were available and it may even have been that there were not the staff available with sufficient experience to put those in place. We can't say without both having that experience and knowing what they were dealing with.

Mark

At least one of the three trains cancelled at Preston ought to have gone through to Carlisle in order that the road journey further was as minimal as possible rather tyhan where the TOC felt was operationally sensible.

I thought that - but then I wondered what the supply of taxis and coaches within 30 miles of Carlisle is like compared to the supply around Preston.

With an extra two hours in which to source them? They could almost have got taxis to do the reverse round-trip down from Edinburgh in that time....

In another Forum it states there was a staff changeover due at Preston so they didn't want them to be stranded...........as for the passengers however.......

There's been some criticism of the control decisions that  evening, and I've been trying to get a fuller picture of what they were. If you look at the record on RTT, the block (at a viaduct south of Lockerbie) started after the trains that ran through Lockerbie at 16:09 (both ways). The first passenger trains to run after that were at 2111 (south) and 2122 (north).

But there were some goods trains in between - south at 2019 (held at its Mossend origin), 2037 (held at Mossend en route), 2040 (held at its Shieldmuir origin); north at 2022 (having been held south of Gretna), 2047 (having been held north of Carlisle). I guess these ran first as they could be held in places between main stations, and restarted at shorter notice than passenger trains. The line block must have actually been lifted by 2000; some reports say it was before 1930.

One bus is shown leaving at 1715, as RRB and timetabled, from Carlisle to Motherwell via Lockerbie. I guess there was some work being done that day, despite it being a Monday.

The next train southbound after the closure was 1M16, which stopped at Lockerbie until a bit before 2000, then returned to Glasgow, though by the time it reached Carstairs the line had reopened. It shows on RTT as cancelled, and on Liverail as "Cancelled    At Glasgow Central High Level. Reason IR [Broken/cracked/twisted/buckled/flawed rail] AT ORIGIN", but with some timings en route and last timed as "16:45 Arr. Lockerbie 16 Late". The next (9M59) has a last timing of "16:18 Arr. Carlisle P3 4 Late". I imagine that went back to Glasgow too, though neither northward run is shown.

Northbound, the last train to get through (1S63) left Carlisle at 1553 (so it took 16 minutes to get to Lockerbie). Then there's a gap (apart from the train via Dumfries that left at 1609) until 1618, when a TPE service for Edinburgh was terminated short. That was followed by two AWC: 1S68 (GLC) at 1652 and 9S70 (EDB) at 1709.

After that, then next train isn't due until 1852: 1S72 (GLC) which was terminated at Preston at 1637, as were 9S77 (GLC) at 1751 and 61L, 1S74 (TPE, LIV-GLC) at 1658, 1S75 (TPE, to EDB) at 1708, 1S78 (GLC) at 1828 (50L), 9S80 (EDB) at 1838 (17L), 1S82 (GLC) at 1855 (17L), and 9S93 (EDB) at 2008 (17L) - the train in the report. There were two more trains terminated that night, 9S97 at Crewe, and 1S98 at Preston at 2221, 41 late. Both (as with other later cancellations) have recorded reason "IS [Track defects (other than rail defects i.e. fish plates, wet beds etc)]".

So two northbound AWC trains were stopped at Carlisle, six at Preston (plus one late at night), and one at Crewe; also three (smaller) TPE ones. One train was cancelled at Euston. That does not seem unreasonable, if the objective is to take trains as far as possible, subject to the capacity of the stations for trains and lost passengers.

Only three trains got through after the line reopened:  9S85 delayed before and at Preston - where is was cancelled on arrival, then uncancelled again - and which it left at 1948 (55L), 1S83 TPE started short from Carlisle at 2018, and 1S90 that was held at Preston and left at 2008 (25L). Those all arrived nearly an hour late, but well before midnight - and the last two trains didn't make it.

Given the size and number of mainline trains, which are electric, and that any diversion has smaller trains, and isn't, it's inevitable that there was a massive problem for Avanti's staff to deal with. With so many trainloads of passengers stuck en route, I don't think they did too badly. But the line reopened by 2000, so in principle most trains that set out should have been able to reach their destinations, even if hours late. Since SNCF, for example, do generally manage to do that, it's fair to ask why - what is the difference? Staffing and employment terms, no doubt, but that if so that's a problem rather than an answer.

Of course the lack of viable diversions and whatever makes staffing such an issue are also the results of earlier decisions, not acts of God.

Here's an attempt at a full list of the long-distance northbound trains (plus a couple southbound) due through Preston (PRE), and what happened to them.

