Great Western Coffee Shop

Barry Doe writing in the latest rail magazine says the following and I have to say that I agree with him totally on this one,

"Now that I have used them a number of times. I think First Great Western^s HST^s have received the worst refurbishment ever to have been undertaken on any train.
Standard class being virtually all airline-style travel must now be a turn-off for families and even when there are tables some have very restricted views owing to window pillars. Some airline seats have no view at all for the same reason.
This is a train configured to maximise seat numbers for commuter journeys like London-Reading with no regard for the fact people also have to endure them from London to Penzance.
In first class the leather seats are slippery and will no doubt get extremely hot if the sun shines on them in summer.
It is also the only first class without reading lights, occasioned by the fact that the strip lights in the ceiling are so vivid you supposedly don^t need them.
In fact, the lighting even spoils views out of the window on sunny days. It cries out for softer lighting and individual reading lights, as other trains offer.
I recently switched from one at Westbury on to one of the South West Trains^ superb two-car Class 158s, normally used on the new ^figure of six^ Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey service. Surely the most luxurious suburban train in the country, it really showed the HST and I^d far sooner do London-Penzance in the Class 158.
 Whats your view?

If I was going to London from Camborne and I had my way I would use the one a week SWT Class 159 service. Up on a sunday back on a Saturday, it is much nicer and much more comfortable.

I'd tend to agree with you there Conner, although you cannot get advance purchase fares on that particular route on SWT. You'd have to get TOC inter-available tickets to Exeter

Here is a photo of the SWT Class 158 interior :

(http://www.raildocuments.org.uk/jan08photos/270108swt158.jpg)

Missing the PIS/CIS I might add, Lee. ;)

Indeed. January 2008 photo, and I recall you mentioning the impending arrival of Celia.....

Yes, but surely the SWT service is much slower than the FGW HST - even if it is more reliable, cheaper and more comfortable.

Well i couldnt disagree more Woody!!!!! The HST refurb places it much better than a voyager and 175/180
we all know it was designed to fit as many people seated as possible, point is many HSTs are running about full and standing.
so what actually did you want FGW to do ,just tart up the old seats and get even more people to stand. thalf the lights can easily be switched off you know
The first class seats are exactlythe same as the GNER Mallard stock but trimmed in leather and the much loved SWT 158 refrubishment is near enough the same as FGW 158 refurb on of course the units which have retained the original seats.
So i really dont know what you have got to moan about

New covers on the existing seats would have been an awful lot cheaper, as well as leaving more tables and retaining one's line of sight down the coach. Flip the buffet car round and convert it to standard class - how many times I wonder are 2 1st class coaches completely full - , and you would have created more standard class seats than achieved by the refurb.

And then, with all that money FGW would have saved, they could have invested elsewhere on the franchise, either by retaining the Adelantes that suddenly everyone wants (including First Group), or on the local services.

Yes the HST's were starting to look shabby, but they didn't need to gut them and rebuild everything inside to sort that and provide a decent passenger environment. 

The only thing i'm personally against is the lighting. I was trying desperately to look out of the window yesturday, but all i could see was myself... desperately trying to see out of the window!

Not convinced by that - the design of the seats is different IMHO.

But they are the same as the SWT 159 First Class seats although SWT don't have leather.


Will Celia work all the way to Penzance?

Slower, Yes.
More reliable, usually, definatly more punctual.
Cheaper, No, FGW: 2 adults and 3 children on a Famil Railcard from Camborne to London on the cheapest fare: ^56 overall, very cheap.
More comfortable, definatly.

Celia will be in operation all the way to Penzance assuming the traincrew set it up. I doubt it will be in operation on the Sundays until Exeter as I can't see FGW showing their traincrew how to use the PIS system (although it is awfully simple).

The cheapest return fare from Camborne to London Paddington is 2x^28.35 singles (^56.70) for all passengers in the new fares system. The cheapest fare available on the SWT with through ticketing with no splitting it is ^141.75, Saver Return.

With splitting at Exeter St Davids, it can work out to ^58.60 saver return valid on any train, and 2x^22.70 singles (^54.85) for all passengers. Although this fixes you to certain trains after Exeter St Davids, it does allow you to get any train after Exeter giving you additional flexibility. Not quite as cheap as FGW singles, though.

Edit: There is also AP singles available from Plymouth to Waterloo and back, 2x^26.45 working out to ^52.90. You can then add ^27.35 Saver Returns onto that, working out to ^80.25. Only ^23.55 extra than FGW for additional comfort. ;) This ticket combination would work on any Plymouth to London South West Trains services.

Thanks for that.
Won't convince my Dad though, he refuses to do Plymouth-Camborne on a unit and says it is one of those horrible little trains, although it is six car.
Journey time is longer as well.

The Penzance/Plymouth/Paigntons are booked 3.159 to Exeter, where either 3.159 or 6.159 are attached.

Journey time difference is negligible compared to services that either stop all shacks via the Berks and Hants, or go via Bristol during engineering works. I must add though, if you're going FC go on FGW, standard class go for SWT.

Also, it depends where you are staying in London. For instance, if you are staying in south, west or east London, it is quicker overall to go via SWT (change into West London Line at Clapham, for east London change into W&C at Waterloo). If you're staying in north London then almost definately go via Paddington - with the exception of areas like Epping or Cockfosters.

Well, we will be fixing ourselves to certain trains for all the journey anyway so I have got.
^45.40 for the Exeter-London leg.
And ^22.70 for the Camborne-Exeter leg.
Only ^68.10 overall which I may be able to convince my family with as it will mean a table.
The train Camborne-Exeter would also be a Cross Country HST.
No idea where we are staying yet, it will be in August, up Friday back Monday.
Definatly not going FC, no point really for a family.

Some people in this thread think that the original seats should have been reupholstered. The old IC70 seats are not safe in a crash and shards of plastic come from them. FGW have an excellent safety record and therefore decided to replace the seats, but all new seats must be high backed, so they are. As for the seats being low - i'd say they were actually quite high.

Can't quite believe that completely - shards of plastic ok, seats not safe in a crash - what train seat isn't really?

The real way of doing it would have been creating a new IC70 seat that complied with current legislation. ;)

Let's get real here - the FGW Mk III refurbs are a disaster. If you travel by rail you don't expect Ryanair standards and, as I've said elsewhere on this site, the pink seat top grab handles resemble a row of Mickey Mouse ears.

