Great Western Coffee Shop

Here are some old maps ... but the text on them has been scraped off.  Can you identify stations "A" through "E" or "F" on each of them, and roughly date the map?   Please choose one map each initially.

1.  West London, 1870, Oxonhutch
A - Addison Road (now Kensington Olympia), B - West Brompton, C - Hammersmith, D - Edgware Road, E - Bayswater.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_01_ask.jpg)

2.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_02_ask.jpg)

3. Swansea Bay, 1963 - Froome
A is Llangennech B is Landore Junction C is Swansea High Street D is Swansea Victoria E is Gowerton South
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_03_ask.jpg)

4.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_04_ask.jpg)

5. Highlands / North West Scotland, 1900, Stuving and eightonedee
Garve (C) - Ullapool (A); Cononbridge (F) - Cromarty (E); Culrain (D) - Lochinver (B)
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_05_ask.jpg)

6.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_06_ask.jpg)

7. South East London, 1962, Reginald25
A- Bromley North B- Hayes C- Petts Wood D- Orpington E- Shortlands
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_07_ask.jpg)

8. Tyneside, 1938, Lympstone Commuter
A) Walker Gate. B) Walker. C) Percy Main. D) Manors E) High Shields
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_08_ask.jpg)

9.South West Ireland, 1995, TonyN
A: Barrow bridge B: Snowhill tunnel C: Waterford D: Enniscorthy E: Rosslare Europort F: Wexford
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_09_ask.jpg)

10. North Central Wales - 1902, eightonedee
A = Llangollen or Berwyn B = Bala Junction C = Ruabon D = Corwen E = Festiniog
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_10_ask.jpg)

8. A) Walkergate. B) Walker. C) Percy Main. D) Manors.

Date - 1930s?

7 A- Bromley South
   B- Hayes
   C- Petts Wood
   D- Orpington
   E- Shortlands

pre 1998 (Elmers End to Addiscombe line closed in 1997 and converted to Tramlink later)

1: A - Addison Road (now Kensington Olympia), B - West Brompton, C - Hammersmith, D - Edgware Road, E - Bayswater. Around 1870 before Earls Court opened.

9.
A: Barrow bridge
B: Snowhill tunnel
C: Waterford
D: Enniscorthy
E:Rosslare Europort
F: Wexford
Date Around 2000

5: The solid lines are the Highland Railway, the dashed lines are light railways; some built, some not, some in between:
Garve (C) - Ullapool (A)
Conobridge (F) - Cromarty (E) (though as proposed F was Dingwall)
Culrain (D) - Lochinver (B)

As to date - this all happened around 1900, but the map is likely to be later, when the distinction between closed and never built was a bit vague.

5 Highlands

A = Ullapool
B = Lochinver
C = Garve
D = Lairg
E = Cromarty
F = Muir of Ord

If it's a passenger network map (trains & buses) it will be before 1951, when the Fortrose branch closed

PS just seen that Stuving may have got there first!

The map date for no 7 must be pre 1976. That is the earliest BR network map I have and by 1976 the south east is shown as a network diagram not a map. The other detail maps are in the style of map 7.

Surely the map itself is much more recent - presumably part of a set (in a book?) to show the building up of the network, leading to a map in the current graphics style.

PS - that current style (which also has interchanges shown) goes back to 1998 but not 1994.

Yes - and E is High Shields.  Dated 1938.

The main circuit north of the river, and the line to South Shields, now form the basis of the Newcastle Metro.  At the time of the map, it was 3rd rail electric; it went back to a period of first generation diesels between the two.  The riverside branch faded to a limited service and closed a long time ago.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/plan_8_ans.jpg)

3 is the Swansea Bay area, pre-1964 when the line shown closest to the bay closed. I wouldn't like to hazard a more exact guess as to the date, though the map looks ancient even to me!

A is Llangennech
B is Landore Junction
C is Swansea High Street (which is now known just as Swansea)
D is Swansea Victoria
E is Gowerton South

Yes ... though I left "A" floating somewhere in fresh air and was expecting "Bromley North".    Comes from the early 1960s - from the Beeching report showing lines in London to be closed or modified.   Just off the map area shown, Woodside to Sanderstead was in black - earmarked for closure.   London Commuter areas got off relatively lightly. Crystal Palace High Level, Greenwich Park, Gravesend West and Westerham has already been lost by that time I recall (from a study of history, not personal knowledge, you will appreciate!)

Yes - as at the end of 1870, drawn 135 years later.

Yes, and dated 1995.

Yes ..


The dashed lines are proposals for light railways around 1900.   The branch from Cononbridge to Cromarty was partly constructed but never completed (see - there is a precedent for Crossrail and HS2) and the branches to Ullapool and Lochiver never got off paper at all.   To my knowledge, the only proposed light railway in The Highlands that got through to opening was Wick to Lybster - though Highlands in name and not in fact.  Further south, the Mallaig and (?) Fort Augustus lines were being built around this time too.

1963  ;D. ... from the Western Region Timetable.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/pln_n_ans.jpg)

So that map represents a stage in the evolution of planned routes from the long list the 1900 Walpole commission start out with (including lines to Altbea and Laxford, across Skye, and a network(!) on Lewis), to the ones with railways acts (Ullapool, Altbea), then surveyed, then started, and then the very short list indeed of those completed. There's a lot of stuff on this on Andy Drummond's website (https://www.andydrummond.net/impossiblematerials.html) (he wrote a recent book on Garve-Ullapool), and for those who like visiting parallel universes (well, where else this year?) he has a full timetables and fares (https://www.andydrummond.net/QIP/Images/QIP_brochure.pdf) for all these railways, and a journey planner (https://www.andydrummond.net/impossiblejourney.php#networkhash). Oh, and a "new" route diagram:
(https://www.andydrummond.net/QIP/Images/QIP_network_plan_EN.jpg)

Agreed - shouold have been Bromlet North.

