Great Western Coffee Shop

I thought it was about time we saw what is hated, if anything, most about the refurbed HSTs.

They seem to have caused some controversy, with some liking, others not.

Please also see this Poll I did a while back.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=905.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=905.0)
If you didn't vote please do.
The results found that more people liked refreshed HST's than disliked.

Well I voted for Nothing- The HST Refurb Was Great.

Didn't notice that! Have voted.

Luckily, this poll is different!

Lets see if the results match - perhaps 6 months on the refurbs have changed some opinions!

Who thought the refurb was a disaster?

woody no dount  ;)

Shame there was no option for all of the above.

The only GOOD thing was the power sockets (oh and movable arm rests)

Isn't that broadly what Absolutely Everything means? That got my vote.

The two things I don't like too much about them are the very stark decoration and dazzling lights (compared to the cool, relaxing feeling of the ones pre-refurbished) and also the seats are far less comfortable. But as I very rarely go on HSTs, I can't comment too much ;)

this is one of them things people will always disagree on.

in my opinion the quality of the refurb is very good,i can however understand peoples points regarding tables if on long journeys.
the thing i dislike is the super bright lights but that is easily sorted by operating the half light switch at the end of carriage and in turn you can see out of the windows a bit better.although the increased reflection is as a result of the new laminated windows which have been fitted for safety reasons since the hatfield crash.

people slag off different things about the refurbed sets but i bet it was the same with the older carriages when they were refurbed years ago.

Does my memory deceive me or were most of the seats in second class around tables. it was the introduction of more airline seats in the previous refurb that started the rot? I didn't like the pevious refurb.

Intercity were the ones who go rid of the 'table for all' policy. Personally I'd much rather travel airline, when alone.

my point exactly some prefer tables some prefer not to have tables.

Pre 2007 refurb, how many table were their per carriage?

A73 ish, loner seat is my fav!

Coach A=8
Coach B,C,D=9
Coach E=14

Gosh! That is a lot of tables that have gone!

Do FGW still run the family carriage (E) now that tables have gone?

It is in D now which has 2 or 4 tables rather than 0 or 3.

I don't actually 'hate' anything about the refurbished HSTs - so I voted accordingly.  ;)

For example: I travelled Nailsea to Paddington and back on Tuesday - two hours each way, giving me ample time to jot down impressions of my latest HST travel experience.

The airline seats are practical, even for families: two pairs of seats is no more difficult to find than a table.  The reduction in the number of tables also means there is less scope for lone travellers to take up all four seats around a table by putting a coat on one, a bag on another, and then sitting with a broadsheet newspaper spread out over both of the opposite two seats.  Moveable armrests give much greater flexibility of seating, and the high seat backs give greater privacy if people want to work.  The firm seats encourage better posture, but they are by no means uncomfortable - the chap sitting next me and I both found no difficulty in nodding off by about Swindon, I noticed!  There is also plenty of legroom - I'm 6 foot, but I didn't have any problem with 'stretching my legs'.

The view from the window is generally fine - yes, the tinted glass and reflection does reduce clarity, but I reckon you still see more interesting sights from a train than you do from a car on the M4.  Besides, I noticed that most of my fellow passengers (those who weren't asleep) were working on laptops, listening on ipods or talking (furtively or loudly) on their mobiles, and not looking at the passing scenery at all.

The buffets (as I've posted elsewhere - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2604.msg19646#msg19646 ) are absolutely brilliant.

And finally, I think the pink 'Mickey Mouse' ears as grab handles are quite fun!  They certainly catch the eye, which surely is their purpose - and thus reduce the chances of a stumbling passenger inadvertently clutching at the wig of some poor person sitting in an aisle seat, if the train lurches unexpectedly?

For the record, my trains were both dead on time, each way: thanks, FGW!  ;D

Speaking  as a passenger and not staff I have the following to say:

I don't really "hate" anything about the refurbished HST's, I find standard class comfortable and I like my privacy so high back seats are pretty good for me and I am not the tallest person in the world :D. The seat back tables fit my laptop with no problem and I can comfortably use it, the lighting can be bright, but by putting the setting on "dim" so only half the lights are on improves things.
First class seats not slippery at all and rather comfortable :)

What you have failed to mention, and what I believe is the biggest issue, is the toilets. Sensors occasionally failing to work, broken flushes. Although I know this is a problem they are trying to resolve.