To my mind. BR Western Region was generally OK, Great Western Trains were pretty good, but FGW - forget it. The overall service just gets worse year on year. Be done and renationalise - oh, but change the wretched government first. The Conservative nationalisation was a disaster but the Labour government's milking of rail passengers (along with most every other section of society) is just a scandal.

I think that's me. It's the first I've heard that the seats weren't considered safe, and does give a rationale as to why they were replaced. I'm surprised that this wasn't more widely publicised, either in reports on previous accidents, or in extolling the benefits of the refurb.

And they are much too high. But it's too late to do anything about it now.

  

There was a time when travelling by train was a pleasurable experience. Unfortunately the refurbished HSTs have just about killed any enthusiasm I have for travelling on them. Had the opportunity of some bargain fares on holiday, but couldn't quite bring myself to dragging the family along, so "train ride" slipped further and further down the agenda until it fell off the end.

I like the HSTs - comfortable seats and my legs fit! Loads of leg room - only danger is, I might fall asleep!

SWT - unless you're a midget then your legs don't fit - my knees fit just by the ridge that runs below the table and if there is someone next to me then they generally get fed up with the footsie and leg rubbing from me trying to get comfy.

Voyagers are good for leg room too - SWT - would not want to be on one any longer than the 30 mins from Exeter to Newton Abbot.

Old HST seats were awful, the airline ones had no legroom, there was that horrible non moveable arm rest, if your tall then your head had nothing to lean on as the seats were so low, you had too look at everyone else in the coach as there was no seat in front to hide behind. The new refurb seats have far more leg room, the seats are a little harder but prop you into a more comfortable (and back-friendly) posture, power points for mobiles, admittedly there are less tables but that means less people standing so i'm all for that and when working on them passengers are always complimenting how nice they are!

Could not agree more, most people who would use FGW HSTs from Devon and Cornwall wil bemoan the loss of once a great train for longer distances.Just watch an empty HST being boarded at Penzance or Plymouth,its always the very limited table seats that people rush for first.I recently saw a lighty loaded HST leaving Penzance with all the limited table seats occupied and most of the airline seats empty,say no more.
The busines model being forced on FGW by the Dft reflects the overwhelming domination of the commuter market on the franchise.Combine a train that is no longer suited to the longer haul to Devon/Cornwall with the slow rail route west of Exeter and its no wonder that people here are turning to improved road and air links for the longer haul in these parts when it should be the other way round.Thankfully the loss of longer distance passenger here is being made up by a boom in local travel within the two counties encouraged by very cheap local fares.For instance a Penzance to Paddington train will often see far more people leaving the train at Plymouth(day trippers from Cornwall) than Boarding it for onward destinations as I experienced boarding the up "limited" at Plymouth last Saturday morning.Coach A where I was was virtually empty as we left Plymouth

I took one of these trains today.

The standard class configuration is more like that of a bus than of a long-distance train.

Terribly destructive of any sense of companionship - whether for families, or friends travelling together.

But that's so typical of the old FGW regime. No emotional intelligence whatsoever.....

The wonderful Mk 3 carriage has been totally wrecked by First. After years of train travel I have stopped using them for long trips. Who wants to look at a seat back or worse have no window when one of the pleasures of rail travel was to look at the scenery. They are no longer suitable for five hours from Cornwall. In the past I have done day trips from Cornwall but I would not even consider it on these refurbished trains.

The interior layout may be OK for commuter shuttles but even then the end doors make the station dwell time too long.

First should have made two fleets and left the long distance versions with the previous internal layout.

Reading the comments this appears to be the case as people using the trains for day to day commuting like the layout for working with their laptops etc etc but people using the train for long distance trips especially as groups find them awful.

Travelling on an up HST at Camborne on Saturday many people were getting in after Trevithick day and there were many comments about 'where are are the tables?' and seats not lining up with the windows.

The 150/153 and 158 refurbishments seem good from what I have seen. To me it is only the Mk 3s that seem so retrograde.

I do agree with the comments about the comparison between SWT 158/159s and a refurbished First Mk3. The SWT units are a real pleasure to travel in and you can see everything and no sign of that horrible pinky mauve colour!!

On another note, was there a temporary timetable yesterday, Sunday, for the Falmouth line? I was waiting for the 1604 from Falmouth Docks which breezed in about 1620 and left after no rush about 1625. I pointed out to one of the train crew the timetable said 1604 and she said that was wrong. Even the new May timetable shows it as 1604. Anyone know for my trip next week?

Revised Bank Holiday branch line times for next week can be found in the link below.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2341.msg17497#msg17497

I really don't know where you get the idea that less people are travelling long distance from Cornwall! do you have anything to back it up? when working London services I find that there are a hell of a lot MORE long distance passengers than there was 10 years ago! The internal refresh is down to personal choice but I very rarely get complaints, most long distance commuters (yes we even have some of those these days! I know a couple of Tru-Padd commuters who travel two or three times per week) prefer the refurbs as they can hide themselves in an airline seat and no be distracted all the way to Padd, there are a few moans and groans about lack of tables but regular commuters have been (rightly so) prioritised by cramming in more seats so less of them have to stand, something HAD to be done about overcrowding and now it has. As for having two seperate fleets, well that will happen eventually as the 2+7 sets will be high density (the coaches that currently have 2 tables per coach) and the buffet sets, 2+8, will be Low density sets with 4 tables per coach, which incidently is the SAME amount of tables as a voyager which are far worse trains than refreshed HST's!

Everone is entitled to their opinion, thats what forums are all about and of course working for FGW is bound to effect that opinion will it not.Thankfully I and others here are free spirites.
Many people I have spoken to would pefer to travel on a SWT 158/159 than those dreadful refurbed HSTs.Personally I now think there is a case for re-drawing the FGW franchise regards Devon and Cornwall.Terminate FGW services at Exeter and let them get on with running their commuter railway and hand over Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance section to SWTrains,redouble Exeter/Salisbury to speed up that route to provide a real altenative to FGW as was  proposed by SWTrains a few years ago when 20 year franchises were being mooted.(Just look how successful the 20 year Chiltern Railways franchise has been).The parallels between the competing Virgin West Coast/Chiltern and FGW/SWT are quite striking.Of course it wont happen after all FGW have been allowed to get away with  blue murder for 2 years and the dft dont care a damn about transport  investment in Devon and Cornwall beyond improving road and air links,all they are concerned with is getting their premiums from franchisees,which on FGW means keeping the commuters happy at any cost even if its longer distanced passenger are marginalised.

