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Title: Bristol Underground System proposals - merged posts Post by: johnneyw on October 17, 2019, 13:26:19 Mayor Marv's state of Bristol speech last night pledged to build an underground system witnhin 10 years. I thought this one was quietly being dropped but I suppose there are elections in the fairly near distance.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2019, 16:57:31 Here's the 'transport' section of Marvin Rees' 'State of the City' address, as reported on the Bristol City Council website (https://news.bristol.gov.uk/news/state-of-the-city-2019-mayor-focuses-on-immediate-changes-needed-for-bristol)
Quote Transformation of transport in the city is needed and will include the following. A Bus Deal that will:
Mass Transit that will:
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: johnneyw on October 17, 2019, 18:55:44 When Marv was speaking on BBC Radio Bristol today, the 10 year timeframe quite surprised me, especially when you consider the time taken so far and the years still to go before the much shorter (and partly extant) Portishead Line is due to be ready.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Noggin on October 21, 2019, 08:57:56 When Marv was speaking on BBC Radio Bristol today, the 10 year timeframe quite surprised me, especially when you consider the time taken so far and the years still to go before the much shorter (and partly extant) Portishead Line is due to be ready. Indeed, at the very least you need a couple of years to do the planning, couple of years for the consultation/public enquiry, couple of years to get the act of Parliament/TaWA, then you have to build the thing! And that is of course assuming that the darn thing can be physically threaded through the city. I've said it before, but heading north from Broadmead, the first real opportunity for the line to surface would be pretty much Southmead, and there aren't many easy sites suitable for station buildings/ventilation shafts. As for the bus plans, where exactly do they expect traffic to go if they ban traffic from the Old City and the City Centre? Said it before, but surely it would be better to leave it, but introduce a workpace parking levy like Nottingham did and earn some dosh to build something more straightforward like a tram system? Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 21, 2019, 09:34:52 Quote ...a loop service – a circle line that will connect the city central areas of Broadmead and Cabot Circus to the Centre, Redcliffe, Temple Meads, and Old Market every few minutes Sounds very familiar. For younger readers, here's what this could look like: (https://zemblanity.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CCC-scaled.jpg) Source: Bristol Omnibus Co Bristol City and Country Area Bus Timetable, 1st December 1974 until 11th October 1975 Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: johnneyw on October 21, 2019, 10:09:36 The 1000 cars at Canon's Marsh car park have gone underground and I bet it's rather less than that number now.
Edit: The pedestrian underground car park entrances around Millennium Square always reminded me of Metro Station entrances! Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on October 21, 2019, 19:21:05 Here's the 'transport' section of Marvin Rees' 'State of the City' address, as reported on the Bristol City Council website (https://news.bristol.gov.uk/news/state-of-the-city-2019-mayor-focuses-on-immediate-changes-needed-for-bristol) Quote Transformation of transport in the city is needed and will include the following. A Bus Deal that will:
Mass Transit that will:
The words seem to be carefully chosen. Were the plan to be the building of an underground railway, I am sure the council document would have said that explicitly. So what is it? Underground MetroBust is asking for trouble. A line from the airport "looping through the south of Bristol" conjures up a vision of a railway joining the main line around Parson Street, but MetroBust arguably loops through the south of Bristol. Similarly, joining up Cribbs and the northern frozen zone to the nearby railway would be very welcome, but underground? So we wait with bated breath. Can Marvin start from scratch and build the Corbyn-Rees line in under a decade in a city that started with an idea for trams in 2000 and ended up with three new bus routes and falling passenger numbers 18 years later? And is this contingent on a Labour landslide locally and nationally? My inner sceptic is unconvinced. Which is sad, because Something Must Be Done. Bristol has tried nothing much, and is all out of ideas.Council bus services weren't the answer, so we privatised them. That didn't work, so we spent tens of millions on new bus lanes, and that didn't work. So we spent hundreds of millions on bus routes, and that isn't helping much. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 23, 2019, 09:32:06 A petty disagreement, TonyK, Bristol isn't "all out of ideas", it's full of ideas but all out of putting those ideas into action.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: broadgage on October 23, 2019, 13:41:17 I rather doubt that this will happen.
Tunneling is hugely expensive and is likely to get more so due to the safety industry requiring ever wider tunnels. New underground railways require a walkway beside the track for emergency use, how long until the safety industry require this to be wider than at present ? or provided on both sides ? How long before conductor rails are banned, even in tunnels ? 25Kv overhead will require larger tunnels. And of course newts, bats, and nimbys. Look at Crossrail for some idea of cost overruns and delays. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 23, 2019, 14:16:01 Were the plan to be the building of an underground railway [my italics - RS], I am sure the council document would have said that explicitly. Last time I heard him talking about this kind of thing Marvin Rees said, sotto voce, '...not necessarily on rails'. Underground busways are not without precedent: the Lincoln Tunnel XBL is sometimes cited as an example of underground BRT. But this is usually by folk whose politics lie to the right of where one might assume a Labour Mayor's would lie and who, one would assume, could not imagine a world in which their fortunes sunk so low as to necessitate them actually having to use it... Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: johnneyw on February 18, 2020, 10:59:48 More in Bristol Live regarding the "Bristol Underground" with accompanying video. Once again, rather vague and aspirational. Yes,
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/underground-station-temple-meads-transport-3858826 Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Phantom on February 19, 2020, 11:07:58 Yes, What a spooky coincidence ;D ;D Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on February 19, 2020, 14:49:33 Two premises:
Quote 1. We need to reduce private motor car usage by 40% in order to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets; 2. We need to find routes for a rapid transit system. One potential conclusion is: Quote A. We need to reallocate some of the road space currently used by private motor cars to provide routes for rapid transit. Another is; Quote B.We need to build the rapid transit system underground so that it does not interfere with traffic. Now I'm not a professor of logic, but it seems to me that conclusion B is a cloth-eared syllogism. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 19, 2020, 16:06:59 Not entirely, if you bear in mind that some of the traffic it would interfere with – particularly during construction – would be buses, cycles and pedestrians.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Adrian on February 19, 2020, 19:27:47 What about option C - build an elevated monorail?