Overall I would say I prefer them as they are now.

Just out of idle curiosity on my part, Ollie: when did you last travel in first class?   ;) :D ;D

Nobody so fat has voted for the "slippery" First Class seats! :P

I was tempted to vote slippy seats - because they *are* quite slippy.... lights did it for me.

The dim setting should be the default one.

I can't really pick at any parts of the HST's i guess...they are an ok all round train.
Only think i could think of is that their vestrible floor is less comfy that on a voyager class
Amount of time i spent sitting on the floor in a voyager vestrible, definatly more comfy.
but that could just be me  :D

Surely the fat ones can wedge themselves in... (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/ooops_cut.gif)

Well actually the problem is if you are short and short limbed!

If you "sit" in the seat your legs dangle in mid air and you cant reach the table

You end up having to perch on the edge!

Not really a great reason, but I think they seem a little 'uncosy'.. probably to do with the lighting.

POLL LOCKED

The biggest problem is the lighting....

But the most popular choice is nothing is wrong.
But the most amount of people don't like the refurb.

No, that's not true, since the poll was biased. (Hint: Try and work out what the responses would have been if the original question was 'What do you like about the HSTs'...)

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't like it to put that message across.
The HST Refurb is good.

Yes, I agree, Conner:


 ;) :D ;D

Depends on your POV - if I could have voted on al of them:



Lack of table seat - pretty much guarantees I will NOT go standard - but this is a plus for FGW
High seat backs - claustrophobic - for longer distance commuters, the natter on the train is a plus
Lack of luggage space - not good - the train is supposed to replace the car - it cant if people cannot carry stuff
Restricted views - if I wanted to travel in a coffin I would (note: until my recent eviction to SC I would have commented but now I have experienced it, sheesh)
"Slippery" First Class seats - here here
Lighting too bright/lack of individual lights - here here
Cannot see out windows, only my reflection - here here
Uncomfortable Second Class seats - here here here here here
Absolutely everything. The refurb was a total disaster = nope - power sockets are a major improvement

It is only because there are power sockets I didnt vote for everything!

The survey should have listed every change and allowed voters to vote for however many applied.

e.g. if you have long nails - the new toilet flush is impossible to operate

Lack of tables seats is a very good thing, they can't run a service with every seat a table in Standard it would be Full and Standing.

High Seat Backs are required by law! Why don't people realise that!!!! Nothing FGW can do!

Luggage space is fine until people bring there whole house on holiday.

Lighting is fine on Dim, which it usually is (or easy to turn onto if it is not)

I can see perfectly out of the window.

Standard Seats are very comfortable IMHO, more comfortable than Richmond seats.

Erm ... the new toilet flushes generally don't work - whatever the length of your fingernails!  ::)

Lack of tables seats is a very good thing, they can't run a service with every seat a table in Standard it would be Full and Standing. - no they cant under the current model - but at the moment the short distance commuter is given preference over the market the HST should be catering for.  A compromise between every seat having a table and the current situation is the compromise - sorry - that was the pre refurb situation

High Seat Backs are required by law! Why don't people realise that!!!! Nothing FGW can do - no but society can.  So many stupid rules are brought in for our protection - if people actually stood up for thei convictions then maybe we wouldnt be nannied.  The chances of being in a train crash is slim - why we have to have crash proof seats is therefore beyond me.  I have more chance of being run over than being in a train crash - but I dont dress like the michelin man to enable me to bounce if I am hit by a car! Same with SDO - only the terminally stupid step out of a train if there is no platform - they deserve what they get.  Yes I know it is because of a litigous society - but frankly - people should only be able to claim if they can apply a reasonable intelligence test.

Luggage space is fine until people bring there whole house on holiday - I commute dailye but have a laptop back pack, a gym bag, and often two carrier bags of supermartket wear - where do I put it?

