Great Western Coffee Shop

Okay, so there was a fatality and it was chaos.  Got on at Reading - still very busy but there is standing room in standard.

So why is first class full of standard class ticket holders sitting down and blocking the ailses.  TM is more bothered about doing the short platform announcement - we havent even got to Oxford yet FFS.

Come down, check tickets, hoof them back to standard - then we might, just might, get a trolley down first.

It may be uncharitable but if they want to take the extra space, they should pay for it.

Sorry But i get the impression the network is in chaos. How busy was standard OOI?

How do you know about the SC situation? How do you know those peolple didn't have FC tickets?

To REading it was chaos - I can understand

But there is standing room in standard class - no reason standard ticket holders should be down here taking our space and blocking the trolley.  They may have more room but they would fit in standard (and most in buffet are foreign students anyway)

I know about SC because I could see the carriages as they came in (and I just went to take a look)

i know they dont have FC tickets because they are boasting about it "normal service should be suspended tonight, we'll just stay here"

They are suspending my normal service - I have no problem IF THEY PAY THE PREMIUM

Will getting them to buy your beloved white wine on that service keep you quiet, or is that out of stock already?  :P

On a serious note, i'm sure the TM will come and get them to move out when he gets to his ticket checking.

The upshot of what I am trying to say is........

They could be removed from FC - SC has space available

Because of the overcrowding and standing, FC can have no trolley (which is part of the service)

The space we pay a premium for is being reduced by people who have not paid said premium

Yet no effort is being made to remove them to SC

It would be different, as I said, if there was no space at all as there was none from PAD to RDG but there is so they should go

Words fail me.  ::)

There is a travel option that I think fulfils your needs for personal space and to be kept at a distance from The Oiks, it's called a car.

I would like to put my personal opinion on this:
I have travelled in First Class for free twice before.
Both times on trains from Plymouth-Camborne after football matches. The trains are packed. Standing room only in SC would be an exagerration, there was no room seating or standing. Both times the TM told people trying to get on to get on in FC and sit down.
I think SC passengers should be allowed on FC rather than not get on.
And as you didn't see how busy the train got after Reading you can't say how busy it is really.

Finally - as we pulled out of oxford I actually located him (had previously mentioned to buffet staff to suggest the ticket check).

Couldnt do it as stations to close together and had to get to front to do SDO.

End result was he did a tannoy announcement indicating that any SC holders in FC would be charged the full FC fare - cleared them out pretty sharpish

As we pulled out of reading I specifically walked down  carriages E, D and to the entrance to C - plenty of spaces.

SC should be given the option - get on in FC and pay or don't get on - their choice.  One of the reasons I dont go Virgin - their habit of declassifying FC in busy periods.

Then I couldnt have time wasting activities like this on the way home!

I dont mind sharing space - I have a problem with paying a premium for a service then having people who do not pay reducing my service at no extra cost to them

Wait a minute, let me just get this straight. Following an afternoon of chaos caused by a fatality at Southall leading to multiple cancellations and delays that are still severe right now at 19:40, you were so pissed off that the first class trolley service couldn't make it down the aisle because bloody commoners were in the way that not only did you complain to the buffet staff but also track down the train manager and moan at him too? Jesus, I'd get down to the Doc and get my blood pressure checked if I were you  :o

Edit: AND you walked half way down the train just to give yourself more ammo for the moaning? Feck on a stick!

:D Yeah I bet it did!

I could tell many similar stories to Mookie's, being fortunate enough to be in the position of being a regular first class traveller myself. Most of the time the TM does a brilliant job in advising people - usually foreigners - that they are in the wrong section, but sometimes they are conspicuous only by their absence, and I have a very real worry is that someday there's going to be an "uprising". The closest I ever saw was on a train from Reading to Bristol TM when the First Class section was invaded by "chavs", for want of a better word. For a while the pay-through-the-nose customers already in there grumbled amongst themselves, but some of them had obviously been drinking - they were coming back from a cricket match I think - it was the end of a long day, words were exchanged, and things started to get ugly. Must confess, I took the coward's way out and headed down to the buffet and then went and stood out of the way in Standard Class,  seatless and still clutching my ^175 return ticket, so I never did find out what happened. Never saw a TM or any other member of the crew either (the buffet had stayed shut).