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on February 19, 2020, 19:37:37 What about option C - build an elevated monorail? You mean an elevated maglev monorail..? Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on February 19, 2020, 21:04:36 Not entirely, if you bear in mind that some of the traffic it would interfere with – particularly during construction – would be buses, cycles and pedestrians. Good thinking if we have those interesting boring machines on the go, less so if cut and cover is the preferred option. A friend told me that he lived in Newcastle during the construction of the underground tunnels, remembering it as chaos for three years, with new holes opening to replace finished ones. Even bored tunnels need shafts for access and stations. Nottingham city centre was a mess while the tram tracks were laid and Bristol was whilst the Temple Gate Gyratory was finally mended. Whatever option ends up being chosen is going to cause pockets of chaos while under construction, so we should choose carefully, and remember that whenever one demands that a council "does something", there is always the risk that it might just do that.You can't break a few eggs without making an omelette. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: johnneyw on February 19, 2020, 21:17:47 What about option C - build an elevated monorail? It would be interesting to know how elevated sections compare in cost and disruption to the tunneling option. Of course you can mix both along different sections of lines where one option is more suited than the other. Also, as a personal observation, elevated rail in an urban setting tends to look quite cool! Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: grahame on February 19, 2020, 22:08:34 ... those interesting boring machines ... Please - are they interesting, or are they boring? Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on February 19, 2020, 23:14:51 You can't break a few eggs without making an omelette. Ah, Tony, if you'd lived in Bristol for as long as I had you'd know that its City Fathers are more than capable of breaking eggs without ever coming close to anything that resembles an omelette. Remember the 550 houses they knocked down in Totterdown for the Outer Circuit Road? Actually, for that matter, remember the Outer Circuit Road? Not that I'm a big fan of urban motorway omelettes, you understand... By my reckoning, incidentally you'd have to knock down about 20 houses to make a through route of the Bristol and North Somerset railway to Radstock. Odd, isn't it, that we consider that impossible? Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: froome on February 20, 2020, 09:40:50 Underground Bristol is, of course, full of old mine shafts, with the tunnels from the East Bristol and South Bristol coalfields meeting right under Temple Meads station. That should offer both opportunities and challenges for an underground system to be developed.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 20, 2020, 10:50:18 I remember the Inner Circuit Road but don't think I've ever heard of the Outer Circuit Road.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on February 20, 2020, 11:01:56 Here's a map I drew for a Wikipedia article about road schemes in Bristol. Apologies for my wobbly cartography! The red line is the inner circuit road; the blue line is the outer circuit and the grey lines are arterial links. Only the section from the M32 to Lawrence Hill was completed, though large areas along its route were blighted. If you want to try to imagine the vision, picture a 6-lane motorway from Clifton to the M32... the grade-separated interchange at Queens Road would have been a particular highlight.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Map_showing_proposed_road_network_from_Bristol_City_Centre_Policy_Report_1966.svg/800px-Map_showing_proposed_road_network_from_Bristol_City_Centre_Policy_Report_1966.svg.png) Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on February 20, 2020, 14:23:36 You can't break a few eggs without making an omelette. Ah, Tony, if you'd lived in Bristol for as long as I had you'd know that its City Fathers are more than capable of breaking eggs without ever coming close to anything that resembles an omelette. Remember the 550 houses they knocked down in Totterdown for the Outer Circuit Road? Actually, for that matter, remember the Outer Circuit Road? Not that I'm a big fan of urban motorway omelettes, you understand... By my reckoning, incidentally you'd have to knock down about 20 houses to make a through route of the Bristol and North Somerset railway to Radstock. Odd, isn't it, that we consider that impossible? And I agree entirely. More than that was CPO'd and demolished for Metrolink in Manchester, including a funeral parlour and a Baptist church in Oldham. Houses in the way were bought as soon as the authorisation to build came through, by negotiation I believe, and were then rented on short-term lets to people on the housing list. The Baptists got a nice new church, and there have been no complaints from the customers at the funeral parlour. Nor from anyone else for that matter. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 20, 2020, 16:01:18 So just about the only part of the OCR actually built was Easton Way and St Philip's Causeway? I understand the elevated section of the latter is now facing major works or potential demolition due to weakening concrete. Guess that was intended to be a flyover over not quite Nugent Hill, or were they actually going to demolish Kingsdown? (best not to know, sometimes)
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on February 20, 2020, 16:15:35 So just about the only part of the OCR actually built was Easton Way and St Philip's Causeway? I understand the elevated section of the latter is now facing major works or potential demolition due to weakening concrete. I didn't know that. It used to be my route to work, and by coincidence, while in Bristol yesterday, I almost went over it to drop in on a former neighbour. Almost, because from traffic from Lawrence Hill was at a standstill at 4pm. I didn't bother. If that has to close for any length of time, or even have a lane closed, the effect on Bath Road and the few rat runs by the Netham Road bridge will be awful. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on February 20, 2020, 16:29:59 St Philip's Causeway isn't part of the OCR; it was built ten or so years after the OCR plan was abandoned. The first couple of hundred metres of its northern end use the planned alignment of the Lawrence Hill - Totterdown leg, but after that it swings well to the east of the OCR route.
