Title: Steam engine 34067 'Tangmere' - merged posts Post by: Phil on March 30, 2008, 12:13:48 For those of you of a nostalgic bent - West Country class 34067 Tangmere is due to arrive in Salisbury from Waterloo at 12.30 on 17th April. Due to arrive Westbury at around 13:20 (after taking on water), Bath at 1400ish and Bristol 1430ish.
Scheduled to leave Bristol Temple Meads station at 1733 picking up from Bath at 1750hrs. Back to Salisbury at around 1915hrs then on to Waterloo again. Title: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 14:23:58 RAIB (http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/150307_wootton_bassett.cfm) reports
Quote RAIB is investigating an incident that occurred at 17:25 hrs on Saturday 7 March 2015, in which train reporting number 1Z67, the 16:35 hrs service from Bristol Temple Meads to Southend, passed a signal at danger on the approach to Wootton Bassett junction, Wiltshire. The train subsequently came to a stand across the junction. The signal was being maintained at danger in order to protect the movement of a previous train. However, at the time that the SPAD occurred, this previous train had already passed through the junction and was continuing on its journey. No injuries, damage or derailment occurred as a result of the SPAD. Wootton Bassett junction is situated between Chippenham and Swindon stations on the Great Western main line and is the point at which the line from Bristol, via Bath, converges with the line from South Wales. It is a double track high speed junction which also features low speed crossovers between the up and down main lines (see figure below for detail). The junction is protected from trains approaching on the up main from Chippenham by signal number SN45, which is equipped with both the Automatic Warning System (AWS) and the Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS). This signal is preceded on the up main by signal SN43, which is also equipped with AWS and TPWS. The maximum permitted line speed for trains approaching the junction from this direction is normally 125 mph. However, on 7 March, a temporary speed restriction (TSR) of 85 mph was in place on the approach to signal SN45. A temporary AWS magnet had been placed on the approach to signal SN43 to warn drivers of this TSR. The train which passed signal SN45 at danger consisted of steam locomotive number 34067 ^Tangmere^, and its tender, coupled to 13 coaches. The locomotive is equipped with AWS and TPWS equipment. The RAIB^s preliminary examination has shown that, at around 17:24 hrs, train 1Z67 was approaching signal SN43 at 59 mph, when it passed over the temporary AWS magnet associated with the TSR. This created both an audible and visual warning in the locomotive^s cab. However, as the driver did not acknowledge this warning within 2.7 seconds, the AWS system on the locomotive automatically applied the train^s brakes. This brake application should have resulted in the train being brought to a stand. In these circumstances, the railway rule book requires that the driver immediately contact the signaller. The RAIB has found evidence that the driver of 1Z67 did not bring the train to a stand and contact the signaller after experiencing this brake application. Evidence shows that the driver and fireman instead took an action which cancelled the effect of the AWS braking demand after a short period and a reduction in train speed of only around 8 mph. The action taken also had the effect of making subsequent AWS or TPWS brake demands ineffective. Shortly after passing the AWS magnet for the TSR, the train passed signal SN43, which was at caution. Although the AWS warning associated with this signal was acknowledged by the driver, the speed of the train was not then reduced appropriately on the approach to the next signal, SN45, which was at danger. Because of the earlier actions of the driver and fireman, the TPWS equipment associated with signal SN45 was unable to control the speed of the train on approach to this signal. As train 1Z67 approached signal SN45, the driver saw that it was at danger and fully applied the train^s brakes. However, by this point there was insufficient distance remaining to bring the train to a stand before it reached the junction beyond SN45. The train subsequently stopped, standing on both the crossovers and the up and down Badminton lines, at around 17:26 hrs. The signalling system had already set the points at the junction in anticipation of the later movement of 1Z67 across it; this meant that no damage was sustained to either the train or the infrastructure as a result of the SPAD. The RAIB has found no evidence of any malfunction of the signalling, AWS or TPWS equipment involved in the incident. The RAIB^s investigation will consider the factors that contributed to signal SN45 being passed at danger, including the position of the temporary AWS magnet associated with the TSR. The investigation will also examine the factors that influenced the actions of the train crew, the adequacy of the safety systems installed on the locomotive and the safety management arrangements. (http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Wooton%20Bassett.jpg) Quote Wootton Bassett Wootton Bassett junction in 2012 - the lines shown from left to right are the Up Goods, Up Badminton, Down Badminton, Up Main and Down Main (image courtesy of Network Rail) (http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Wootton%20Bassett_cms.jpg) Quote Wootton Bassett diagram A diagram of the layout of Wootton Bassett junction - note that some features have been omitted for clarity (not to scale) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2015, 14:45:29 I was initially confused when I saw the email alert summary for this investigation in my inbox. A direct service from Bristol TM to Southend? Only on reading further and remembering being told about it on the day did I realise it was a railtour.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: IndustryInsider on March 27, 2015, 14:47:14 It's unbelievable that crews still take chances with AWS/TPWS, but sadly some still do.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: patch38 on March 27, 2015, 14:50:07 What is the procedure for a SPAD under those circumstances? Is the driver immediately relieved from duty? If that's the case, where do you find a mainline-qualified steam driver at short notice? :o
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2015, 15:17:51 Don't these long distance steam railtours usually run with a relief crew? There always seem to be a lot of boiler suited folk around the engine when I see them at Bristol TM.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: LiskeardRich on March 27, 2015, 16:48:00 I was initially confused when I saw the email alert summary for this investigation in my inbox. A direct service from Bristol TM to Southend? Only on reading further and remembering being told about it on the day did I realise it was a railtour. I was confused further by reports of the fireman. Then the penny dropped!Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: eightf48544 on March 27, 2015, 16:52:07 I thought that there was usually a Motive Power Inspector (or modern equivalent) on the foootplate but there is no reference to one in the report.
Most of the boiler suited people refered to by BNM are support staff to coal and water the loco not spare drivers. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on March 27, 2015, 22:44:59 From memory the train was held just outside Swindon station for about 10 minutes before continuing. I only know because I could see the steam over the tops of the houses before hearing the train whistle and seeing the steam move along. So if a relief crew did take over they were found in pretty short order, so likely to have been on the train.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2015, 23:20:35 I suppose for a relatively long journey such as Southend to Bristol and return, along with a loco change each way at Southall, it's quite possible there were two each of driver, fireman and guard booked anyway. Nearly 5 hours each way, plus those loco changes*, is a lot for one crew to do in a day.
*61306 LNER Thompson Class B1 'Mayflower' Southend-Southall-Southend. 34067 SR Battle of Britain Class 'Tangmere' Southall-Bristol-Southall. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 27, 2015, 23:45:58 ... I could see the steam over the tops of the houses before hearing the train whistle and seeing the steam move along. You can't see steam: what you see is water vapour. :P ::) ;D Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on March 27, 2015, 23:52:26 Or was it smoke! ;D
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 28, 2015, 00:01:53 Much more likely! ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Alan Pettitt on March 28, 2015, 15:59:49 You can't see steam: what you see is water vapour. :P ::) ;D I doubt that you can see water vapour either, one of its properties being that it is invisible to the naked eye, however it does become visible when it condenses into clouds of liquid droplets, commonly called steam (although, as already noticed this is a misnomer). Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Cynthia on March 29, 2015, 13:38:33 A little item that may be of interest to the other steam buffs on this Forum:
From Newbury Weekly News 19th March: "Train buffs are chuffed - the steam train season has started. Hungerford Camera Club member and steam fan Tony Bartlett said: "The first train of the year came through Newbury* and I was on Hungerford Common to get a shot of regular locomotive 'Tangmere' at the head of affairs." Mr. Bartlett also snapped 'Mayflower' as it passed the common. Built for the London and North Eastern Railway, 61306 Mayflower is one of two surviving B1 class locomotives, designed as mixed traffic locomotives capable of hauling express passenger trains as well as freight traffic. Mayflower has two cylinders, six driving wheels, a firebox grate area of 30 sq ft and can operate at 75mph." *Unfortunately the article doesn't say WHEN the engine came through Newbury. Luckily it was a pre-April Fools' Day issue, or I might have been tempted to wonder whether they were extracting the Michael with a mid-sixties item! There was a nice little photograph of the Mayflower accompanying the article, unfortunately when I went onto the NWN website this morning I couldn't find it. Sorry folks. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on March 29, 2015, 13:46:49 Suspect it was the Cathedrals Express on the 7th March which was later involved in the SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15554.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15554.0) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Adelante_CCT on March 29, 2015, 13:51:29 Yes it was, it ran via Newbury outwards and then encountered the problem via Swindon on the Return leg
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Cynthia on March 29, 2015, 14:01:57 Does this SPAD raise some difficult questions about steam locomotive drivers on main lines?
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on March 29, 2015, 14:03:02 Think that had better wait until the RAIB publish their report.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 29, 2015, 20:53:39 In the interests of clarity and continuity, I've now moved / merged both topics relating to the same incident here. ;)
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on March 30, 2015, 10:11:54 The train involved with the SPAD was Tangmere on a Bristol to Southend trip. Has Southend got a Cathedral?