No - I asked the buffet staff was there going to be a ticket check at Reading - they said yes

As I was in the buffet I wandered down to see if there was any space - there was - if there wasnt, then I would not have said anything!

Then as he was doing his announcement in the buffet, I asked him if he was planning to sort out the mess that was FC - so he said he'd do a tannoy announcement - took 30 seconds and it worked.  Job solved.  Could have been done at Reading

Am I the only one who resents paying for a service and seeing freeloaders get it for nothing - I know I'm not because some of you feel the same way about fair dodgers as I do here

Maybe next time there is severe disruption, people should be allowed to board without paying at all as, well, there is disruption you know

What did i say? ;)

They too probably thought it best to stay out of it as well.

No you are not Mookiemoo and I'm sure when some of the traincrew who post on this site drop by they will agree also.

Before you spoke to the train manager, had you considered that the oiks might have gained his permission to sit in first class due to the overcrowding?

Which is one of the reasons I spoke to him as I wanted to find out - and they hadnt

Sorry I'm not sympathetic on this one.

Cram all the standard class passengers into the vestibules in standard so they aren't near First?

You checked after Reading in standard which is commonly Reading where alot of it clears anyway.

You should try being more lenient during times of disruption.

The point was - I GOT ON AT READING I AM NOT DOING PAD UNTIL AT LEAST AUGUST

There were plenty of spaces

but FC was still full - 75% of whom were SC passengers

Why did they not move to SC as per their ticket when there were spaces free

I was not complaining about the situation PAD to RDG - even I understand that since most earlier trains were cancelled

Ahh sorry didn't get that bit, thought you travelled from Pad.

Of course (and this bears nothing to my personal opinion of course ;)!) one very easy way to stop this problem would be to axe First Class and have 2 carriages more of seats.

The only times I have travelled FC for free was when I asked the TM on an extremely busy service, he said yes if we were quite, moved for FC customers and moved to standard when there was space. Problem solved.
I also think FC vestibules and carriages should be made available for Standard passengers to stand up in during overcrowding. They don't get to enjoy FC but do get to breathe.

And I would just move to virgin or someone else

The only reason doing what I do is practicable is because I have a mobile office in the way of FC

If I couldnt use my laptop and papers I would not do it - full stop

I dont understand why british culture has such a problem with first class - it operates perfectly well on services elsewhere without the animosity it accrues

Actually - what pissed me off was being in the rugby scrum at reading, being frowned at for making sure I was near the door of F and then, having an argument with an SC passenger who thought because they got to the seat first they had the right to sit down when I had an FC ticket and they were expecting me to stand

It was made worse by the other SC passengers in the cabin encouraging them and saying that they had every right to as classification should be halted in tonights situation!

That was red rag to bull - two people - one who pays twice as much as the other is expected to stand (remove the trolley and other aspects for a minute) whilst a reduced price passenger sits.

 

We dont/ british society dont.

We just have a problem with you ranting on about it over the slightest thing, and making it look like you see the people in SC as "scum".

Especially when it was in that situation because of someone who took there own life on the railway. Where the situation is no fault of the TOCS.

Excuse the bluntness, but i couldnt think of a nice way to put it :p

I dont see them as scum

I just think people who pay a premium should get a premium service

With the refurb and power socket in SC I seriously considered going SC - until I realised what would happen on the days it goes wrong - and then I reconsidered

British society does have a problem with people who pay for a premium service getting annoyed when they dont get it - believe me,.  It the same attitude that has the middle classes reviled )and I am not one- I am working class born and bred) because they use their opportunities to benefit them and their off spring - I dont see anything wrong with it - if you have it, use it

well i use first class quite a lot i personally dont see what you're ranting and raving about when issues like this happen.

Because I paid a premium and suffered because people who paid less got the same service I got for a good duration of the journey

Maybe I just think - pay more = better treatment

But that is why I normally go private and not NHS

May I step in, here, please?

I agree with Mookiemoo that paying for a first class ticket on a train perhaps entitles one to the expectation of a certain level of service - but could we please cool it slightly over the wider issues of 'class', here?

Thanks!