There are other bits and pieces if you know where to look: The section of St John's Lane between Wells Road and St Luke's Road; The bit of dual carriageway where Jacobs Wells Road meets the Triangle was a link road; Sheene Road, and the odd road layout to the south of the railway. The large area to the east of the A38 in Bedminster is still blighted by the planned elevated dual carriageway which was to connect to the A38 near Parson Street. This was not part of the OCR but is sort of related. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: froome on February 21, 2020, 12:27:53 St Philip's Causeway isn't part of the OCR; it was built ten or so years after the OCR plan was abandoned. The first couple of hundred metres of its northern end use the planned alignment of the Lawrence Hill - Totterdown leg, but after that it swings well to the east of the OCR route. St Philip's Causeway was planned and bulldozed through by the Bristol Development Corporation, which the Government of the time foisted onto the local community with the specific intention and getting this road built. It was not supported by the local authorities or much of the local populace at the time. The BDC had no democratic structure, so there was no way to effectively oppose their plans short of direct action, and was wound up as soon as the desired goal (the Spine Road) was built. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on February 21, 2020, 13:13:45 Ah, Tony, if you'd lived in Bristol for as long as I had you'd know that its City Fathers are more than capable of breaking eggs without ever coming close to anything that resembles an omelette. Remember the 550 houses they knocked down in Totterdown for the Outer Circuit Road? Actually, for that matter, remember the Outer Circuit Road? 41 years? I remember the last couple of houses to be knocked down in Totterdown. I slept in one of them, then derelict, during my aimless meandering around this and other countries around 1973. I also seem to recall signs for the outer circuit road, but not the actual road. I was not motorised in Bristol until 1979, so can presumably be forgiven. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Red Squirrel on February 21, 2020, 14:59:04 I'll take your 41 and raise you 19.
Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on February 21, 2020, 15:21:10 Underground Bristol is, of course, full of old mine shafts, with the tunnels from the East Bristol and South Bristol coalfields meeting right under Temple Meads station. That should offer both opportunities and challenges for an underground system to be developed. The two coalfields never quite met, I am told, but it was close. The tunnels will be of little benefit to any putative underground system. Bristol lost out to South Wales because the coal was in such small seams comparatively, and a lot more dross had to come to the surface with it. It also wasn't as good coal. I would think that the main problem will come when the boring machines hit patches of fossilised bats and newts. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: Robin Summerhill on February 21, 2020, 18:20:09 I would think that the main problem will come when the boring machines hit patches of fossilised bats and newts. The problems will come when they hit the first rills (drainage channels) that have been happily draining water away from where the coal faces were for the last 500 years, and nobody will know about them until the borings get flooded... Perhaps we should dig up Marc Brunel - he had a few water breakthroughs on the Thames tunnel. Title: Re: Bristol Underground System. Still on the cards? Post by: TonyK on February 22, 2020, 13:57:43 The problems will come when they hit the first rills (drainage channels) that have been happily draining water away from where the coal faces were for the last 500 years, and nobody will know about them until the borings get flooded... Perhaps we should dig up Marc Brunel - he had a few water breakthroughs on the Thames tunnel. It wouldn't be without precedent, with the Severn Tunnel being at the extreme end of the examples in Britain. Work on the big long sewer from Hanham to Avonmouth encountered quite a few springs and underground waterways. A friend who plastered my walls in the house we bought in 1985 had worked on it, and was briefly famous in an anonymous sort of way when the tunnel he was digging broke through into a shaft outside the then HTV studios, and his was the hand that shook the hand of the waiting reporter. You don't get telly like that any more. A grout made of mainly power station fly ash, and costing ten times the price of normal grout, was used because it would go off under water if need be. They were not so deep in places - a hundred feet or more below Totterdown, but in Hill Avenue by Victoria Park, they started to find bricks dropping from the foundations of the houses above. Nobody above knew, and the houses were left left much stronger than when they were thrown up. All of which beggars the question as to why tunneling should be such a problem or so expensive, if Wessex Water were able to drill something big enough to drive a Mini through with little disruption, and in a short timescale. Title: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: infoman on April 07, 2022, 11:11:56 https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/construction-bristols-mass-transit-system-6916221?utm_source=bristol_live_newsletter&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter2&utm_medium=email
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: DaveHarries on April 11, 2022, 18:33:51 https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/construction-bristols-mass-transit-system-6916221?utm_source=bristol_live_newsletter&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter2&utm_medium=email I think this will happen first.(https://media3.giphy.com/media/N1ZAtLMnqX1U4/giphy.gif?cid=790b761191320b006ecdfbb8707dda88881ef66455bac072&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) Dave Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on July 17, 2022, 11:48:13 More doubt being cast on the future of the mass transit system in Bristol 24/7 from the deputy mayor who places the blame at WECA's door.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/funding-for-bristols-mass-transit-system-at-risk/ Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on July 18, 2022, 17:23:14 Transport is WECA’s responsibility. Bristol City Council was never going to build a public transport system on its own, and WECA has never been anything other than lukewarm about an underground. So what is the point of this story, and who benefits from the outrage it seeks to create?
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 18, 2022, 18:36:27 Outrage has, unfortunately, become an end in its own right for many media outlets.
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: infoman on August 25, 2022, 07:10:44 https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/underground-railway-network-transformational-bristol/?utm_source=Bristol24%2F7&utm_campaign=b446299960-bristol247_newsletter_250822&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_67a9a4e1bd-b446299960-38758697&ct=t(B247_newsletter_250822)&mc_cid=b446299960&mc_eid=86ae7efe71
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on August 25, 2022, 11:20:02 The article, like those before, is light on detail but I'm guessing that it's intention is to keep the issue in the public eye rather than providing anything more specific.