Lighting is fine on Dim, which it usually is (or easy to turn onto if it is not) - but they dont/wont run it on dim

I can see perfectly out of the window - glad you can

Standard Seats are very comfortable IMHO, more comfortable than Richmond seats - they are more uncofrtable than old first seats - apart from one journey I cant comment what the old standard were like

I prefer the current situation- more seats when it is busy but I can still get a tabl if I want but I ususally choose airline.

I prefer to be safe in case I am in a train accident than have low seats which are bad for your back anyway.

If in FC you have tons of space between seats and racks at the end and under seats there is a lot of overlooked space. (I remeber crawling under a Standard Seat easily).

I always see it on dim in Cornwall. Just ask if it isn't or just change it yourself.

You really can't compare FC and SC. Old FC seats were extremely comfortable, best on the railway. That is why I am probably going FC just to get one tommorow. Otherwise 158 seats are the best. Old SC seats were much less comfortable IMHO, prefer new ones by far. New FC seats are stupid for FC, SC is more comfortable.

Please note, this was a poll on "what do you hate about the HSTs.

Not, "who lies them" - that poll has already happened and there is a link somewhere on this thread to it.

The standard class IC70 seats imho were the best seats ever, first class weren't overly good and somewhat hard.

I know that; the problem was the erroneous conclusion Conner made from the final results. You need to interpret the question as well as the votes!

The only criticism I would make of the poll itself was the absence of a 'Don't Know/No Opinion' option.

So what do I actually like about the refurbed HSTs....?

Not that much - lack of tables/space. As I've said elsewhere for me, personally, travelling by train shouldn't be like travelling on an airline. Oh and the loos don't seem to work as well as they used to, always seems to be a slight problem with flush or taps.

Yesterday I travelled Cheltenham/Paddington and return and managed to bag table both ways - real bliss (except I'm not sure the the tables are as large as before, prompting a comment from my "neighbour" on the up service).

The thing I hate - they remind me of how old I am getting I started an apprenticeship in BR(W) days when the 252 (the prototype) was doing the odd public duty.   Unlike me they have had a make over and look a lot younger than their 30 plus years

The HST is a great testimony to BRB's DM&EE designers at the RTC Derby

So all of the hst carriages have the option to change the lighting to dim?  A lot of the carriages IO have been in only seem to have on / off buttons/?

All of BR's Mk1 to 3 coaches had / have a half light facility, was originally intended for carriage cleaners to use so that the batteries were not flatten when they were cleaning.  The dim / bright switch is located inside the carriage just inside the sliding door on the toilet bulkhead near the ceiling at one end of the coach

I've recently found something about them I like.... the armrest between the seats that you can put down when the person in the adjacent seat insists on occupying half of yours as well. I've used the tactic twice recently, and it's very effective at returning them to the area that they have paid for.

 

Personally I prefer the pre refurb coaches - I find the new ones less comfortable and rather claustrophobic. I appreciate that high seat backs are now a safety standard but the rank upon rank of airline seats makes it a) impossible to see whether a seat is occupied when you board the train and b) severely restricts views out of the window (part of the pleasure of train travel). A few more tables would break up the monotony, open up the views and considerably improve things - one only has to look at the GNER/ NXEC refurbished mark IIIs which also incoporate high sea backs (though they seem at first glance to have got away with rather shorter ones than FGW) to see what can be achieved with a bit of thought and proper design. Its a sad state of affairs when Southern region commuter stock operated by South Eastern, C2C, Southern and SWT is now a pleasanter travel experience than inter-city trains on what was once one of Britain's premier main lines. Still, things could be worse, they could be as uncomfortable as standard class in a Virgin pendelino where the seating appears to be a complete afterthought as anyone whos sat next to a blank wall for hours will know !   

Never travelled standard on Pendolinos but I can tell you that first class is rather nice! ;)

Interesting comment that. A couple of our head office staff travelled down to Bristol this week, and without being asked commented how the train was so cramped, and indeed much more so than the trains on their line (Great Northern as was, so Cl 365 or 317).

