Great Western Coffee Shop

There are several silver linings to the cloud of Coronavirus around us as the moment.  One is the ability to attend (virtual) meetings that are Manchester based without having to travel all the way "up north" and another is the ability to not only listen to what speakers are saying, but also to pick up the questions and comments from other attendees via chat should they choose to address them to everyone at the meeting.

We [with railway lines in the South West and Thames Valley] are NOT in competition with those with railway lines in the North for passengers.  There is no choice that customers make on a daily basis "Should I catch a train from Warminster to Bristol today, or should I travel from Todmorden to Leeds?".  So we can listen and learn from the experience of others, and share what we are doing in case it is useful to them, and work together in schemes that commonly work across England (+ Wales / Scotland?). This is very much the spirit / approach of Community Rail Network, with the far and wide learning, support and commonality being tuned and tailored to meet more local - sometimes much more local needs.

A huge THANK YOU to Transport for the North in organising today's Community and Rail User Group online conference, and the ability to attend as an observer.  So fantastically useful - in what I learned, in the comfort of knowing that the other regions are in very similar through processes (all be it with different balances) to ours, and in the inspiration from a whole load of very well informed people.

TfN is a regional transport body (SnTB) - see a summary at https://transportactionnetwork.org.uk/summary-of-regional-transport-bodies/ which however needs a slight update.  The equivalents for areas covered by GWR's service are
* Transport for the South East
* Western Gateway
* Peninsula Transport
* England?s Economic Heartland
The page just quoted says "While they are normally led by local authority leaders, there is very little input, if any from the voluntary or social and environmental sectors." and so far I look in vain for any sign of a Western Gateway (my home area) Community Rail conference, or indeed for very much engagement with the community.  I wonder if we might look forward in a year or two to an event like the TfN one - addresses by half a dozen top notch speakers, listening to and answering questions from the best part of 200 volunteers and other participants, and looking forward to what and how things are being and need to be done to bring back rail from its current passenger volume depth to - and beyond - where it was a year ago.

I will follow up with two more posts - one to pass on the public messages from attendees mentioned above and the other - a report on content.  Incoming email on a deadline here ... off to other topics for a while - just got critical data for a consultation that closes next Monday.

Views shared from The North .... (these explicitly to "All panelists and other attendees" which was NOT the default - it had to be explicitly chosen). Chronological order from 11 a.m. to just after 1 p.m.    Please feel free to quote across to other threads as they relate to us in the South West.

From Stephen Waring

Good morning everyone. I am Stephen Waring, Chair of Halifax & District Rail Action Group. We must get people back on trains, assured they are safe, after Covid, but we must accept travel patterns may change with less emphasis on city travel. Do our speakers agree that this should be seen as an opportunity to repurpose the railway in a better form. In particular, can we think of three aims?
(a)   No return to ?sardine can commuting?;
(b)   All public transport ? people travelling together ? to be rebranded as *sociable transport* good for human interaction promoting mental and physical health as well as a clean and climate-friendly environment;
(c)   Supported by the whole community, railways to serve the whole community for an ever-widening range of journey purposes.



Alex Nelson

How does a senior executive in Transport for the North "not need" to have travelled on a train since March?   Perhaps you ought to get out more!



John Holmes

Good Morning everybody I'm John Holmes Secretary to Action for Yorkshire Transport (used to be CBT)
In the years ahead we should have a rolling programme of electrification of all major lines including all the routes of Transpennine.



Jeffrey Wong

I like trains, we should use Mayfield Station for Platform 15/16



PaulC

We must encourage people back to rail, safely.   Whilst big projects like HS2, Transpennine, electrification, decarbonisation are important, please don't ignore improvements in existing poor local services and creation of new services crossing boundaries in local government (c.1974). Pontefract and the Five Towns area of Wakefield District is a classic example of the latter issue.