There still seems to be discussion regarding and underground system versus a "mass transit" system. If the term "mass transit" in reality is "constructive ambiguity" parlance for "bus system" then perhaps Bristol could sell itself as a late C20th public transport theme park. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 25, 2022, 12:20:47 perhaps Bristol could sell itself as a late C20th public transport theme park. Excellent idea! But not limited to the late C20th. We've got buses, double and single decker, running on diesel, methane, CNG and electricity. We've got ferries. We've got urban trains. We've got electric scooters and bikes. We've got an underground railway which hasn't run for almost 90 years and probably has a claim to be the world's shortest underground rail system. We've got trams, or at least tram sheds. And we've got plans for every other system you could possibly imagine as well as some you couldn't!Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on August 25, 2022, 12:56:27 This is the Bristol Mayor's press release:
Quote Mass transit: Bristol’s underground studies Source: Mayor of Bristol (https://thebristolmayor.com/2022/08/24/going-underground-2/)The mass transit plan, including going underground, is Bristol and our wider region’s only real option for a future transport system that works. Bristol has been left behind on transport while all other big British cities have built and modernised mass transit: our city has delivered nothing in recent decades. Those of us old enough can remember the endless announcements for tram lines, the announcements of transport systems of the future, and political promises that offered 21st century travel options. The reality is nothing was delivered and Bristol commuters continue to crawl. We have made real progress since first announcing our aspirational plans, and remain unapologetic about our ambition for Bristol. There is no time to fail and no time to delay. Today, ahead of the Strategic Outline Business Case and a West of England Combined Authority consultation on options, we’re publishing the executive summaries of two major studies into the potential of mass transit for our city and region. The next stop on our journey to mass transit follows on from us securing further funding in February for more studies to continue building the detailed case for mass transit in Bristol. The first study, by CH2M and Steer Davies Gleave, agreed that the idea was worth pursuing. It said that an underground system moving around 3,000 passengers per hour per direction would be deliverable. For a growing city of 472,000 people, with 1 million people here during the work and school day, this is not at all a big ask. We should rise to the scale of the challenges we face, not limit ourselves with the failed thinking of previous administrations. The second study, by Jacobs and Steer, said that an underground is a reasonable prospect, which could deliver value for money and “transformational” economic benefits for the city and region. It emphasised that an underground, unlike un-deliverable above-ground trams which councillors forewent in the early 2000s, would avoid the disruption and destruction of having to knock down one side of buildings along key yet narrow arterial routes like Church Road or Gloucester Road. These expert studies demonstrate that delivering an underground transport system for Bristol isn’t some grand design. It’s us punching at, not above, our weight, in line with Newcastle, Liverpool, and Glasgow. We’re a core city, and a global city, not a village. We need a modern, low carbon transport system, yesterday. 159 years after London opened the world’s first underground, they’re still expanding its network through the £19 billion Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) across the capital. It’s more than time for Bristol and the West to get our fair share too. We are part of the combined authority and are working with Metro Mayor Dan Norris and his team, as well as the leaders of South Gloucestershire and Bath & North East Somerset to deliver a genuine transformation of our transport. We must keep this project on the rails and finally transform the way we travel in and around our city. You can link directly to the Executive Summary here: https://thebristolmayor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Combined-exec-summaries.pdf Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: grahame on August 26, 2022, 08:12:39 perhaps Bristol could sell itself as a late C20th public transport theme park. Excellent idea! But not limited to the late C20th. We've got ...Do we also have guided buses ... dockside railway ... vertical public transport (lift) in Trenchard Street car park to take you up to Park Row. Avon Valley Railway. Concorde to see at Filton, and a working airport on the top of the hill somewhere to the south of the city. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 26, 2022, 08:39:42 And infinite continuous moving stairways in every shopping centre!
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: froome on August 26, 2022, 08:47:58 And a few backbreaking cobbled streets.
Step forward Wilder Street and the small section of road outside the public library, both of which I often have to cycle along. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 27, 2022, 13:16:25 Quote “We have continued the work to build a mass transit system that will transform the way we move around the city region,” said Rees. https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/mayor-promises-to-steer-ahead-with-underground-railway/“Economic and geological assessment work is done. We are about to commit a further £15 million with our neighbours to take this work to the next stage. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Phantom on October 28, 2022, 11:15:09 Quote “We have continued the work to build a mass transit system that will transform the way we move around the city region,” said Rees. https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/mayor-promises-to-steer-ahead-with-underground-railway/“Economic and geological assessment work is done. We are about to commit a further £15 million with our neighbours to take this work to the next stage. The guy is delusional Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: DaveHarries on October 29, 2022, 10:50:19 Quote “We have continued the work to build a mass transit system that will transform the way we move around the city region,” said Rees. https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/mayor-promises-to-steer-ahead-with-underground-railway/“Economic and geological assessment work is done. We are about to commit a further £15 million with our neighbours to take this work to the next stage. The guy is delusional Dave Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on November 01, 2022, 22:21:37 And the saga continues:
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristols-new-underground-rail-network-7772344?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 02, 2022, 08:42:30 (https://i2-prod.bristolpost.co.uk/incoming/article7003014.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_SG_BGSD_masstransit.jpg)
Let's assume this actually gets built. We can even assume the "Over or underground rapid routes" really will be underground rail. But look at the pattern. What's new? One line through St George and out to unspecified points in the north-east of Bristol (maybe Kingswood, maybe Emersons Green?). Everything else pretty much duplicates existing routes. And even the new one doesn't provide a circumferential or non-radial route, everything is still routed through the centre, probably involving a change and out again. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on February 21, 2023, 18:02:18 Always nice to get a straight answer from a politician: https://twitter.com/i/status/1628071652159283200
…I think we can officially declare the Marvin Metro dead. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on February 22, 2023, 20:40:36 Always nice to get a straight answer from a politician: https://twitter.com/i/status/1628071652159283200 …I think we can officially declare the Marvin Metro dead. More stillborn than dead, maybe. As final confirmation before the knacker's cart arrives, and I haven't read it all yet, I don't think it gets a mention in the recently published Greater Bristol Rail Network Strategic Study (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/Wales%20and%20Western/Greater%20Bristol%20Rail%20Network%20Strategic%20Study%20February%202023.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0u5QeFiZKgTWayKy_8GcnznpuSVm5j2j0cWPQ0BI7KUSzIqBL774fvaa4) Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on February 22, 2023, 23:27:02 To be fair, it wouldn’t would it.