Yeah and I think people who pay for a service full stop should get a service. I think it is rubbish that I can pay ^8.60 for a 25 minute journey and end up standing all the way through a 40 minute delayed journey on a train that is too small for its purpose but these things happen, get over it.

In a situation where someone has died and thousands of other people have been delayed by several hours, your posts read as though you are moaning that your personal space that you paid a premium for was encroached upon and that you had to get off your backside to go get your complimentary cup of hot brown instead of having it trolleyed direct to your seat. Also I don't think you'll find that the NRCC nor FGWs own conditions say anywhere that ANY ticket will guarantee you enough space to operate a mobile office from the train. You choose to commute so far that you have to work on the train. Don't get angry when it doesn't work out for you from time to time.

Time to turn the heat down on this, I feel, and could I politely suggest that less swearing would be helpful, please.

Chris has already had to moderate this, and the team would rather not lock a valid and interesting topic.

Take a deep breath please, everybody.

In a way i agree with mookiemoo on this. When I'm working a train that gets delayed through no fault of FGW(it does happen occasionally!) you often get passengers get on and try to refuse to pay, quoting the fact that you are 20 mins late as a reason. I normally respond with the would you refuse to pay on a bus/airplane/taxi scenario if they were 20 mins late? Luckily, as only work on units, I don't have the FC/SC problem, though i always laugh when i'm asked where on a 150 the first class coach is! the normal reply is 'all of our services are first class sir/madam!'

Have toned down my language  :)

But the original post on this thread was always going to stir up some emotion, wasn't it?

I^m with Mookiemoo on this, it^s probably a bit unfortunate that a fatality was the cause in this instance, as pointed out the delay hadn^t been a cause of any overcrowding in standard, and I would have been equally as annoyed knowing that there were passengers taking advantage of FC when they hadn^t paid for it, with absolutley no reason to be there, and it makes no difference how nice they are.

If I^d paid for a trolley to come past and give me my tea then I would expect to see the trolley.

Yes but last night I'd paid for a train to come past at 18:30 and I expected it to do so, but it didn't arrive until 19:00. Sometimes I expect a train to arrive and it doesn't arrive at all. Often I pay for a ticket and expect to get a seat but I don't. Whinging about the lack of a trolley service? Jeez.  ::)

If this is a success then that may be all we have left TO complain about.  ;D

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1862.0

(BTW we didn't have a trolley on the 18.09 Filton/Portsmouth last night  :'( )

I was waiting at Temple Meads for the delayed 1807 to Avoncliff. Your train was allowed to go in front of mine ;D

We eventually left Bristol around 1830.....

We left a few at Filton who were waiting for that one, they thought ours was it when it arrived.

It's tight timings between the two services as we quite often have to wait for that one to clear Trowbridge as we've caught up with it by then.

You see - I do exactly the same

I pay for a train to leave on time - yesterday for example, the 0632 was canned.  I also pay for the train to run on time - it doesnt.

So even at a premium price - FC still have to put up with both of those issues same as every one else.  Then to have no trolley.......

I can see what Mookimoo is getting at Doesn't like standard class tickets holders sitting in First Class seats without paying the premium too right Is a little like a Standard Class punter watching the hoodies from Slough etc boarding train without tickets ( and no intention of buying them) at all!

By the way a Standard class passenger shouldn't even be STANDING in First Class (including the vestibules) unless they are willing to upgrade their ticket!

The Train Manager should do as I did when I was a clippie turf em out and whip back that Evening Standard when he does so too, because the paper is a perk for the premium paying passenger not all and sundry!!;D

Its not even that harsh even.

In times of disruption where there are trains cancelled etc, then I have no problem with them using FC if SC is a sardine can.

Where the problem came in was after Reding there were spaces in SC - plenty of them, but still SC were sitting and standing in FC when there were SEATS in SC and the TM was more concerned as we pulled out of Reading with announcing all the short platforms up the cotswolds line (before we had even go to Oxford!)

He had no intention of doing anything until I got him to make the tannoy announcement - which cleared them out and we got a trolley service by Charlbury!