Give the 158's a few months to fall apart!

But woody, commuters bring more money into FGW that your average family all on Value Advance E tickets, so what do you expect them to do? FGW is a business and the train are here to stay. Get over it!

Whatever happens, I want to keep FGW down here.
Stopping at Exeter would be disatorous for any people who use the train. Their would be less trains and longer journey times.
SWT Class 159's are better than FGW HST's but I would quite  happily travel on a HST to London and it has certainly not put me off travelling on them, that would be the end of 158's down here.  :'(

Hang on woody.... one minute you say that journey times are too long, and then you say that FGW services should terminate at Exeter making th journey even longer?????? make your mind up! Anyway, you keep banging on about less people travelling from Cornwall to London because 5 minutes has been added to Pnz-Padd services but you cant produce anything to back it up??? I KNOW that more people are travelling long distance year on year, at the end of the day we now have TEN, yes TEN direct Pnz-Padd services mon fri in winter , ELEVEN in summer plus the weekday Newquay-Padd service (12 services from Cornwall) of which only 3 of them are "stoppers", when before we became "Greater" western in 2006 we only had 8 weekday services all year round, just because you don't like the refurb it doesn't mean that the whole world is going to boycott FGW! withe ever increasing fuel cost's it is far cheaper to go by train even on a saver let alone on leisure tickets!

I would like to make it clear that I am not anti GWT indeed I want them to succeed because lets face it they are the only show in town in these parts,indeed its in the regions interest that they do.However there still much room for improvement despite things getting much better recently under new managment as the transport world around us is not standing still.
 As for the HST refurb disregarding the very high seat backs( spoiling the view),lack of tables and bright lights the the refurb would actually be near perfect and the mechanical and electrical improvements to the HST power cars is top notch.
 As for ridership figures perhaps someone could direct me to a source of reliable up to date figures rather than making unsubstanciated claims.Certainly up to 2007 Network rail said in its Great Western "Route Utilisation strategy" that growth in rail travel from Plymouth and Cornwall was "minimal" compared to that from Exeter and Taunton to London and the Midlands.
 

I wouldn't really call them "unsubstanciated claims"

Anyhow, when I travel in the direction of London and the train has come from Penzance its often very busy and often full and standing past Exeter/Taunton. Thus proving that a fleet of lower density trains wouldn't actually be very beneficial to the SW. If a train is full, standing for 5 hours plus is a nightmare, so the more seats the better. Its only a handful of trains that are 'empty' as you so often claim!

"minimal" growth is not "less passengers" it still means more people are travelling! The very high seat backs by the way are a requirement for all high speed stock after the Ufton Nervert crash.

I think you might be reffering to the Network Rail Route Plans, because the last Great Western Route Utilisation Strategy was published by the SRA in 2006, and Network Rail's new version is due to be published in 2009. Quote from the recent Network Rail Strategic Business Plan Update (link below) :
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/StrategicBusinessPlan/RoutePlans/2008/Route%2012%20-%20Reading%20to%20Penzance.pdf


Further quotes :


Another point of interest is that the line between Plymouth-Par/St Blazey is projected to acheive high tonnage growth to 2017.

On usage figures, the next set are due to be released by the ORR in May.

Over the past 10-15 years, all rail systems in the UK have grown significantly. and there is no reason to suspect this growth to stop, particularly with road congestion and fuel prices.

Whether we like it or not, trains will have to carry more people, and refurbishments that reduce storage, legroom and tables, but add another 50+ seats on an HST train are essential, if unwelcome.

EXcept there is no point being able to carry more people if they cant take their belongings with them

Ban bikes and use the Luggage area of the TGS For LUGGAGE

Then some crackpot terrorist turns up with a bomb...

Or someone makes off with your luggage at a station where you aren't getting off.

I would say that growth of passenger numbers in Cornwall has been huge. Trains are packed. 2 car DMU's now struggle in the middle of the day. It is because fares are rediculosly cheap.

Similarly in Devon

Combined with the introduction of 4-car trains making it look like their is more room.

Network Rail forecast significant growth for local services to Exeter, mainly on the Exmouth branch and from the south Devon area.

surely there IS more room on a 4 car DMU than a 2 Car...........or am i mssing something??

Yes. It's an entire illusion.

4-car 142 has less room than a 150+153.
And it isn't that much more than a 142 in a single 150.
142's do have more standing room.

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW are axing buffet cars? >:(

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The new HSTs are not comfortable - would not want to sit in them for too long.

But plenty of room, and I have had a view when I've been on them. Ok, not as good as a table, but not as bad as a typical Voyager view. ???

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Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW are axing buffet cars? >:(

If they do - they take the "heart" out of the train

apparently on some services they will run 2+7 i believe there will be some spare buffet cars the rest will be converted to make at least one full set of carriages?

this is just a rumour i have heard so is unconfirmed as far as iam aware

Regards the HST refurb,FGW quote health and safety requirements as the justification for those very high HST seats,why then are FGW retaining much lower seats in the 150/153/158 refurb and for that matter why has FGW not ripped out the tables and put in more seats on the 158s on the Cardiff/Porstmouth route.Surely there is more reason to provide class 158 accommadation on a Penzance/Paddington HST than the much shorter  Cardiff/Porstmouth route.
 FGW seem to have got it just right with the refurbed 158s,maybe they have learnt from their errors on the HST refurb.

DMU's don't need High Back seats as they go under 100 mph.
Ripping out the seats in 158's would have meant new Richmond seats which are very uncomfortable. Richmond seats are reasonably high backed. FGW basically didn't want to mess with the DMU's seating layout as they thought, wrightly, that it worked.
The new HST seating layout has given more seats which is brilliant.

