Great Western Coffee Shop

hi all
just looking for info on fgw and found this site and was wondering if there was any body here who could help.
i live in gosport and took my wife and 4 month old baby girl down to see her family in plymouth last thursday. the train from portsmouth to westbury wasnt too bad but then we had to find space on the westbury to plymouth train, i saw a space in the buffet car and quced to get on, a dispatch guard said we would better further along so we followed him and got on the train to find he had put us in a door way with nowhere to move to. when we got the the next station we moved to buffet car where i was planning to go and all was fine until my baby filled her nappy and i went to look for and changing room. what a surpize when i found there werent any when i said this to the guard him said " you aer right there isnt any this is the second train train i have been on today that hasnt" not much help to me. i had to change her nappy while she was in her pram as there were no seats in the buffet car.  i could have complained to the staff when i go to plymouth but i just wanted to get my family to my inlaws and settled down.

then we came to the return trip.
plymouth to westbury was great, lovely train loads of room. then we got to westbury and saw the crowd waiting for the porstmouth train. this is going to be fun i said. when the train came in it was only two cars and standing room only.
there was another girl and a pram waiting to get on standing waiting to talk to the staion manager.
i asked him how was i suppose to get on the train and he said "you cant thats the risk you take to see if there is room". i came back with even if i could get on where would i put the pram, he said "there isnt anywhere to put it".
i then asked him if the next train was likey to be the same and he said "yes we only run two cars on sundays". i said then how am i suppose to get my family home he said "just wait to see if there is any room you might be able to push in".
there were able 30 people who couldnt get on that train how many would be waiting for the next one??
i then tried a different apoatch. i said to him that i had a seat booked on that train (which i did) and how was i going to get it, he said "that dosent mean anything it dosnt mean you will get a seat" surly that is why you book a seat i said "doent mean anything" he said.
by this time i was a bit p***ed off and said well how do i have to complain to he said he would get me a form "for all the good it will do you"
i decided to get a taxi home as i couldnt wait around allnight on the of chance that we might be able to get on a train and the fact the the toleits were closed so i could sort my baby out and asked him were they were "down there" he replied down where i dont live here " down the stairs and there should be one"
we when downstairs and luckly there was a portsmouth taxi there who had dropped of a FGW guard who had missed his train. it cost ^140 to get my family home.

we are writing letters to FGW and to keiven gale who is the trains director for FGW and also to the portsmouth News and the plymouth herald. can any body give me some advice as to where i stand?

many thanks   

Hi, Bruce ... welcome to the forum.

In general, I'm afraid you'll find that you have only limited redress - train operating companies are not required to provide services that everyone who turns up and wants to use them can actually fit onto, but rather services to a specification that's laid down as part of their franchise - and that's (I'm afraid to say) 2 car trains on Cardiff - Portsmouth.  Under the previous operator, 3 car trains were operated on the route as the number of customers who wished to travel exceeded the capacity of the 2 car units for much of the day, but when their competitor bid to take the service over they relied on old figures for traffic levels and government forecasts of growth that was less taht a tenth of what actually happened.

The question on reserved seats is an interest one - not sure of the compensation / status if you've bought reserved seats on a train (which implies you have space thereon) but can't get to them due to crowds.  Can anyone else answer on that?

When you buy a train ticket, you enter a contract for the railway to transport you from A to B, they do not guarantee a seat. As far as I'm aware, if you have a seat reservation, it is purely complimentary and is not guaranteed to be available. I can't remember whether it has been changed but AFAIK you have up to 8 minutes from the departure of the train from your reservation origin station, before it can be taken by someone else officially.

Hi Bruce and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear you had such a poor journey home yesterday but sadly thats the way things are on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route right now. Groups like MTLS raise attention to problems with Mon-Fri  services used by commuters but no one highlights the problems of extreme overcrowding at weekends on this line with passengers often being left behind at stations.

Its ridiculous that FGW don't run more than two cars on Sundays when there is spare stock sitting idle in sidings not being used. Yes I'm aware that there has to be a time for maintainance to take place but that doesn't mean every spare unit needs to be held back. I can understand them not having enough stock during the week with the intense timetable being operated but there is no excuse for that on Sundays. Just needs some sensible diagramming to ensure the stock is in the right place come Monday morning.

