Great Western Coffee Shop

Did I dream it, or did I hear somewhere on the radio today, that tickets are soon to be simplified? There will only be 'Advanced', 'Anytime', and 'Off peak'. Or did I imagine such a simple principle? Any one else know? ???

I have heard something like this.

I think that they are changing the names.

See this BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7364127.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7364127.stm)

I think those pacers have been knocking the sence out of you  ;)

Although on a serious note, I'm yet to be convinced as to the fare changes, as many loopholes and cheaper fares are likely to change.

None of the articles actually explain what they're going to be, lol.

Advance - all current advance purchase singles only. Operators who provide Apex Returns, etc, will be converting to advance purchase singles.
Anytime Single - Standard Open/Day Single
Anytime Day Return - Standard Day Return
Anytime Return - Standard Open Return
Off-Peak Single - Cheap Day Single / Saver Single
Off-Peak Day Return - Cheap Day Return
Off-Peak Return - Saver Return
Super Off-Peak Single - Super Saver Single, other walk on cheap single tickets.
Super Off-Peak Return - Super Saver Return, other walk on cheap return tickets that are valid for longer than a day.
Super Off-Peak Day Return - Super Off Peak Return (as seen on SWT), Just 15, etc.

Now here's the important bit: For most fares, this is simply a rename and any normal fare rises that occur at the May fares change will still take place. There should generally be NO fares changes in September.

Some of those new names are a wee bit clumsy: "Super Off-Peak Day Return!"

It does seem extremely long but it explains exactly what the ticket is ;)

The travelcard boltons to fares is good - they basically don't have to change as they're already pretty simple to understand.

Peak Day Travelcards will change to Anytime Day Travelcard, Off Peak Day Travelcard will remain unchanged, Super Off Peak Day Travelcard likewise.

Ummmm, did I not post this about month ago??

Yep. ;D

The BBC are slooooooooooooooow.

And I did it in February :)

But everyone just nicked it out of Newsrail E.... ;)

Yep, easiest way  ;D

Sorry vacman, i only heard it today.I'm not important you know, as I only sell tickets every day of my working life, so i wouldn't expect to get this info from my employer. I heard it on the radio........or dreamt it. Who knows?? ;D

If you sell tickets you should have access to Newsrail Express, and therefore should be reading it surely?!

I'm general public when it comes to this sort of stuff and it took me ages to get hold of copies - but I read it!!

Well, for once I cant remember whether this has been mentioned before on the forum, or indeed whether I dreamt it had, but there is a row developing over a decision by train companies to stop giving refunds for tickets bought in advance and to double the fee for changes to journey times (link below.)
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/04/rail_fares_shakeup_will_ditch.html#more

It was reffered to in the BBC article.

Sore point about Newsrail express.........

Further BBC article link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7365871.stm

Heh heh.

They're hiding it behind that FRPP thing now so can't read it!  :(

why make the distinction between retunrs and day returns?  What is teh justification for this?  Is it a revenue protection issue?

Because a return and a day return are very different beasts. You could be paying in excess of ^50 more for a "return" as opposed to "day return"!

But is doesn't cost the railway anymore to transport you on a period return versus a day return.  I can understand why travelling in the peak is more expensive but why make travelling a day later (at the same time of day) more expensive.    Will the distinction between day rtns and period returns remain in the new system? If so then it isn't really a simplification just a rebanding exercise. 

The problem I have with day returns is that for that for short jounreys they are the only tickets available (even on short jounreys to certain airports where a good number of passengers must be flying off somewhere and returning a few days later).  A day return may be less expensive than a saver or open return but if you can't travel out and back the same day two singles are likely to cost more than the saver. 

My comment about revevene protection is based on teh fact that day returns are less likely to abused than period returns by being resused (and perhaps reuse is easier on shorter journeys cos those tickets are less likely to b clipped)

There will still be a distinction in order to make it clear what the return duration is on the ticket - however you generally won't be able to get period returns on routes where a day return is available now. (Flows that will are mid-distance flows, 50 to 150 miles).

So the "simplification" actually makes things more confusing, because the complexity over whether period retunrs are available is hidden from the public by using the same name for two types of walk on returns!

Indeed. I don't think they've gone about this correctly really, as they haven't advertised that there will be sub levels of each fare called Day Returns really...

