Great Western Coffee Shop

A number of Welsh Politicians are unhappy that the new IET trains have no bilingual signs. GWR have responded that this is no different from the existing HST fleet.

It's a very difficult article to cut and paste so here's a link

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/wont-any-welsh-language-signs-13814106

There are no bilingual signs on the HSTs or any other stock that GWR runs into Wales currently, so it isn't a step backwards. (Maybe a couple of units show Caerdydd Canolog on matrix destinations on the front, but I can't say I've seen those recently either.)

If they don't want the new trains I'm sure there are enough other lines they can be used on and South Wales passengers can change at Bristol instead. 

These trains can change their source of energy for propulsion on the fly, so surely a simple software mod can be made to the displays so they go into bi-mode language as the trains leave England. The pre-recorded announcements could also be programmed to kick into bi-mode mid way through the Severn Tunnel.  :P

Despite a huge effort and money being thrown at it over the last 40 years, the language is in decline, and that's from a relatively low base. I grew up in Cardiff and you only had to look at which way all the tv aerials in the street were pointed (to the Mendip, not Wenvoe, transmitter) to know what people wanted.

I wonder do airlines into Cardiff Airport have bilingual announcements or literature on board?

99% of customers of these trains in Wales will at worst not care a jot and more likely be pleased to have not to have the language rammed down their throat to pander for a very vociferous minority. 

Calon Lân, John R.  ;) :D ;D

What's a pure heart got to do with it?

It's always sung in Welsh.  ;)

Sorry, that was perhaps something of an 'in joke', posted here as I know John R personally.  He is a keen Wales rugby supporter.  :-X

Whist I agree with you with regards to South Wales (I would class this as the area south and east of the A465 road) where Welsh speaking is a minority activity, appearing to be favoured by a certain demographic trying to make a point (the Welsh they speak is also truly, truly weird). Take yourself off to Gwynedd or Anglesey, you'll find over 90% of residents speak first language Welsh, so dual language signage is arguably more significant up there. Similar levels of first language Welsh exist in many area of Powys, Ceredigion and north Pembrokeshire. It's not really a one size fits all concerning language in the little principality and there is still collective memory of a time when people were forced not to speak Welsh in schools, active anglicisation of place names and so on, which perhaps explains some of the sensitivity of this subject a little. But that digresses somewhat from the topic.

Is it? Granted I don't live there anymore, but I was under the impression that thanks to it being pushed quite a lot in schools, the language is actually increasing in use from what it was, especially amongst younger people.

And then of course you have the other bits of Wales where Welsh is the main language (as mentioned by chrisr_75).

Not at all. Despite all the money being thrown at it, it continues to decline as was very clear from the census. The results were accepted by all, even if the theories behind the decline differ.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-20701119

I would concur with these comments. In those areas where Welsh dominates it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for bilingual signage.  But in South East Wales?  I am reminded of Switzerland where in German speaking parts of the country, there is no requirement to have French signage (and I presume vice versa).

If GWR name an IET set "Y Cymro / The Welshman" and add dragon decals, that will at least match the current Welshness of the HST fleet.

I thought I had heard that the 800s weren't being named?

Queen Elizabeth
Queen Victoria

It seems very reasonable to insist that trains operating in Wales should have bilingual signage. It seems very unreasonable to suggest that any train that might operate in Wales should have bilingual signage. But if it's just a matter of configuring software based on route and location, then GWR should consider that.

The key to this is the word reasonable; if you're not careful you end up with the utter absurdity of utility companies putting up Welsh-first warning signs in Bristol. And that's not a joke, by the way; they do!

Also 800 004 named Isambard Kingdom Brunel / Sir Daniel Gooch, with more to follow I understand.

A bit rich, given that they have the Welsh for "husband" written on the side of all the trains. And "outskirts", so they know where the train goes after leaving Cardiff Central. First have even demonstrated the opportunity-opening nature of the new services by naming the trains "gate" in Welsh.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel
Daniel Gooch

As for Welsh signs - the IETs are missing a few English ones - including one for where to load bikes and marking the crew door behind the cab as "Not for passenger use".

No the accent over the w is important it changes the meaning


See you do know the difference the accent makes.  Presumable you consider West Wales the edge of the world.