Good spot though, TonyK! Did you like the bit about four-tracking from Keynsham to Bath? Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on February 23, 2023, 22:52:57 To be fair, it wouldn’t would it. Good spot though, TonyK! Did you like the bit about four-tracking from Keynsham to Bath? I did rather, although I am struggling to take it seriously yet. Parson Street to Bedminster looks easier, and will surely ensure an appearance on Great Railway Journeys of teh World. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on February 24, 2023, 12:17:15 To be fair, it wouldn’t would it. Good spot though, TonyK! Did you like the bit about four-tracking from Keynsham to Bath? I did rather, although I am struggling to take it seriously yet. Parson Street to Bedminster looks easier, and will surely ensure an appearance on Great Railway Journeys of teh World. Also the discreet recommendation for full electrification :-) Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: chuffed on February 24, 2023, 12:29:31 Parson Street and Bedminister International may yet receive a second state visit from Sir Michael Portaloo.....
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on February 24, 2023, 18:57:21 So that it doesn't get buried in the underground, I have started a new thread for the Greater Bristol Rail Network Strategic Study, at:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=27232 Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 24, 2023, 19:09:13 Keeping the underground plans above ground; the battle of the mayors continues as Metro Marvin says No-tube Norris lacks ambition:
Quote “The lack of ambition of both Bristol city opposition councillors and the combined authority is staggering,” Rees said. “I remain committed to the mass transit system including the use of underground in central areas.” https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/metro-mayor-lack-ambition-bristol-underground-staggering/ ...while "totally rejecting" a newly revealed estimate of £18 billion for the cost of an underground system. Quote The study, by multinational consultancy giants WSP, concludes that an overground mass transit network would cost between £1.5bn and £1.8bn, but an underground would set taxpayers back ten times that amount – £15.5bn to £18.3bn. Quote A spokesperson for Rees said: “We totally reject the report and its content. https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/bristol-underground-would-cost-18bn-secret-report-reveals/“It was commissioned by the West of England Combined Authority and their brief for WPS was initially challenged by Bristol City Council. “The costs are far removed from previous estimates and are a response to the flawed approach that some in WECA have taken to this point. “Buses alone are not the answer to Bristol’s decades of transport failure, which we set WECA up to solve not ignore. “Bristolians need and deserve a mass transit system, so the Mayor of Bristol will continue to strongly argue for the next tranche of delivery. “Failure of leadership to deliver a mass transit system fails our city and our region.” Rees, who will be making the case for another £15m to be spent developing mass transit at the next WECA committee in March. Norris has declined to comment. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on March 22, 2023, 12:36:31 Just a it seemed to me that WECA or more specifically our Metro Mayor had put the whole issue of underground mass transit out of the question, along comes this different take on matters from New Civil Engineer:
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/tunnelling-work-for-planned-bristol-underground-would-be-relatively-easy-22-03-2023/?tkn=1 So, is it back on with WECA or isn't it? I'm confused (as regulars to the Coffee Shop will likely already know). Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: infoman on March 22, 2023, 13:59:48 Has anyone actually managed to connect to the site
Future4West Because I have not. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 22, 2023, 16:41:24 I haven't found a website of that name to try to connect to.
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on March 23, 2023, 08:52:56 Future4West is a thing: https://www.future4west.co.uk/
Not very exciting at the moment, but maybe it’ll change with time. I presume the ‘4’ refers to the four proposed rapid transit lines, as well as being a homonym of ‘for’. If you google it, you may find stuff about a band from Dundalk and all sorts of other things. Google assumes the ‘4’ is a mistake unless you tell it otherwise. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on March 24, 2023, 11:34:02 Has anyone actually managed to connect to the site Future4West Because I have not. I see a login page but if you go to https://staging.future4west.co.uk/ in Google Chrome and ignore the security messages you can see something on the A38 upgrade which may or may not be news. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on March 24, 2023, 11:40:30 Just a it seemed to me that WECA or more specifically our Metro Mayor had put the whole issue of underground mass transit out of the question, along comes this different take on matters from New Civil Engineer: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/tunnelling-work-for-planned-bristol-underground-would-be-relatively-easy-22-03-2023/?tkn=1 So, is it back on with WECA or isn't it? I'm confused (as regulars to the Coffee Shop will likely already know). Or perhaps it was just horse-trading? WECA pay £13.8m consultants fee to kick the project into the grass long enough for Marv to be out of office. Marv gets to say "I got this transformational idea to the next stage". Marv stops blocking WECA. WECA include in the report scope some stuff they might actually be interested in. In the scope of the report they include a bunch of stuff Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on March 31, 2023, 17:51:30 Not very exciting at the moment, but maybe it’ll change with time. I presume the ‘4’ refers to the four proposed rapid transit lines, as well as being a homonym of ‘for’. Four Lines Now? I'm interested... Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on September 18, 2023, 12:36:23 Bristol Live claim to have seen a report by senior WECA transport managers regarding the feasibility of a mass transport system for Bristol. It doesn't rule out an "underground system" entirely but clearly leans towards most of it being above ground. Article link below.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/exclusive-report-bristol-underground-says-8756011?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on September 26, 2023, 12:35:22 Despite the reports in the previous post regarding mass transit in Bristol, Metro Mayor Dan has once again poured cold water on the "underground" scheme and instead seems here to confirm that he'll tackle the problem with buses.
That should solve it. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-underground-plans-ruled-out-8779052 Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on September 26, 2023, 16:17:33 Bristol Live claim to have seen a report by senior WECA transport managers regarding the feasibility of a mass transport system for Bristol. It doesn't rule out an "underground system" entirely but clearly leans towards most of it being above ground. Article link below. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/exclusive-report-bristol-underground-says-8756011?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target In fairness, 55% of London Underground is above ground. Despite the reports in the previous post regarding mass transit in Bristol, Metro Mayor Dan has once again poured cold water on the "underground" scheme and instead seems here to confirm that he'll tackle the problem with buses. That should solve it. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-underground-plans-ruled-out-8779052 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Planning for more buses will get Bristol nowhere. A mix of heavy rail where it can be done and light rail where it can't is the way forward. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on September 26, 2023, 19:14:51 Indeed. A local rail campaign recently tweeted (https://twitter.com/FOSBR/status/1705327319471018062):
Quote (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6qKGPaW8AATGSk?format=webp&name=small) Honest question: Can anyone explain the point of the 'guided busway' sections of the m2 bus route? The (specially equipped!) bus slows to a crawl, enters the busway, dawdles through it, then speeds up again when it gets to the end. #bristolrail So far this has 8413 views and 47 likes. Seems to have struck a bit of a chord. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: simonw on September 26, 2023, 20:57:31 The fact the Bristol has a mayor (soon to be replaced by committee) that wants an underground, and the West of England has a mayor that wants buses is interesting.