I also travelled recently from London to Edinburgh, out on an unrefurbished HST and back on a Mallard style refurbed set. I much preferred the latter, so it is possible to refurb a train to modern safety standards, and not have the high density and claustrophic ambience that is now a fact of life on FGW. 

FGW are are between a rock and a hard place on this one.On other long distance routes(ECML/WCML etc which are electrified),commuter services at the London end particularly have their own high performance rolling stock with internal layouts optimised for the commuters, leaving the inter-city trains to cater for the longer haul with internal layouts to match.(Bristol/Padd is now a commuter not inter city route)
On FGW they have had to adopt a one size fits all with the HST refurb, with its inevitable compromises for longer distance passengers where rail is now competing with vastly improved road and air links.ie Ryanair fly Stanstead/Newquay twice daily,British Airways fly Gatwick/Newquay once daily and local airline Air south West fly Gatwick/Plymouth/Newquay 4 times a day.You can also drive motorway/dual carraigeway to almost Truro(Door to Door) now while much the rail route west of Exeter still remains slow and sinuous.
While rail commuters often have little choice but to put up with things, longer distance passengers these days do not necessarily have to accept compromises.
 At the end of the day FGW have done what any company would do,that is play to its strengths which now lie in the short/Medium distance market which the FGW HST refurb is unashamably aimed at.

If it is the case that high-backed seats are now compulsory, how is it that according to the June issue of Modern Railways magazine, East Midlands Trains is retaining the existing low-backed seat shells when it refurbishes its HSTs?

I don't have anything against high-backed seats per se, it's just that FGW's seem to me to be about an inch too high, hence the claustrophobic feel - and the inability to see if seats further along a coach are occupied until you're almost on top of them.

If you retain the seat shells you're OK, as all you're doing is reupholstering them. If you replace then they have to meet the new standards.   

Don't you mean double standards?

Morning

I have also had the pleasure of travelling on a
few occasions, a refurbed HST coach and agree
with the comments posted.

My biggest gripe is the lack of custioning in the
seat bottoms, especially on the bottom (pun
intended).  There are really uncomfatable after an
hours travelling, to the point that my journey is
not pleasurable anymore.  I'm not overally fused
about the height (although I understand the previous
commemts sent), but there doesn't seem to to be any
padding, or is the padding made of hardboard?  I
suppose it has to be a certain material, with a
certain amount of wadding to meet H&S criteria?
I noticed the seats on Voyagers are pretty simular
in thickness, so assume the above?

Also (and I think this has been posted before), the
seat backs seem to be far more forward in proping
you up, now if there was an accident and the coach
was thrown around a bit, surely there is more
likelyhood of you been thrown out of your seat than
on a unrefurb seat?!  So how is that design of seat
meeting current H&S regulations?  Surely the idea
is so that people are not thrown forward onto quite
a hard plastic back especailly for kids/frail and
elderly passengers?

Regards


Karl.

Morning John R and All

Agree with John regarding the Mallard refurbs the
late GNER did.  There HST were in my opinion the
best, with First Class even having table top lamps!
Its a shame that "Sea Containers/GNER" didn't get
the renewed contract for the ECML.  However I did
also travel on a c91 from Berwick - Newcastle an
found the seat slightly too far foward, uncomfatable
and that wasn't a good match to the window as well.

Also agree with "Southern" and "South Central"? with
their newish c375 electrics, (are Southern ones 377?).
Found those to be quite comfy, especially if you have
a bank of seats or table to yourself!

Regards

Karl.

I like....

airline seats for when I'm travelling alone
the moveable armrests
the internal colour scheme
the seat back tables and laptop rest
the amount of legroom in the airline seats
the power points
the more effective air conditioning - i.e. the coaches are cooler and less stuffy than before
the toilets
the buffet
improved pa clarity
the lack of Adelante-style automated announcements

I don't like....

the yellow windows
the over bright lights (even at half power they are too bright)
the very poor positioning of the table seats relative to the windows - this could have been got right
the hardness of the seats
1st class leather seats - they are of such poor taste and will look dated very quickly