Richard Lysons

Can I be the first person this morning to mention ?community rail? ? Essential for any future for our railways. Richard Lysons Chair, Friends of Littleborough Stations



David Hagerty

What has the Northern Transport Acceleration Council (announced in June) done to speed up major projects and in particular the Transpennine Route Upgrade?
David Hagerty, Slaithwaite & Marsden Action on Rail Transport, Stalybridge to Huddersfield Rail Users? Group



John Holmes

Proposed station at Leeds Bradford International Airport Parkway Station should be cancelled and other local stations reopened like Calverley and Horsforth Woodside



James Ford

I would like to hear what plans TfN has to respond to the expectations set out in the Reversing Beeching applications as none of these schemes featured in TfN plans and appear to be below the radar of TfN. Are TfN taking any of these schemes on board especially the ones which would require greater investment than the quick wins.



Anne Ridley

There seems to be an industry acknowledgement that leisure travel is the key area for the future.  Local data (Tyne Valley CRP area) shows that in 2020 there is a growth of 20% in use of car parks at some of the local attractions.  We all need to focus in encouraging people get out of their cars



Jeffrey Wong

What happened to Network Rail's Northern Upgrade and their "Digital Railway"??



Patrick Rice

For Brian B (or others) - any early indication from DfT where CRPs sit, once the world is all Management contracts...?



Jeffrey Wong

What work has Northern Trains done with ROSCOs to increase train availability and rolling stock refurbishment?



John Holmes

Why has Leeds stopped its Clean Air Zone (CAZ), when we been told the improvements to the air quality is only a temporary blip, we need to get more passengers on public transport and freight on to the railway.



Tim Calow

It seems to me that there is a big challenge persuading people to come back. Ex commuters with whom I have spoken remember the packed trains (600 crammed in 4 car trains) and are saying never again . My protestations that it is so different now don't really make any difference



Jeffrey Wong

We in the North have the worst accuracy of record for step free access!
We also have the worst reliable passenger information!



John Holmes

We need special promotions and cheap fares to encourage passengers back to rail and less of officials telling people not to travel.



carol

What is the opinion of TfN regarding the possible re-opening of the Manchester, Chinley, Buxton, Matlock to London line put forward by Manchester & East Midlland Rail Action Partnership?



Stephen Waring

The link between rail service development and community rail is essential. Invoking point (c) in my question at the top of this box, if the railway is to serve everybody, should not every railway be, in a sense, a community railway?



Tom Irvin

Hello there, Tom Irvin from the Friends of the Barton Line in northern Lincolnshire. Couple of suggestions as we try to encourage people back and indeed encourage completely new passengers: 1) In order to compete with the car's fixed costs regardless of number of passengers, could group travel discounts be introduced in a similar manner to the Group Save tickets widely available in the south east and the Duo tickets which were withdrawn by Arriva Rail North?
2) Could off peak restrictions have local conditions taken in mind when setting them, both in terms of passenger numbers and the timetable - to cite an example in one case local to us with have a contra peak train departing at 08:55, 5 minutes before cheap day tickets are valid and 2 hours before the next train. 3. Is there any case for cheap ticket offers marketed to all, perhaps with a quota per resident as per the Belgian free travel for each household.



David Carlisle

A positive change in safety perception has not followed seeing more face coverings, cleaning operations, etc.  Do the panel think that improvements in on-train ventilation to provide working plenum systems would help??  (i.e. visible technical modifications introduced to safely remove respired air).



PaulC

We know the vaccine is not here yet, how much are rail partners across the industry pushing the DfT to moderate their current advice to stay to encourage people back to rail over the winter?



Ben Walsh

As regards young people and trains, as alluding to what Brian Barnsley said, there should be much more involvement, at schools, with Public Transport, the use of and confidence in using them.



Peter Wightman

We agree with David Hoggarth and others on the need to build rail demand back up to avoid a spiral of decline in the rail network.
The Hyde Loop (Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill line) is a good example.  This line has seen an extreme cut in services during the pandemic, which won't be restored above 50% until December 2021 or later.
This makes building demand back up even harder. Together with the Friends of Rose Hill station we wrote a report on how to 'build back better' (e.g. introducing Sunday and evening services) and this has been circulated to our contacts.
What advice do the panel have on how to get our local needs taken seriously, and escape the spiral of decline?
Peter Wightman, Goyt Valley Rail Users' Association



John Holmes

It is time that rail operating companies listened to rail user groups, they have more local knowledge and in touch with passengers.



Jeffrey Wong

As a rail enthusiast I have no interest nor confidence to get back onto rail at this time.



Mike Loftus

Picking up on a point by Tony Miles. No, we don't need EV charging points at all station car parks. If the car park is used for long stay parking, it would just clog up the charging point.



Jeffrey Wong

Has Network Rail and ATOC even done anything to engage with passengers and non rail users after the overrun engineering works that led to the timetable scandal?!



Jeffrey Wong

What is even a confidence in rail travel when TOCs cannot even sort out their timetable!



Stephen Waring

The other wider thing about community rail is opening up new markets. Leisure and personal business as well as city-based travel. Quite apart from the "reverse Beeching" programme such as it is, there is potential for new services over existing routes that already have occasional passenger trains. Might examples include the line from Wakefield through Castleford direct to York which could carry a regional service from East Lancashire, Calderdale and Kirklees to York and beyond. Not everyone needs to go to or through Leeds! Such a service would have massive potential for a dozen towns and communities along the route for economic and cultural development.



Jeffrey Wong

DEAR DFT, WHERE IS MY PLATFORM 15/16. WHAT ABOUT MAYFIELD STN??



John Moorhouse

Encouraging people back to trains - any comments on plans for fares offers/initiatives?



David Sidebottom

Good point from John Moorhouse. We should learn later today about the regulated fare increase in January (RPI +1% possibly?). With commuting patterns likely changed for good and the annual season a distant memory for many (50% of rail commuters telling Transport Focus that they won't be going back to 5 days per week travel) the introduction of more flexible seasons and ticket bundles is a start.



Trevor Bishop

Compulsory reservations are all well and good but why has the railway not made reservations automatic on buying any ticket?



Jeffrey Wong

SAVE OUR PACERS! CLASS 140-144 :d



Me

Huge THANK YOU to rail professionals who have kept thing running; doing their very best (in our area) to continue to work with community but limited in what can be done.  Look forward to working together into future. Journey Makers program useful - could / should extend to minor stations? [Graham Ellis - http://www.passenger.chat]



John Holmes

Single fare tickets should be half the cost of a return ticket and not a ?1.00 less than a return ticket, this would allow passengers do a triangular journey.



Richard Lysons

A National Rail Card - for those between Young and Senior and who do not qualify for any other category?



Kim

One problem getting passengers back is the all too recent memories of constantly overcrowded trains with not enough rolling stock. I do not dispute for one moment that our trains are clean but many people's experience is of too many people and not enough carriages. Its not just social distancing it is some comfort in travelling too. We also need to reopen many local lines that would also have a knock-on effect for travelling in a little more comfort on our rail network. Now is the time to work on this and prepare for a future that cannot include people being treated like sardines.



Phil Rowbotham

The public are receiving  mixed messages.   Stay safe, don?t travel  vs  for example Avani?s recent Friday off-peak all day offer to get people back to their empty trains again.
Having used Northern?s trains recently for business reasons, from my experience they are now fantastic, almost empty, spotless, almost always on time, and the majority are brand new.

The public are receiving  mixed messages.   Stay safe, don?t travel  vs  for example Avani?s recent Friday off-peak all day offer to get people back to their empty trains again.
Having used Northern?s trains recently for business reasons, from my experience they are now fantastic, almost empty, spotless, almost always on time, and the majority are brand new.
How does the panel feel about convincing the public to travel again, safely, by train? The public are receiving mixed messages. For example, ?stay safe, don?t travel?don?t vs say Avanti?s recent Friday off peak all day travel to get passengers on their empty trains again.



PaulC

Well said, Kim!  Pontefract Civic Society supports your message. Pre-Lockdown #1 the Leeds-Knottingley service at peak time was "sardines in a can" (which we must admit peaks are longer periods than years ago).



Terry

By the time the rail industry recovers will the Williams Review have become out of date?



Jeffrey Wong

Are the passengers part of the collaboration??



Kim

prospective passengers in Reddish South & Denton would certainly travel on the train - if only we had a passenger service|!!!!



Stephen Waring

Brian is right. Need confidence in safety. People's fear is it may be OK now with near empty trains, but what if crowds return before we've got rid of Covid? No return to sardine-can commuting!



Jeffrey Wong

Confidence in punctuality, fair ticketing, delay repay, and disabled access ppls...



Ben Walsh

There needs to be much more emphasis on Leisure travel, for Rail to pick up on.



Patrick Rice

Audio is on folks...



Ben Garratt

While we are in this 5 min break, just having a quick look at the questions - Dennis, the answer to your question for LNER is that reservations can be made online up to 5 minutes before each service leaves each station. The aim of this is to balance reservation-only with flexibility



Patrick Rice

Just to repeat and advise - audio is still on.



Jeffrey Wong

What do the industry want with young people who may not have completed university or college degree??



Rachel Singer

Matt Worman?s comment about observing passenger flows throughout 2021 seems a very leisurely, reactive response. Should the rail industry not be proactive about enabling more leisure and off peak travel - N.B. the case for a full service on the Hyde Loop and Rose Hill line, already mentioned in this Chat. Please can we have an answer about TfN?s view of this?
Above was from Rachel Singer, Chair, the Friends of Rose Hill Station



Stephen Waring

Precising my earlier strategic question, could the following be elements of a manifesto for future transport?
(a)   No return to ?sardine can commuting?;
(b)   All public transport ? people travelling together ? to be rebranded as *sociable transport* good for human interaction promoting mental and physical health as well as a clean and climate-friendly environment;
(c)   Supported by the whole community, railways to serve the whole community (not just city-travellers) for an ever-widening range of journey purposes.
Stephen Waring, Chair HADRAG



Jeffrey Wong

DIRECT GOVERNANCE!



PaulC

David H - we know Leeds is busy, normally, a pinchpoint in services across the region.  Is your solution to see Leeds further developed to accommodate more services, or is it more appropriate to develop services AVOIDING Leeds.  Examples like extending Huddersfield - Castleford onto Doncaster, thus onward connections (leisure & business), and Sheffield - Pontefract Baghill - York with onward connections either end.



Terry

To Paul Cartwright in particular do you think there would be any traction in running a service from the five towns through Castleford to Selby and Brough and Hull via the diversionary route so linking parts of West Yorkshire and East Yorkshire?



John Holmes

The LNER Huddersfield to London service runs via Leeds, this should run via Wakefield Kirkgate and Harepark Junction to Doncaster then KX



Ben Walsh

I think it would help to have carnet tickets for ALL operators - to allow travel on their trains.



Phil Rowbotham

Thanks Matt. I feel that the public should be messaged to assured them that non-peak train travel is now OK and safe. [Apologies, this messenger service doesn?t show pasted questions clearly, hence my duplicates earlier].



Stephen Waring

Lucja. Yes! Make rail go where people want to go. And let it be flexible, walk-up, not penalising people who can't book in advance.



PaulC

Terry (I presume Selby), there maybe potential though someone is pushing an additional route there (which doesn't exist to York, whereas route do exist from Sheffield to York which lacks usable services, that's our focus, but happy to discuss offline. We also want Pontefract to connect eastwards to the Humber, Lincs, etc



Ben Walsh

More INTEGRATED TRAVEL - Bus to Train/Train to Bus.



James Ford

There have been a lot of direct to London services introduced east of the pennines (Huddersfield, Skipton, Bradford etc) but not to the west and substantial communities such as Bolton Blackburn and Southport would benefit from similar initiatives. These are not villages but towns of 100000 people or more. Shouldn't the industry be ensuring that these benefits are spread about on the west of the north as well as the east.



Terry

Thanks Paul, yes it was me and maybe something Railfuture might have a view on.



Jeffrey Wong

What do the industry want with young people who may not have completed university or college degree??
What happened to Network Rail's Northern Upgrade and their "Digital Railway"??



John Holmes

It is time we had road pricing, that goes up by the same amount as the national rail fares percentage increase



Trevor Bishop

The idea that flexi-seasons will lose money is ridiculous, its more likely to attract people to rail that didn't travel before, the Treasury needs to understand that changes to travel patterns were happening BEFORE Covid.