Too much ambition by one and zero by the other. Whilst not a transport guru, I'd like to see the FOSBR (Bristol Rail Campaign) plan for the West of England come to fruition, with frequent services, local bus hubs and finally an integrated local rail and bus tickets that facilities local travel and not make it impossible by public transport. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on September 27, 2023, 19:32:43 Interesting though that the Bristol Live report carrying Mayor Dan's reassertion that there wouldn't be an underground was followed by him talking of visiting Coventry shortly to see a transport innovation in the city. He was presumably talking about the Very Light Rail facility there.
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: chuffed on September 27, 2023, 21:07:06 Given the width of the guidedbusway rails on the m2...I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Marvin ordered some broad gauge trains to replace the buses.....as a parting shot to a certain WECA mayor.
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on September 27, 2023, 23:09:25 Given the width of the guidedbusway rails on the m2...I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Marvin ordered some broad gauge trains to replace the buses.....as a parting shot to a certain WECA mayor. Maybe not broad gauge, but light rail would fit nicely. The skew bridge could be an issue though. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on September 28, 2023, 16:01:55 Given the width of the guidedbusway rails on the m2...I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Marvin ordered some broad gauge trains to replace the buses.....as a parting shot to a certain WECA mayor. Maybe not broad gauge, but light rail would fit nicely. The skew bridge could be an issue though. Nice bit of interlaced track would sort that! Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on September 28, 2023, 21:24:04 Given the width of the guidedbusway rails on the m2...I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Marvin ordered some broad gauge trains to replace the buses.....as a parting shot to a certain WECA mayor. Reminds me of the Basque country where they basically build everything to metre gauge, including new tramways and metros, presumably to annoy the rest of Spain, that is apart from the new high-speed line which will be standard gauge, presumably that's OK because it connects to France. Incidentally, if you think HS2 is taking a long time, Google the Basque high-speed lines where there are long lengths of the route with the civils done but no track or overheads because they can't agree how to get the lines into the big cities. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: simonw on October 06, 2023, 16:49:44 And today, the Liverpool Region has announced that it plans to copy the Manchester Region in franchising bus services.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/06/liverpool-announces-it-will-bring-buses-back-under-public-control (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/06/liverpool-announces-it-will-bring-buses-back-under-public-control) Hopefully WECA will pick up the challenge and follow! Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on October 09, 2023, 21:35:31 And today, the Liverpool Region has announced that it plans to copy the Manchester Region in franchising bus services. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/06/liverpool-announces-it-will-bring-buses-back-under-public-control (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/06/liverpool-announces-it-will-bring-buses-back-under-public-control) Hopefully WECA will pick up the challenge and follow! A bit of thread drift, I know, but I remember buses under public control in Bristol, around 1977-78 when I first moved there. If they can bring them back as good as that, then Bristol is done for. Qua the late Fred Wedlock, seldom heard and never seen. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Zoe on October 10, 2023, 17:34:22 Hopefully WECA will pick up the challenge and follow! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64965693That won't be easy though since the WECA lacks the council tax precepting powers which the other combined authorities have. It would appear that South Gloucestershire Council will not agree to the introduction of such powers. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on October 10, 2023, 19:27:03 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64965693 That won't be easy though since the WECA lacks the council tax precepting powers which the other combined authorities have. It would appear that South Gloucestershire Council will not agree to the introduction of such powers. It seems we reached the stage of everyone blaming everyone else in March, then. That looks like the end of councils running buses, never easy when routes cross territorial borders. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: WelshBluebird on October 10, 2023, 21:23:12 It seems we reached the stage of everyone blaming everyone else in March, then. Good to see them keeping the old Avon traditions alive! Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on April 30, 2024, 19:27:39 An apprentice transport planner and volunteer analyst for Enroute has come up with an alternative suggestion for a Bristol mass transit scheme that requires much less tunneling and disruption than current proposals do.
It's more than just another crayonista's evening in the pub bright idea but doesn't pretend to be the finished article either.....will anyone pick it up though? Article link below: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/alternative-plan-bristol-underground-use-9253365 Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on April 30, 2024, 21:07:49 It's good to keep the debate going.
Essentially as far as rail goes he's not a million miles from Bristol Rail Campaign's tram-train thoughts. However using the Midland line through Fishponds is far from low-hanging fruit - it's a very well-established park as well as being a walking and cycling route. And a northern curve at Narroways, through the nature reserve and allotments, seems challenging too. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Phantom on May 01, 2024, 10:35:15 An apprentice transport planner and volunteer analyst for Enroute has come up with an alternative suggestion for a Bristol mass transit scheme that requires much less tunneling and disruption than current proposals do. It's more than just another crayonista's evening in the pub bright idea but doesn't pretend to be the finished article either.....will anyone pick it up though? Article link below: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/alternative-plan-bristol-underground-use-9253365 Weren't the original plans for the Metro system in Bristol based on the same thing? But got scaled back from an actual metro system to buses being used on less routes Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on May 01, 2024, 11:01:20 Most plans for a Bristol and Bath area 'metro' have been based on the heavy rail network (including disused parts). The 'Future4West' plan is unusual in that it seems to be based on different corridors, starting as it does with the premise that it is not possible to expand capacity along existing rail corridors. This premise rules out tram-trains, which is in my view a huge mistake.