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on March 30, 2015, 10:14:17 you've got some sorting of threads/responses to do now :-)
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Tim on March 30, 2015, 11:52:43 Does this SPAD raise some difficult questions about steam locomotive drivers on main lines? agree with bobm that we should wait for the report before saying too much on driver actions. But my assumption would be that the people who drive steam locos on the main line are usually also qualified to drive modern traction on the main line as well. They will be people who work for a TOC or FOC who have driving steam locos as an extra string to their bow rather than a separate category of drivers with very little mainline experience. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: thetrout on March 30, 2015, 14:42:06 Has Southend got a Cathedral? No it hasn't. Although Southend-on-Sea has applied for City Status. It has yet to gain it and as such remains a (very large) Town. It does have 4 Railway Stations however: Southend Central, Southend East, Southend Victoria and Southend Airport. Prittlewell could also be debated as a 5th Railway Station for Southend. As this is the only Railway Station between Southend Airport and Southend Victoria ::) Now how many stations connected to the main line network does Wells have? Which is a City ::) ;D :P Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on March 30, 2015, 14:50:06 Suspect it was the Cathedrals Express on the 7th March which was later involved in the SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction. http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15554.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15554.0) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 02, 2015, 18:41:47 All west coast railway operations have now been suspended because of this for at least six weeks.
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/statement-west-coast-railways-suspension-notice Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: PhilWakely on April 02, 2015, 19:41:40 All west coast railway operations have now been suspended because of this for at least six weeks. Could have some far-reaching consequences looking here http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs15.htm (http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs15.htm). I guess a number of the tours will just be re-scheduled, but I notice that the 9-day 'Great Britain VIII' railtour is using WCRC staff and stock and that is currently scheduled for 28th April to 6th May, which may not be quite so easy to re-schedule. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on April 02, 2015, 19:54:22 Quote from westcoast facebook https://www.facebook.com/westcoast.railways?fref=ts
Quote Network Rail and West Coast Railways West Coast Railways are working hard to reverse the current suspension imposed by Network Rail by fully satisfying their concerns. Passengers booked to travel with West Coast Railways and on their associated trips should not be concerned, if necessary West Coast Railways will charter the service of another licensed operator using the same traditional carriages and trips will be unaffected, but West Coast Railways hope this won^t be necessary and trust any issues will be resolved to the satisfaction of network rail. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on April 02, 2015, 21:57:37 Just one minute earlier and there could have been a collision with a FGW HST, according to RAIL magazine.
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/04/02/west-coast-railways-operating-licence-suspended Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on April 02, 2015, 22:19:21 Fifteen seconds earlier and there could well have been a derailment as the points were, until then, still set for the HST.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on April 03, 2015, 00:59:52 For those interested, a link to the PDF download of the full suspension document from NR to WCR:
To download PDF immediately http://cdn.prgloo.com/media/download/b7098d6b804f4b85b49fd8581943c40e (http://cdn.prgloo.com/media/download/b7098d6b804f4b85b49fd8581943c40e) Link to document page http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/wcr-suspension-notice (http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/wcr-suspension-notice) Doesn't make for good reading from WCR's perspective, it seems there are a lot of shortcomings in their operation and it appears they also had a serious falling out with NR earlier this year. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 03, 2015, 01:25:42 Does this SPAD raise some difficult questions about steam locomotive drivers on main lines? Erm ... Yes. :o ::) :-X Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on April 03, 2015, 06:45:30 Just one minute earlier and there could have been a collision with a FGW HST, according to RAIL magazine. http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/04/02/west-coast-railways-operating-licence-suspended I was brought up in South East London, and my local line passed the site of a SPAD accident a couple of years before we moved there, also involving a "Battle of Britain" light pacific. That shows what can happen when the line beyond (and just beyond a junction) doesn't happen to be clear. Whilst I am reminded, that does not infer any suggestions of why the SPAD (it seems commonly accepted and published as that) happened at Wootton Bassett - we must leave that for the investigators, but it does show the need for seriousness in such cases. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Lewisham1957.pdf Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: broadgage on April 03, 2015, 17:21:59 Earlier reports on the BBC website stated, most misleadingly, that "steam trains" had been banned from the national network, rather than the fact that one operator of steam, and other locomotives had been banned.
I emailed them to point out this factual error. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: LiskeardRich on April 03, 2015, 17:56:01 Earlier reports on the BBC website stated, most misleadingly, that "steam trains" had been banned from the national network, rather than the fact that one operator of steam, and other locomotives had been banned. I emailed them to point out this factual error. The article also says they operate in the North of England. BBC confusing them with Pacers? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on April 03, 2015, 18:27:03 Does this SPAD raise some difficult questions about steam locomotive drivers on main lines? Erm ... Yes. :o ::) :-X It will effect the smaller train operators, the NR letter in my view makes quite clear there is an expectation for such companies to have very rigorous management and training process in place. The Office of Rail Regulation or as it is of the 1st April 2015 Office of Rail and Road could seek a prosecution under the Health and Safety at Work Act perhaps under section 3 "it is the duty of all employers and self-employed persons to ensure, as far as is reasonably practicable the safety of persons other than employees, for example, contractors, visitors, the general public and clients" and section 7 "all employees have a duty while at work to: Take reasonable care for the health and safety of him/herself and of other persons who may be affected by his/her acts or omissions at work; and Co-operate with employers or other persons so far as is necessary to enable them to perform their duties or requirements under the Act". Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on April 03, 2015, 23:02:25 Had this email from WCR
Quote Dear Fellow Traveller Passenger safety is our number one priority. You may have read or seen news relating to Network Rail (owners of the lines used by West Coast Railways) and West Coast Railways. A recent breach of safety regulations involving one of our trains crossing a red light has lead to discussions by both parties to establish how this happened and more importantly the preventative measures in place to ensure it can^t happen again. Although no one was injured in any way West Coast Railways consider this to be sufficient to carry out a full internal enquiry with the support of Network Rail and at this time will not be running trains under their current used licence. However all trips remain unaffected and will run as normal under licence of another operator, using the same vintage Mk2 carriages, passengers will not be affected and all schedules including the Jacobite will continue as normal, should there be any changes to services passengers will be notified in advance. Safety is a primary importance to both West Coast Railways and Network Rail and as such both parties MUST be absolutely satisfied with the safety measures in place to prevent any such future happenings, through continued discussions and when both parties are satisfied it is hoped that West Coast Railways will resume operation under licence. Should you have any questions regarding this please email bookings@westcoastrailways.net Many Thanks West Coast Railways Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: LiskeardRich on April 03, 2015, 23:17:51 Sounds a pointless ban if they can just borrow somebody else's licence.
Would using somebody else's licence mean they need staff from the licence holder? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ellendune on April 04, 2015, 08:18:19 Sounds a pointless ban if they can just borrow somebody else's licence. Would using somebody else's licence mean they need staff from the licence holder? I hope so or there would be no point. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: stuving on April 04, 2015, 08:56:37 Sounds a pointless ban if they can just borrow somebody else's licence. Would using somebody else's licence mean they need staff from the licence holder? I took that to mean that WCR would become a chartering tour company, like some that WCR operates trains for, though one that can supply its own carriages and (I guess) most passenger-facing staff. The new operator's own licence would only be valid using its own safety and staff management system, hence its own managers and drivers and most likely a (safety) guard too. If that restricts what they can drive it might alter the locomotives that could be used too. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Network SouthEast on April 04, 2015, 11:00:12 To some of us this news about WCRC is not surprising at all.
I'll be careful about saying much more until the RAIB have done their work. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on April 04, 2015, 11:25:16 To some of us this news about WCRC is not surprising at all. I'll be careful about saying much more until the RAIB have done their work. If you read between the lines a little bit, it's quite clear from the Network Rail license withdrawal document I linked to a few posts back that there are some pretty significant issues! Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TaplowGreen on April 05, 2015, 09:46:36 Made page 3 of yesterday's Daily Telegraph, happy to scan the article and upload it if anyone would like to read it (when I'm back at work on Tuesday!)
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: BerkshireBugsy on April 05, 2015, 11:57:39 Made page 3 of yesterday's Daily Telegraph, happy to scan the article and upload it if anyone would like to read it (when I'm back at work on Tuesday!) Back at work Tuesday TG? Does this involve train travel ? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: LiskeardRich on April 05, 2015, 16:32:13 To some of us this news about WCRC is not surprising at all. I'll be careful about saying much more until the RAIB have done their work. If you read between the lines a little bit, it's quite clear from the Network Rail license withdrawal document I linked to a few posts back that there are some pretty significant issues! Agree it's pretty obvious from that document that this is the most recent in a line of issues. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TaplowGreen on April 05, 2015, 21:09:34 Made page 3 of yesterday's Daily Telegraph, happy to scan the article and upload it if anyone would like to read it (when I'm back at work on Tuesday!) Back at work Tuesday TG? Does this involve train travel ? oo-er.....good point! I won't say which Tuesday until I check the News in the morning! :-\ Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Surrey 455 on April 05, 2015, 21:39:37 Made page 3 of yesterday's Daily Telegraph, happy to scan the article and upload it if anyone would like to read it (when I'm back at work on Tuesday!) Would that be this article? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11512929/Train-company-that-owns-real-life-Hogwarts-Express-suspended-from-railways-over-safety-concerns.html Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TaplowGreen on April 06, 2015, 09:03:01 That's the one!