The point Barry Doe was making in "Rail" was that what is "brilliant for commuters is not necessarily "brilliant" for long distance rail users which some of the posts on this thread have born out,there is more to rail travel than just legroom and plugging in a laptop on a long rail journey to say Cornwall.But in a franchise that is now dominated by the commuter/short/medium distance market FGW have inevitably had to compromise the long haul market by adopting the policy of one size fits all.Clearly we are polls apart on this one.
  Still thats life nothing is perfect.

I agree there is more to long distance travel than just a bit of leg room. One of the biggest pleasures of those sort of journeys is being able to chat with fellow passengers, not just the bloke you happen to sit next to. High density seating for the commuter journey may be ok, but leaves those who are going from say Wiltshire to deepest Cornwall feeling just a tad isolated for the whole of the journey.

Not much chance for socialising if all you have for company is a laptop and the bloke you are sat next to^s only topic of conversation is HST refurbishments.  ::)

One of the bigger differences between long distance travel is not only about a need for a little more space (hence 2+2 rather than 2+3 seating) you also need space for luggage.

On the original Mk 3s there was useful space between the seats that were back to back. Sometimes this contained waste bins other spaces for cases. The new coaches loose this space with the airline seating.

While some issues are a matter of personal preference, FGW seem incapable of understanding the differences between long distance & short distance / commuter needs.

That is why the refurb may suit some but looses out for others.

Exactly I posted a thread earlier as to why HSTs were not suitable commuter trains, excessive dwell times caused by too few doors. One point also that I didn't mention is that 23 m long coaches are probably too long for commuter work, with their bad passenger/door ratio. A five 20 m car articulated train is not much longer than a 4 car 23 m set. It has a lower passenger/door ratio.

Therefore, any refurb to make them into "better" commuter trains won't work as this thread proves and of course spoils them for long distance passengers.

The root cause of the problem is the failure of DafT to electrify the GWML. This solves the rolling stock problem in one hit. Modern EMUS like the Desiros for commuter/intermediate  work and Class 93s and Mark 5 for mainline. The class 93s could be replaced by diesels at Plymouth and Swansea. Although as above the continental articulated varity for the Desiros. Like the ones on Hanover S bahn you can see right down the length of unit as they have low seats and wide gangways between cars.

Therefore, the diesel IEP is dead as is the dual mode.

Although Marks 3 are one of the best coaches to crash in, high speed derailments of Euriostar and TGV sets have shown the added value of articulation in keeping the train upright and preventing jack knifing.

Buckeye couplings prevent trains tipping over as they have proved in many crashes, OK, not to the extent of an articulated train, however, with an articulated train your are nearly doubling the axle weight per coach, which would affect the route availiability. As for changing loco's at Plymouth, thats about 10 minutes at least wasted on each journey!
What people are forgetting here is that HST's are a commuter train, but a long distance commuter train, thats what they were built for, thats what they do well, at the end of the day Bristol-Padd is a commuter route, would you rather have Turbo's doing those service's just because they've got more door's?

You have put your finger on one of the problems. The HSTs were designed as an inter city train but now with the changes to travel patterns more and more stops have been added especially on routes like London to Bristol. This has turned their current use into not ideal commuter shuttles.

This is why the two fleets should have been much more different. The long distance versions should have kept with an internal layout for that purpose, comfort ambiance and also luggage storage.

One of the troubles is that they do not appear to be able to diagram the units to their two respective tasks they appear to be used interchangeably. Whether this will change when all the units including the extra one are complete only time will tell.

They are certainly not fit for long distance travel after their refurbishment.

It will be interesting to see what decisions are made for the GWML if the diesel IEP is binned as GW was going to be the main user.

Vacman

Loco change 3 minutes top given autocoupler and suitable layout.

After all the XC 47s used to run round at Reading in 5 minutes and that was screw couplings, ETH  and airpipes. Also Cambridge were pretty slick with the Kings Lynns before the wires went up. 

We seem to have forgotten how to run a railway. Loco changes are not a problem if it means that you can run most of the journey under electric power and then change locos for the last bit until you can get the wires up along that stretch as well.

However, as FarWest says HSTs were built as Intercity trains,
I can remember when an afternoon trian from Bristol did the 70 miles 72 chains  from Bath to Reading in around  40 minutes in a non stop dash at an average of around 105mph. That's what they were built for, not 18 mile sprints on the Oxfords.

The problem is that they've become de-faco commuter trains because they were too succesful in shortening journey times so that longer distant daily  commutes became possible. Plus we haven't electrified and produced suitable 125 commuter units. 125 mph with suitable acceleration is not very efficient using diesel.

Although only 90 mph something like the original Clactons 309 units fit for 125mph. You could watch the speedo in the intermediate cabs as you left a station and be doing 60mph at the platform end.

I would also like to add that one area where I really think the refurbishment has been a failure is in the quiet carriages (or the "argument carriage" as my friend calls them).

Before we had proper signs (using red and black so they were noticeable) on every seat back as well as the door and windows.

Now I find that because the no mobiles signage is no longer on the seat backs that due to the new high back seats there are several seats from which it is not possible to see the quiet carriage signs when seated.  So a lot of people simply don't realise they are sitting in the quiet carriage which was not a problem before.

Also, the fact that the new signs on the doors and windows are carriage colour schemed rather than red & black warning sign-esque is a poor decision as it makes them unnoticeable again defeating the point of informing people that it is the quiet carriage.

Boppy.

They were built for Cardiff/Bristol - Padd services (in FGW territory) which is a commuter corridor, no they weren't built for the start/stop work which I did actually put in my first post, "commuter" route doesn't just mean suburban services!

New antimocassers (sorry, don't know how the hell to spell that word) are now being added to the quiet coach with "quiet coach" and some other literature on them. As for the high backed seats has it not yet sunk in that these are now a REQUIREMENT!!!!

It's 'antimacassars'. Alternatively 'head rest covers'.

If anyone cares, the word is derived from macassar oil, an imported hair tonic from Sulawesi...

I care: I simply will not leave the house unless my valet has applied it, as directed on the bottle.

 ::) ;D

Anyone who travelled on the down "Golden Hind" tonight will have seen why it has been ESSENTIAL to add far more seats into HST's, the train was full and standing from Padd to Liskeard, had there been any less seats then people would probably have been left behind!

Or we could of course run a bank holiday relief with a class 50 and load 13..... haha, well......

FGW are damned either way.  Some will be happy, some will not...  I have only worked for FGW for a short time but general opinion I find is very positive for the refurb.

Or use the 15:05 Paddington-Penzance any friday, full and standing London-Plymouth. That nearly leaves behind now, hate what it would be like as a un refur train.

1505 is a killer! Likewise the 1803 and presumably the 1903.

I borrowed an antimacassar from the Quiet Coach today.
Says:









Wil try and get a pic.

Oh and the sticker on the vestibule door say Welcome to the Queit Carriage on as well as First Great Western now.

The 1903 was 90 late, due into Penzance at 0205!!!

The problem is probably those who do 90 minutes plus and those who do local commutes.......

For your Swindon - London busy routes etc - yes, it probably makes a difference

I would not do WOS to RDG/PAD if I could not get a table.  (The return journey is the reason I pay exhorbitant first fees - in the morning I can alway guarantee one - not so on the return)

I REALLY do think there should be two seperate HST fleets....

High density
Bristol-PAD
OXF-PAD
Maybe Wales -PAD


Or shock, horror, go back to express

e.g the cathedrals express being first stop oxford (which it was when I started commuting in 2004) - run a low density set and make the reading commuters get on a high density bristol/oxford service

Similar make the penzance train be first stop ( Swindon/Taunton? - somewhere - my geography on that line is not great)

So then you have high density sets doing what they are designed for and table sets doing longer distances

The problem is, routes that need tables also need the extra seats!

No one needs a table, people just like to have them.


A Penzance express would be useless as it would be empty.
It would need to call.
Penzance-St Erth(u)-Camborne(u)-Redruth(u)-Truro(u)-St Austell(u)-Par(u)-Bodmin Parkway(u)-Liskeard(u)-Exeter St Davids(st)-Reading(s)-London Paddington

(u)=Pick up Only
(s)=Set Down Only
(st)=Stop for crew change only

And it would be quite un profitable as lots of profit comes from the day passengers in Cornwall.

Would it not be possible to make FGW HST sets 2+9 by adding an extra coach as GNER did with their HSTs,yes I know there are financial and operation issues to think of but that did not stop GNER pursueing this option to cater for growth.

It would be a good idea but there aren't any spare coaches, we would have to split some of pour existing ones which I don;t see happening.

Ask a family with 2 young children on a long journey whether they need a table.

2+9 won't work as there are no coaches left (unless the 40 allocated for NXEC are now available) and I believe depots would need extending etc, so pretty expensive.

The problem is that the service (especially the South Wales and Bristol lines) are trying to cater for two different markets with one design of train (notwithstanding the HD,LD versions, which aren't in reality much different). Commuters travelling for up to an hour, and long distance traffic where something a little more than "just a seat" is required.  Yes the long distance services have their peak moments too, especially on a friday, but maybe other solutions are better for that problem.

John R, me, my Mum, my Dad, my Brother and my Sister don't need a table on a journey to London, no one does, people would like one but they don't need one.

As I tend to have to get up early to catch trains into London I like to have coffee and bacon roll whilst reading the newspaper. Try that in an airline style saeat - thinking about it there's probably a bit more room on BA or Easyjet.

It's attitudes like this that have made FGW such a contaminated brand.

Surely, FGW should look to provide the best possible customer experience.

And part of that experience for families and friends travelling long distances is the social interaction that tables clearly provide, and airline (or should I say 'bus') configurations fail to deliver.

FGW HST's have the most legroom of any train in the UK I think and also more than most short distance airlines.



I find the HST's to give a perfect experience, I use the train reguarly with my family, every couple of weeks for leisure purporses because it is so cheap and they all like the HST's. And I can alway get a table on a journey on a HST in Cornwall and I mean always.

FGW HST's have the most legroom of any train in the UK I think and also more than most short distance airlines.
[/quote]

If that is true then how do you put in more seats that an unrefurb unit and increase legroom?

The answer is either 1) you take away storage areas for luggage or 2) have Dr Who on the design team

Seats are thinner and less reclined, increasing space.

Do you agree I am right?

Well no, The current HST is not ideal for long distance, an extra carriage with more tables would be more suitable and perhaps the family carriage could have all tabled seating.


As for that, most of the trains drop off many people in Plymouth for the day, so you would have to put Plymouth into that!! Don't really see the need to stop at par either, unless you can connect from Newquay. Set down only at Reading is a good idea though.

I meant about legroom, obviously the layout could be better but the legroom is the best in the country.

The stop at Par is for Newquay servics.
Well that was the point Mookiemoo was trying to make, they are meant to be long distance and shouldn't be local trains. That is what my timetable is and I did say that they carried lots of people for locla journeys and that it would lose lots of money.

ah, but I bet more people travel to London from Plymouth that Liskeard, so to have a potentially un full HST sailing through at 25mph would be a joke!

But Mookiemoo was saying about a Penzance express.
Plymouth gets enough HST's anyway, not stopping one wouldn't do anything.

Only 1 an hour, a small town called Weymouth gets 2 per hour to London.

A city like Plymouth would benefit from an additional and likely to be fast service to London. There are likely to be business travellers aswell. First Class empties after leaving Plymouth and those left are likely to be a cheapo fares, like most of the rest of the train! West of Plymouth is only really good as a leisure market due to the poor transport of the area. Plymouth is just at the edge of the acceptable area (hence why its got a fairly unstable economy)

There is no need for high density sets on the Cotswold line (except Ox-London at peak)!

But here is a solution to all problems:

*Bring back 8 180s to displace 8 HSTs.

*Break up the HSTs and add a 9th coach to each train.

*Add back tables

*Put 180s on Cotswold Line

More seats, more tables, and a faster service for the Cotswold Line! ;D

Yes seats are thinner & more upright ( = more uncomfortable for many)

The basic rule = length of compartment / number of rows = passenger space ( = cushion length + seat width + legroom).

On the unrefurb coaches you lost legroom when seats were back to back, however this space was very useful for either luggage storage or for waste bins. Additionally sitting face to face at a table you can interlock legs with the person opposite rather than sit toe to toe which gives extra overlapping legroom. There is precious little storage room now so more cases on seats.

At the end of the day, I don't know exactly the measurements but more people = less space per person seems a logical deduction.