Agree that GWR and ATW are and should be different as to the degree of Welshness they show.  However, once GWR have got the trains introduced properly (which ought to be the priority at the moment), it would not be unreasonable to include something on naming them which gives a connection to all of the areas they serve including Wales. 

Not entirely correct as I believe two current GWR HST power cars that have not yet moved north of the border carry names in the Welsh language....
43140  Landore Diesel Depot 1963 Celebrating 50 Years 2013 / Depo Diesel Gandwr 1963 Dathu 50 Mylnedd 2013;
43141  Cardiff Panel Signal Box 1966-2016 / Blwch Signalau Panel Caerdydd 1966-2016

All IETs will be named after people from the areas GWR serve and there are plenty of Welshies on the list.

I suspect all the names may have been chosen judging by Rob T's comments - in case not, I looked up a list of famous people from my home town - and two in particular strike me as having a steam engine and / or railway connection too.  Alternatively, there's a name there famous for making sh*t less of a problem, and his could be a fitting name for one of the trains too.  Better not choose Andy Park; we would be sen to be encouraging a Christlas day service every day of the year!   From Wikipedia:

Now that's something to have on your tombstone: 'Pioneer of the earth closet'. Excellent.

I was surprised how old this story was (31/10/2008)

E-mail error ends up on road sign
Mis-translated bilingual road sign
The English is clear enough to lorry drivers - but the Welsh reads "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated."

When officials asked for the Welsh translation of a road sign, they thought the reply was what they needed.
Unfortunately, the e-mail response to Swansea council said in Welsh: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated".
So that was what went up under the English version which barred lorries from a road near a supermarket.
"When they're proofing signs, they should really use someone who speaks Welsh," said journalist Dylan Iorwerth.
   
 It's good to see people trying to translate but they should really ask for expert help.

Swansea council got lost in translation when it was looking to halt heavy goods vehicles using a road near an Asda store in the Morriston area.

All official road signs in Wales are bilingual, so the local authority e-mailed its in-house translation service for the Welsh version of: "No entry for heavy goods vehicles. Residential site only".

The reply duly came back and officials set the wheels in motion to create the large sign in both languages.
The notice went up and all seemed well - until Welsh speakers began pointing out the embarrassing error.


The sign was lost in translation - and is now missing from the roadside
Managing editor Mr Iorwerth said: "We've been running a series of these pictures over the past months.
"They're circulating among Welsh speakers because, unfortunately, it's all too common that things are not just badly translated, but are put together by people who have no idea about the language.
"It's good to see people trying to translate, but they should really ask for expert help.
"Everything these days seems to be written first in English and then translated.
"Ideally, they should be written separately in both languages."


A council spokeswoman said: "Our attention was drawn to the mistranslation of a sign at the junction of Clase Road and Pant-y-Blawd Road.
Other confusing signs
"We took it down as soon as we were made aware of it and a correct sign will be re-instated as soon as possible."

The blunder is not the only time Welsh has been translated incorrectly or put in the wrong place:
• Cyclists between Cardiff and Penarth in 2006 were left confused by a bilingual road sign telling them they had problems with an "inflamed bladder".

• In the same year, a sign for pedestrians in Cardiff reading 'Look Right' in English read 'Look Left' in Welsh.

• In 2006, a shared-faith school in Wrexham removed a sign which translated the Welsh for staff as "wooden stave".

• Football fans at a FA Cup tie between Oldham and Chasetown - two English teams - in 2005 were left scratching their heads after a Welsh-language hoarding was put up along the pitch. It should have gone to a match in Merthyr Tydfil.

• People living near an Aberdeenshire building site in 2006 were mystified when a sign apologising for the inconvenience was put up in Welsh as well as English

I'd always put that down to simply using whatever signs they had to hand, as opposed to any sort of policy.

I'll suggest Windsor Davies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/arts/sites/windsor-davies/).  :)

Since the (at least around these parts of the WR area) is Gas Distributor is Wales and West Utilities (the clue is in the name) it is not unreasonable that gangs around Bristol might work both sides of the border. 

Similarly Western Power Distribution, which is the Electricity distribution network operator in Bristol and further West also covers South Wales. 

Now if you saw a Wessex Water or Bristol Water sign in Welsh that would be a surprise. 