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on April 06, 2015, 09:42:17 Made page 3 of yesterday's Daily Telegraph, happy to scan the article and upload it if anyone would like to read it (when I'm back at work on Tuesday!) Would that be this article? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11512929/Train-company-that-owns-real-life-Hogwarts-Express-suspended-from-railways-over-safety-concerns.html That's the one! I am finding it very difficult to understand where the Telegraph is coming from editorially regarding Network Rail 2 weeks ago they wanted NR in private hands to make the books balance there was not mention then about NR role in the safety of train operation and now the Telegraph have an article about the safe operation of a private enterprise operating on the National network Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on April 06, 2015, 12:05:49 You know ignorant journalists - they won't have realised those two points don't align
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: paul7575 on April 06, 2015, 13:14:50 You know ignorant journalists - they won't have realised those two points don't align Probably why 'correspondent' (adjective) isn't heard so much nowadays then? Paul Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Red Squirrel on April 06, 2015, 14:23:10 You know ignorant journalists - they won't have realised those two points don't align Don't they? Why? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: trainer on April 06, 2015, 19:02:37 You know ignorant journalists - they won't have realised those two points don't align Don't they? Why? They only need to fill space at a price that doesn't frighten their advertisers or proprietors. Opinions are swiftly given and forgotten as is noted frequently on this board. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Red Squirrel on April 06, 2015, 19:44:20 Sorry, perhaps I was too terse. What I meant to ask was: What are the points, and why don't they align?
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on April 07, 2015, 10:48:57 I am finding it very difficult to understand where the Telegraph is coming from editorially regarding Network Rail 2 weeks ago they wanted NR in private hands to make the books balance there was not mention then about NR role in the safety of train operation and now the Telegraph have an article about the safe operation of a private enterprise operating on the National network Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Red Squirrel on April 07, 2015, 10:55:00 Now you've gone and mistaken 'repeating' for 'explaining'!
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on April 07, 2015, 11:00:44 I am finding it very difficult to understand where the Telegraph is coming from editorially regarding Network Rail 2 weeks ago they wanted NR in private hands to make the books balance there was not mention then about NR role in the safety of train operation and now the Telegraph have an article about the safe operation of a private enterprise operating on the National network Those two points, and I can see the discrepancy? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on April 07, 2015, 19:41:06 Network Rail aren't the safety regulator for the rail network, that responsibility lies with the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) under the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 (ROGS), which is subordinated from the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. This gives the ORR to the power to bring prosecutions for breaches of safety on the railways rather than the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
I'd be pretty confident that the ORR are investigating this matter. Network Rail of course have a duty to ensure their assets are used in a safe manner and if they have concerns are within their rights, under the terms of Track Access Contracts, to suspend a Train Operator from access to all or part of the network. The rules are the same whether that's a franchised TOC, freight operator, open access operator, or charter company. This isn't the first time West Coast Railways have been suspended from operating on the network because Network Rail had concerns about WCR operating in a safe manner. In August 2014 they suspended WCR's access (for steam locomotives) to the London North Eastern route following a lineside fire. The fire of itself wasn't the sole reason for the suspension, it was Network Rail's concerns over WCR's Safety Management Systems. WCR, on being suspended, took the dispute to an Access Dispute Adjudication (ADA), being quite bullish in their claim and dismissive of NR's defence, seeking compensation for what they saw as an unjust punishment. WCR's claim was thoroughly disabused by the adjuducator. My reading of the documents is that WCR's Safety Management Systems were sadly lacking, their attitude to Network Rail was combative rather than collaberative, and their chairman in particular came across as rather cavalier. Read all about that dispute here: http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/New%20ADC%20Web/Access%20Dispute%20Adjudications/ADA%20determinations.htm It's ADA20 on that list. The .pdf on the left is the adjudicator's determination. The links on the right are the claim to the ADA by WCR, the responses from Network Rail in defence to that claim, the response by WCR to NR's defence, as well as case management directions from the adjudicator. Fascinating reading. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: SandTEngineer on April 07, 2015, 21:49:15 Slight correction to that BNM. The ORR is now officially called the Office of Rail and Road :o
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on April 20, 2015, 22:16:16 Things have escalated by the ORR http://railwayherald.com/uknews/orr-considers-revoking-wcr-safety-certificate
ORR looking at revoking the safety certificate Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on April 20, 2015, 22:27:57 I'd imagine FGW, whose HST came very close to colliding with the WCRC charter, will be one of the parties making strong representations to the ORR consultation.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: BerkshireBugsy on April 21, 2015, 06:34:37 I'd imagine FGW, whose HST came very close to colliding with the WCRC charter, will be one of the parties making strong representations to the ORR consultation. Out of curiosity how close was the HST ? Thankfully there were no injuries or loss of life but I guess this could have been a lot worse Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on April 21, 2015, 08:57:11 The timings at Wootton Bassett Junction show that the HST passed the junction at 1724 1/4. The steam charter passed over the junction at 1725 1/2. As already mentioned the route for the charter was only set around 15 seconds before it fouled the junction and before the signal was cleared.
The respective timings for the two trains were: HST, 1C76 1528 Swansea - London Paddington: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C26694/2015/03/07/advanced Charter, 1Z67 Bristol TM - Southend East: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55252/2015/03/07/advanced Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 25, 2015, 21:40:35 From the Western Gazette (http://www.westerngazette.co.uk/Criminal-investigation-steam-special-overshot-red/story-26389042-detail/story.html):
Quote Criminal investigation into steam special which overshot red light on main line An incident in which a steam train passed through a red signal and just missed a High Speed Train on the main line in Wiltshire is now the subject of a criminal investigation. Rail investigators from the Office of Rail and Road, the Government's railway safety body, are understood to have found "significant weaknesses" in the safety management systems at West Coast Railways after investigating the incident which happened near Royal Wootton Bassett. On March 7, a steam train on an excursion passed through a red light and only narrowly missed colliding with a passing InterCity 125 train. The Cathedrals Express service, a special train pulled by Battle of Britain class steam locomotive Tangmere number 34067, overshot the red light by 700 yards at a junction where the tracks to the West split into the line which continues to Chippenham and Bristol Temple Meads and the one for Bristol Parkway and South Wales. The steam special was travelling from Temple Meads to Southend and is thought to have narrowly missed the First Great Western 3.28pm service from Swansea to Paddington, which had just gone through. It came to rest at the Wootton Bassett junction just one minute after the previous train had passed. Network Rail consider the incident the "most serious" of its kind to have happened on the West's railways in recent years. Investigators have now decided that they will take matters further with an inquiry to see if health-and-safety laws have been breached and whether a prosecution in the courts could follow. Network Rail withdrew temporarily the licence it gave to West Coast Railways, the company that runs the steam trains and operates the tours, to run trains on the railway network. It is the first time any action of that kind had been taken against a company operating trains on Britain's privatised railways. Now the Office of Rail and Road is considering whether or not to revoke the company's licence completely. This is alongside the body deciding whether to mount a prosecution under health-and-safety legislation. A spokesman for the Office of the Rail Regulator said: "The rail regulator has notified the West Coast Railway Company that it is reviewing the company's safety certification ^ needed to operate trains on the rail network. Our initial investigation has found significant weaknesses in the company's safety management systems. ORR is carrying out further assessments to determine whether health and safety laws were breached, and the enforcement action required," he added. A spokesman for Network Rail said: "This decision has not been taken lightly. We have set out a number of actions to address the safety concerns raised and will continue to work with West Coast Railways to ensure their services can run safely in the future." Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on May 08, 2015, 15:04:25 Network Rail have revoked the suspension of West Coast Railway Company's operating licence as of 0001 Friday 8th May 2015.
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/statement-network-rail-revoke-west-coast-railways-suspension-notice Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: eightf48544 on May 08, 2015, 16:59:34 I'm very surprised in view of the ongoing RAIB investgation and possible crimal proceedings mentioned in CFN's post from the Western Gazette.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on May 08, 2015, 17:36:26 I have had an email from West Coast Railways saying that, as a result of the Network Rail announcement, the Jacobite service between Fort William to Maillaig will start on Monday as planned.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ellendune on May 08, 2015, 19:25:37 I have had an email from West Coast Railways saying that, as a result of the Network Rail announcement, the Jacobite service between Fort William to Maillaig will start on Monday as planned. From NR's letter (http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/wcr-revocation-070515): Quote We welcome the commitment West Coast Railways has made to improving safety management; the changes to your Safety Management System (SMS); and the three new roles (Director/General Manager, Head of Safety and Non-Executive Director) being introduced to strengthen safety leadership and corporate governance. We note your appointment before services recommence of your new Non-Executive Director and Alex McGregor of Lloyds Register as interim Head of Safety pending the permanent appointment; and for the ongoing engagement of First Class Partnerships to ensure that changes to the SMS are implemented effectively. We recognise and welcome that you intend to put in place a phased return of services, to allow you and your most experienced staff to implement your new procedures before use with a wider range of services. With the new appointments I would think they would find it difficult not to revoke the suspension. The new roleswill be costing them dearly I suspect though and they cannot afford to upset any of them as if they feel they have to resign WCR can probably say goodbye to their operating licence. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on May 08, 2015, 21:25:57 I'm very surprised in view of the ongoing RAIB investgation and possible crimal proceedings mentioned in CFN's post from the Western Gazette. My personal view on this That investigation is into one event, the criminal proceedings are only a possibility so working on the bases of British Law of innocent until proven otherwise. NR once satisfied that the conditions they had set out had been met are obliged to reinstate the access not to do so could be a breach of contract Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: patch38 on May 11, 2015, 09:33:02 Comment from the BBC's transport correspondent, Richard Westcott:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32622534 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32622534) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: BerkshireBugsy on May 11, 2015, 10:28:43 Out of curiosity can someone tell me if it possible for the driver of (for example) an HST to override the fail safe mechanisms?
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: IndustryInsider on May 11, 2015, 11:13:42 Yes, all the safety systems can be isolated, so that if they fail the train can be moved under special conditions.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: BerkshireBugsy on May 12, 2015, 15:39:39 Apologies if I seem to be OT but is there a connection between the company involved in this spad incident and the depot east of Southall station? Today was the first time in a month I have made the journey East of Reading and noticed that some of the maroon coaches had been daubed with graffiti. Quite a sad site as they often looked pristine .