Does anyone know why period returns are not available on shorter journeys? Before I was season ticketed, staying overnight at a friend's house by train cost twice as much as going to see them during the day as two singles had to be bought.

I had become accustomed to Network Away Break tickets which were great for this type of thing although they were more expensive than a day return.

I don't see the logic in it. Am I missing something?  ???

To prevent repeated usage of such tickets where it is unlikely you will get a ticket check.

So just in case a few people might cheat, everybody has to pay more

Another case of guilty until proven innocent

I cant think of another area where people ASSUME you will cheat

So Mookie, do you suggest we put barriers everywhere and hence (according to your theory) victimise and massivly inconvenience everyone?

Can't win ;)

Sports?

They don't drug test everyone for the hell of it...

As I pointed out - barriers dont work anyway - they just prove you have a valid ticket to get on and off the platform.  Without a ticket check you could easily get a reading to readign west to get on a train and if they had barriers at worcester get a pershore to worcester  ticket at the other end.

I don't feel particularly victimised or inconvenienced when I go through the barrier at Temple Meads in the morning. Even if I have to wait 30 seconds because 2 train loads have passengers have arrived at once. Barriers are a highly effective revenue protection tool, and if someone buys a ticket from Reading to Reading West and are then challenged then they are clearly fare-dodging, and deserve what they get.

Yes, but with HSTs and SDO, they are unlikely to be caught!

Mookiemoo, can I suggest a career change to head of revenue protection, i'm sure the industry experts would love to hear your radical plan to change things  :D

Nor DMUs. Family went from Nailsea to Weston on Sunday. Outward journey was very lightly loaded service. No attempt on either journey to check our tickets. Wasn't sure whether Groupsave was cheapest ticket so didn't buy at ticket machine. So if I hadn't gone to ticket office on arrival at Weston would have travelled for free. (Ticket office was closed by the time we returned.)

    

It is not a plan to change things as you well know - I'm merely pointing out that barriers, if one applies logic and forethought, do not actually solve the problem.

I think the evidence is that they increase revenue significantly. So they minimise (not eliminate) a) faredodgers, b) passengers expecting and willing to pay who when faced with no barrier walk straight through.

Nothing could ever SOLVE the problem because society has changed, but barriers are VERY effective as the average faredodger is far to fu**ing thick to buy a ticket to the next station etc etc, barriers have PROVED to be the most effective form of revenue protection, if they weren't then TOC's wouldn't be justified in spending hundreds of millions installing them!

And whilst I personally do not like barriers for genuine reasons - the times my train has been sitting on the platform about to leave but for reasons beyond my control I have not got a ticket yet OR my ticket is SOMEWHERE in my bag but I cant find it in time etc etc etc and when your next train could be two hours away it is not good to have the sphincter police saying no go

However ...... I can vaguely accept this whilst suggesting that if they employ native speakers who have the innate ability to apply common sense and the intelligence to note if they see someone every day and just once they dont have their ticket in hand its probably ok (this actually happened at slough where they ended up recognising me and actually happens at REading because I take time to acknowledge their presence and say thank you and please)

Charging me more to come back tomorrow on the same train as I would today just because someone would use their return tice - sorry, if they have intelligence to work that out, they have the intelligence to buy a ticket to the next station

Actually what I think should happen is this - they treat everyone as if honest

BUT do random (but not rare) checks

If you are caught dodging then you are either (a) given a custodial sentence (b) have all your benefits stopped (c) at a minimum have a criminal record (d) thrown into the equivalent of the work house

Of course it is not going to happen but it doesnt mean to say it should not.

The problem is, if the fine is what it is, its worth chancing it

Make it so reprehensible the honest wont do it - and those that do are scum

You forgot the stocks and pillories.

Probably

But given the vitriol on here against people with no ticket ..........


Its a valid solution

Is there any evidence that this strategy works?  I can see why open returns, where both portions are valid for a month are open to abuse, but with a saver return, you could in theory use the return portion more than once but as you can only use the outbound portion on the issue date you would have to either make lots of one way journeys or divise a fairly complex scheme of ticket purchasing to cheat with the return portion.  I find it had to believe that this happens to a significant degree.  The logic also assumes that Intercity trains will have more and better ticket checks than locals.  This is not my experience of reality.  Of all the tickets I use, the ones that are least lickly to get stamped are the Bath-London open returns.  At over ^100 a ticket even an honest chap like me would be tempted to reuse them if I wasn't usually on expenses.