Oh Dear! How Sad! What a Pity! Never Mind! Luvly Boy!   :D ;D

Not unreasonable that they should work either side of the Hafren, but ludicrous to put up Welsh-first warning signs in Bristol. For the record, the top ten languages spoken in Bristol are, in order: English, Polish, Somali, Chinese (all variants), Urdu, French, Spanish, Punjabi, Arabic, Bengali.

I suspect there are more speakers of some of those languages in Cardiff than Welsh speakers!

If you had asked the question in the 1970's I am sure you would have been correct even if you compared it to the use other languages now.  However, I think you would be surprised at how much Welsh is spoken in Cardiff.  3 out of the 18 state secondary schools in Cardiff are Welsh Medium Schools. 

"Oes yna unrhyw un yno? Cnoc unwaith ar gyfer ie..."

According to official stats (https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Welsh-Language/WelshSpeakers-by-LocalAuthority-Gender-DetailedAgeGroups-2011Census), just over 11% of people in Cardiff can speak Welsh. How many of these have Welsh as their first language doesn't appear to be recorded.

Less than a handful I would suggest. Bear in mind that the largest proportion of those who say they can speak the language are in school or recently left school. Given the language is compulsory that is hardly surprising. How many bother to keep the language going is another matter, but it helps increase the figures and makes the language appear more meaningful than is actually the case.

Yes Cardiff is not highest proportion of Welsh speakers in Wales. But Welsh medium schools are an indication of a number of young people who choose Welsh as their first language. There is of course more than one Welsh language television production company based in Cardiff. 

On a practical point if utility companies in Wales have to have two different sets of signs one with English first and the other with Welsh first or if gangs working across the border have to have bi-lingual and English only signs that will add to costs and may even put the van over the legal weight.

Perhaps the people of Bristol would prefer to wait longer for utility repairs in order that the gang can go back to the depot to change the signs. 

Given how the politics of identity work, that may very well be the case.


Source: Adge Cutler

They are actually chosen by the parents (not the children) typically middle class, who believe their children will get a better primary education by choosing a Welsh language medium school. Most revert to English for the next stage, as the confidence doesn't extend to getting a decent education in the exams that matter.

Not forgetting Brizzle ! :D

Umm I was talking about Welsh Medium secondary schools.  (see below)

Did Psychic Sally go to a Welsh Medium School?

But there's no legal requirement to put signs in any of those languages (other than English), though I have seen signs in Somali when Junction 3 development was under construction. The utilities are legally required to have signs in Welsh and English when they're in Wales and there's no legal bar on using them in other parts of the UK, so if the bilingual signs happen to be at the top of the pile (assuming it's even worth their while having others), that's what they use. In practice the signs don't always accurately relate to what's going on, so it's a moot point whether any languages are reasonable.

The acknowledgement of the Welsh language across rail services is very patchy and distinctly odd in the way it is distributed (or at least that is how it comes across to a rail user in Wales).

For instance, at Newport, which probably is the least Welsh speaking town in Wales, the screens show all services fully and separately in both Welsh and English, and all announcements are bilingual.

Whereas, on Arriva Trains services in north Wales, serving areas where Welsh is spoken by large numbers (and for some smaller stops such as those in Anglesey it will be the language spoken by most as their first language), announcements on the trains are only in English.

All of the three people I know who went to a Welsh medium secondary school can speak good Welsh, but none of them would regard Welsh as their first language. 

If GWR did that, the Cornish would want their language on its IET's, then people in Somerset and Bristol would want an announcer with a local accent. One standard announcer should be used across the IET sets as is being done!

My vote would be for an Adge Cutler sound-a-like.

Mine, too: Adge grew up, and is buried, in Nailsea.  :'(

Looking wider, many new passengers to Newcastle would miss their stop because they couldn't understand Geordie!

I remember being on a bus going up the Gloucester Rd in Bristle and the driver being unable to understand two Geordies who got on by Zetland Rd. That was over twenty years ago, mind.*

*And far more recently, a woman from Preston was telling one from Rochdale she'd been in the South West too long because she was saying "mind" at the end of sentences; at which a bloke from Sunderland (also long term resident here) pointed out people commonly use that in the North East.