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Oxonhutch on May 12, 2015, 15:45:05 I just noticed the vandalism myself this morning. Very sad.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 22, 2015, 23:20:31 From the Western Daily Press (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Improvement-Notice-Hogwarts-Express-operator/story-26553698-detail/story.html):
Quote Improvement Notice for Hogwarts Express operator after 'nearly Britain's worst train crash' (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276309/Article/images/26553698/10122784-large.jpg) The Battle of Britain class 34067 Tangmere locomotive, which failed to stop at a red light in Wiltshire Rail safety police have issued a formal Improvement Notice on a heritage steam train operator ^ and could still prosecute them ^ after what would have been Britain's worst rail tragedy in generations was narrowly avoided in Wiltshire. The Office of Rail and Road's official improvement notice order comes after the rail safety watchdog completed their investigation into West Coast Railways, which operated a steam train that was seconds from crashing into a high speed intercity train at a junction on the Great Western mainline in Wiltshire. The incident, which happened back in March, was deemed so serious it could still lead to a criminal health and safety prosecution against the heritage train company, which operates a host of steam trains, including the Hogwarts Express. The ORR said the case against West Coast Railways was still being investigated, and the Improvement Notice would not preclude any future prosecution. The Improvement Notice forces West Coast Railways to tighten up its safety procedures, and adhere to a strict regime of notifying the regulator of everything it does. "Safety on the railways is ORR's absolute priority," said Ian Prosser, the director of railway safety at the ORR. "Following the serious incident where a West Coast Railway Company (WCRC) train passed a signal warning at danger near Wootton Bassett Junction on March 7, ORR inspectors have carried out an extensive investigation into the standards of safety on their passenger services. "The regulator's initial investigation found shortfalls in the WCRC's safety management system and in response the company has introduced enhanced safety procedures and appropriate staff competence regimes. ORR inspectors have been on site examining the new safety arrangements and inspecting WCRC passenger services to ensure that the necessary changes are being fully implemented by the company. "ORR has issued an Improvement Notice to ensure WCRC delivers further improvements. This will ensure workers are provided with suitable training and effective systems to control safety risks and have clearly defined performance indicators in place. ORR will closely monitor the company and will not hesitate to step in if any non-compliance with the Improvement Notice is found," he added. West Coast had been suspended from operating any steam train on Britain's railways for around seven weeks after the incident, but had its licence restored recently. The incident on March 7 was described as 'a minute away from one of the country's worst train crashes'. At around 5.30pm, a steam train heading from Bristol to Essex failed to stop at a red light at the junction near Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire where the Temple Meads and Parkway branches of the Great Western mainline meet on the way to London. The steam train ^ which had hundreds of 'leisure passengers' on board - braked eventually, and stopped right on the junction, just seconds after the First Great Western service from Swansea to Paddington ^ with around 400 people on board ^ went through at around 70mph. "This was potentially a catastrophe," said Nigel Harris, the editor of Rail Magazine. "We were a minute away from a high-speed train hitting a steam train." Edit to add Picture here is from our Phil Wakely, reproduced on the forum with his blessing Further edit: Thanks, grahame. ;) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on October 19, 2015, 12:10:15 An update to the RAIB's investigation into this incident has been published today, 19th October 2015.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/469145/151019_Wootton_Bassett_web_update.pdf Sobering reading. It's not the RAIB's job to apportion blame, but it's quite clear from reading this interim report where the blame lies. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: BerkshireBugsy on October 20, 2015, 09:14:58 An update to the RAIB's investigation into this incident has been published today, 19th October 2015. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/469145/151019_Wootton_Bassett_web_update.pdf Sobering reading. It's not the RAIB's job to apportion blame, but it's quite clear from reading this interim report where the blame lies. Many thanks for sharing BnM..although I'm no expert in this field I was able to understand the content. I must admit when I got to point 10 I had an inkling as to where this may be going... Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Trowres on October 20, 2015, 20:42:22 The matters relating to the TPWS isolation are undoubtedly of much concern, but it is debatable whether working TPWS would have halted the train clear of the junction in the circumstances described. I will be interested to see what RAIB has to say about the confusion potential of the closely-spaced TSR and signal AWS warning magnets, and the relationship of this to the driver failing to see SN43.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on October 20, 2015, 21:26:20 It's precisely because a signal may be visually missed that systems such as AWS and TPWS were introduced. The major cause of this incident was isolating those systems. Fail safe back-ups were rendered useless by the footplate crew. Following the initial brake application after the TSR AWS activation was not acknowledged in time, the only thing the crew were permitted to do was bring the train to a stand and contact the signaller. Not isolate the safety systems and carry on. Had the crew followed the rule book it's unlikely they would have missed the subsequent signal.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 20, 2015, 23:08:44 However, we're now verging on 'speculation' again, so perhaps it's best to wait until their full report is published by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch. :-X
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on October 21, 2015, 00:52:30 It seems this incident was a classic case of the holes (and it seems some extra holes had been added by deliberate human action) almost completely lining up in the Swiss cheese.
After reading the report, nice though it is to see them working at mainline speeds, I do wonder just how appropriate it is to be using these large steam locomotives on a hugely busy, fast, modern railway. In my opinion there are too many potential safety downsides - primarily several cumulative aspects of forward visibility which appear to have been a significant causative factor in this incident. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on October 21, 2015, 08:13:46 It seems this incident was a classic case of the holes (and it seems some extra holes had been added by deliberate human action) almost completely lining up in the Swiss cheese. After reading the report, nice though it is to see them working at mainline speeds, I do wonder just how appropriate it is to be using these large steam locomotives on a hugely busy, fast, modern railway. In my opinion there are too many potential safety downsides - primarily several cumulative aspects of forward visibility which appear to have been a significant causative factor in this incident. Where something out of the ordinary / routine is done, there are bound to be extra elements to be considered and got right - without the luxury of long run-in periods to smooth out problems, and with the "one-shot" issues that lots of people want to be involved, most of whom are unfamiliar with what's happening. And - yes - that does give rise to very serious safety concerns. Add to that the use of vintage equipment that was designed for a railway of old, on which new systems are designed to work with recent trains without significant consideration for old. chrisr_75 - I think you're very right to ask the question / express that opinion. It's unlikely to be a popular opinion, but it does have considerable merit. You are certainly not alone in the concerns, which go far wider than purely the operation issues of and from the steam locomotive itself. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on October 21, 2015, 18:54:41 Interesting read.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: IndustryInsider on October 21, 2015, 19:19:29 After reading the report, nice though it is to see them working at mainline speeds, I do wonder just how appropriate it is to be using these large steam locomotives on a hugely busy, fast, modern railway. In my opinion there are too many potential safety downsides - primarily several cumulative aspects of forward visibility which appear to have been a significant causative factor in this incident. Yes, it's an interesting, and emotive, argument. Adding to the chances of an incident happening there are other factors such as the crash-worthiness of the stock, judging from Phil Wakely's photo the consist was mostly MkI's - should such a train have been involved in an incident you can bet the carriages would have folded up like a pack of cards. Just today the unions have been complaining that steam hauled services on the Borders Line have been a health hazard due to the carriages not having retention tanks which is of course another issue - though of course there is still plenty of regular service trains still running about like that which for some strange reason wasn't mentioned... :-\ As ever, there's a balance to find somewhere. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rob on the hill on October 21, 2015, 19:28:44 BBC's take on the RAIB report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-34583242 Quote Safety equipment which was turned off allowing a steam train to pass a red signal had been turned off on previous occasions, a report has shown. The train passed a signal near Royal Wootton Bassett in March and ended up across a junction. A Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) report showed an Automatic Warning System (AWS) brake demand was by-passed by the train's crew. The report said it was not the only occasion when it had been by-passed. The driver of the Tangmere locomotive ignored two AWS warnings, the report showed. He fully applied the brakes when he saw the red signal but there was insufficient distance to bring the train to a halt. The report found the First Great Western service from Swansea to London Paddington had "fortunately" already passed through the junction before the stream train came to a halt. The steam train was operated as a charter service by the West Coast Railway Company Ltd (WCRC). The editor of Rail magazine, Nigel Harris, said: "Do not underestimate how serious this was. We were a heartbeat from absolute catastrophe. "Because the driver missed the red signal his train stopped across the junction. "No more than a minute before that a First Great Western express heading for London was occupying that junction at nearly 100 mph." The RAIB said it was continuing to investigate the incident and "the extent of the practice" of by-passing the AWS. The competence of the train crew involved, and how this was managed by WCRC, will also be investigated. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on October 21, 2015, 22:07:56 After reading the report, nice though it is to see them working at mainline speeds, I do wonder just how appropriate it is to be using these large steam locomotives on a hugely busy, fast, modern railway. In my opinion there are too many potential safety downsides - primarily several cumulative aspects of forward visibility which appear to have been a significant causative factor in this incident. Yes, it's an interesting, and emotive, argument. Adding to the chances of an incident happening there are other factors such as the crash-worthiness of the stock, judging from Phil Wakely's photo the consist was mostly MkI's - should such a train have been involved in an incident you can bet the carriages would have folded up like a pack of cards. Just today the unions have been complaining that steam hauled services on the Borders Line have been a health hazard due to the carriages not having retention tanks which is of course another issue - though of course there is still plenty of regular service trains still running about like that which for some strange reason wasn't mentioned... :-\ As ever, there's a balance to find somewhere. There are a few concerns I have with the breaking system, the air break handle operates all 3 breaking systems air (train break but on the support coach), vacuum (train break) and steam (loco break) The driver by using the vacuum break handle was not applying the breaks on the support coach (or at least that is how I read it) It would seem from the report the practice of isolating the AWS was common, I surmise this because the drivers window often got obscured by steam and soot hence the drive having to lean out so be possibly could not reach the break handle in the 2.5 secs the AWS required. NR placing the TSR board where they did perhaps did not help but was not the cause of the SPAD. I am all in favour of heritage traction operating on the system, its how to integrate modern safety systems into them. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on October 21, 2015, 23:23:51 Please forgive my pedantry but it's 'brake' not 'break'.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 22, 2015, 00:53:39 You mean there's a difference? :o ::) ??? ;D
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Electric train on October 22, 2015, 18:43:45 Please forgive my pedantry but it's 'brake' not 'break'. Hay an electrical Engineer we have Breakers so my auto type keeps spelling brake as break ;D Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on October 22, 2015, 19:00:48 Hey, that's okay! :P ;D
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: IndustryInsider on October 23, 2015, 11:08:39 Give the guy a brake, BNM... ;)
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on October 24, 2015, 05:01:09 Take on this from the Western Daily Press (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/heartbeat-absolute-catastrophe-worst-train-crash/story-28042366-detail/story.html):
Quote 'A heartbeat from absolute catastrophe' - how our worst train crash ever didn't happen in Wiltshire Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: tom m on November 24, 2015, 19:20:38 This looks frighteningly similar to the previous incident
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/11/24/west-coast-railways-steam-prohibited-on-main-line-network Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on November 24, 2015, 20:44:51 It beggars belief that, after Wootton Bassett, West Coast Railway staff would still be over-riding safety systems.