Most other plans, such as the enroute post, ATA's plans from the 1980's and Bristol Rail Campaign's 'Plan for Rail' use the heavy rail network as a basis - though things that might have seemed possible in the 80's (like using the old Midland Main Line) clearly aren't possible now! Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 02, 2024, 01:44:03 Most plans for a Bristol and Bath area 'metro' have been based on the heavy rail network (including disused parts). Portishead, perhaps? ::) Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on May 02, 2024, 11:07:30 An apprentice transport planner and volunteer analyst for Enroute has come up with an alternative suggestion for a Bristol mass transit scheme that requires much less tunneling and disruption than current proposals do. It's more than just another crayonista's evening in the pub bright idea but doesn't pretend to be the finished article either.....will anyone pick it up though? Article link below: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/alternative-plan-bristol-underground-use-9253365 I have to say that I wonder if he's read the various Network Rail long-term planning docs, knows whats happened in the last few years and what work is in the pipeline? He might not like the speed of progress, but there's all sorts either going ahead (Portishead & Henbury lines), under study (Filton Bank electrification, Narroways Junction remodeling and extra track) and on the wish list (4-track south of Temple Meads, 4-track between Parkway and Westerleigh etc), all of which expands capacity, resilience and the business case for extra infill stations like Lockleaze, reopening the Thornbury branch etc. The proposals seem to me like a very extravagant way to relieve Temple Meads, get heavy rail into Broadmead and justify reopening the old Midland line for rail, at a time when the city's economic centre of gravity is moving east towards Temple Meads and St Philips. Firstly, if one wanted to relieve Temple Meads, surely the answer is to return to the plan of building new platforms on the north side for GWR and Cross-Country terminating services? In terms of expanding the heavy-rail network, I'd argue that it's best thought of as an asset for longer-distance journeys, with expansion focused on what could remove the greatest number of car-miles, whilst having social benefit by giving access to education, employment and cheaper housing. On that basis, beyond the items listed above, it would make far more sense to be planning lines now to Clevedon and Midsomer Norton/Radstock to be built in the 2030s, whilst starting immediate planning for a heavy-rail connection into Bristol Airport from both north and south, which could at least in-part be financed by the airport's owners. One other thought is could Dyson be persuaded to bankroll a branch off the GWML to Malmesbury, with a station at Chipping Sodbury included in the scheme? As for Bristol itself, seems to me that money would be far better spent on a tram network, sure there probably has to be considerable on-street running, but much of the rest of the world manages that perfectly well so surely we can too. And converting the cycle-path to rail or building metro stations under Clifton? Good luck with that, the NIMBYs will keep you busy for years! Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Red Squirrel on May 02, 2024, 11:19:07 Tend to agree with most of what you say, noggin.
...to relieve Temple Meads, surely the answer is to return to the plan of building new platforms on the north side for GWR and Cross-Country terminating services? The aspiration to extend Platform 1, and potentially add a Platform 0, hasn't gone away - but it's not a costed plan yet. As to which trains would use these platforms: Given that the relief lines from Filton to Temple Meads (and, eventually, Parson St) are all to the north-west of the mains, it might make sense to keep these platforms for local services to Henbury, Severn Beach and (again potentially) Cardiff. This also fits rather neatly into any scheme to extend these lines to Central Bristol using tram-trains. Friary, Victoria St, Bristol Bridge and Baldwin St no longer have through traffic, so a surface tram-train line should be feasible. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on May 03, 2024, 09:17:05 Tend to agree with most of what you say, noggin. ...to relieve Temple Meads, surely the answer is to return to the plan of building new platforms on the north side for GWR and Cross-Country terminating services? This also fits rather neatly into any scheme to extend these lines to Central Bristol using tram-trains. Friary, Victoria St, Bristol Bridge and Baldwin St no longer have through traffic, so a surface tram-train line should be feasible. That makes a lot of sense, particularly if the planned road running of the tram trains in Cardiff work out well. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on May 03, 2024, 11:15:12 I have to say that I wonder if he's read the various Network Rail long-term planning docs, knows whats happened in the last few years and what work is in the pipeline? He might not like the speed of progress, but there's all sorts either going ahead (Portishead & Henbury lines), under study (Filton Bank electrification, Narroways Junction remodeling and extra track) and on the wish list (4-track south of Temple Meads, 4-track between Parkway and Westerleigh etc), all of which expands capacity, resilience and the business case for extra infill stations like Lockleaze, reopening the Thornbury branch etc. .... As for Bristol itself, seems to me that money would be far better spent on a tram network, sure there probably has to be considerable on-street running, but much of the rest of the world manages that perfectly well so surely we can too. And converting the cycle-path to rail or building metro stations under Clifton? Good luck with that, the NIMBYs will keep you busy for years! Filton Bank being "under study" for electrification does, though, confirm the inbuilt inertia within rail projects. At the same time as it was being completely rebuilt, electrification was on the way the BPW. All the bridges (except Lawrence Hill) were adapted or replaced, and the line was completely shut while the work was going on. The cost of adding in at least the foundations for electricity gantries at the same time would have been miniscule in terms of the overall project, but it wasn't done. Chance like that are too often missed, even if the wiring into Temple Meads would have had to have waited for. Tram network has always seemed logical to me, having "grown up" in a much smaller place that has one. It would be a big job, but not impossible, to thread major routes through the city. Unfortunately, I let my grandson have my crayons, and haven't seen them since, so I can't show you exactly how, but it has all been demonstrated begore. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: Noggin on July 22, 2024, 15:05:36 Options for mass transit 'without significant tunneling' being explored by WECA - https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/exploring-options-mass-transit-without-significant-tunnelling/ (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/exploring-options-mass-transit-without-significant-tunnelling/)