I have to say I agree with Mookiemoo on this one, one thing that annoys me lately is people going to Lostwithiel, because of the SDO they have to leave the train through coaches G and H, but most people think they can sit there from Penzance! NO! all that means is that they can walk through First class when they get there. A ticket is simply a contract of travel and does not guarentee you a seat, in fact, it does not guarentee to get you to a certain place by a certain time, nor does it guarentee you travel on a train, it simply guarentees you that the "company" will transport you from A to B, people who pay big money for first class have every right to exclusive use of the first class carriages, thats what they're paying for!

I'm with Mookiemoo and Vacman on this, When the Train service has died, on it's back with all wheels in the air, IF a service is crowded then if the TM puts SC in FC so be it, but as soon as SC thins out then the SC in FC get sent back to SC.

The miss use of FC by SC ticket holders or worse SCUM fare dodgers is far to common.

Two suggestions I would like to see FGW do are:

1 When services leave stations First Class Carriages should be ticket checked First and not last which is far more common as the TM's office is as far from FC as it can be.
OK this isn't possible when stops are frequent every 1/2 hour or less.

2 When a FC trolley is provided then the Trolley staff should check that the passengers in FC have FC tickets, even trolley dollies can read 1st or standard on a ticket.

Its a nightmare on the cotswolds - if the ticket check isnt done by REading, rest assured it wont be as the stops are every 7 or so minutes


That is certain what cross country do - I went cross country bristol to birmingham and before the host in FC would serve me anything, I had to show my ticket

This is spooky, are FGW watching the forum too closely, from todays service changes, I may be wrong but I don't think I've seen trolley announcements before.

They have done catering announcements before, although I've only ever seen them do it on the past for HSS.

With the reliabaility of the Local PMH-CDF trolley crew, there will be hundreds of network updates now!

Maybe this is part of the problem with rail in Britain, as you say, its just a contract of travel.  Not being funny, but if I buy a rail ticket and want to get somewhere by a certain time, I expect to ride on a train (ideally a nice big blue one!) and get there around the time I would hope for.  I understand that there are a huge amount of circumstances that might prevent this (through no fault of anyone) but rail is not a "cheap" alternative and should be generally meetings one's expectations, be they a FC or a SC customer.

You say rail isn't a cheap option? do some comparisons on local journeys, weekly season PNZ-TRU is about ^25, so ^5 per day if doing 5 days, 26 miles by rail, about 40 mins,
same journey by car, anything up to an hour in the peak, about ^14 in fuel, about ^6 to park for the day, wear and tear on your car, road tax is ^? per year, insurance if worked out on a daily basis etc.....you may be paying about ^25 per day! It's different all over the country but the southwest is far cheaper than driving.

Totally agree, haven't owned a car for 3 years.

That's why I get the train - far cheaper than driving. Drive to work = ^12 in petrol alone. Train and lift = ^6.50 - even less if I go somewhere on my season ticket at the weekend and factor that in!

Full price Newton Abbot to Ashford Int. is about ^77 - with YP Railcard, it is ^50ish. It costs me about ^60 in petrol alone - and the A303/M3/M25/M26 are a nightmare in summer.

That said, there are some seriously pricey routes but like Vacman says, the Southwest is very cheap for train travel - local media prejudice and FGW bashing puts people off though. Read a report in the Herald the other day with some high-almighty guy slating FGW quoting a lady who vowed never to use FGW again because she had to take the tube from Paddington to Charing Cross instead of being able to walk over the bridge from Waterloo to Waterloo East - idiot - the guy should never be allowed to write again!  >:(

It certainly is different elsewhere. The equivalent cost from a point between Highbridge and Weston into Bristol (ie which equates to the same mileage as Truro to Penzance) is about ^44, instead of ^25. When you're paying nearly twice as much then you might take a different view.     

And then you get the cotswolds line - cheap compared to say, bristol/cardiff to pad but still expensive - especially in peak hour - and there are no advance purchase options!

There is a guy working for me who does reading/southampton daily for ^10 per day SC  - if he books in advance - fine by me so long as if XC cock up he makes it up the following week.

There are no such options on cotswolds - and to be honest, the morning trains are not that bad and the evening trains are normal beyond reading and dead beyond oxford

That said, I bet thats still cheaper than driving into Bristol and paying for parking 5 days a week. And a lot less hassle.(most of the time!)

I agree with you there GAF71.