We'll raise your journey with Andrew Haines, CEO of first when we see him in a couple of weeks . Weekend trains are often far more overcrowded than weekday trains, and your experience occurs with regularity on Saturdays and Sundays. This is simply becasue FGW is saving money. They have the extra rolling stock parked up to make longer trains in the week, but choose not to use it.
Tony, More Trains Less Strain

2 158s are parked up on Sunday mornings in Weymouth - excellent use of stock there ... there from Saturday night til 1400 at Weymouth, could probably be put to better use on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route. Although running an additional Westbury to Southampton Central then running ECS to Weymouth might be a good idea, I doubt FGW would play ball with that what with route knowledge.

And Tony, there isn't that much rolling stock spare, a few more extra on SPM for maintenance and perhaps another spare at Westbury or something similar to that is probably all that is available... unless you have evidence showing otherwise?

Welcome to the forum Bruce, sorry to hear of your experience. It's safe to say the Portsmouth-Cardiff trains on a Sunday are something of a lottery with FGW and most of us on the forum have had their fair share of being in packed coaches or even denied access to trains. Hopefully you might get some compensation vouchers back from FGW, but unfourtunately I would doubt they would refund the taxi fare.

Your best bet should you need to travel again would be to try and use South West Trains to Plymouth via the  Salisbury - Axminster - Exeter route. Try and avoid FGW as much as you can on a sunday.

If you have a reservation and don't get a seat (either the reserved seat or another one) FGW's passenger charter says they will refund the full cost of the single journey.

Theres a ^50 fine for anyone who refuses to move from your seat iirc, so if you have one booked, and get on. It's all yours.

As Swlines asks prehaps you can give us all some facts as to where this extra stock is parked up to ?,why its there?how long it stays there etc.
because saving money and choosing not to use it. mean absolutely nothing unless you can actually provide hard facts and evidence to substantiate your claims

Yeh if the ticket is put on the seat, which on Portsmouth-Cardiff trains they largely aren't. Then I don't think the reservation stands.

The fact that you could not use your reserved seat is ridiculous! Personally I would have demanded to sit down in it as I have some paper telling me its mine!

Surely it should still stand as you have a ticket reservation given to you when you book your tickets.

When the Resrvation Ticket printer has broken down before the screens read No Seat Reservations Available and onboard they tell you that there are no reservations and to sit everywhere.

Reserving seats on Cardiff-Portsmouth trains at the moment is a pointless exercise. If there is a seat you sit in it so you can allow others to actually get on the train. You probably have little chance of getting anywhere near your reserved seat anyway as no one can move its so rammed full.

The other week I was on the Portsmouth-Cardiff service, I got on at BTM and off when it terminated at Cardiff. Someone asked this bloke to move from where he was sitting as it was reserved and he did. It seems not all trains on this service dont have the reserved signs put out.

Where are these extra unit's then? you seem to alk a lot of rubbish but never provide any evidence to back it up?

He's in MTLS.

of course he does, its all about the propaganda to spread lies in the papers to make FGW sound bad ;)

I expect they'll find something negative to say about the latest improvements, or they'll try and claim the glory for it.

And they'll get shot down by the government/ fgw about them having nothing to do with it? (as usual)

No matter what your views on MTLS are, you must agree that the service experienced by Bruce on the Sunday was clearly unacceptable (not 'propaganda' in the slightest) and FGW need to do -something- to reduce overcrowding on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route on that day.

Also, MTLS wouldn't criticise something they themselves have campaigned for...I'm sure if it wasn't for their help these improvements wouldn't have happened.

I wasnt referring to the service, of course thats unacceptable.

I'm referring to the post tonya made on this page, about how first have loads of imaginary trains sat in sidings 7 days a week

I undestand that FGW wouldn't have the extra capacity weekdays and saturday, but just out of interest, FGW run less services on Sundays (as do all tocs) ...surely there are some spare carriages around?  ???

Always up when I use them and I've only stood once - in wessex days with a 2 car ;)  ;D

Then all I can say is that you have been really, really lucky....

Wasn't disagreeing with the bad (well, appaling!) service on sunday, just pi**es me off when MTLS try and jump on the bandwagon, as for Cardifff Pompey services, well they are to be improved, don't know if you've heard!! ;)

What is happening to Cardiff-Portsmouth services are they bigging increased from 2 to 4 car trains hopefully so, or are we to see a return of 3car 158 units, which where lost when FGW took over.
Whilst 4 car (2x2) sets are an improvement, I don't see how restoring 3 car units is an Improvement, thats only restoring what was taken away.

Hello,
I'm looking for people with nightmare train journeys. I'm a researcher with a production company based in London. If you've had any train horror stories please get in touch with me. My email address is marsdencaroline@hotmail.com. Looking forward to hearing your tales... Caroline.