I'm appalled. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: old original on November 24, 2015, 21:01:45 I think after a proper investigation, if, as it appears, that WCR have been caught doing the same again, the temporary prohibition should be made permanent.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 25, 2015, 00:24:15 This looks frighteningly similar to the previous incident http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/11/24/west-coast-railways-steam-prohibited-on-main-line-network Many thanks for posting that link, tom m. :) Purely to assist those of our readers with portable devices, which may be less able to connect to such links, here is the text of that article: Quote West Coast Railways steam prohibited on main line network The Office of Rail and Road has prohibited West Coast Railways from operating steam trains on the main line rail network. In a statement released today (November 24), the regulator said: ^The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has temporarily prohibited West Coast Railway Company Ltd from operating steam trains on the main line rail network, to protect the safety of its staff, volunteers, passengers and members of the public. The enforcement action follows an initial investigation into an incident near Doncaster on October 2 2015, which found staff on-board locomotive 45231 had turned off its Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) isolation equipment, designed to apply an emergency brake if the driver makes an error. ORR will not allow the company to run trains where there are not effective controls in place for key safety systems. The regulator is working with the company to make the required improvements before services resume.^ The prohibition applies from 2300 on November 24, and WCR must seek formal approval from ORR before moving any steam locomotives. The notice does not affect operation of the company^s diesel trains. ORR continues to investigate the serious incident where a West Coast Railways^ steam-hauled train passed a signal at danger near Wootton Bassett Junction on March 7 2015. RAIL has approached WCR for a statement. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on November 25, 2015, 01:26:09 Quite frankly, this company and the employees responsible should never again be allowed near anything other than a model railway. Truly dreadful behaviour, assuming they've been caught doing similar things to the Wooton Bassett incident and makes complete mockery of the efforts that assorted TOC's, infrastructure companies, their employees and assorted regulatory bodies have made over the last decade or two in improving safety - perfect our rail system is not, but it certainly is pretty safe thanks to efforts made following the spate of crashes in the late '90's and early 2000's.
I hope the ORR grow some balls and takes some decisive action before a very nasty incident occurs at the hands of this lot, as they clearly have no ability to learn from previous errors. Also curious that it took nearly 2 months from the date of the incident for this to be released to press...? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 25, 2015, 01:43:46 Hmmm. From the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) statement:
Quote The enforcement action follows an initial investigation into an incident near Doncaster on October 2 2015 ... So, the ORR have apparently been investigating for some time, before imposing their latest 'enforcement action'. That suggests to me that they have found some things amiss in terms of the safety of steam train operations by West Coast Railways. However: we are in danger of speculating now, so it's probably best if I stop there, pending any further statements from the ORR. :-X Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rob on the hill on November 25, 2015, 17:01:13 Related article from Railway Herald which suggests that locos with modified TPWS isolation equipment can still be operated by WCR:
http://railwayherald.com/uknews/orr-issues-prohibition-notice-on-wcr Quote The enforcement action, which the ORR says is to protect the safety of its staff, volunteers, passengers and members of the public, follows an initial investigation into an incident near Doncaster on 2nd October 2015, which found staff on-board LMS 'Black 5' No. 45231 had turned-off its Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) isolation equipment, designed to apply an emergency brake if the driver makes an error. An ORR spokesman said: ^ORR will not allow the company to run trains where there are not effective controls in place for key safety systems. The regulator is working with the company to make the required improvements before services resume.^ Railway Herald understands that the prohibition notice comes into force from 23:00 on 24th November and does not affect diesel operations, which can continue to operate. Mayflower to operate to Minehead Since the story broke, it is understood that WCR has been actively working with the Office of Rail and Road to resolve the issues, and it is now understood that the ORR has passed LNER 'B1' No. 61306 Mayflower for operation on the main line, meaning that the trip on 26th November to Minehead should proceed as planned, steam-hauled. Railway Herald also understoods that WCR are seeking agreement with the ORR for a second locomotive to be passed as well. The ORR says that any modifications to the TPWS isolation equipment would need to be rolled-out to the entire steam fleet that is operated by WCR before the prohibition notice could be lifted. At present, the status of other tours over the coming days is unknown. At present, they would have to use Mayflower, be diesel-hauled or rescheduled. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on November 26, 2015, 13:09:37 (http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/Mobile%20Uploads/rps20151126_130249_zps4bcldpo4.jpg)
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 26, 2015, 22:25:54 Strictly speaking, ORR is now the Office of Rail and Road - but I agree with the (rather serious) safety message! ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on November 26, 2015, 23:59:38 BNM, I think you should forward that masterpiece of photoshopping on to the MD of WCR...! ;D
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: stuving on November 27, 2015, 01:05:48 Related article from Railway Herald which suggests that locos with modified TPWS isolation equipment can still be operated by WCR: http://railwayherald.com/uknews/orr-issues-prohibition-notice-on-wcr Quote Mayflower to operate to Minehead Since the story broke, it is understood that WCR has been actively working with the Office of Rail and Road to resolve the issues, and it is now understood that the ORR has passed LNER 'B1' No. 61306 Mayflower for operation on the main line, meaning that the trip on 26th November to Minehead should proceed as planned, steam-hauled. And Mayflower did go to Minehead, though perhaps not exactly as planned, losing 90 minutes at Reading. I don't know why, but for the first ten minutes (before I had to go) she was held by the signal, and the return journey was on time. There did seem to be quite a crowd of tabards on the footplate. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 27, 2015, 01:22:46 There did seem to be quite a crowd of tabards on the footplate. ORR #1; ORR #2; RAIB #1; ORR #3; DfT #1; BTP #1 ... ;) :D ;D Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: PhilWakely on November 27, 2015, 09:35:07 And Mayflower did go to Minehead, though perhaps not exactly as planned, losing 90 minutes at Reading. I don't know why, but for the first ten minutes (before I had to go) she was held by the signal, and the return journey was on time. There did seem to be quite a crowd of tabards on the footplate. Rather ironically, the reason for the delay is that somebody forgot to release the brake in one of the coaches, causing the brake to drag and burn out. I understand the coach was detached at Reading and a diesel loco was summoned from Southall to fetch it. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on November 27, 2015, 19:38:15 BNM, I think you should forward that masterpiece of photoshopping on to the MD of WCR...! ;D I did think twice about posting something as light hearted as this - these are serious incidents after all. The picture isn't my work though. It's been doing the rounds on social media. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: SandTEngineer on November 28, 2015, 10:35:06 Copy of the ORR Prohibition Notice here:
https://drive.google.com/a/orr.gov.uk/file/d/0BxwiHVUgdJBhaWI0UnNwZHBhLU0/view?pli=1 So not another actual incident but a generic precautionary notice. Always wait until you have the facts ::) :P Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on November 28, 2015, 13:05:01 Is there a typo in that notice? It states it runs from 24th August.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on November 28, 2015, 14:39:28 Is there a typo in that notice? It states it runs from 24th August. I saw that. But then it states that it will only be published after the period of appeal has run out and indeed on conclusion of that appeal with the appeal dismissed. So the process could have been ongoing for months and not know to us, with the original document now published. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rob on the hill on December 09, 2015, 11:55:00 ORR prosecutes West Coast Railway Company and train driver over signal incident
http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2015/orr-prosecutes-west-coast-railway-company-and-train-driver-over-signal-incident Quote 9 December 2015 The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has today started criminal proceedings against train operator West Coast Railway Company Limited (WCRC) and one of its drivers. The charges relate to breaches of Health and Safety Law which led to a train passing a signal warning at danger on 7 March 2015. The prosecutions follow ORR^s investigation into an incident involving a steam locomotive operated by WCRC, which passed a signal at danger near Wootton Bassett junction, Wiltshire. This extremely serious incident resulted in the train coming to a stop 550 metres after the signal, across a busy junction on the Great Western main line, directly in the path of high speed trains. The train^s driver is facing charges under section 7(a) and 8 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (HSWA). This relates to his alleged intentional misuse of the Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) equipment. ORR^s investigation found that the driver directed a colleague to turn off this essential safety system, designed to apply an emergency brake if the driver makes an error. WCRC is separately facing charges under section 3(1) and 2(1) of the HSWA. This is on account of its alleged failure to implement managerial controls, procedures, training and monitoring to prevent staff turning off the TPWS equipment. ORR has been closely monitoring WCRC^s operation since this incident. ORR has also today launched a review of WCRC^s safety certificate, which is needed to operate its trains on the rail network. Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways at ORR said: ^The safety of staff, volunteers, passengers and members of the public is our absolute priority. ^ ^Britain^s railways have a good safety record. However, there have been a number of incidents over the past year involving West Coast Railway Company Limited trains. ^ ^The incident at Wootton Bassett junction, where a WCRC train passed a signal at danger, was caused by alleged intentional misuse of a key safety system. This could have easily led to a catastrophic train collision. ^ ^ORR inspectors are working with the rail industry, in particular the mainline heritage sector, to ensure that lessons are learned, and public safety is not put at risk.^ The first hearing is due to take place at Swindon Magistrates' Court on 11 January 2016. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on December 09, 2015, 11:59:49 With legal proceedings now active could I ask we all show our usual restraint with regard to commenting on the matters now coming before the courts?