Dennis Fancett

The problem with what Lucia is saying is that rail companies determine "where passengers want to go" by looking at previous patronage figures which are distorted by poor service. if no trains, then no passengers either! That's why Cramlington, the largest town in Northumberland, only has a service every 2 hours at present. Please start again by looking at station catchment area populations and adjust services to reflect.



Jeffrey Wong

We the British Taxpayer are paying for German fares!



Kim

What Lucja was saying was interesting. - What young people (or anyone) want is not to have to travel to get to a station - if you do not have good local services what is the point of having to go by car to get to a station? If I want to go to Manchester or London I have to go by car to even get to my local station to get to the larger station as the bus service is not reliable.  I live a 3 minute walk away from a station with no passenger service which connects to Manchester Victoria & Stockport - if only there were services. People will use a car when the local services are disjointed, not frequent enough or non- existent.



PaulC

John Holmes - forcing drivers out of their cars only benefits rail passengers where regular services exist!! The network needs more connectivity, first, then your tax drivers more.



Alex Nelson

I have no doubt that substantial fares increases in the present delicate situation will just result in a massive DROP in total revenue.  Rail fares are price elastic.   So it can hardly be the solution.



Ben Walsh

I agree with John Holmes - CARROT before STICK BUT make the CARROT happen quickly!!



Stephen Waring

Taktfahrplan Nord England?!



David Hagerty

The Transpennine Route Upgrade was first announced in the Autumn Statement 2011, and originally clearly stated to include full electrification Manchester-Leeds-York. It has been re-announced several times since then, but to date only a small part of the total scheme was approved.
At the stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield (Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite) we have been asking ever since the scheme was first announced whether it would deliver for us the modest aspirations of 2 trains per hour and full disabled access at all our stations. In 2018 we asked that question to Chris Grayling in person, and David Hoggarth must be fed up with us asking that same question. Since we have never been given an answer, we are asking that question again.
To summarise the question, directed principally at Network Rail, will TRU deliver 2 trains per hour and full disabled access at all four stations between Stalybridge & Huddersfield? If so, when?
David Hagerty, Slaithwaite & Marsden Action on Rail Transport



PaulC

Past patronage data to improve services is a failed model, when connectivity is poor, and thousands of new homes are being built across the north.   This creates dormitory towns where people jump in their car to go to work in the big city!   Those new residents to an area can not access usable services for work, education or leisure as they do not exist.  The model to create additional and new services needs a big rethink!



James Ford

If we are going back to interchange rather than direct, then we have to have GUARANTEED connections. When Southport trains were briefly exiled from Piccadilly after the timetable debacle, we never got connections kept as the Wigan connection was put in front of the slow freight and lost 10 minutes - and the connection at Salford Crescent!



Me

Total Agreement on even better passenger info. Standing at [] helping people on Journey Makers - no good seeing a list of destinations where people need intermediate station or connection.



David Carlisle

Planning for the future will demand a flexible approach.  Where Beeching got it wrong was in the direct car versus train equation.  Not knowing what the impact of a move away from diesel & petrol cars will have brings uncertainty, hence the need for flexibility.  Community stations may indeed have more important than commuting stations, so it is vital not to let a modern-day Beeching threaten them and the lines serving them with closure.



John Holmes

When are we going to get a desi on reopening Skipton to Colne?



Stephen Waring

We need to convince the Treasury that rebuilding rail must be part of building back better. Public transport will always need taxpayer-support. So it should serve the whole community which means having reliable comprehensive services and attractive fares. We also need to get them to support rolling electrification based on TDNS and Northern Sparks with smart engineering to reduce capital cost.



Kim

So true Paul C we have 3 large mills converted, 2 3 housing estates built and house building next door to our station that has no service - since our passenger service closed there must be at least another 1,000 homes built locally. There is no recognition of this as he says.



James Ford

Are there any roads that make a profit?



PaulC

Will any unanswered questions be collated, summarised and responded to for delegates on this conference?



Tom Irvin

You should come to Cleethorpes if the Scots don't let you in Tony. I'm sure TPE will bring you.



John Holmes

HS2 to Leeds needs to open at the same time as Manchester



David Carlisle

That is a genuine offer from Karen - she is currently working with our community group, the Friends of Buxton Station to promote our community line.



Kim

I'm not worried about HS2 - I'll be dead by the time it gets to Manchester - if it ever does.  If it does not get to Manchester all it will have done for the North is stop further development of stations like Victoria and Stockport. I would have been more confident about HS2 completion if it had started at Edinburgh. The costs are already prohibitive



Piers Elias Esk Valley Railway North Yorks (No)

There has been talk of testing hydrogen trains on the Esk Valley Line (Middlesbrough to Whitby) and we have a ready source of hydrogen at Redcar - how close to reality is this?



Trevor Bishop

will the Hydrogen needed for these trains come carbon free production methods?



John Holmes

Hydrogen is expensive to produce and takes up a lot of space on the trains.



Stephen Waring

Eminox does not stop carbon dioxide (CO2). Last clean mile does not stop CO2. Traction decarbonisation means stopping producing CO2.  Batteries good for bridging gaps in electrification. Hydrogen trains will have a place but will be limited. Hydrogen is only zero-carbon if made from renewable electricity (or you can bury the CO2 and cross fingers for future generation). Scottish rail decarbonisation report quotes energy efficiency of overhead electric as 83%, battery traisn 71%, hydrogen 30% - which will improve bit still be way behind pure electric. We can not afford to waste energy even of it comes from renewables. I congratulate Porterbrook on their work but the major wor required is electerifucation



Stephen Waring

Eminox does not stop carbon dioxide (CO2). Last clean mile does not stop CO2. Traction decarbonisation means stopping producing CO2.  Batteries good for bridging gaps in electrification. Hydrogen trains will have a place but will be limited. Hydrogen is only zero-carbon if made from renewable electricity (or you can bury the CO2 and cross fingers for future generation). Scottish rail decarbonisation report quotes energy efficiency of overhead electric as 83%, battery traisn 71%, hydrogen 30% - which will improve but still be way behind pure electric. We can not afford to waste energy even of it comes from renewables. I congratulate Porterbrook on their work but the major job required is electrification
as set out in TDNS.



Tom Irvin

On the subject of hydrogen, is there any progress on the proposal mentioned in a past TfN document to trial a hydrogen unit on the line between Cleethorpes and Barton on Humber?



stephen.forde

Surprised that there's been no mention of light rail. metro frequencies address some of the concerns over interchanges, the ability to escape the constraints of the traditional network and reduced operating costs will make lower density future travel more viable.



Simon Shrouder

BIG THANKS TO ALL!!!



Stephen Waring

Tony M, well said! Electric is reliable, and low cost. The Treasury will get its money back in the long term. Oh, and BR electrified the ECML from it's own resoyrces



David Sidebottom

Bye everybody. Been a useful and informative session and lots of good chat and questions. Sorry have to leave but other meetings to join now. Take care and stay safe. Contact me at david.sidebottom@transportfocus.org.uk if I can help with anything. David



Stephen Waring

Tony M, well said! Electric is reliable, and low cost. The Treasury will get its money back in the long term. Oh, and BR electrified the ECML from it's own resources way back in the 1970s/80s. As always thanks to David H, and thanks to all for a stimulating morning!



Terry

Best wishes to everyone and many thanks to the panel and host.



James Ford

I'm hoping that we could get the questions about Reversing Beeching answered later



Kim

Yes thanks to all the rail workers who have kept going over the last few months



John Holmes

Happy Christmas and a Covid Free New Year



Trevor Bishop

Why were they (drivers) sharing a mess room not socially distant that meant they all were isolating, I have worked with colleagues who have tested positive and not needed to isolate?


There's no point in a national railcard - if it were ever agreed, far simpler to just cut fares by 1/3.....(or slightly less allowing for the income generated by the purchase price)

It depends on the price of the railcard ... and (and the two are related) the discount level on purchasing tickets.

Also offers a good revenue protection tool - with card withdrawn from people who are found to be intentionally breaking fare rules.

Was commenting with current general railcard price of ?30, discount of generally, 1/3.

Respectfully, I disagree. The cost of running the scheme needs deducting from the railcard income too, so you may as well simply cut fares for all by between 25% & 33%. As discounts are not allowed against seasons, this would actually benefit more people.