NO .........and i would not tell you even if i had

Caroline, I get the press calling me from time to time looking for horror stories with which to bash train companies over the head and that leaves me in something of a quandry - on one hand I dearly want to get publicity to help highlight issues that need to be resolved, but on the other hand I want - I REALLY want - to work with the train companies and others to help sort things out amicably.

As well as the strong reaction from "Dogbox", your post has been notified to me as the board administrator by others who are also concerned at your post as they feel that it's inappropriate.   As adminstrator, I also have the unique ability to see where you're posting from and it's way "out of area" - so I might suggest that you would do better making a more discreet approach to people, and to do so more locally to where you live - a horror journey down here is not going to be as revelant to you as one on your own doorstep, 200 miles to the North, would be.

By the way - I can tell you about an 8 hour delay I suffered comming into St Pancras some 30 years ago - a ripping yarn that one, and if you're researching something along the "folk tales" lines I have a few others, such as the time the overhead electic cables came down on top of the train I was in anw whiplash / broke the windows.  p.m. me or email me if you want more on these!

Graham

Graham, that reminds me of a trip I was doing down the West Coast Mainline several years ago. There was a fire in the Euston area if I remember correctly. As we were a HST, we were diverted and reversed at Bletchley and Bedford, and went into St Pancras!

Pre or post privatisation?

Pre-privatisation of course, I can't recall any event of that happening completely unplanned post...

Yay! more ways for the press to slate the railways!!!! Why not go and do something positive like find some satisfied customers (I'm not just on about FGW!), the press make it look like every train is always late, cancelled, old dirty and overcrowded and overpriced (how they always quote open return fares when making comparissons etc).

Happen to agree Vacman, I've had many enjoyable and on time rail journeys!

You never (as I always say) read about the good journeys!

There are several examples on here.....as I always say when Jim brings this up  ;D

 :D :D :D Yeah right, carriages (not whole trains) that cost in excess of ^1500 a day each to hire parked up in sidings. That makes great monetary sense that does. I've never in all my days read drivel that's so ridiculous as this. It's no wonder that this lot ain't taken seriously. ???

The poster doesn't even know what Andrew Haines is CEO of, First Great Western or just First!



 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I felt that the 1500 pound figure sounded a bit high - certainly with regard to the trains that I have costed out over the last three years, so I went back to some figures and sources.   I came up with a theoretical figure of around 950 pounds per day for each carriage of a 150, and I would guess that 143 carriages are a little less and 158s a little more. 

The 1500 figure might be about right for a high speed carriage, especially if you factor in the power cars - but then such a carriage is going to travel twice the number of miles in the average minute, so it can make twice the income even if pence per mile were equal - a whole different ballgame to the MTLS one which is not looking at HSTs.

Three more interesting inputs to this discussion:

1. The effect of moving a single carriage from one route to another, where it runs a higher daily mileage, can be a long way over 250 pounds per day. I have the background to this commercial figure but I don't think I ought publish the maths or be move specific.  So if you take a carriage off completely on a "quiet" day it may not be quite so silly from a financial viewpoint - it may save nearly the same amount of money in operating costs as the hire costs.

2. Operating 2 to 4 coach trains that are averaging under 50 m.p.h. including stops, with a fare of between .20 and .30p per mile top whack and many cheaper fares isn't going to make money.  Add this to the previous point and it starts looking like there may be cases that it's better to leave carriages in sidings or ...

3. Trains need servicing.  If there's more demand in some parts of the week than others, does it make economic sense to keep your service depot running for as long as possible - i.e. as perceived in the franchise, to have a maximum of trains in service on Monday to Friday peak hours only.

I'm not taking "sides" here - just adding some background comments to point out that there are perhaps some figures and comments that are a bit over the top all around.  My own philosophy is to work within the system, look to make practical suggestions rather than looking for a change of the system or using a publicity seeking approach.   But then I have to note that since I got involved in the campaign for an appropriate TransWilts service, we have LOST two thirds of the trains, whereas since MTLS started up after the December 2006 cuts, there have been huge gains on their Bristol Commuter lines.  Makes you think, doens't it?

I dont really think Grahame you can give credit to MTLS for any gains made on the Bristol Commuter routes,..its a simple fact FGW/Daft got it wrong initially and have just got the service back to something sensible.
Its much better to work with The movers and shakers in a constructive way instead of seeking sensationalism to further your cause

Jim, Lee .... I have just posted about some great old railway train memories ...

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2016.0

Granted - just as they did on the TransWilts.  That's admitted now but our reasoned pressure and support has not yet corrected the issue even though it will take far less resource to put right than Bristol.