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on December 09, 2015, 12:34:51 With legal proceedings now active could I ask we all show our usual restraint with regard to commenting on the matters now coming before the courts? Interesting (and correct imho) development. I will eagerly await the outcome (without speculating of course!)! Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: old original on February 17, 2016, 18:17:42 The office of rail and road has issued a prohibition notice on West Coast
http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/news-and-announcements/2016/heritage-train-operator-prohibited-from-running-rail-services Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on February 17, 2016, 18:56:37 I think this latest prohibition may be the result of a light engine incident in the Doncaster area in late 2015. Happened while the investigation into the incident at Wootton Bassett Junction was ongoing.
WCRC really do need to get their act together. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rob on the hill on February 17, 2016, 19:08:22 See also the 9 page letter from ORR to WCRC which goes into lots of detail to as to their decision:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/20848/2016-02-17-decision-letter-to-west-coast-railway.pdf Court case to come re the 7th March 2015 incident at Swindon Crown Court on Friday 19th February... Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: John R on February 17, 2016, 19:13:34 Goodness. I am not privvy to the financial condition of WCRC, but they will need to have some reserves to get through what looks like it will be an extended period without operating. That letter is fairly damning, and I can imagine ORR will need a lot of persuading to let them run again.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on February 17, 2016, 19:14:24 Good. Serves them right.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on February 17, 2016, 19:28:07 Good. Serves them right. That's a pretty strong sentiment Chris. But I have to say I'm in total agreement WCRC came within seconds of wiping out a Wales to London HST. Following that very near miss WCRC were put on notice by the ORR. Despite that, their, what can only be described as, cavalier attitide to safe operation on the UK rail network has continued. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on February 17, 2016, 20:39:37 Harsh words indeed, but seemingly fair comment. "Catastrophic" does not seem too strong a word for what was avoided more by good luck than judgement at Wootton Bassett.
I get the impression of a failure in management to understand the need for strong governance, rigid structures to ensure safety, and clear lines of communication. The newly appointed General Manager didn't last long - either he wasn't the man for the job, or he didn't like what he saw. It looks like WCRC has a top-down restructuring to do to get its certificate back, not just a bit of shouting at the lower orders. I assume that the skills needed to crew a fully-laden steam train on a high speed main line are not possessed by very many people, and I am surprised at zero-hour contracts. Just when that would come in handy, they have to get rid of that aspect - good riddance. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on February 17, 2016, 23:57:44 As I think I've said before on this thread, this company seems to be a complete and utter liability. Hopefully if the companies officers don't get the message from ORR now, the banks will do the work and force them to cease trading. I'm not sure if it's possible, but it would be satisfying to see the company officers banned from taking any further part in the rail industry. Enough, I think, is enough now!
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Thatcham Crossing on February 18, 2016, 08:18:31 Presumably this ban includes the "Jacobite" (or "Harry Potter Train" as many may know it) up in the West Highlands? (Fort William to Mallaig).
Having seen how popular it is last Summer, that will be a big blow (and to the local economy aswell). Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on February 18, 2016, 09:12:18 Presumably this ban includes the "Jacobite" (or "Harry Potter Train" as many may know it) up in the West Highlands? (Fort William to Mallaig). During the previous ban, weren't some specials taken over / run by other companies on West Coast's behalf? If I recall that right, it may mean that some of the services still run - managed and operated by another of the specialist companies, but booked through WCRC and perhaps using their pool of rolling stock. TransWilts supporter members are probably aware of my concerns from a long time back - April 2014 - http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=13918.0 - at some of the issues / dangers of operating steam specials over unusual routes, and the issues brought on with people coming along to see. And I have to admit to being underwhelmed (and further concerned) in the two years since I wrote that. So my comment that there might be a work around is not through any desire to promote the possibility; safety of other rail users, staff, participants, and people who come along to watch comes top of my list. And that does not apply just to WCRC originated services. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: PhilWakely on February 18, 2016, 09:32:38 During the previous ban, weren't some specials taken over / run by other companies on West Coast's behalf? If I recall that right, it may mean that some of the services still run - managed and operated by another of the specialist companies, but booked through WCRC and perhaps using their pool of rolling stock. IIRC yes, this was the case, but the only motive power that could be used had to have safety equipment that couldn't be overridden - either their diesel pool or 61306 Mayflower. Wasn't the 8-day 'Great Britain' tour reduced to diesels piloting the booked steam?Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: chrisr_75 on February 18, 2016, 10:14:43 Presumably this ban includes the "Jacobite" (or "Harry Potter Train" as many may know it) up in the West Highlands? (Fort William to Mallaig). Having seen how popular it is last Summer, that will be a big blow (and to the local economy aswell). I think a serious accident would be even more of a blow... It's high time this lot are long gone for good imho. I do also have concerns about just how appropriate it is to be operating steam locos on a modern network. Yes, the enthusiasts like it, but at the end of the day the rail network is all about moving people and freight safely and efficiently from A to B - it's core purpose is not as a tourist attraction. I'm almost surprised the unions haven't stepped in and demanded the end of this companies operations due to the safety of the travelling public being put it risk, but then, there's no pay dispute is there, so why would they bother getting involved in something genuinely putting people at risk? Does anyone know if ASLEF/RMT have even commented? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on February 18, 2016, 11:26:39 During the previous ban, weren't some specials taken over / run by other companies on West Coast's behalf? If I recall that right, it may mean that some of the services still run - managed and operated by another of the specialist companies, but booked through WCRC and perhaps using their pool of rolling stock. That may be the ultimate workaround - to have a responsible operator lease (or sub-lease) WCRC's rolling stock, hire their drivers (except the one facing charges), and operate the services with a view to an ultimate takeover. The market is certainly there for the current capacity as anyone who has been disappointed when trying to book a trip will know. That assumes of course that: a) a responsible operator exists and b) the model of mixing heritage stock with Steam excursions became popular at a time when Sunday was very much the day the railway went to sleep. That is certainly no longer the case - if it isn't closed for engineering, it has scheduled services running on it. I hope that the specials can continue to run along mainline routes. Steam trains can certainly run as fast as a sprinter. Although acceleration and braking are not as good, they tend not to stop so frequently. Certainly, safety equipment must be comparable in action to any other rail vehicle, and the crews must be competent, in terms of rules and laws of the railway, route knowledge, and the special skills needed to haul a rake of 10 coaches behind a nonagenarian smoke-belching behemoth. The railway and its staff also need to be able to cope with the differences. If all these things cannot be put into place, safety cannot be ensured, and the only place for the preserved steam engine - and Tornado for that matter - will be the preserved railway. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TaplowGreen on February 18, 2016, 13:47:28 It could be a source of extra rolling stock for FGW, I'd love to see the looks on people's faces when the 0657 from Taplow rolls in pulled by a steam engine!
