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From The Mirror (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/girls-12-feared-missing-found-23766255) and covered in other outlets


I confess with lockdown, etc, I did a quick check that this really was a British story (it is) and that it's current.   Well - it's from Scotland ... and it happened on a Friday evening after school which - my understanding makes it very recent or from last year or even older.    Not sure what all the various rules are in Scotland but the story does leave me wondering if they were being followed and if they were, the story would do well to confirm the fact.

These days it does seem rather surprising that neither of the youngsters had a cellphone with which to call parents or the emergency services, especially if travelling alone.

Also, most trains, perhaps all trains these days have emergency egress facilities. The means of opening a door or breaking a window for emergency egress vary from one type of train to another, but are simple to use and well signed and should be readily understood and operable by 12 year olds.

Of course if the girls were lightly dressed and the weather bad, then remaining on the train might have been sensible, unless shelter or a public phone was known to be nearby.

And finally let us remember that although the girls had a fright, and the parents had a bigger fright, that no actual harm was done.

Having reluctantly read the newspaper article and waded through all the adverts and clickbait, it seems that each girl had a cellphone but that both had flat batteries. Very poor planning in that case.

The parent(s) might be (re-)considering whether they might have been a tad young to be out in the evening on their own.

At what age is it acceptable for someone to be left locked in a train overnight?

12 is too young, in answer to both. YVMV (your view may vary)

ORLY? BTAIM IMHO SMH TBH...

We do not know all the circumstances, but in my view it is in most circumstances acceptable for 12 year olds to travel by train.
Not sensible in known bad areas, or in the very late evening, but in most other circumstances it should be fine. A day out, with return in the EARLY evening is part of growing up.
A certain amount of pre planning is required, including the availability of a reliable cellphone.

No age is acceptable to be locked in a train, and an enquiry should be held as to how this happened.

A different age, but I travelled alone by train to school considerably before I was 12.  Including using various alternative routes on days the trains were up the shoot.  Thinking to my son and daughter, I don't think our location / life style was such that they travelled alone by bus or train at 12, though both made significant journeys when they were not all that much older - Monchengladbach to Bermonsey, and a return trip from Easterton to Coventry;  having talked through that latter journey (with a change at New Street) I was actually more concerned with what was in Coventry. But then it come down to the individual young person.

As you say a different age but I travelled across town from the age of eight.  After a while I took delight in taking different routes and even the train on occasion.  It was also the time when they experimented with the changing of the clocks and it was still dark at 8.30am.

It also gave me the confidence to explore my town by bus in the holidays and learned a lot about the local geography. 

I took the bus to school from age 11, and made the odd trip by train at age 11 or 12.
Most were very local, such as New Malden to Surbiton and New Malden to Kingston. But the odd much longer trip such as New Malden to South Kensington for the science museum, or to Sway in the new forest to visit a relative.

I feel that many parents these days, and society in general are over protective. Despite the odd very rare horrific attack on a child I don't think that the world today is actually any more dangerous than in the past.
And drifting only slightly off topic, let us remember that most attacks on children are by family friends and relatives and not by strangers in the street or on public transport.

All the responses so far indicate travelling around school/daytime. This doesn’t appear to have been the case here - I read that it was likely to have been evening time?

Possibly but in my experience it is also quite hard to persuade youngsters who have access to lifts in mum or dad’s taxi to use public transport.

I walked alone to and from school aged 7 onward. A mile in each direction.

So did I

Hits nail FOH (firmly on head)

I fully agree with this!

'Mum-of-five Bonnie said "It begs the question - how could this happen?'' '

Could it possibly be because Bonnie doesn't understand the concept of Parental Responsibility?

No - it's because those responsible for ensuring that the train was empty before locking it for the night failed to do so.

I have seen comments elsewhere that they did not have tickets and may have hidden when the train was checked.  How thorough should the search be when checking the train is empty?

I saw that asked as a question which may have drifted into a statement.  I suggest we discuss the facts as reported and our views on them - if that comment is part of a report, by all means quote it and give the reference, but we should be careful before going further down that line.

Not certain that parental responsibility comes into it. On the facts known so far it does not sound iresponsible to have let the children travel. 12 year olds if of average abilities should be able to use a train without parental supervision.

The error appears to have been on the part of the railway for not checking the train before locking it.

Bit more detail here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56476935

The later report linked to above, suggests last minute travel without tickets, rather than a properly planned journey.
That was somewhat irresponsible and dishonest on the part of the children. However it must be accepted that children DO things that most adults do not.
I do not feel that the parents should be blamed for a "one off" childish error. If the children REGULARLY do this sort of thing, then that might suggest a lack of parental control, but nothing in the published reports suggests anything but "one off" and relatively minor misbehavior.

The absence of tickets MIGHT suggest deliberate hiding from the staff checking the train.
This I must stress is PURE SPECULATION on my part, however it seems reasonable speculation, remembering that many passengers without tickets DO HIDE.

