Great Western Coffee Shop

Was thinking about this this morning.

Taking a step back from the general chaos of the FGW region, FGW actually plough a lot of money into the region, and also First Group as a whole. First Great Eastern built new 360 desiros and TPEx have 185s as a side thought. Last time I checked FGW had to pay a LOT of money back to some silly accountant at the government, and yet they still decide to spend millions on refurbishing stations, the whole HST fleet (along with the new vehicles they acquired) and as much as we hate them they aren't really too bad, the whole DMU fleet is being done up, more staff are being employed, trains are being strengthened. The list goes on. One thing is for sure, First Group doesn't mind splashing out a bit!

Wessex Trains on the other hand; They had a Subsidy for their franchise and managed to refurbish the 150s, already falling apart when about to go back to FGW, 153369, 153329 and 2 158s I believe. What were Wessex doing with all the money they were being given?

Do you have a personal vendetta against Wessex Trains. You certainly seem to.
FGW have invested lots of money I agree but Wessex were better to the passengers which at the end of the day is the idea of a train company. They seemed more 'personal'.
Wessex Trains 150 refurbishment was pretty radical and a lot of the reason they are falling apart is because of Cardiff Canton. The main thing I noticed Canton did which is visible is take tables out of 150's. So many units are missing tables.

Tables were removed as they were damaged, sharp edges etc, this is a H&S issue. It seems spares of this type of thing are non-exsistant. I was on a newly refreshed 153 today that had two arm rests snapped off (leaving sharp edges) and one of the pull down tables missing, they'll never be replaced as expect these items arent stocked as spares so expect the refreshed fleet to become shabby, quickly!! The only reason the ex Wessex fleet is a state is the ongoing poor maintenance.

Some thoughts - and I write these based on my own local knowledge / line. The comparisons in (d) through (g) are not quite so stark elsewhere, I understand.

a) The "125" operation, with fares at 50p + per mile in peak hours, covering 125 miles in an hour and one driver per 8 coaches is a very different economic case to a "143" operation with fares at 25p per mile, 75 miles in an hour and a 2 coach train.  I make the 125 financial "take" about 16 times that of the 143.
 
b) With a combined franchise, the payment to the government from the 125 operation will be lessened by the cost of running the West fleet - it's still going to be "lossmaking" according to FGW.  Just 4% of income is on the local trains in the West (Somerset, Dorset, Devon, Cornwall).

c) First is still receiving a subsidy; payments to the government haven't yet kicked in. With increasing rail passengers (35% per annum on TransWilts to 2006) any operator would move in the "less subsidy needed" direction.

d) Wessex provided six journeys on the TransWilts line between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. whereas First provide none.

e) Cancellation rates on the TransWilts were about 2% under Wessex.  Under First in December and January they were over 7%.

f) Buy on the day (Monday to Friday) ticket price, adult return, no railcard, standard class now costs a minimum of 115 pounds as against 38 pound "supersavers" that I could buy 3 years ago for my local station.

g) Consultations which gave almost unanimous requests for the remaining train to arrive in Swindon later than proposed, and leave earlier than proposed, resulted in the OPPOSITE - the arrival was moved even earlier, and the departure even later.

h) There are a number of smart new signs at the local station, and the new staff uniforms look nice. The staff on the services remain helpful, friendly and professional.

Buy on the day tickets are for really silly people.
If you are going long distance you can't turn up and go for cheap prices.
It is like turning up at the airport without a ticket. Why can you expect to do it on the train?
Fares are cheaper, much cheaper.
CDR's are incredibilly cheap. For one person it is cheaper than petrol and parking.
Advance fares are much cheaper as well.

Or business people.

You can. You just have to know how to do it.

You can do it at the airport! I've gone to an airport a few times and got tickets to the north of England and Scotland.

What fares are?

A CDR is not cheaper on Bournemouth - London than petrol/parking if you get a decent parking spot!

Agreed. :p

They may be in Devon and Cornwall, they aren't closer to London.

Moreton-in-Marsh to Oxford is ^9.80, for 28 miles each way (the under-promoted Cotswold Railcard - still not mentioned on FGW's website - brings that down to ^6.45). Our peak day return is a cool ^12.60.

Barnstaple to Exeter Central is ^7 (^4.65 with a D+C railcard, I guess) for a journey of about 40 miles each way.