(more seriously, do they have diesel locos that could be used elsewhere, and what is likely to happen to the stock now that they are no longer able to operate?) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on February 18, 2016, 15:58:05 It could be a source of extra rolling stock for FGW, I'd love to see the looks on people's faces when the 0657 from Taplow rolls in pulled by a steam engine! (more seriously, do they have diesel locos that could be used elsewhere, and what is likely to happen to the stock now that they are no longer able to operate?) I gave some semi-serious (but purely theoretic) thought to the use of some of the heritage stuff on current day (and day to day) services and conclude that it's a nice but impractical / expensive idea. a) The old stuff is pretty worn out and will have huge maintenence issues to keep it going b) The old stuff's likely to use more fuel and be less efficient c) As each of the old stuff things is likely to be unique or one of few, there's a problem with exprertise d) It may not be easy to get spares for the old stuff e) There may not be specialists to operate the old stuff (and they are getting old) f) Old stuff need more staff (like firemen and guards) g) Old stuff may not meet modern safetly standards / may not mix well with very fast modern trains h) Old stuff may be smelly and dirty and the ride may not be very comfortable i) The old stuff may not be quick enough to get from Plymouth to London in less than 3 hours j) There will be huge arguments over whether the old stuff looks good in the new GWR colours Against those arguments, for certain holiday destination lines there's some potential sense in mixing heritage and national rail services, and attracting significant numbers of enthusiast could be economically sound - an ATOC report http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/publicationsdocuments/ConnectingCommunitiesReport_S10.pdf mentions some, and there was another report too I think. I could quite forsee Cardiff - Taunton becoming Cardiff - Minehead in alternate hours (1 extra train), Exmouth - Paignton becoming Exmouth - Kingswear, and a couple of others. But that's the reverse proposal - new stock on old line. Old stock on current line has been talekd about, but there are very real reliabiity fears, and fears the line(s) would become seasonal, and perhaps problmes as the years went by. Interesting to look at the Lymington experience with heritage "slammers" and consider the current discussion about the Isle of Wight ... also the Cardiff Bay Bubble Car (is the Aylesbury one still running?) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Merthyr Imp on February 18, 2016, 17:20:48 It's been Class 153s to Cardiff Bay for a while now.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Andy on February 18, 2016, 17:26:49 The Liskeard-Looe line has had a 94xx and a steam railmotor making "guest appearances". The summer through services to Newquay hauled by a steamie, D1015 (1062) - even a Deltic or a Vac - may be a possibility.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on February 18, 2016, 18:00:08 The Liskeard-Looe line has had a 94xx and a steam railmotor making "guest appearances". The summer through services to Newquay hauled by a steamie, D1015 (1062) - even a Deltic or a Vac - may be a possibility. Don't get my "list of issues" wrong ... not saying they're insurmountable every time. Ideas like a couple of heritage diesel diagrams based at Yeovil Junction and running up to Swindon (1st train) and Oxford (2nd train) before running a two-hourly Oxford - Salisbury heritage service for the day were so much pie in the sky and impractical the thought never even became a suggestion and yet remove the word "heritage" and you start seeing something that bears more than a passing resemblance to the Go-op ideas. Now ... and suggestions comments I make about Looe are based in insufficient knowledge and experience for me to so do with any weight. But I muse about a summer service that starts with a couple of round trips with a 153, which then attaches to the 08:20 at Liskeard to strengthen the Newquay train for the day. Splitting back off the 17:22 from Newquay at Par, it runs to Liskeard for the final handful of Looe services. Daytime Looe services in the hands of heritage or guest units. Nah - it won't happen ... but ... Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on February 18, 2016, 18:51:15 The Aylesbury bubble car is still running in the peaks
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on February 20, 2016, 06:58:13 Looking back ... at the Western Daily Press (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Steam-engine-driver-bosses-appear-court-near-miss/story-28571469-detail/story.html) of 20th January:
Quote The defendants did not enter any pleas to the charges they faced and District Judge Simon Cooper committed the case to Swindon Crown Court on February 19. What happens now? I haven't seen any reports from yesterday of a case starting ... should I have?? Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: PhilWakely on February 20, 2016, 09:29:40 Looking at the Crown Court listings for yesterday, I couldn't find anything bearing any relation to the case.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Southernman on February 20, 2016, 11:21:53 Looking at the Crown Court listings for yesterday, I couldn't find anything bearing any relation to the case. New date - 18 March at Swindon Crown Court. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: BerkshireBugsy on February 20, 2016, 11:29:44 Out of interest on a steam engine footplate, were there is normally more than one person, is it the driver who carries ultimate responsibility for the safe operating of the train?
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on February 20, 2016, 12:27:26 New date - 18 March at Swindon Crown Court. Probably for pleas and directions. If both plead guilty, it will be adjourned for pre-sentence reports. In the event of a not guilty plea, and the Crown proceeding with the case, a new date will be set for the trial, and witnesses will be notified. The hearing will be spent in identifying areas where the Crown and the defence agree on the facts, and where witnesses are not required, plus identifying issues of law which the judge will need to rule on. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rob on the hill on March 07, 2016, 10:53:23 RAIB investigation is now complete; final report to be published in April:
Quote Our investigation, which is independent of any investigation by the Office of Rail and Road, is now complete; formal consultation with interested parties will start shortly. We expect to publish the final report in April. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dangerous-occurrence-at-wootton-bassett-junction-wiltshire-updateTitle: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on March 09, 2016, 21:58:14 That RAIB makes for sobering reading, but amply demonstrates a law of rail, air, and marine accidents, and probably of road traffic accidents:
No accident ever has only one causal factor. In practice, there are usually at least three. In this case, the AWS system was effectively switched off, the portable magnet for the TSR was positioned closer to the permanent magnet for the AWS, and the driver's view from the windscreen was obscured. Put any one of those right, and the SPAD may not have occurred (but if my auntie had nuts, she'd be my uncle). Fortunately, there were couple of lucky breaks in this case - Tangmere left home a few minutes late, meaning the HST was gone when she passed the signal, and the route had been set after the HST had passed, even though the signal remained at danger, meaning no damage. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: JayMac on March 09, 2016, 22:01:49 Worth reiterating that the RAIB doesn't apportion blame and that their final report is on hold. There is an ongoing criminal case. Caution needed here when making comment.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on March 09, 2016, 22:53:41 I ran my last post past my legal adviser before hitting the button.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: eightf48544 on March 10, 2016, 04:14:41 Out of interest on a steam engine footplate, were there is normally more than one person, is it the driver who carries ultimate responsibility for the safe operating of the train? Technically the Guard is in charge of the train, the driver takes responsibility for the safe working of the locomotive, obeying signals and maintaining the schedule. In steam loco days there would have been 2 on the footplate driver and fireman with the occasional Inspector, route learner, footplate pass holder and on quieter lines the odd small boy. But on steam specials there will usually be a Traction Inspector possibly a Network Rail Rep an owners representative plus others it can get quite crowded. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Western Enterprise on March 10, 2016, 11:27:32 on quieter lines the odd small boy. LOL - must have been used in times past to clean the chimney..... :D Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 20, 2016, 01:30:01 In the meantime, UK Railtours have pointed out, in their Newsletter 186:
Quote TIMINGS NOW CONFIRMED FOR THE DEVON BELLE SATURDAY 2 APRIL 2016 Main Line Steam operated by DB Schenker UK Railtours are agents for the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust (https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/NlqPZHVV0gaCHTknI-yOkORGH6mEu0jH6WFbCnbCIiMcJ197eAAgmLJkfYQus7pAxv2LMpe3EyampVV5Bg-9U5fmIVakRUD2fIeEKfTUbt8I_8e-pSzZOEKZ7XVicmn5oNdrU5-06-U68ixvomi6tmJnL8Bx6v9812Jef48=s0-d-e1-ft#https://gallery.mailchimp.com/b36a5ca242e42976740b8d5f4/images/8c2303c1-f0ff-4c41-9457-049b0515e585.jpg) The issues with West Coast Railway Company don^t affect us, so you can still enjoy Main Line Steam. Here are the timings for The Devon Belle, hauled by 60163 ^Tornado^ throughout: Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rob on the hill on March 23, 2016, 12:57:12 West Coast Railway Company prohibition lifted
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/03/23/west-coast-railway-company-prohibition-lifted Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Adelante_CCT on March 23, 2016, 12:58:53 Until the next incident....
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 23, 2016, 18:09:34 Hmm. :-X
As ORR Director of Railway Safety and HM Chief Inspector of Railways Ian Prosser said, Quote ^We shall continue to closely monitor WCR over the coming period to ensure that their approach is embedded into the culture of the company and that they fully comply with all the commitments they have made." Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: old original on March 23, 2016, 20:56:25 well that makes me feel safe..... :-\
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 05, 2016, 12:15:54 The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) has now published the full report (https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/5729a636e5274a036700000f/R082016_160505_Wootton_Bassett_Jn.pdf), available on their website:
Quote Signal passed at danger (SPAD) on the approach to Wootton Bassett Junction, Wiltshire, 7 March 2015 At around 17:25 hrs on Saturday 7 March 2015, train reporting number 1Z67, the 16:35 hrs steam hauled charter service from Bristol Temple Meads to Southend, passed signal SN45 at danger. Signal SN45, which is situated on the approach to Wootton Bassett Junction, was being maintained at danger to protect the movement of a scheduled passenger train. At the time that the incident occurred, this scheduled passenger train had already passed through the junction. No injuries, damage or derailment occurred as a result of the incident. Train 1Z67 was operated by West Coast Railways and consisted of the steam locomotive ^Tangmere^ and 13 coaches. Although Tangmere is a heritage locomotive, it is fitted with modern safety systems including the Automatic Warning System (AWS) and the Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS). RAIB^s investigation has found that signal SN45 was passed at danger because the driver did not reduce the train^s speed on approach to the signal. This meant that he was unable to stop the train in time, once he realised it was at danger. The driver had not reduced the train^s speed because he had not seen the preceding signal, which was at caution and should have alerted him that SN45 was at danger. He missed this preceding signal because he had become distracted by activity within the cab and possibly also because he was experiencing a higher workload than normal. Train 1Z67 also passed signal SN45 at danger because the TPWS system was unable to reduce the speed of the train by automatically applying the brakes. This was because TPWS had been rendered ineffective by Tangmere^s crew when they had isolated the AWS system in order to by-pass an automatic brake application which had occurred at a speed restriction. Isolating AWS in this way was in contravention of the relevant rules but the RAIB has found that it had almost certainly become an accepted practice among some train crews on this locomotive. This was probably because warnings from AWS were not always apparent to drivers, who were also anxious to avoid delays resulting from brake demands. Measures intended to prevent the misuse of AWS isolations had either not been adopted by West Coast Railways or had not been effectively implemented. The RAIB found three underlying factors. These were that the AWS system on Tangmere was installed in a way which meant that warnings from the system were not always apparent to drivers. In addition, the investigation found that a speed restriction which was in place on approach to the junction was based on incorrect information and had been implemented in a way which did not conform to the relevant rules and standards. The investigation also found that West Coast Railways had a weak safety culture and that this had affected the way its staff observed rules and instructions. As a result of this incident, RAIB has made five recommendations. One recommendation is addressed to RSSB, working in conjunction with steam train operators and Network Rail, and relates to a review of the arrangements intended to assess, prevent and mitigate the risks associated with steam movements. Three recommendations are addressed to West Coast Railways. These relate to a review of its safety management system and safety culture; the implementation of industry best-practice concerning the management of drivers^ knowledge of operating routes; and the arrangements for maintaining on train data recorders. One recommendation is addressed to Network Rail. This concerns the way that emergency and temporary speed restrictions are designed and implemented. RAIB has identified one key learning point. This is that allowing safety critical systems such as AWS and TPWS to function without improper interference is vital to the safe operation of the railway. By-passing safety systems, or isolating them other than in accordance with the requirements of the relevant rules, can have catastrophic consequences. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Billhere on May 05, 2016, 20:00:20 The RAIB report into the Wootton Bassett SPAD with Tangmere was published today.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/521033/R082016_160505_Wootton_Bassett_Jn.pdf The usual RAIB thorough investigation which I shall dip into when I have half an hour to spare. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Adelante_CCT on May 05, 2016, 20:04:30 Such as this topic:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15554.msg194964#msg194964 Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on May 05, 2016, 20:55:46 With thanks to Adelante_CCT for pointing it out, I have now merged the two topics for ease of reference.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ellendune on May 05, 2016, 20:56:59 Has the court case happened then - I had not heard anything.