The possibility of deliberate hiding begs the question "how thoroughly are rail staff expected to check empty trains" ?
I would presume a simple walk through, to locate any child or adult who has fallen asleep, and not a full search under every seat.

I’m sure on train or station CCTV will clear up any inconsistencies from any of the parties involved.

Would you? Coz I'm not sure I would....

Agree.
If the girls were sleeping in plain view, and not found that suggests that the train was not checked.
If they were deliberately hiding, then in my view rail staff are not to be blamed.

It still sounds like the sort of relatively minor misbehavior to which children are prone. No serious harm was done.
Learning points for these children.
Buy a ticket.
Try to stay awake.
Do not hide.
Tell your parents where you are going and what you are doing.
Make certain that your cellphone is charged and in working order.

I would not consider two 12 year olds getting of a train to be of concern or something that should be reported, unless there was some ADDITIONAL REASON for concern.

If they looked sick, or injured, intoxicated, drugged, or otherwise distressed, then that would be cause for concern.
A very remote location, or very bad weather for which the youngsters were not dressed might also be grounds for concern.

But otherwise, it is IMHO OK for 12 year olds to use a train without parental supervision.

Agreed ... I might also take a second concerned look if it was late in the evening / at night, or if they were joining a very long distance service with minimal stops.  Joining the London Express at Glasgow Central, for example. But late afternoon getting on the Balloch or Helensburgh stopper, no second glance unless some of those other things you mentioned apply.

It looks like an investigation using the CCTV footage has revealed that the two girls deliberately hid under the seats from staff checking the train rather than falling asleep as originally claimed:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/two-12-year-old-girls-found-themselves-stuck-on-a-train-in-helensburgh-overnight-after-hiding-from-staff-3174652

Perhaps that's why they didn't use an emergency egress at some point during the night?  The railway has a duty of care for its passengers of course, even if they are fare evaders, so can't be blameless, but this does cast a rather different light on the matter, and also the reliability of the rest of the girls account of what happened.

Over the years, I've met at least two people who have woken up on an empty train in a siding early in the morning after an evening of extended refreshment.

In my younger days I tried to get left on a train late at night to avoid a long wait outdoors for the first train in the morning but always got spotted; I obviously needed some tips from these two!  I do hope the indignant mother has now stopped trying to blame railway staff.

Not extended refreshment, just tiredness after catching the old 'milk train' (really newspapers) back to the kent coast in my youth....those compartment coaching stock with decent heaters....you couldn't stay awake!

The only time I "tried" that, on a tube train, I was woken up and booted out of Ealing Broadway station a bit after midnight. Having sat on a park bench until I felt like doing something, I set off to walk the three miles plus home to Greenford where I was meant to be - and then had to explain to the local constabulary what I was up to and what I had under my arm. As that was a box full of small hand tools - screwdrivers, spanners, files, etc. - it was a proverbially long story, officer ...

Ah - I remember doing all line rovers in my youth ... the 18:58 Aberystwyth to York was a very useful train for a good long kip during the night if you didn't want to get to end up in more extreme places!

Given the new information concerning the circumstances of this incident I rather think that Bonnie is 'guilty as charged'. It is not always the rail industry that is at fault.

Might not be the fault of the mother.
Sounds to me more like the sort of relatively minor misbehavior to which children are prone.
Not to be encouraged, but also not hugely serious. No significant harm resulted.

Next time, buy a ticket, let mother know.

I think the point being made was that it wasn't the fault of the railstaff either - as their mother was trying pass the buck to them.

With that I agree.

Being objective, all involved can learn from this experience, and I hope that all involved can recognise and acknowledge that.

Indeed.  From the thread over on Railforums it is alleged that one of the mothers has spoken to BTP to apologise, with the other one still blaming Scotrail.

However, as one poster over on that forum said, it's a shame that many people would have read the original story in the various places it was published, thought bad of Scotrail, and won't then find out about the truer version of events.

One of the reasons I emphasised the word "objective" was in the knowledge that there will be at least a dozen "truer versions of events", largely depending on speculation, the authors perspective and narrative.

Defensiveness and shifting blame around (on all sides) won't achieve much - it's the learnings that matter as I alluded to above.

The most important outcome of this, because none involved have covered themselves in glory, is that Scotrail examine their processes to make sure that they are sufficiently robust to prevent a reoccurrence for passengers of any age, both for the safety and security of all and the network as a whole - no-one, irrespective of age, should ever be left locked in a train overnight.

No doubt the girls concerned will have learned an uncomfortable lesson about just how cold it is possible to get on a railway carriage overnight in Scotland, and their parents, who were no doubt driven to distraction with worry, will probably have a "quiet" word about their future behaviour and the desirability of keeping their phones charged at all times.

As per children throughout history, they will nod sagely, promise to be more careful in future, and within a month or two of enjoying some minor celebrity amongst their friends will carry on as before.

...........and the world will keep on spinning.

As will the press.