		From	For	Actual	Arr (PRE)	Fate (times at PRE if not stated)
1S63	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Glasgow Central	1439	Last train north: left CAR 1553
1S66	TP	Manchester Airport	Edinburgh	Carlisle	1500	Arr: CAR  1618  4L
1S69	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Carlisle	1539	Arr: CAR  1652  5L
9S70	VT	London Euston	Edinburgh	Carlisle	1551	Arr: CAR  1706  6L
1S72	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Preston	1639	Arr:  1637
9S77	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Preston	1651	Arr:  1751¾  61L
1S74	TP	Liverpool Lime Street	Glasgow Central	Preston	1659	Arr:  1658
1S75	TP	Manchester Airport	Edinburgh	Preston	1700	Arr:  1708  9L
1S78	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Preston	1739	Arr:  1828½  50L
1M90	TP	Glasgow Central	Preston	Preston	1747	Last train south: left  Lockerbie 1609
9S80	VT	London Euston	Edinburgh	Preston	1751	Arr:  1838  47L
1S81	TP	Manchester Airport	Carlisle	Carlisle	1759	Arr: CAR 21L  1936  21L
1S82	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Preston	1839	Arr:  1855  7L
9S85	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Glasgow Central	1851	* dep PRE 1848, arr GLC 2226 74L
1S83	TP	Manchester Airport	Edinburgh	Edinburgh	1859	Started at Carlisle; arr EDB RT
1S90	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Glasgow Central	1939	Arr: GLC  2300  52L
9S93	VT	London Euston	Edinburgh	Preston	1952	Arr: EDB  2008¾  17L
1S95	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central		2039	Cancelled at origin
9S97	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Crewe	2051	Cancelled at Crewe arr 2010
1S88	TP	Manchester Airport	Edinburgh		2102	Cancelled at origin
9T62	VT	Edinburgh	Preston	Preston	2115	* arr 2243 88L
1S98	VT	London Euston	Glasgow Central	Preston	2140	Arr:  2221½  41L
1P07	VT	London Euston	Preston		2300	Cancelled at origin    "Driver"
1P09	VT	London Euston	Preston	Preston	2346	Arr:  2346

* first passenger trains after closure; freight trains ran earlier 

This is only a small fraction of the trains at Preston, the rest being local/regional ones in all directions and not helping much in this case. No doubt some people did cross to the ECML, though I have not heard how many did, whether that was given as advice, or how well it would have worked.

I don't have sufficient information to be able to comment on whether or not better arrangements could have been made this week, for passengers to reach their destinations.

So, I will recount my experiences during the days of the much-mocked British Rail, at a time when there was such a thing as a Taunton-Inverness service. I caught this at Crewe, on what was a challenging day for BR.

Firstly, although the train was on time at Crewe, it was formed of a scratch rake of Mk1 compartment stock; apparently the train had started at Bristol instead of Taunton due to an unspecified fire (not, I may say, the tragic Taunton sleeper fire).

Next, due to a freight train derailment at Weaver Junction (where the Liverpool route diverges from the WCML), the train was diverted via Stockport. A diesel was waiting there to drag the electric loco and train through the suburbs of Manchester, then Bolton, as far as Preston. Something over two hours late, so far, and the train proceeded with its electric loco.

South of Carlisle, the train stopped. In the days before P.A. was universal, the guard poked his head into the compartment to inform passengers that the overhead wires were down just north of Carlisle. Power was off in the station. After a while, the train was dragged into the station by a humble class 08 shunter. A class 47 was waiting to attach to the rear of the train in order to continue the journey via Hexham and Newcastle. A further delay followed as the driver didn't know the route into Newcastle Central; only Tyne Yard. Someone with route knowledge arrived (by taxi?). Off the train went, up the ECML.

The train was now over 5 hours late, but somewhere unseen people were busy planning. On arrival at Edinburgh Waverley, the train was met by trolley loads of sandwiches and drinks, dished out gratis. As this was in the days before the ubiquitous mobile phone, railway staff took messages off anyone who wished to send news to persons at their destination (in my case a B&B in Inverness). The train arrived in Inverness after 02:00, over 5 hours late, but I was not an unhappy passenger, especially as my fantastic B&B host had received the message and waited up to provide me with further refreshment!

So, while BR shouldn't have been having derailments and wires-down incidents, I remain impressed by the resourcefulness used in dealing with multiple problems. I see the modern railway and weep.

Thanks for putting that together, it's useful.

It's an issue that even where there are diversionary routes available, the decisions having been taken with regards to route knowledge, a certain amount of standby capacity, motive power and increasingly tight staffing - and also decisions that limit the capacity of the diversionary routes themselves - results in the sort of issues met with by passengers on Avanti last week.

Mark

Today, the whole kit and caboodle generated an article in the Guardian newspaper.

Mark

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/30/not-magical-certainly-a-mystery-my-five-hour-train-trip-became-an-11-hour-viral-ordeal-no-wonder-people-fly (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/30/not-magical-certainly-a-mystery-my-five-hour-train-trip-became-an-11-hour-viral-ordeal-no-wonder-people-fly)

This absolutely nails it and sums it up - this and so many other similar (and too regular) occurrences over the years - no Business continuity or contingency plan, just wait for it to happen and hope for the best.

And in the aftermath we look for answers, but still nothing adds up. Despite the national discussion of our marathon, no one from the rail network has quite managed to explain how a 5h 41m direct route ended up taking 11 hours via an extra city and a couple of service stops. (An Avanti West Coast spokesperson said the cancellations were due to a “track defect” – must have been a biggie.) No one has quite managed to explain why, despite previous cancellations at Preston, a more organised contingency plan was not in place to support passengers and staff – one that didn’t involve a baffling taxi ride throughout the night.

Going off topic (but still on thread). We've heard of a few instances where passengers are kept on a train far too long.
Where passengers self disembark.
And so on.
Perhaps the needs of passengers need to be considered as well as the incident itself.

The needs of the passengers should be the first consideration, at all times.

Culturally though, that's been a difficult concept for the railway to grasp for a long time, and is why we (too) often find ourselves reading accounts of incidents such as this.