10 Looks like a GWR network map from the 1923 to 1948 era of North Wales - which I think means-

A = Llangollen
B = Bala
C = Ruabon
D = Corwen
E = Festiniog

It's even older - from the 1902 GWR timetable map.  Or newer because it's from a much more recent reprint  :D . You can "tell" the age because the GWR ends at Oswestry; important (i.e. GWR) lines are shown in thick red and unimportant (i.e. other company) lines are shown in thin black.

I'll give you those stations  ... letters floating a bit, and I would suggest that Bala is actually Bala Junction and Llangollen is perhaps nearer to Berwyn.   Both are close pairs; indeed, I walked between both pairs in about the year 18BL (Before Lisa) - derelict at Llangollen, and shrunken at Bala Junction.

Solved so far ...

1. West London, 1870, Oxonhutch
A - Addison Road (now Kensington Olympia), B - West Brompton, C - Hammersmith, D - Edgware Road, E - Bayswater.

3. Swansea Bay, 1963 - Froome
A is Llangennech B is Landore Junction C is Swansea High Street D is Swansea Victoria E is Gowerton South

5. Highlands / North West Scotland, 1900, Stuving and eightonedee
Garve (C) - Ullapool (A); Cononbridge (F) - Cromarty (E); Culrain (D) - Lochinver (B)

7. South East London, 1962, Reginald25
A- Bromley North B- Hayes C- Petts Wood D- Orpington E- Shortlands

8. Tyneside, 1938, Lympstone Commuter
A) Walker Gate. B) Walker. C) Percy Main. D) Manors E) High Shields

9. South West Ireland, 1995, TonyN
A: Barrow bridge B: Snowhill tunnel C: Waterford D: Enniscorthy E: Rosslare Europort F: Wexford

10. North Central Wales - 1902, eightonedee
A = Llangollen or Berwyn B = Bala Junction C = Ruabon D = Corwen E = Festiniog

Still awaiting answers (anyone now?) ..

2.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_02_ask.jpg)

4.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_04_ask.jpg)

6.
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_06_ask.jpg)

Is 6 the area around Chiswick? 

I think it's much closer to home - Graham's home that is. How about this?

A is Melksham. Seems a bit far from the line, but then it was before new building crept towards the station.
B is Calne.
C is Bradford-on-Avon
D is ... Malmesbury? see below.
E must be Bath, also showing the Midland's line to Queen Square.
F is Devizes. I can't get the dashed line alongside to mean anything - not broad gauge, for a start.

Now, the line built via Malmesbury didn't run there, and was built by the GWR. But an earlier proposal for the Wiltshire and Gloucestershire Railway did turn off at Christian Malford, which is the route shown, and the broad line would indicate non-GWR (odd though it seems).

So what the map shows is dateable as about 1862-1871.

The only thing that dosen't seem to fit is the Junction at Bathampton seems to point the wrong way?

True, but not the only small area of questionable cartography. And there's that mysterious water feature next to the Calne branch, too. But on the whole?

Yes ... and I would agree about the rather questionable cartography. Very much old fashioned and there appears to be a degree of artists' impression in there in addition to the distortions of my removal of the text.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/route6_orig.jpg)

The line from BOA which now joins the GW mainline facing Bath, shows it facing Box only. I wasn't aware that change happened but it confused me!
+

OK, let me have a stab at No. 2: Between 1975 and 1982 the Fylde/East Lancs area. A: Blackpool North, B: Blackpool South, C: Kirkham & Wesham, D: Blackburn, and E: Squire's Gate. It would be after the South Fylde line was reduced to a shuttle service and before Blackpool Pleasure Beach, Moss Side and Lostock Hall stations (re)opened. Salwick station, served by one morning and evening train only - for the BNFL works - is missing.

Hmm ... it does sorta-fit, but, no, too far north, I'm afraid.  Salwick would have been another excellent choice for yesterday's timetable quiz, wouldn't it?  (And before you look at that, no, it isn't one of the answers!)

Let me complete those for you ...

2.  I asked about ...
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_02_ask.jpg)
... which I thought was a Brill quiz though it Wood send some of you up a Siding ...
... and filled in, that is
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/soln_7017.jpg)


4. I asked about ...
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/maxmap_04_ask.jpg)
Although very much at the Centre of World Trade, it's not close to home and I probably should have Exchanged it for a Place more familiar to our members.
... filled in that is
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/soln_7016.jpg)

I thought 4 was North American but was looking too far north in your Canadian ports.

I should have guessed the Brill Tramway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Tramway) as it has been a favourite of mine since student days when I traced the part of the old line from Wotton up to the gated boundary of the then - secret (it wasn't on our maps and so quite a surprise! Only later did I learn what it was.) - rocket research facility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Westcott), now a business park. From the 1920's Wotton was shown as a 'UndergrounD' interchange with the Great Central whose station master it shared. A more bazaar outpost of the Metropolitan Railway is hard to imagine - but still it ensured that No. 23 is still with us today.

Added links for those not so familiar

The PATH - [Port Authority Trans Hudson] is an oddball in many ways - not a part of the main New York Subway system and with its own map.   A little bit like ThamesLink having its own map in London (another thread running on that at the moment).   The long red tail is out to Newark ... Lisa and I stayed in Newark for a few days a number of years ago and used the PATH into Manhattan; I remember buying a multi journey ticket and passing in back over the barrier to let the second one of us swipe through a few seconds behind ... on the advice of the staff.   How things differ!


It is indeed fascinating ... on my list of "places I would want to take a look at if in the area" ...