And just try getting firstminute fares on the Cotswold Line.

Only recently, with the hike in petrol prices (and ignoring depreciation) has it been cheaper (using my railcard) for me to travel into Oxford by rail and while I get free parking at work, I choose to use the train as much as I can, because Oxford traffic is lousy much of the time.

Once you move into the nearby territory where London Midland sets the fares, then CDR prices are more on a par with what you get in the South West, eg there is a ^3.50 flat rate evening return fare set by LM available for any journey in the area between Hereford and Moreton-in-Marsh. For more info on this, see http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsflatfarerev.htm/ (http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsflatfarerev.htm/)

I had to look for some comparable benchmark, Conner, and there's such a variety of specials and all the rest "book ahead" that a comparison is hard - especially as there isn't a retrospective fare site ("what it would have cost in 2005")

So as a further comparison, today, 17th April, I have looked at the price of going from my local station in Melksham to London Paddington - around 100 milkes each way - on Tuesday 22nd April and Thursday 22nd May, and seeing what fares I could get.

For next Tuesday, I was offered a total fare (2 singles) of 104.50 on the 06:43, or 115.00 (2 singles, or an open return) on the 07:17.   For five weeks time, I was offered 61.50 on the 06:43, or 79.00 on the 07:17.  Yes, those fares for next month are a good saving on current buy-on-the-day fares, but they are still an inflation-busting ripoff compared to the 38.00 pound fare I could have bought on the same day in 2005.

I have NOT tried looking at "split fares", nor on journeys that involve using a bus for part of the way followed by a train, nor at the National Express coach, all of which may come in at less that the 60 pounds.  I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect people to play games in booking, or to use a dramatically slower and less comfortable method of travel in making a "then" v "now" comparison.

1. That is their descion they could get a season ticket.
2. Not many people do though.
3. In general you can't though.
4. I said that later.
5. That is priced by SWT.

1. How can you get a season ticket for a journey that you may only do once?
2. Depends on the journey.
3. In general you can, depends on the airline. ;)
4. N/A
5. OK, compare for instance Basingstoke - London rte AP (priced by GW). I daresay it would be cheaper to travel by car on that one. Or perhaps Bedwyn - London rte AP.

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Maybe I do have a personal vendetta conner, and I don't care how unpersonal FGW are, I'm boarding their train, not having a relationship with them  :D

Besides I think 5 adults Paignton-Exeter Central return @^15 is a pretty personal gesture as that is cheap and saves ^10 over the normal fare.

Everybody on the train I was on was commenting on how cheap the tickets were, not how shabby the "bus" was  :)

Ummmmm business people can offset the fare against tax, hence the reason why so many First open returns are sold.
The conductors/drivers/station staff are the same people that were there under Wessex, the personal touch is down to individual staff members, Wessex wasted thousands on promotional crap like sweets, pens, mouse mats that was ultimately paid for by the tax payer, the sort of promotional crap that would never attract more people onto trains, yes, the 150 refurb was superb, but it was done as neccessity as the 150's were falling to bits. Wessex were supposed to have refurbed the 153's in 2004! it was put off and put off and never done, even though the funding was alegedly given to Wessex for this.

The tax rules don't allow a complete offset of the fare, they merely mean that the fare costs the company or businessperson 20% or 40% less (depending on whether they are a basic or higher rate tax payer).   Ie if I earn ^60,000 but spend ^5,000 pa on business travel, I get taxed on ^55,000 rather than ^60,000.  ^5,000 of my money goes to teh train company in place of ^2,000 geoing to the taxman The revenue will only grant you tax relief on first class fares if you can demonstrate a business reason for needing to travel first class.

wessex refurbed 4 158's 747,748,749 &751 in that crappy pink interior.
the 150 refurb was badly needed at the time and a lot of money was spent and yes they are looking shabby but this i believe is down to poor maintainance,not just at canton but exeter aswell and of late phillips marsh (maybe the later because refresh is iminent?)
i agree first group do spend money but some of the problems will not go away by chucking money at it,and from the look of things andrew haines has realised this as some of the organisation is being restructered without splashing the cash.

First didn't build anything, the leasing companies procure, own & refurbish rolling stock and lease it to FGW at increased cost.This increased cost is what they are currently "splashing out".  Once the initial subsidy stops and they have to pay money back what will happen?  Will they just hand back the keys and walk away?  Will they cross subsidise from their other franchises to make their premium payments?  Or will they manage to do it?

Sorry to upset the FGW supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

Yes the last two years have been crap, but now things have improved, and personally, in my part of the world anyway, I think things are better than pre "04/06", yes they took two steps back but I think they now have gone three steps forward, and by this time next year if all goes to plan then there will be a far superior service in Cornwall and Devon to what Wessex provided.

Well, they need to do alot to the timetable for that.
Destinations currently are much more limited as is stock allocation.

disagree with the part about lease companies refurbishing the stock,the rest is correct though

first changed the lease on the units so they pay less per month to the roscos,in return first foot the bill for all repairs,servicing,heavy maintainance and refurbishments.

smithy, are First paying more, less or about the same as "market rate" to lease the ex-Arriva Class 150 units?

Destinations are more limited because there are no pointless services like Penzance to Bristol TM stopping at every lamp post or Penzance to Milford Haven in 12 hours, instead we have more London trains (which people actually use), more connections at Plymouth from our stoppers, into XC and London services. Anyone who thinks Wessex were perfect have got very short memories! 153 on the Newquay in Peak summer, 153 on Falmouth peak summer, and 153 Looe peak summer, that was POOR unit allocation! doesn't happen now!

But Wessex didn't put 150's without luggage space for large cases on the connecting trains for XC and London. That is poor stock allocation.

 if atw had any sense they would add a bit on for themselves as technically fgw are leasing direct from arriva,after all it is about supply and demand.fgw desperatly needed them but atw did not

Oh yes they did! So basicly what your saying is that the 158's on the Cardiff Portsmouths would be better allocated to the Penzance-Plymouth shuttles? 150's have plenty of overhead luggage space but passengers don't use it, I think that putting 3 car 158's on CDF-PMH services (basicly an intercity route) is far better stock allocation!

The main connections to London trains continued to Bristol under Wessex and were 158's.
Overhead luggage space can't accomodate big cases.
3-car 158's is brilliant and much better stock aallocation but Wessex still managed to give us 158's when they made 3-car 158's for Portsmouth-Cardiff.

How can the connections to London trains continue to Bristol locally? Surely they would hold up the express?

10:30 ish off Penzance to Cardiff connected at Taunton.
12 ish off Penzance to Bristol connected at Newton Abott with about 15 mins to spare behind the Paignton HST which wasn't fast.

Right. Overall, I do think that 158s should be used rather than 150s, but it depends on the number of units available!

Just a polite request - can you please just "reply" rather than "quote".

Damn..... the chain has broken! :D

the overhead luggage racks on a 150 can hold massive cases, I do work on these units every day of the week so do know what can fit on the overhead racks. Are we not forgetting where all our 158's went on the orders of the DFT???

That's a very fair point, John!

As the last 'page' of posts has been created by ever-increasing 'quotes', following one after another, would anyone object if I 'condensed' them, by removing all the blocks of repeated text - just for ease of reading?

 ;)

150 racks are some of the best I know. Shame they are dirty!

Can't even put a coat up on an Adelante/Turbostar!

When you put a holdall up on a 158, it always looks as if either the rack is going to snap off, or the bag will slip out!

Why are racks so rubbish on new trains (ok 158s are hardly new, but you know...), especially when luggage space is short (Voyagers)?

Voyager were in general, badly designed...

Dont you means Voyagers ARE Badly Designed.........and dont you think Cases that people bring on trains are getting Bigger

They were designed (as a verb) some years ago.

Yes, cases are getting bigger. Wheels have a lot to answer for, as they have enabled the trend to mega-size cases.

I think Voyagers were well designed with their internals apart from the horribly oversized toilets in every coach (that or the shop).

The improvements that could be made to the general design would be no underfloor engines, etc.

cases are getting bigger aswell as luggage space on newer trains smaller,voyagers are absolute rubbish turbostars are slightly better.

Voyagers are, without doubt, the WORST trains on the UK rail system.

*They smell inside
*The air conditioning has only three levels: too hot, too cold, or broken
*There are few seats
*Little legroom
*Uncomfortable seats (that are probably bad for your back, as your neck is made to lean forward)
*Little space for luggage
*Your luggage has a better view out of the window than you do - the seats are not alighted to the windows but ALL luggage racks are
*The exterior doors take too long to open and close - not exactly helping Virgin's/XC's poor punctuality
*The internal doors shut on you if you are queuing to alight
*The reservation system frequently breaks/sprouts nonsense
*Too many disabled toilets
*Lots of vibrations
*Blind on the windows, so a selfish person in the airline seat ahead of you can decide to deny you a view out of the window, leaving you to stare at the scratched seat back and the people near you.
*Feel claustrophobic
*Are noisy
*Have no guards' van
*Break down if they get sea water in them
*Overhead racks are bad (see above)
*Many people do not know how to lock the toilet doors, leading to embarrassing moments (I know, it is their fault)
*The shop runs out of bacon rolls

In this list, I have only scrapped the surface, by all means add to the list! The sooner they are put into double formation and redesigned internally the better (or preferably scrapped when HST2 come in!).

I was thinking "could be worse" until you said that......

Which is supposedly being modded - it's because the loos were designed as being in something that won't move  ;D ;D
Mention it to the TM, they can change the internal temperature.
If there were more coaches in the units (blame the SRA for that) the seating issue would be covered. Little legroom is problem on all modern units today. Uncomfortable seats is due to the RVAR regulations.
It's actually proven that some people don't want a view out of a window! For instance glare from the sun can make it harder to work on a laptop.
Would be quicker if the TM did the close doors themselves...
Problem on all modern units again. The HSTs do partially have this problem though.
On the Bournemouth route we tend to have paper reservations as well!!
Agreed.
As in my earlier post, this could be solved by putting in power cars of some description.
That's sadly due to the seat layout, which a lot of people prefer insanely.
Not as noisy as a Valenta ;)
What modern units do?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You forgot the fault where if tilting or going ~110mph+ the lock can release....
:P

On your HST2 note, according to Roger Ford it seems like it's going to be more like a IEP now ... (Intercity EMU Project)...

Well, I agree that some of the above are "modern unit" problems, but they are still problems!

What's that about the door springing open when at 110 mph? ???

The temp is always bad because you have the heaters at the side blasting heat at your legs, and the air con freezing your body. Or they are both broken.

Most units (even modern ones) have doors that are on automatic sensors so you don't get shut in them.

They do?

None of the 22x variants do, no Desiro variants do, not sure about Electrostars... unless you're talking about external doors - in which case not very many units have those!

Don't know any that do.
A HST door shut voilently on me the other day just after I triggered the footpad and it quite hurt, alot more than a voyager door..

"Without doubt"? Shouldn't that be "In my opinion"? I quite like them, and they're infinitely better than a 142 on jointed track!


I travel from between Barnstaple and Leeds quite often; last Friday we left Leeds 15 minutes late and got to Exeter St Davids nearly two minutes late (the least punctual it's been on my last ten or so trips). FGWs connecting train left Exmouth on time, and lost six minutes by the time it got to St Davids...


They make a satisfying grinding noise if you shove them open, though :)

Not strictly true

I have been doing this forseveral years and had a few expense enquiries - whilst they have thrown out evening meals (when staying away) because "the food items require a domestic kitchen" (they dont seem to consider the concept of a microwave in the office kitchen) I have NEVER been asked to justify a first class ticket

However, just because I CAN offset against tax, it should not give the train companies a chance to fleece me.

Additionally, you can only offset against tax if you are self employed or run a business - feel for employees who have to use the train

Well, it is my opinion of course! I think comparing a Pacer to anything is a little unfair. ;D


They make a satisfying grinding noise if you shove them open, though :)
[/quote]
 :P

I actually think they are better than a 150 or 153, if in 4-car formation, which a lot are. They actually work well on the Devon Metro.

Well ok. What I am saying, is that you can't compare branch line/devon services and its trains, with long distance trains.

No you can't.
But I would rather sit on a Pacer for Paignton-Exeter than a Voyager.

XC has a LOT of slack timing in its timetable, often over 20 minutes from start to finish. Devon local services on the other hand do not!

Another reason why you can't compare the two.

Good. It means that when they say they'll get me to my destination at a particular time they are more likely than not to keep their promise.


And whose fault is that?

No idea whos fault it is, Slack is bad in my opinion and XC is just stupid.

Slack is very bad.

Slack timetable = Slack operation = Delay

If they put slack into the Devon metro then everyone would moan that they've increased journey times!!

8)