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Rooke on June 27, 2016, 21:16:50 ORR have issued a press release this evening. West Coast fined £200,000 and ordered to pay costs of £64,000.
Driver Cox received 4 month prison sentence suspended for 18 months. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: bobm on June 27, 2016, 22:19:13 Full story from Swindon Advertiser (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/14583128.Railway_company_fined_over___200_000_after_driver_blamed_for_a_potentially_devastating___39_near_miss__39_/)
Quote THE driver of a steam train involved in a 'near miss' had his head out of the window to see where he was going because the windscreen kept misting up, a court heard yesterday. Melvyn Cox also told a colleague to turn off safety systems which would have automatically stopped the engine before the incident at Royal Wootton Bassett. By the time he saw the red light it was too late to stop the train, going from Bristol to London, which was left straddling the junction seconds after a high speed passenger train had passed through. Had he got there a minute earlier the steam train Tangmere could have been involved in a 'disastrous' smash with an Intercity 125 from South Wales to London. West Coast Railway Company Limited was fined £200,000 plus £64,000 costs. Mark Watson, prosecuting, told Swindon Crown Court how the two warning systems fitted to the train had been switched off prior to the incident. As a result, when the driver failed to hear the alarm going off the brakes were not automatically applied, as they should have been. Cox had his head out of the window as the front window was misted up due to a small steam leak. It meant when a safety system was activated for a temporary speed limit, which didn't affect them, he was late pressing a button causing the brakes to kick in. Instead of bringing the train to a halt and contacting the signalman, as the rulebook says, he told his fireman to switch off the safety system so they could carry on. Moments later the horn sounded to warn of a yellow signal. When the alarm went off again for the red light at signal SN45 they again carried on until Cox spotted it flashing at the side of the track and put on the emergency brake. Mr Watson said: "As he was travelling at excessive speed, the heavy locomotive came to a stand across Wootton Bassett junction 690 metres from the signal. "A London bound high speed train carrying approximately 240 passengers had passed the junction on the Badminton line a minute before. "A collision was only narrowly avoided with the potential consequences that can be imagined." Cox, of Shirley Close, Swanage, Dorset, and his employers both admitted two health and safety offences. David Travers QC, for West Coast Railway, said the company had changed its health and safety training since the incident. Mark Watson, for Cox, said: "He fully recognises his breach and the fact he put a number of people at risk. "The public are very right to expect the very highest standards of care to be exercised by train drivers on the public railways. "He fell inexcusably short of that standard on this particular day." The court heard the train driver, who has been in the business since leaving school as a 15-year-old more than 50 years ago, had been left a broken man by the incident. Judge Peter Blair QC imposed a four-month jail term suspended for 18 months. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on June 27, 2016, 22:22:15 That ORR press release (http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2016/train-operator-fined-for-safety-failings).
Quote Train operator fined for safety failings 27 June 2016 Train operator West Coast Railway Company Limited (WCRC) has been fined £200,000 and ordered to pay costs of £64,000. This follows a prosecution brought by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) for breaches of health and safety laws which led to a train passing a signal at danger near Wootton Bassett on 7 March 2015. Melvyn Cox, a train driver with 40 years’ experience, has also received a four-month prison sentence, suspended for 18 months. ORR investigated an incident involving a steam locomotive operated by WCRC between Bristol and Southall, which passed a signal at danger near Wootton Bassett junction in Wiltshire. The train stopped almost 700 metres after the signal, across a busy junction on the Great Western main line. ORR inspectors found significant failings in WCRC’s managerial controls. The company had not implemented appropriate procedures, training or monitoring of staff to stop intentional misuse of the Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) equipment. Our evidence showed the train’s driver Melvyn Cox directed a colleague to turn off this essential safety system, designed to automatically apply an emergency brake. WCRC and Melvyn Cox both pleaded Guilty at Swindon Crown Court today. Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways said: Train operating companies and their drivers hold positions of great responsibility, with a duty to protect the safety of colleagues and passengers. Almost all undertake their roles in accordance with the rules and their training. West Coast Railway Company’s (WCRC) ineffective management led to their train driver deliberately misusing a key safety system on a train travelling between Bristol and Southall. This prosecution has led to WCRC taking significant steps to improve its management of safety, with support from the regulator. Rail safety remains one of the regulator’s key priorities and we will always take action against companies or individuals if failings are found. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: grahame on June 28, 2016, 06:10:41 It's unbelievable that crews still take chances with AWS/TPWS, but sadly some still do. A reminder of what could have been ... from Harrow and Wealdstone during the morning rush hour of 8 October 1952. This was before the days of full AWS, and the report reminds us of the importance of such a system. "It passed a colour light signal at caution, two semaphore signals at danger, and had burst through the trailing points of the crossover from the slow lines". 112 people were killed and 340 injured ... as there was a train stopped in the platform The report considered a system warning drivers that they had passed a signal at caution or danger would have prevented ten percent of the accidents (and 28% of the consequent deaths) in the previous forty-one years, thereby saving 399 lives, including the 112 at Harrow. Read more at London Connections (http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/angels-and-errors-how-the-harrow-wealdstone-disaster-helped-shape-modern-britain/) and Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrow_and_Wealdstone_rail_crash) Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on June 28, 2016, 09:43:17 Full story from Swindon Advertiser (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/14583128.Railway_company_fined_over___200_000_after_driver_blamed_for_a_potentially_devastating___39_near_miss__39_/) Quote he court heard the train driver, who has been in the business since leaving school as a 15-year-old more than 50 years ago, had been left a broken man by the incident. Judge Peter Blair QC imposed a four-month jail term suspended for 18 months. All I can say is Good. You don't play with people's lives. EVER. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: TonyK on June 28, 2016, 10:46:56 That this did not end in massive loss of life was certainly more down to good luck than good judgement. Had the train passed the signal a few seconds earlier, our driver would be in prison for a long time, and the company would not be let anywhere near even a model railway.
He has been left "a broken man" by the incident. As would I had it been me. To quote the Bard "The offender's sorrow lends but weak relief, To him that bears the strong offence's cross". 50 years in the industry makes his deliberate actions even more inexcusable. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: ChrisB on June 28, 2016, 10:55:18 One wonders just how long he'd been doing this.....
Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: IndustryInsider on June 28, 2016, 16:11:51 All I can say is Good. You don't play with people's lives. EVER. I quite agree. Sometimes we do go overboard on Health & Safety IMHO, but such actions have no place in the modern train driving world. The reason these incidents are so rare is because 'professional driving' has moved on massively since the spate of crashes around the turn of the century, and TPWS has successfully intervened on several occasions where mistakes have been made to stop potential loss of life collisions. Prior to that rules were regularly broken (the isolated ATP and AWS of the 1997 Southall crash is a prime example), and that's precisely why there was usually a bad accident every year or two. Prior to that, in steam days, SPAD's were quite common and often not even recorded - I've heard stories of a friendly wave from the signaller from the window of the box to say "Never mind, carry on, no harm done." often being the way such incidents were resolved! Any more 'rogue drivers' out there had better take note of this particular incident. Title: Re: Steam train SPAD at Wootton Bassett Junction, 7 March 2015 - RAIB investigation Post by: Billhere on July 03, 2016, 21:17:39 The AWS on that HST at Southall was isolated in accordance with the rules at that time. It quite clearly stated that the train could run with it isolated to avoid cancellation or delay.
A colleague of mine took the first call about the AWS being isolated when it was at Oxford in the early morning, and it ran to Padd like it. He took the Drivers report and passed it on, but at that time there was not any replacement set available so it ran in that state, in accordance with the rule at that time. The set went to Swansea after that with the AWS correctly working on the Swansea end of the train. When it was ready to come back the driver reported that the AWS was isolated and the same situation arose, no replacement unit available to take it out of service so the train was allowed to run, again in accordance with the rule at that time. The rule was changed after that event as a result of the enquiry. ATP, don't know anything about that, so can't say. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |