Great Western Coffee Shop

I have a complimentary scratchcard ticket with which I'm intending to rack up some miles this Friday and Saturday with GWR.

This will be used for a 'state of the (GWR) nation' roving report to see how things are on long distance services ahead of the major timetable change.

My plan is as follows:

Friday
0941 Castle Cary to London Paddington 1111 (buying ticket for this - see below)
1203 London Paddington - Penzance 1709

An overnight stay in Penzance. Then on Saturday I shall return from Cornwall to Somerset on a selection of trains to be decided on the day. I'm aiming to get a 'Castle Class' set at some point.

Now, back to the ticket I'm buying from Castle Cary. National Rail Enquires and BRFares both say that the Super Off Peak Single is valid from 0940 (validity code XC). I've not found a booking engine that will sell me said ticket for the 0941 though. And @GWRHelp has thus far concurred with the booking engines and said the first train I can catch is the 0955 changing at Westbury.

I will of course be buying the Super Off Peak, as I won't be breaking any railway laws or byelaws if there's a difference of opinion with staff. I'll state my case and, if its insisted upon, pay the excess, up to and Off Peak Single and complain later. I have to say though that whilst I would (and have in the past) experienced issues with more esoteric but valid tickets I'm disappointed that I'm already concerned about the potential consequences of using a straightforward point-to-point ticket.

from BRFares conditions ...


Condition is the the train not the station. Your train leaves Taunton at 09:20, Pewsey at 10:18 .

That's from a huge unformatted block of text that's really hard to read but, sorry, reads to me that it's not valid on the 09:40 from CLC.

The journey planners are only obeying orders, of course - in the unpublished restrictions the entry for Castle Cary applying now says: "Not valid to depart   CASTLE CARY   0430–0944   on any TOC". Obviously that does not agree with the human-readable equivalent: "09:40 from Castle Cary (if travel is via Bath Spa, ...)".

The version published by NRE has the words but not (by definition) the unpublished data, and we are directed to look there for detailed details. We are also told to use their OJP to test validity. Now I think that counts as an offence under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 - either misleading availability or misleading information. Mind you, maybe the whole fares system is so confusing it would fall foul of that too.

After Decmeber 15th the OJP instruction changes to "Not valid to depart   CASTLE CARY   0430–0939   on any TOC" - but don't get all excited, as there isn't a train at anything like that time in the new timetable.

It's important to read all that text. Castle Cary is in there. It's a station. it has trains that depart at certain times. And it's human readable validity times under code XC are as quoted by stuving.

And I agree with stuving regarding contractual terms. Ambiguity favours the consumer. The text information and the online journey planner (OJP) disagree. I, as the consumer, am siding with the text!

I think that's ambiguous - the condition might be understood to apply to the train only at that station. I don't think I've ever seen an explanation of how to read those restrictions, but common sense suggests this interpretation:

Why would you list all those stations if some of the times are wrong on (I suspect) all relevant trains on the line?
Why does it also say (in the notes) "Super Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above."? OK, that's ambiguous too, but is most likely to be read as about departure time of the connection.

Also, the time restriction codes in the data feed apply to the journey, not to the train elsewhere on its travels (as I read it anyway). So there isn't an implementation route for the other interpretation in JPs. Each time restriction item specifies one of arrive/depart/via (and also defines valid, not invalid, time periods). I think that's part of the reason why so many unpublished restriction line items are needed - to avoid the JPs having to look at the rest of the train's route.

This code is ... even harder to follow ... than most.


Then below


Includes


The web site at BrFares as a whole says it is


and


Having said which, the data is excellent and I believe does come from the official feeds / sources.  It's date marked and I have quoted elements above dated for a November 2019 Friday.

I worry about the whole concept of "unpublished restrictions".  Perhaps it's a poor use of words - but it strikes me as very bad practise to restrict fares but the say they are "unpublished" which means that the poor sod who just uses the published data can get caught by hidden extra rules and restrictions (or, perhaps, can go past a fare option for something more expensive because these restrictions are less onerous).

There is also a double negative at play - "not valid to depart between 04:30 and 09:44" does NOT say "valid to depart up to and until 04:29 and at 09:45 and later" - we may kinda assume that, or may we??

I had - I will admit - missed the "09:40 from Castle Cary" in the top section when reading earlier ...

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Looking back to an old printed timetable I have (2007), the equivalent of the train you want to catch was shown as leaving Castle Cary at 09:39. I suspect the intent when the condition was written was that the super off peak ticket to London was not to be valid on "this" train.   The "published" condition has not been updated to take account of the train now running 2 minutes later, so you should be OK. The "unpublished" condition has been updated / added so by that you are NOT OK.  I don't know which way the contradiction resolves - which element trumps which other element.

An unpublished restriction can't be contractually enforced surely?

And whilst you are right about BRFares being unofficial, I got my information about code XC from the official source:

http://nre.co.uk/xc

Oh, and a Super Off Peak Single didn't exist between Castle Cary and London Terminals in 2007. Super Off Peaks were introduced by FGW in September 2009. The restriction code back then was WJ. If the train in question departed at 0939 in late 2009 then, admittedly, it supports the hypothesis that the current public XC text is an error and the unpublished restriction is correct. WJ had 0945 for Castle Cary.

Screengrab of code WJ from late 2009 is attached.

https://youtu.be/GHIQzFuLAcU

Hopefully I won't have my head nailed to the floor on arrival at Paddington. Gateline staff there can be an issue but I don't think they're yet at the level of Dinsdale.

It'll be interesting to learn whether your ticket successfully operates the barriers at PAD.

I doubt they'll be tested as the train (today at least) arrives at platform 1 at Paddington

It is clear that the detailed restriction timings are tweaked to match the train times (except, is in this case for the slab of text, when they aren't). It also looks as if the data feed to JPs is seen as primary, and keeping the text in sync is seen as less important. By GWR, presumably, as I assume they are responsible for these details of the codes used for the flows they price, though possibly having to collaborate if they are shared. I think we have probably reached the point where it would be simpler to indicate acceptability of off-peak ticket types in the timetable, rather than GWR translate that into times at stations and us all have to translate it back again.

But surely (and it's a bit odd Graham seems to have missed this) BRFares just takes the data feed and translates it into text for us to read. I had assumed that big slab of text was a single field in one (or divided between several) of the records in the restrictions file. But it can't be - the only record* with any text fields is the restriction header record (e.g. the header for restriction XC) which has three, called description fields - for the whole code (30 characters), for outward journeys (50), and for return journeys (50). Just that main block for XC is 2076 long, and the longest single "line" (Cheltenham Spa) is 164. So that must come from elsewhere! I wonder where ... OK, most likely just taken from nre.co.uk and formatted for the page?

However, if anything that reinforces the point that the unpublished restrictions are not published because they are generated and sent to JPs as (most of) the content of the restrictions file (updated about three times a week) in the data feed. Their purpose is to encode the restrictions unambiguously for JPs, and BRFares translates them into text. NRE/RSP may do this internally, I suspect, so they (including TOC and other staff) can sit around in meetings arguing about them. But officially they are not needed by us because the text says the same in readable form - which is highly debatable.

* there is also an exceptions record, 50 characters of free text but no coded data

I think I've just spotted evidence that the text version of the time restrictions is not generated by computer from the data feeds' coded data, which was I guess a possibility. If you hunt down the list (in XC) for Ivybridge, you will find that the time given is 09;00 - with a semicolon not a colon. Now times in the data feed are always represented by four numeric characters, so if you want colons in the the middle you have to add them yourself. That error could only have been made by the hand of a human handling this process.

So my guess is that some poor junior minion has the job of updating them from a representation of the unpublished data feed contents, presumably doing so in batches to be held and then uploaded to nre.co.uk at predetermined dates (the dates shown on BRFares in the unpublished data lists). One thing that flags up is that while the JPs know about future changes of the restriction times, we don't because we only see the current version. That (or at least the fact that it's not mentioned) is arguably an issue under the CPRs in itself.

The trip itself has been put on hold. A concerning medical issue has arisen today. Would rather be nearer home. GP suggested likewise.

So sorry to hear that, and hope that you soon recover. (or that the other party recover if the issue is not your own health)

It is myself.

I remain hopeful of getting this trip in before the new timetable starts. Diagnosis and treatment will inform that.

The written text for restriction code XC has been updated. It is also now better formatted. I decided to post this topic on a public board, and I strongly suspect GWR's Fares Implementation Team (one member in particular who I don't see eye to eye with due to his customer unfriendly actions...) read this thread as well as my tweets.

Isn't it amazing how quickly an error that potentially costs GWR revenue (no matter how little the loss) is fixed? Contrast that with the multitude examples day in, day out, where passengers are overcharged due to fares system errors.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/xc

I would have thought the failure to update was an oversight, perhaps due to starting to think the published code is now not very important. So the level of publicity may have prompted the quick reaction. They may also have feared, for the same reason, that any dispute over this was just a bit too likely to end up in an unwinnable court case.

But the effect isn't all one way - many of the times have shifted forwards (to match the data feed). Pewset, for example, was 10:30 and is now 9:30, which makes 1A77 available on super off-peak. I did in fact test PEW-PAD this morning, to make sure that the code for an SSS was XC and that the OJP allowed it on 1A77 at 10:18. It did, despite the text still saying 10:30 start and the same train being disallowed at other stops. So (if this horse isn't quite dead enough already) the OJP does just apply the times in the data feed and the unpublished data as BRFares says:

Oh, and I see that Ivybridge's errant semicolon has survived.

In looking through the published information (and that which is nominally 'staff only'), I've found other errors with restriction codes that favour the passenger.

One could prove useful for my rearranged trip.

Sorry to the GWR Fares Implementation Team who aren't very good at their job (my personal opinion). I'm not helping you out further by posting the details publicly. :P

In my view, when anomalies or mistakes in published fare information favour the passenger, then they should be honoured, not forever of course but until the next timetable change AFTER THE CORRECTION at least.

The only exception should be when the error or anomaly is so gross that a "reasonable person" should realise that it is mistake.

Paddington to Penzance, first class for 88p is clearly a mistake.
An off peak ticket stated to be valid on a train at 09-42 is NOT a clear mistake and should be honoured.

What I find a bit worrying is that the restriction wordings can be changed at any time, and there is no audit trail of when they were changed. So I can buy a ticket on one day, relying on the then current wording, and find that by the time I have travelled the restriction means that my ticket is no longer valid.

Unless I took a print out of the previous wording (which let's face it most people won't do), there's no evidence to disprove the railway company's version of events.

I would be pretty sure that if you purchased a ticket for travel at a later date, based on reading conditions which tell you it is valid on the train you intend to take, and the condition is subsequently changed, then you have every legal right to travel on the train with that ticket as the conditions were when you bought it.  A poor show for any company to sell you a product, take your money, then change the spec before you get the product or service in such a way that it's no longer what you require. I suspect, however, that there are very few super off peak Castle Cary to London tickets already purchased for the 09:42 with people still to use them. 

The grey area (if you like to call it that) is for people who - like our member here, I believe, have researched and decided to buy a product - and one that was stated to be available until and including Friday 13th December.  But then to find (or not find until they get stopped on the day) that the product was changed, after they researched it for their chosen day but before they actually bought the ticket, in such a way it was no longer suitable for them.   Legally, I suspect the TOC can change the conditions for new sales at any time, though I suspect that there may be franchise and other contractual elements in place to stop them changing fares of which trains are in which fare brackets without notice.


Indeed - though I don't think there's anyone from GWR who's argued in the current case that the super off peak fare start time from Castle Cary was never before the 09:42 departure;  in any case, we do have evidence here on the forum in this case.

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I do find it surprising that the fare condition was changed mid-timetable to correct what I suspect was an unintended loophole that had been created for super off peak tickets to be used from one particular station.  Yes, of course errors will come to light and need to be corrected, but for GWR to do so out of the normal cycle of fare updates, without (as far as I know) notice to or consultation with anyone ... and for an error which will flush out of the system on 16th December and become irrelevant anyway, seems churlish and likely to cost them more in customer relations than they'll gain in extra revenue.   I wonder why they simply didn't leave it alone for the next few weeks, when the issue goes away.

The grey area is exactly my point grahame - there's nothing to stop GWR (or any TOC) changing the conditions of a ticket at any point and anyone who's purchased a ticket in good faith will very likely not be able to prove that the conditions have been changed since they bought the ticket. 

I have long felt that the present fares system is unduly complex and have previously suggested a means to hugely simply this.

My proposal may be SUMMARISED as
Only 3 different fares for a journey.
These fares to be colour coded, and timetable entries to be similarly coloured as to which tickets are valid on which train.
Most tickets to be valid via any reasonable route.
When a route restriction is required this MUST BE PRINTED ON THE TICKET.
The fare payable to be determined by how busy the train is expected to be, not by the time of booking.

I see no merit in the present system which allows discounted advance tickets on already overcrowded trains, but then charges punitively high fares for last minute travel on a lightly loaded train.

That colour coding idea could be misleading for connections into those services for origins/destinations that have different peak and offpeak times to the actual part of the service shown in the timetable...

(If that makes sense...)

Paul

Pure coincidence probably, but a service I've been using for some months in the evening peak period for which GWR (and some others) were selling itineraries with off-peak tickets has changed to peak only, at least to Didcot. I was never had my ticket checked on that train even though it usually goes from an unbarried platform.