   

Consider this.

Two Saver Returns, both dated for the same direction, one from A to B, one from B to A.

Return portions valid allow a "2nd" trip within a 1 month. ;) And a third if it's not gripped, and a fourth.... and a fifth...

But since we've concluded that most fare dodgers are too thick to even work out getting a ticket to the next station to get through the barriers, they are surely going to too thick to work this out as well.

You'd be surprised.

I've seen a number of people trying this trick - successfully....

I have always thought that the continetal system of having open platforms but fining anyone who didn't stamp the date on their own ticket with the validating machines is better than our system.  It would greatly reduce the reuse of tickets but would reduce the need for expensive barriers and staff at stations.

It doesn't really work as well when you consider that with the UK system you can break your journey over a number of days on certain tickets.

Why are customer validated tickets any more of a problem for this than tcikets stamped with a date by the guard?

It depends whether you consider it to work on the principle of once validated, it's valid for the rest of the period of the duration on the ticket - but then you don't really gain on anything. Besides, guards may not walk through the train due to varying reasons (for instance, no equipment to do tickets, too lazy), etc.

Or buy a ticket from an obscure location that requires a change of trains hence explaining an already present 'grip'

No, the European system of "validating" tickets is absolutely useless!

People stand next to the machine, and if a guard gets on, they quickly stamp it!

And in my experience, a guard never gets on!

Ummmmm, we do have a similar system, it's called penalty fares! No valid ticket=^20+full fare from next station=deterrent (if they were ever enforced!!)

I was thinking of having the machiens on the platforms not on the trains so that you have to stamp before you get on

I would sacrifice the ability to split break my journey (it is only available on a few tickets anyway and not many people use it) for greater availability of period returns.  Effecient stamping of tickets with the date (not just a punched hole) by train staff or my passengers would detect all reuse (except travelling the same route twice in the same day)

Day returns I would still allow breaks of journey though. It was useful yesterday for me when I had a job interview in Yate and one at Bristol - I was able to get off at Bristol TM first with the same ticket.

Splitting the jounrey and resuming the same day (or perhaps the next day for very long trips where an overnight stay is reasonable) wouldn't be a problem under my scheme

Well Tm's/Guards should have proper Stamps which display every single bit of info possible, just if they were universal not just for the certain TM/Guard's. Local Guards have them more than HSS and Cross Country nearly always have them, if they were universal it would work.

All FGW staff that check tickets were issued with "Zifa" stampers which display the date, headcode and an individual number for each stamper, most staff decide not to use them but they are supposed to!

This is because they are complete rubbish!! That and its far easier to use a 'punch' as you can do a group of tickets at once while with the 'Stamp' you have to do each individual ticket. Have also witnessed while travelling on a XC service a lad wipe the stamp off with his jumper, no doubt so he could use the ticket again. Which is another problem with them, they wipe off and smudge, often leaving a purple smudge on other unused tickets in a customers ticket wallet leading to queries then when presented to the guard. So IMHO they are a waste of time...

Going to start asking Guards/tm's with them to stamp my Cornish Day Ranger, keep a record of where I went.

Stamping a day ranger / rover makes it technically invalid!!

Half of them do it without asking and I am never questioned.

This is only a problem when they are over inked

Zifa stampers were designed for "Aptis" tickets which were slightly papery, zifa stampers do bed in after a bit of use, the ink tends to be a bit stickier after about 200 stamps and stays on, As for stamping a ranger, it can be stamped once to show that the ticket has been used and does not invalidate it, if it hadn't been stamped then technicly the customer could say they hadn't used it and put in for a refund.

3 in 7 / 4 in 8 / 8 in 15 rovers are a far different kettle of fish though, vacman ;)

Mind you, SWT guards have never heard of rovers ...

Oh ye, I was referring to day rangers ;D

I once had a CDR on the most obscure route imaginable - can't remember what it was... required travelling on 4 trains. Just as a bit of fun I broke my journey on each one and travelled on 9 in the end. Every single one gripped it... I've got it somewhere - should really scan it.

In the end the RPIs at Bournemouth couldn't read it...  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

That makes sense.  The current tickets are rather shiny.  The printed ink rubs off them after a while so it is no suprise that the Zifa ink doesn't stick very well