I only need bread and water to live, but I'd quite like a bit more. Same with the passenger environment on the train. You're right in one sense, but as a later contributor says, the social interaction is important, indeed necessary, to keep young children occupied. (I'm assuming that unless you are a very young contributor, your parents and siblings probably don't have the same challenges that young children do in terms of occupying them on a long journey, so I don' t see the relevance re my comment about a family with young children.)

The fact is that FGW have gone further than any other Inter-City operator in terms of removing tables, and in doing so have made a significantly negative impact on the travelling experience of many of its customers.   

I would say my younger sister and younger brother are very hard to entertain.
See this thread for one of your comments: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=925.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=925.0)

Surely the best possible customer experience is to have more passengers seated? As for Penzance expresses, i'm all for it, they should call Penzance, Truro, St Austell, Liskeard, Plymouth, Exeter St Davids, Reading and Padd every hour, with an hourly Penzance-Plymouth calling Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Saltash and Plymouth, and an hourly shuttle from Liskeard to Plymouth calling all stations.

Depends on the passenger and where they get on.

The passenger that got on at say, WOS or EVE/MIM on a hereford train used to be guaranteed a table - now they may get an airline seat.  Getting a seat was never an issue - its the quality of the seat.  Note: the person doing 50 minutes oxford to Pad or 30 minutes RDG to PAD is not as concerned over seat quality as those doing longer journeys.  All they want is to sit.

It is no consolation to them that people getting on at didcot or reading can now sit ...... they do not care - note if the people standing pay for first chances are half of them will be able to sit - tough if they choose not to.

Sitting at an airline seat for longer than an hour is no fund - mainly because people who regularly do that rely on the travelling time to be productive - airline seats allow reading, contemplating your navel, or talking to the person next to you - precious little else.

FG have forgotten that a not insignificant % of their travellers are not local ciommuters but longer distance commuters.

I know of several people who get a standard season but now upgrade on return because they cant get a decent seat out of PAD anymore.  At the moment FGW make some money from the upgrades - but if it gets much more expensive - they will transfer to chiltern or Virgin since on chiltern there is no difference and on virgin, standard has more tables!

Maybe the answer is to run MORE local services.

More PAD-OXF or RDG-OXF and run PAD-Exeter then have Exeter/penzance with some peak through expresses

NOTE:

Whilst I am againt the WOS-OXF/OXF-PAD shuttle idea on the cotswolds line - that is because the journey is 2 hours (on a sensible timetable)

PAD-Penzance is 4+ hours - breaking the journey is not inconceivable

180s should come back - for the PAD-OXF/PAD-WOS(off peak) routes (an possibly for the other end of the penzance line (I'm just summising here - never been there ever by train or road))

HST should be HEAVY commuter routes - PAD/OXF peak/ Bristol-PAD
and full length

PAD - HRF
PAD-Penzanze
PAD-SWansea

And they should be fully tabled - they should not stop at reading (which is where most of the over crowding comes in)

The cornwall issue should be solved by local trains running from Exeter

I dont work on the railways so maybe there is stuff I dont know but as a seasoned commuter there is nothign worse than sitting at a sation waiting for departure or stopping at a station that only ever has 1/2 passengers getting on or off

And to this I would ask - what does a 14 year old know about real life

Do you have to do a working day and travel several hours to do it - the alternative being move your family and make them redundent

Dont comment on what you cannot understand

Hey - this is starting to get a bit personal - please calm it.  By definition, our younger members won't have the same number of years under their belt as I do, but they have the energy and enthusiasm that have been replaced by a slowing down, a tiredness and a cynicism.   These are dangerous generalities - not to be generally applied as the gaining of experience is not uniform or linear, and there are a few of us who perhaps don't get quite the same amount of negatives as we get older.    Ageism is rightly banned at the workplace; on here, personal attacks based on someone's age are also banned.

Back(ish) on subject? I know people who have had to give up their jobs because the December 2006 timetable changes (cuts) made it impossible / impractical for them to continue to commute as they did, and indeed I changed my own business in a major way due to those cuts.  That's not "just" a table being removed - it's a complete train and, frankly, it's on a different scale.  You'll see that I've not been active in this thread concerning the refurbs - as far as I'm concerned, the absence of presence of a train at a time when it's useable, reasonably on time and not cancelled too often, is more critical than whether I get a table (which I do really like!)

There were no tables at all in the trains I used to use to commute to school, and indeed in those days there were six seats a side in what we knew as a "single", and we survived perfectly well. On some journeys, I changed onto an express for part of the way and they had First Class which we never used - and in there there was / is certainly an argument for providing a higher standard of service for passenger's convenience at the (usually) higher price.  But this isn't a discussion that has a right or wrong answer - I applaud train companies who provide stock / trains beyond the minimum needed startdard in order to encourage more customers.

Well, I don't think I have commented on what I can't understand.

I am saying that my siblings get very easily bored and become hard to entertain even on the shortest of journeys. I know this through experience.

Yes, I do have to go to school and I have to travel for 30 minutes to get there by a First Bus. OK, it is not 9-5 working day but it is 5 days a week when I am working.

And I actually think I have commented on something which you disagree with. Airline seats are not useless for more than half an hour, I can sit with my family with them all the way to London quite comfortable and we don't really mind. A table would be nice but Airline seats are just fine.

I think I know quite alot about 'real life' actually, it is not all easy at school we do 5 hourly lessons a day, and then spend many hours doing coursework at home, so we can do what we want in 'real life'.

May I ask what is 'real life'? And how do you know about me and my personal life? As you don't know about my personal life I would please ask you refrain from commenting on it.

<entirely jokey comment>

Real life is where you commute three hours each way first class each day on a train after driving from your home in a pick up truck. You are a fan of some products, and enjoy arguing on forums.

</entirely jokey comment>

*runs*

To be honest, I'm pleased that in September although I will be starting to commute on the trains - I won't have to suffer FGW HSTs in standard. Can't stand 'em. Although I don't particularly like 444s either....

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o Weymouth isn't that small!!!

That additional train from the new timetable serves the vast area of Portland and Dorchester as well!

444's are awful. HST's are much more comfortable and they lack Celia.  :D

So, as your generalisation is key - Why not ban the member?

Yes, please don't! Your not Conner's mum are you? If you are, then you understand, if not, then stop trying to act like her by telling our youngest member what he can and can't understand!

Yeah, I'll, err, just jump into first class.... seating is much nicer in there. ;)

Oh, and about lacking Celia, from what I've heard........ well.....  :-X :-X :-X

"Welcome on board this First Great Western service to London Paddington. This train will be calling at St. Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Menheniot, St Germans, Saltash, Plymouth, Ivybridge, Totnes, *EXTREMELY LONG PAUSE* Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Castle Cary, Westbury, Swindon, Reading and London Paddington."

"Blah blah blah safety information blah blah blah..." *train stops at St Erth* "blah blah blah continuation of safety information" *train departs from St Erth* "The next stop is St Erth."  ;D

Because, Jim, responses need to be proportional and reasonable - and at the end of the day (or week, or month) we want a thriving forum and not one where we've disenfranchised a large proportion of the people who want to be here and who show us a whole rainbow of different views.

You send someone to prison for murder - not for throwing a glass of water over someone (as Heather Mills is no doubt very happy about!)

 :D :D :D

But to be fair, Tom makes an excellent point, your stereotype of 'real life' is far from the truth and what is real life anyway? Every single person has a different conception of real life so before you start accusing members of not knowing what they are talking about, think about what you are on about? If real life was to sit and moan about how you are victimised and harrassed by standard class and train staff whilst on your travels to work, they god help us all!

But surley the 'older' members "Should know better"?

Or forgetting to pay child benefit or forgetting to pay your TV licence.... or just stealing something. And they wonder why the prisons are full!?!

The number of posts this morning are getting like the 'rover krew'!

I was under the impresion that was more "Paying the BBC" !!

Real life is different for everyone, so let everyone get on with theirs, it's not Moikie (or anyones!) place to say what someone elses real life is or isn't, but then again, I forgot she thinks she knows everything about everyone.

Nah, you pay the TV licence people who just happen to give it all to the Beeb.... they may give some to Channel 4 soon!

I live a real life - dunno whether it's real or not. Could just be one massive dream... I could be a massive rockstar and I've just got this awfully long dream that has lasted 16 years so far ... hmm, me as a rockstar? I MUST be dreaming.... or maybe not - got the money part of it!!  ;D ;D ;D

Perhaps we should go back on topic soon ;)

Topic? What is this topic you speak of?  ;) Talking about forum members being rockstars is far more interesting than talking about train refurbishments!!

I'd say as Jim said 'soon' we've got a few posts leeway to gibber  :)

Goodo. ;)

In other news, I shall be sampling Eurostar first class in early July and will be comparing it with FGW first class. :) (think the E* will be a winner due to the ... FREE FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!.)

*wakes up*

Damn, not a rockstar.

But is the state of the Eurostar as good as the FGW refurbishment?

*swiftly back to topic*

I would say not - but 373s are a fair bit newer but have 80s based interiors. From my bash on a North of England set many years ago now (last departure ever on a Eurostar from Kings Cross) I thought the seats were very comfy - nothing on par with 442s but far far better than the current FGW effort in standard.

EDIT: Now for the off topic bit ... I think I am gonna start a pop career. Then go the way of Britney Spears / Amy Winehouse. Drugs, woo!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

For those who do not understand my personality, I am quite clearly joking about the drugs. But am very serious about pop career. I like mad ideas. :)

Were there enough tables to doss on? Also, are there enough First Class seats for passengers to have a table to themselves I wondeR?

Dunno about first class yet - shockingly I travelled in standard.

I only did London to Stevenage, it was a heavily reserved service though (1730 ish off the Cross) and I just found an airline. Decent table though.

Don't be so sure, I'm bidding for the HST contract when it comes up! :)

As long as its not Nagging Northern Nora!

This topic seems to have wandered all over the place but the one thing that stands out is what a fabulous concept the HST was in the first place.

The problem it has been too sucessful what started out as an IC train is now trying to be a medium distance semi fast (London - Bristol) and a commuter train (London - Oxford) plus a local train in Cornwall.

Don't foget that London Bristol was an IC route in 1976 it's the HST that's made it a commuter route.

So, however, they are configured refurb they can't do all three jobs satisfactorily.

IC needs more tables and lugggage/bike space. DB ICs have 30 researvable bike spaces in teh DVT. It's the crash zone for 220Kph running.

Medium distance probably needs  some tables (a la 166?) but reservable, plus some luggage/bike

Commuter/local don't need tables. but maybe a bike coach al la Southern MLV.

So we are stuck with a generally unsatisfactory refurb trying to make what was an excellent IC train into a commuter train.

As I've said previously the only sensible way out of this dilemma is electrification.

Locos 93s and  Mark 5s with 6X diesel for non electrified part of service. IC services limited stops.

Modern EMUS medium density for semi fasts under the wires all the way. Possibly splitable.

12 coach HD commuter EMUS. 3*4 coach units. Plus MLV?

Modern local DMUs.

Electrification would of course be fab except it was noted on another blog there might be clearance issues through the Severn tunnel. There again, I suppose those of us who use (or, if it were reliable, would love to use) the Hereford/Worcester services would get left out.

On the comment about bringing back the Adelantes (properly maintained), how's about running the Hereford early morning and evening services with one Adelante unit between Hereford and Worcester, doubling up from Worcester. The off peak Hereford and Worcester services could be double between Oxford and Paddington.

Oh, I forgot, the Adelante seats aren't great and the overhead racks don't take any sort of decent sized briefcase.

 

Electrification of the GWML won't happen unless a new railway is built across the Severn (over the proposed barrage).

This is because having 2 tph not electric makes the task not value for money.

But I expect the barrage will get the "M4 Toll." ::)

And I very much doubt the wires would be extended beyond Oxford....

Or Temple Meads....

Or Plymouth.....

And I don't care what people say about "loco changes only take a minute." I may have never witnessed/experienced a loco change, but as far as I am concerned, they would cause delays/ unnecessary long journey times.

-----------

Why did not FGW simply switch a First Class carriage to standard in the refurb? That  would have easily got the extra 30 seats (and more) without ripping out tables.

At the risk of being flamed.....

Because during the peaks that would leave first class passengers standing at least until Reading if not oxford/swindon

FGW should do away with Leisure advance first class, which (snob mode now) have ruined first class, ^30 from Plymouth to Padd first class? should never be i'm afraid, i'm all for leisure advance in standard class, that way, only have first class open, Saver and Seasons and THEN do away with a first class coach to replace with a standard.
Ever since these cheap first class fares came in the "aura" of first class has gone, with all sorts of riff raff up there with screaming kids, phones blaring out and going up to the buffet saying "how much free stuff can I get with this ticket" and filling their bags up to take home, it sounds snobby of me but it needs to be seen to be believed. First class should be vastly over priced so that it retains that it is just an area for people who want to pay that extra to travel in peace and quite and not worry about their belongings being nicked, or some drunken tramp sleeping on the floor!

You dont  know how important that is when you regularly do long journeys on your own

The though of having to pack up all belongings and shut down lappy due to needing a trip to the loo is more than just slightly annoying

When I started on the railway all those years ago  ;), a standard class passenger wouldn't dream of walking into first class as it was a "no go" zone to non first class ticket holders, now days TM's spend half their time on a losing battle to try and evict people from FC who are saying things like "there's no free tables in standard so we're staying in First", errrrrm no your flippin not, you want first class you pay for it, the way it is in Devon and Cornwall the FC might aswell be declassified, all the freeloaders who are travelling from say Penzance to Lostwithiel seem to think that just because Lostwithiel has a short platform and only coach G and H are on the platform that it gives them the right to sit in coach G or H for the entire journey! I do sympathise with people like mookiemoo who pay over the odds for first class tickets and then some chav thinks they can also use the same accomodation just because of short platforms, or they're on some super duper advance first class ^1.99 special. its all WRONG!

What annoys me is when you point out to the TM that there is an interloper and they do nothing about it.

Couple of weeks ago (I didnt post at the time for risk of being told to shut up) I was the only passenger in F until some woman got on with her toddler.  You could tell by what she was saying she was not a first class passenger.

I would not have minded - them sitting on the next set of seats made no odds to me - until I had to listen to the constant "ooh look - a cow" - "please stop standing on the seat" - " Whats that hammer for - mummy thinks its to break the glass" and other utterings of mummy amusing child.

I asked the TM would he please do a ticket check as I didnt want to listen to that for the next hour.  Did he - did he heck as like.  By the time I got to hereford (I was going all the way that night) I was close to infanticide.

My comment on the Cornwall service was an theoretical example - I did confess to not knowing the geography

The fact is .... the cotswalds line ran better when it was first stop oxford - didnt get tied into the reading platform delays and ran more to time than it did agter 2006

I am off to bed as it is 00:50 and I have tio be at WOS for the 05:45 which means being up at 04:45

The scheme to build a 10-mile tidal barrage across the Severn Estuary takes a step forward today with the appointment of the company that will manage the environmental study (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=20556303&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

Vacman, you will be pleased to know that I have often done Paignton-Bristol return for less than ^5 in First Class when the Daily Fail were running their promo  :D

Pleased to say i caused no problem and I felt like a God with a WHOLE table  ;)

Try the Night Train.
Perfect if you need to get to Penzance fairly early.
Re upholstered First Class seating, 2+1, all at Tables, it is not very busy, and you can use Standard Day Returns.

Didn't know the Night Riviera ran via Paignton?!  ;D

Or Cheap Day on Saturday AM. Not that I plan to come down to Cornwall at 0400 AM anyhow  :P

;D
It does run a lot of places though.
Went a long way round on Sunday night.
London-Reading-Swindon-Westbury-Castle Cary-Yeovil Pen Mill-Yeovil Junction-Exeter Central-Exeter St Davids-Penzance


Good, if you are in Cornwall though.
As for CDR's. I used a Cornish Ranger on it yesterday.

here is one way adelante beats refurb GST- inner arms - the one on the window side - how come they are hinged and lift up on an adelante but are fixed on a GST refurb

Different type of seat, adalantes have seats which are wholly floor mounted whilst HST refurb are Floor and side wall mounted the fixed arm is part of the side wall fitting

BAD design

(tongue in cheek mode one - before I get flamed)

I now have to carry two pillows - one for my head against the window and one to protect my cocyx from the fixed arm when I make a two seat into a bed!

(tongue in cheek mode off)

Seriously though - my lappy had no charge tonight so I was comfortably stretched out reading a book tonight on an adelante - a HST would need some sort of pillow or roll up protection

Nope!

I investigated my seat this morning.  The side wall fitting is actually on the squab - there is no part of the arm attached to the side wall hence no reason it couldnt be hinged

is that a violin I hear  ;D

*Begins to play the worlds smallest Violin*

Don't leave it on the train :D

:P

A memorandum has been issued to fleet staff at the depots instructing them to send out empty trains about to head into service with 'half-lighting' selected as standard from now onwards. The only time you should see full lighting on is if a TM has subsequently changed the setting, or there is a fault with the lighting that means 'half-lighting' cannot be selected - this isn't uncommon, but usually affects only one vehicle at a time and not the whole train.

In a recent survey on this site I voted for unrefurbished Mark 3s or Mark 2s as the best (and got plaudits from one user for voting for Mark 2s). Let's be brutal, refurb'ed Mark 3s are c**p. The old trad layouts of 4 seats around table was fantastic and made rail travel a joy.

Been to London from Cheltenham this week on Wednedsay and today with colleagues. Only managed a table this morning on 0727 ex Cheltenham and managed a sensible working meeting on the way.

it must pointed out however that this is a energy saving exercise, not so that the like's of Steve44 is able to see out of the window!

Darn it!!!!

I've been suffering Bad Head aches and sore Eyes after traveling in Brightly lit HST coaches, the Lighting level can be painfully high for those with Sensitive Eyes.

I was looking at Sueing!!!!!

Half lighting, eh? I was looking at the ceiling panels only last week wondering if the refurb meant the lights alternated with ordinary panels in some weirdo design feature. Excuse my ignorance.

Any news about the external displays?

i cant comment on fgw first class

I didnt relaise they had planned for these to be honest!!  Would be good though!!

No, I hadn't heard anything about those either. (Free) Wireless would be good though! Perhaps when EC56 comes to FGW land they might keep Wireless in it.

No they are not going to happen.  Deemed too expensive with the limited time left until replaced by the IEP  ;D 

I dont think they are relly needed anyway..... does the average passenger read them? 

Shame there re no plans for free wireless though.