Now that Marv and his passion for an underground has gone, I wonder if someone has suggested to Dan Norris that a tram network might be on the cards in exchange for toeing the party line? Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on July 22, 2024, 22:40:31 Options for mass transit 'without significant tunneling' being explored by WECA - https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/exploring-options-mass-transit-without-significant-tunnelling/ (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/exploring-options-mass-transit-without-significant-tunnelling/) Now that Marv and his passion for an underground has gone, I wonder if someone has suggested to Dan Norris that a tram network might be on the cards in exchange for toeing the party line? Bristol online thinks trams will be announced later this month. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/weve-waited-long-this-bristol-9427344 Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: grahame on July 22, 2024, 23:02:15 Options for mass transit 'without significant tunneling' being explored by WECA - https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/exploring-options-mass-transit-without-significant-tunnelling/ (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/exploring-options-mass-transit-without-significant-tunnelling/) Now that Marv and his passion for an underground has gone, I wonder if someone has suggested to Dan Norris that a tram network might be on the cards in exchange for toeing the party line? Bristol online thinks trams will be announced later this month. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/weve-waited-long-this-bristol-9427344 Any of these possible? (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds1.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds2.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds3.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds4.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds5.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds6.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds7.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds8.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds9.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/bneeds0.jpg) Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: johnneyw on July 23, 2024, 14:03:10 Any of these possible? It's Bristol so it'll probably be something more like this. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: anthony215 on July 23, 2024, 18:15:53 Why do I see GWR looking at a fleet of 398s to run some local services around Bristol
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on July 23, 2024, 20:40:28 Why do I see GWR looking at a fleet of 398s to run some local services around Bristol Do tell more! I know TfW is waiting for delivery, with one running through BPW in January, but hadn't heard they were on the cards for Bristol. If so, I would expect to see a lot of cabling appearing at the same time. Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on July 23, 2024, 22:53:02 I've been reading through the WECA report, having no sheep to help me sleep, and I thought it looked like an instrument of surrender written before the battle. Unless I have read it wrong, and I'll try again tomorrow, it seemed to suggest that the only possible solution to the problems of public transport caused by buses being stuck in traffic is to have more buses.
Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: ChrisB on August 04, 2024, 19:53:41 Made The Express (via MSN) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/famous-uk-city-could-get-huge-new-tram-network-after-18bn-scheme-shelved/ar-AA1ocONP?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=8ced4149d6204e1a8f95a310550bcdbd&ei=87), no less....
Quote Famous UK city could get huge new tram network after £18bn scheme shelved Amajor UK city could be getting a huge new tram network - after an £18bn plan to build an underground railway looks set to get quietly shelved. For years, politicians in Bristol have squabbled about building either an underground rail network, favoured by former Labour mayor Marvin Rees, or a tram network. The tram plan was backed by the Greens - who largely took control of Bristol City Council in May. Last year a secret report was finally released that concluded a Bristol underground would cost more than £18 billion. Millions of pounds of taxpayer money has already been spent on the plan, which now looks very unlikely to get off (or under) the ground However, former prime minister Rishi Sunak vowed to make £100m of funding available for a mass transit system in Bristol. And a West of England Combined Authority report said it is "vital the project progresses". The report highlighted "the strategic importance of this project and the contribution it will make in achieving economic growth and environmental improvements for the region". But it said that "preliminary costings included in the strategic outline case for options that involve significant tunnelling are substantial" and "could be considered to be unaffordable". The report added: "Therefore, as part of a pragmatic approach, officers will develop proposals to enable the progression to outline business case stage, of route options that do not involve significant tunnelling for consideration, by the committee in September 2024." It's now thought that redesigning of the proposed mass transit to avoid extensive tunnelling, given the high costs involved, will mean a tram network will be created instead, reported Bristol Live. It comes two decades after a £200 million - or £323 million in today's prices - plan for a Bristol 'Supertram' was scrapped after some of the money earmarked for trans was used elsewhere, to help minimise council tax increases. However, Bristol Live's comment section suggests the city's residents are now getting fed up with waiting. A user with the name Grockel said: "Manchester, Nottingham and Sheffield cracked on with it and have had trams/trolleybuses in operation for over 15 years whilst in Bristol it is more feasibility studies." Richard James fumed: "How long does it take to get the message across that a Tram system is the most effective and cheapest option??!!!!! Money wasted by Bristol City Council on useless alternatives over the last 40 or so years (including the 'underground')." Bbski vented: "Stop spending money on these surveys! We seem to be spending a fortune on bus lanes and bike lanes that don't seem to work. "Let's look at the vehicles that we drive, most are huge due to the 'crash protection' and far too powerful, who needs 0 to 60 in 5 secs, tax them out of existence! ". Dizzy1 said: "It's strange how many things that were done in the past that were decommissioned and destroyed are now making a return. We had a mass transit system once before many years ago, maybe they should have left it running back then." And Junius 1 said: "Alternatives to an underground should have been explored way back in 2017, If this had been the case, things would be well progressed by now and the West of England would have benefitted from a mass transit central funding pot. "Mass transit should result in faster, cleaner and more convenient travel throughout the city, significantly cutting the need for car journeys." However, Katiem questioned the practicality of trams. They said: "Trams will force cars off roads that are not wide enough for both. I am not sure why a good bus system does not fill the void." Title: Re: underground plans for Bristol update. Post by: TonyK on August 04, 2024, 20:45:44 Made The Express (via MSN) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/famous-uk-city-could-get-huge-new-tram-network-after-18bn-scheme-shelved/ar-AA1ocONP?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=8ced4149d6204e1a8f95a310550bcdbd&ei=87), no less.... One could be forgiven for thinking that the Express hasn't noticed that there was an election and that anything not already being built isn't going to get built. Or that the promised £100 million disappeared somewhere last October, according to Bristol Live elsewhere. It's a bit of a lazy story, being a rehash of the Post article and a bit of copy-and-paste from the comments, and probably wouldn't have appeared at all if anything else more interesting was happening. I applaud the idea, but this article won't set hearts racing. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. 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