Great Western Coffee Shop

Forgive the self-indulgence here but I was wondering if any of the many knowledgeable posters on this site have any recollection of a serious discussion regarding the reinstatement of passenger services on the Fowey branch. Although hardly a major revenue earner in its heyday, this branch is intact for all but the last half a mile and does see occasional excursions. Could a people-mover and a park & ride for the summer months break even? Fowey ain't St Ives but I always feel that this freight-only line isn't playing the role it could do in local transport.

 
 

One of the First Great Western regional managers explained to me once that even a pack 2 coach train running up and down a branch all day would not break even, although it's possible to do very well, thank you, on a 125 operation.    Reasons included things like:

Lower pence per mile fares on the branch
Fewer miles per hour on the branch
A longer proportion of time spend loading / unloading / turning around
Fewer passengers per crew member
More fuel needed per passenger on the shorter train
More stations served in a given time, so relatively more Network Rail station charges
Shorter distance traffic tend to be more peak-time biased

That's not a full answer to the question, but gives you a flavour of just how uneven the playing field would be for you.

The line doesn't actually go into Fowey it's self anymore, it stops short, also a lot of mods would need to be done at Carne point where the line runs through the unloading point for the CDA hoppers, would probably be a busy branch though if the station at Golant was also reopened.

Thanks for these answers grahame & vacman. It seems such a shame that at least a summer weekends service isn't tried out on this line, though it would of course have to be extended back to Fowey first. Anyone know of any charters/railtours planned over the branch this summer?
 

What about a commuter service for Pymouth starting at "Fowey Parkway" station?

There's nowhere to build a parkway station as the line runs at the bottom of a steep valley with a cliff one side and a river the other!

I'm sure oooooo has a few photos, meanwhile - I found this: http://britishrailphotosbymichaelmcnicholas.fotopic.net/p48969319.html

And the famous golant 'shot' http://ronwestwater.fotopic.net/p40043327.html

Nice  :D

Now to upset just 1 or 2 but I've been in Carne Point China Clay transfer sidings at Fowey Docks and whilst China Clay is running to from Fowey Docks reinstating passenger trains to Fowey is a NON starter.

However it might be Possible and cost about the same to Reinstate a Passenger line from Fowey to St. Blazey.

However when the French company Imerys (Misery is an Anagram) Close All their Cornish China Clay Works down then Fowey can have a Passenger service back.
Not a good move by English China Clays (ECC) to sell out to Imerys who IIRC also own and operate the cheap Brazilian china clay works.

When the China Clay does go, Would make real sense for a regular Plymouth-Lostwithiel-Fowey-St.blazey-Newquay service running over both restored lines into Fowey.

A big shame!

From the look of those photos, the line looks very picturesque and would draw leisure travellers!

Now if I was an FGW PR person, I'd kill to have a photo like that with a DMU featured in my publicity material.

Not related to Fowey but on the south west freight branch side the last ever clay by rail left Marsh Mills today rendering the short branch from Tavistock junction disused. Also this week the last Bitumen wagons where tripped to Cattewater, this terminal also now without traffic.....

Very sad news for rail freight in the South West.

Are there not any new rail freight opportunities in Devon and Cornwall? I know about the freight concentration depot near Exeter Airport, but there must be other possibilities with the sheer volume of freight on our roads.

Taunton Fairwater yard had massivly expanded its freight movements, but in the far south west things are pretty stagnant and I can't see much of a future for the line to Meldon!

Yes, but Fairwater Yard is only temporary, will be all done with in a couple years time...

Just downloaded the new timetable booklet B1 (london-devon/cornwall) from FGW and notice that Lostwithiel is no longer listed in the timetable (it skips Bodmin Parkway to Par).  I know that the Night Riviera no longer calls (meaning very early last train and no nights out in Truro etc) but have FGW's HSTs deserted the capital or Cornwall?



Oh hang on I've now found booklet B3.
God this is complicated!

St Germans, Menheniot, Redruth, Camborne and Hayle have also been left out of timetable B1 even though all have direct trains to London.

I don't expect many people travel from Menheniot to Paddington, but isn't Redruth-Camborne Cornwall's largest built up area? Lots of passengers get on and off at both stations, which also serve Helston and the Lizard. If paper's that scarce they might as well just miss out Cornwall altogether.  ;D

Sadly this counts for less than nothing. Swindon to Salisbury via Trowbridge covers Wiltshire's largest built up area, and the train "service" provided has been progressively cut under FGW.

The service cuts were specified I think by the SRA at the time so would likely have gone ahead even if the franchise was not run by FGW.  The SRA also specified many other cuts that FGW were able to prevent, this may not have been this case if the franchise had been won by another company.

We're a bit "out of area" for Cornwall here but I have to clarify that

a) Cuts specified by SRA on the TransWilts as you say
b) DfT asked FGW to submit a non-competitive price to retain a better service (late '05)
c) FGW submitted a high bid
d) DfT rejected it
e) FGW have within the last year quoted a much lower figure

Had FGW submitted a bid in late '05 that was the same as the price they gave in early '08 (and not I have not considered inflation) there is every chance that the TransWilts would be running a service something like the one show at http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/tp.html (and, by the way, this forum wouldn't have existed!)

You may well ask why FGW went to high in late '05 ... we certainly do!

You can get back from Truro to Lostwithiel on the 2130 Falmouth-Plymouth which leaves Truro at 2200, also, does the 2207 XC from Penzance call at Lostwithiel??

I think they did not want to run the risk of losing the franchise so put in a bid that was almost certain to win it.

and now they (First group)are going to have to start paying for such a high franchise bid, of course the poor passenger will pay higher fares and Staff jobs will go.

I recently discovered that in the mid 90s for a brief period there was a Summer Sunday service on the route of a limited number of trains a day funded (and initiated) by local government. However, it came to grief following hikes in the charges levied. 

Problem being that the haul road form Par Docks to Fowey is built on the trackbed of the route from St Blazey to Fowey.

Youre right about it being a bad idea to sell ECC to Imerys as all they were after is the Technology,.

Perhaps their headquarters could be moved to Newark.  ;)

 :o

Meldon branch seems in quite good health under new ownership by a US freight company who want to expand operations and are very supportive of the passenger operations

Tavistock Jnc has been earmarked for a future possible road/rail freight interchange:

http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/homepage/environmentandplanning/planning/planningpolicy/reportofthejointstudiesarea.htm

I've passed through Lostwithiel a couple of times over the last few days and was wondering what the status is of all the sidings there (on both sides of the crossing). They look rather 'mothballed'.
 

 

The sidings known as the clay yard at Lostwithiel is used very little as most clay trains are too big to fit in the yard and have to use the up or down goods loops.
The yard will only accomodate up to 16 wagons for a loco to be able to run round it.
When the last train from Parkandillick used to stable in there overnight it had to be split into two sidings to fit it all in, this train now runs into Fowey at night instead of first thing in the morning.

Does anyone have any info on when the sidings in the down yard at Lostwithiel are going to be ripped up, whether any are likely to be left (particularly the bay platform one) and what (if any) plans there are for the yard once they're gone?

I appreciate that they see little use, are near Par/St Blazey and, of course up and down loops exist for the clay trains down to Fowey to run around but I shall be sad to see them go. It will also make any reinstatement of a passenger service on the Fowey branch in a rose-tinted future that much harder...

The only thing I've heard/read is that it's rumoured that the yard will be lifted by the end of the year - sorry I can't give you anything more definite than that!

Thanks for the information, alexross42.

Why would NR want to go to the expense of removing an asset that hasn't been used for some years?  It can apply minimum maintenance (i.e. none).  I don't think the only FOC involved (DBS) would show much interest in challenging that as they haven't been used for at least 8 years.

They were used during the recent works in Lostwithiel with a rail vac and other engineering equipment being stored there.

I can't really see the point in lifting them. Yes, they don't have a regular use at the moment but unless the land is being sold for development then they're not doing anyone any harm in being there.

If this article is to be believed, it seems that Cornwall Council are negotiating with Imerys to "open up" the Fowey branch line. If, as the article states, a plan to convert the down sidings at Lostwithiel into a car park goes ahead, there will be no bay platform for any branch line train to use, however. 

http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/cornwall-council-backs-reviving-lostwithiel-fowey-branch-line/story-29435992-detail/story.html

I did wonder how long this article would take to surface !  As the Town Councillor quoted in the article, I can confirm that in conjunction with the Town Forum, Lostwithiel Town Council is pleased to be working with Cornwall Council and others, in a long term bid to improve facilities and service levels at our station.  Among these aspirations are the reopening of the branch line to Fowey to passenger traffic, however we are very aware that there a significant number of hurdles to cross before that can happen.

We hope that more short term aims are to increase the number of services that stop at Lostwithiel, throughout the day, including a later departure of the last trains of the day from Truro and Plymouth to allow people throughout Cornwall to be able to enjoy a full evening out in either city, and be able to travel to and from by train.  Certainly we are confident that the partial resignalling project and eventual stock cascades will help deliver the number of stopping trains.

We are also keen to reinstate the 'up' stop of the Night Riviera at Lostwithiel, and in response to significant public response we are keen to reinstate a footbridge at the station.

While some might consider this to be a big ask for what some consider to be a small station, I suppose the ethos is that if you don't ask you don't get, and we remain keen to point out that we have a population of circa 3000 people living within walking distance of the station.  The final draft of the Cornwall Council sponsored questionnaire has been approved, and while owing to costs it will no longer be a door to door survey, a telephone survey is expected to be done in early autumn.

This is an exciting opportunity for Lostwithiel Station, which has significant local support, and it is very refreshing to be working 'with' a local authority rather than against them !

A friend I was talking to missed her down train recently, she said she'd arrived 10 mins before her train was due, just as the barriers were coming down for an up freight train. The barriers didn't go up again until after her down train had passed.

Exactly why there is a need to reinstate a footbridge.

With the frequency of trains likely to increase following the resignalling project, the level crossing will operate more frequently than now which will cause significant disruption to the train travelling public, and general circulation of road traffic and pedestrians in the town.

One of the possible stumbling blocks in reinstating a footbridge is weather any such bridge has to be DDA compliant with ramps or lifts, as formal designated ramped access is available at each platform end adjacent to the level crossing.  A DDA footbridge such as the one recently installed at St Austell is likely to be prohibitively expensive, where as a replica bridge such as that at Menheniot might be justified.

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge in this area?

The very best of luck to you in your campaign to improve services at Lostwithiel and reinstate a footbridge. The scenic Lostwithiel-Fowey branch line is a real unexploited treasure and in addition to providing a service between the two towns for the locals, and reducing traffic on country roads, it could generate considerable tourist revenue for both. The Okehampton summer Sunday services are possibly a good model to aspire to. In the meantime, let's hope that those siding(s) nearest the bay platform are left intact...

Please accept my apologies for missing that one - I'm usually fairly prompt in picking up such items of local news, and posting them here on the Coffee Shop forum.  :-[

Good luck with your campaign for those improvements!  ;)

I don't, but maybe ask GWR/Network Rail how they managed the new bridge at Kingham, which has no ramps. I think it has passive provision for lifts to be added at a later date.

(As a town councillor here in Charlbury, I sorely wish I'd been on the council at the time the monstrosity of a ramped bridge was put in here. Plenty of simple things that could have been done to make it look less hideous. :( )

No experience but aware of another case. Surely you read The Scunthorpe Telegraph (http://www.scunthorpetelegraph.co.uk/row-erupts-disabled-access-station-bridge/story-25978267-detail/story.html)  ;D ;D

The equality act 2010 requires a facility to allow the disabled person to cross to use facilities at the other platform. Lostwithiels level crossing surely provides this?

I like the quote that "the feedback we get from customers is they would use the station if there was access".

I think something else (http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=BGG&date=20160831) would help attract passengers to the station...

(To be fair, there are a few trains on Saturdays (http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=BGG&date=20160903).)

I'd have thought that if Camborne, with its level crossing and footbridge without lifts, is compliant, then the same reasoning should apply to Lostwithiel.  

And with that premis, then Truro as well?  But they have the benefit of having their original footbridges, and are not having to put a replacement, and hence new bridge back in.  Rumours persist that the original footbridge survives in preservation but further details escape me.

One and All

Please see the attached, which I have permission from Cornwall Council to share.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AsqRsk9ojkQag7VMbT6HEsF6NGWbgg?e=zkRAlT (https://1drv.ms/b/s!AsqRsk9ojkQag7VMbT6HEsF6NGWbgg?e=zkRAlT)

Councillor Colin Martin has today announced via his Facebook that funding is secured. However his political rival says it’s not quite accurate.

“It's official: Lostwithiel is getting a BRAND NEW FOOTBRIDGE!! “

Local election rival Tim Hughes puts some facts into perspective

“For anyone who is interested, this is the latest briefing document from the partnership hoping to deliver a footbridge at Lostwithiel Station.  In the interests of accuracy,  the sentence used is 'Network Rail are committed to finding the full funding for the scheme'.  In the real world, there is a huge gap between finding the full funding and getting the cheque book out.  With the design yet to be finalised, it is impossible to put a price to the contract.  Having been with this project from it's inception 8 years ago, I am confident that it will go ahead, but would hate for people to gain the impression that the Magic Money tree is bearing fruit in the run up to local Council elections.”

Posts are in Facebook group Lost voice: community notice board & discussion group for Lostwithiel area

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lostvoice/?ref=share

I shall unmask myself.  I am Tim Hughes, current Mayor of Lostwitihel, campaigner for a replacement footbridge for the last 8 years, and otherwise strong supporter of Lostwithiel Station.

Have built relationships with CC and the industry and we have seen some great minor investments at the station which have made the traveling experience significantly better.  We were the only station in the Devon and Cornwall area to secure access for all funding to aid access to platform two when the bridge is installed, and thanks are owed to Sheryll Murray MP for helping make this happen.

The officers and staff at CC have been really good throughout this, but now Councillor Martin has hijacked this project and is trying to claim the credit for it.  Anyone would have thought there are Cornwall Council elections brewing..... And yes, I am a candidate in these elections !


https://www.facebook.com/groups/lostvoice/permalink/1095836927522372/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/lostvoice/permalink/1095836927522372/)

Citizens of Earley (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=24648.0) take note - That's how you take control of the news agenda with a footbridge story on a slow news day!

I don’t trust Mr Martin to be honest. I encountered him when he stood to be MP and in a 5 min conversation he contradicted himself and forgot what he’d said earlier in the same conversation

I hope that the installation of a footbridge won't mean that the bay platform is lost; it might be little more than a pipe dream but removal of the bay would make it harder for trains to Fowey to operate again one day.

I know that mention is made in the 'Trewoon' thread of this work, but I feel linking out to the Cornwall Railway Society warrants a separate one. There's an article together with an impressive drone photograph of the worksite dated today (13 Mar 2021) featured here .....

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc/archives/03-2021 (http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc/archives/03-2021)

Check NRW's Twitter for a series of photos from this weekend.

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1370785537980829696

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1371102255764676611

The 'old' bridge doesn't look that old?

40 years old.  The one adjacent to it is approx 140 years old, and just getting a coat of paint.....

NRW Twitter says trains running weekdays. There are a few slots in the day where buses do replace trains

Edit - fixed caps - grahame

A rail defect on the down line (the only one in use at present) led to the service being suspended and all services being replaced by buses this afternoon.

I’m covering the 1245 par to liskeard for the next 3 weeks now.
A colleague is covering the 1138 par to liskeard
And two liskeard to par workings also

An aspiration to lift two of the spans out tonight wind permitting.

A quick heads-up for anyone not aware but the signallers at Lostwithiel and Par are doing things a slightly different way as a consequence of one of the lines being blocked.

I got sent to Lostwithiel on a work errand on Tuesday and had to get the train back. As I was taking photos on the up platform the signalman got my attention and asked if I was intending to get 2P16 (1410 to Plymouth) which I was and I said so. He said that he was having to close the gates earlier than normal due to the wrong-line working of the northbound train from Par. He waited for me to cross and then shut the gates at just after 1350, about 20 minutes before the train was due to depart. This, as he told me and as I saw, was needed because of different working regulations meaning he and another Network Rail (NR) employee (who was trackside just north of the crossing) had to do things between them. So the order went like this:

1. Crossing closed earlier than it normally would be before the train was due to arrive.
2. Signalman reverses points 41, just north of the crossing, to allow the northbound train to cross from Platform 2 onto the usual northbound track on departure.
3. Crossing phones Network Rail (NR) employee who was trackside just north of the crossing.
4. Trackside Network Rail (NR) employee, on instruction of the signaller, clips the points in position and confirms that this has been done.
5. Signaller then pulls the lever to allow the ground disc (LL36) to show proceed.
6. Signaller communicates with his colleague at Par (next box south) and confirms all is in order and that the train can proceed from Par.
7. Train driver approaches Platform slowly at Lostwithiel and is shown yellow flag.

Once 1-6 above has been done the signallers will not unset things for anyone who wishes to get a train but finds themselves on the wrong side of the line. One person found this out while I was awaiting 2P16 and was told no by the signaller. As the signaller pointed out to me if you undid things after the above 6 things have been done it would count as setting the signal (LL36?) against a train (whether the train was in sight of the signal or not) due to Par having been told that everything is done and that the train can come through wrong line from Par and this, in turn, would generate enough paperwork to the end that "the 1410 would become more like the 1435 or 1440" (not my words).

HTIOI,
Dave

Edit:VickiS - Clarifying acronym

More pictures in this NRW Tweet of 24 Mar 2021

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1374718185971257344

Network affecting Job 'Completed' residual non traffic affecting clear-up work to continue.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/rail-improvement-work-completed-in-lostwithiel/

One and All

For information, NR have submitted Pre application information, to Cornwall Council's planning department.

https://planning.cornwall.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=R0VDCLFG0IS00 (https://planning.cornwall.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=R0VDCLFG0IS00)

If the link doesn't work then the application number is PA21/02763/PREAPP which can be typed into the Cornwall Council Planning Website.

Information includes, plan, proposed design etc.

So, work has started this week to lift the redundant clay sidings from adjacent to the bay platform at Lostwithiel.

The bulk of the salvaged tracker apparently heading to the Plym Valley Railway.

Progress towards the footbridge.

Happy days

Looks as if the ill-fated plan for the Lostwithiel footbridge is actually getting somewhere!

£1.8m bridge in the works could stop trespassing on train lines.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/lostwithiel-bridge-hopes-stop-trespassing-7174302

Forgive me for not knowing the correct info,but I thought any new or replacement foot bridges had to be wheel chair compliant.

Possibly under the Equality Act 2010? Though I think that perhaps doesn't apply to railway structures. Anyway, at the moment they seem to be dealing with it by making a promise:

I don’t think footbridge replacements having to have lifts or ramps is a general 100% requirement.  Every now and again a station footbridge is replaced like for like, an example near me was Woolston.  It was a life expired concrete structure, now it’s a modern steel equivalent.  That was within the last ten years or so and presumably legit.  The EWR reopening project is providing new steel footbridges at various places to replace foot crossings, but they aren’t providing ramps as well, again, that’s happening now so can only assume it’s legal. 

Also there is already level access to both platforms so I don't think the  new footbridge can be seen as fundamental to enabling disabled access.

According to this piece in The Construction Index (https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/taziker-makes-progress-with-pultruded-frp-footbridge),
It's going to be one of Taziker's "Legacy FRP bridge designs" - a plastic bridge, in other words. The article says this is an 'access for all' footbridge, which I'm sure is wrong. AFA-ready, more like. There is further here from Taziker (https://taziker.com/capabilities/infrastructure/frp-and-grp-footbridges/) about how they have a lift for these bridges, designed for quick installation and for reliability.

Anyone heard any news on this recently?

Manufacturing of the bridge is reported to be starting this week, with full factory assembly, before dismanting and transporting to Lostwithiel, with a view to installation before year end.

...and the report seems to have jumped the gun regarding the signal box...

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/new-railway-footbridge-lostwithiel-hold-9008019

Has anyone attempted to build a bridge over a railway before?  Seems a tricky thing to do....

The article looks like old news ...
or has 2024 not come to Cornwall yet?

Railway Bridges HAVE been built before, but the experience will come in handy for places like Pilning.

 If they do change their mind, the 'old' footbridge is still at Totnes.
 Rusting away in the old Dairy site.

Blimey, I go to Totnes a fair bit and never noticed it, unless they've dragged it out of sight of the station.... it's a big dairy site.
I'm wondering why it's still there though.  If it hadn't been earmarked for something else I would have imagined that it would have be sold for scrap by now.... makes me wonder if a heritage line has first dibs on it.

Question raised at PMQs today by SE Cornwall MP asking for the PMs help to push this through.
Reply was along the lines of "Network Rail looking for a funding solution in the next financial year"

zzzzzz

Todays Cornish Times...

https://www.cornish-times.co.uk/news/lostwithiel-footbridge-plan-hits-the-buffers-664410

Network Rail is set to install a temporary bridge in the summer

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/lostwithiel-link-to-be-restored-with-first-footbridge-in-50-years

Does it include disabled access as well?

I doubt it. Level access will still be available over the level crossing. Possibly not on the permanent bridge that follows it too.

New access ramp to the down platform being built at the moment to bypass the narrow existing ramp beside the front of the signal box.  Not seen any design for either the temporary or future bridge yet, as ever it is all about available funds.

With thanks to all of our members here who have, over the years, provided so much varied information about Lostwithiel - may I explain?

I was simply trying to find a reference to 'disabled access via ramp', just to compare it with our situation at Nailsea & Backwell, when I found that there were some ten or twelve other topics here, all relating to 'Lostwithiel'.

I've therefore merged them all into this 'definitive' topic relating to Lostwithiel - purely for ease of future reference.  ;)

Actually, there's some fascinating stuff here, if you have a couple of minutes to browse back.  ;D

Good call on merging it all Chris, Thank you.

Lostwithiel still awaits it's fabled temporary bridge, and there is much riding on it politically locally.

The temporary structure puts 'Tanks on the Lawn' in the event of a government change as an ongoing rental expense that cannot be ignored by any future rail minister.  If said temporary bridge doesn't materialise soon, then there will be a lot of 'loss of face' by our incumbent MP, who has put significant effort into progressing the project, which will only be siezed on by her opposition who is typically all to keen to ride on the coat tails of others.

It is 10 years since I started asking for this bridge, and have learnt not to hold my breath !

Surveying underway today for both the temporary, then permanent footbridges.

When they are finished could you send them To Pilning?...

Via Nailsea & Backwell, please.  ;D

Construction of the temporary bridge is underway!

The CRS website reports the lifting in of the bridge deck, with images:
http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc
Go to 12 August 2024 (below the interesting article about rail served public executions at Bodmin!).

My photos!  Was great to watch it with my 9 year old .

Feature on BBC spotlight local news,on Sunday afternoon 25 august 2024

to be in place for 18 months until a permanent solution can be found!

Thread is here
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2681.msg349493#new

Thanks for your post, ChrisB: I've now merged infoman's topic into this existing one - purely in the interests of clarity and continuity.  :)

Can't for the life of me find what I recall was a specific thread on 'pubs near stations', but for information Castle  Brewery have opened a new cellar door style outlet for their outstanding range of ales.

Just behind the old livestock dock,, 'up' side of Lostwithiel Station.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61562805179990

Cheers