Great Western Coffee Shop

Suprisingly, this is not a moan about the lack of carriages on a GW service! Well it kinder is...

I was coming back from a bash to Bristol Parkway, on the 1O99 1131 Cheltenham Spa - Brighton, and stopped off at Trowbridge to do a quick M&S rush and catch the SWT service on to Salisbury. I was rather suprised when this rolled in formed of a pair of 158s. Anyway, I got a carriage to myself from Westbury onwards and on arrival into Salisbury the guard comes on with "The next stop is Salisbury, where this train will attach to a further 3 carriages for the onward journey to Basingstoke". Bearing in mind this service, the 1O50 1310 off Bristol Temple Meads, does not usually join up at Salisbury and runs through to Waterloo stopping at stations Salisbury - Basingstoke, the addition of extra coaches is a bit of an overkill (especially as it was only going to Basingstoke).

Is it only me who feels the best thing for the Pompey - Cardiff line would be a transfer to SWT? SWT could inherit, say, 6 158s from FGW (including 158798 which could become 159109), and we'd actually have a potentially decent service! What also was quite interesting was how empty the 1310 was, considering alot of people on the outward journey were talking about how they "get the South West back because you get a seat", are these services not advertised or is it that they run at inconvient times?

Hi, thefab442, and welcome to this forum!

You have posed some very interesting questions there ... to which I personally do not have any answers (but I'm just a 'west of Bristol commuter!).

However, knowing the breadth of expertise of our members, I'm sure you will soon see lots of responses to your post!

Best wishes,

Chris.

Hey, I've been browsing about for a bit, but decided to post tonight! :)


Thank god SWT/DafT didn't take out the Bristol services, as it's getting to the point where it'll just be Waterloo - Exeter, what with the removal of the Coastway - Paignton trains! I swear SWT said they would keep these but curtail the one from Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea!

Welcome, Mr JDS.

I'm wandering how SWT would cope without some of their 158 fleet, as currently 2 units are at EMT - Theres always loads of 159s spare so we would probably be able to take 4 158s.

Its not that FGW provide a bad service and SWT would, its simply that FGW have not much stock whilst SWT have far too much!

I'm not sure really, one thing that pisses me off about FGW is the consistent adding of stops! Why do Portsmouth services stop at Bradford-on-Avon - its always packed by then anyway! Similarily why do they stop at Filton Abbey Wood or Cosham? Next thing will be all Portsmouth trains stopping at Keynsham, or Swanwick!

It would be a lot better if all services out of Salisbury were under the control of one operator,

Then surely you could argue the same thing at Bristol TM, Bath, Westbury etc with the off SWT exception!?

This annoys me too. As I've intimated elswehere there is surely enough demand now to reinstate a truly fast Cardiff Portsmouth service, with intermediate stations being served by an hourly Bristol Soton service.   

Oi, Cosham is my local station!!! Even without that caveat, there is a decent amount of passengers who would be inconvenienced by the removal of this stop.

There's a fair old number of Ministry of Defence staff living in the Bradford on Avon/Bath area who would be seriously inconvenienced by the removal of commuter trains to Filton Abbey Wood as well - particularly since the MoD helped fund the station when they compulsorily moved thousands of staff out from London and Bath to Filton a few years ago (along with Andover more recently). Some of those staff will be transferring to the new build MoD HQ at Corsham in 2010, which will probably re-ignite some interesting debates about the reopening of Corsham (nb not Cosham) station then as well.

That's the problem. Having gradually added more stops, there would then be an outcry when stops are taken away to create a truly fast service. But if Wessex felt 3 cars were needed back in 2004, then by 2009 with 6% growth pa (=33% in total), that will mean 4 coaches are needed. But instead of 4 coaches, revert to 2 x 2 car sets. One of these sets covers the existing calling pattern, but the second forms the fast service. Lee, if the stopping service terminated at Soton then clearly the fast would continue to make existing calls onward to Portsmouth.

Maybe I'm just nostalgic for the days when a Class 33 took me from Cardiff to Soton Uni, calling only at Newport, BTM, Bath and Salisbury, but I do think that the main centres of population deserve a faster service than they currently get.       

As you know, I do like to get out and about as easily as possible  ;D (all current circumstances permitting...)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1592.msg10419#msg10419

I do remember the 33's from when I was a kid, and I distinctly remember one of my friends referring to the then-new Sprinters as "spaceships."

Perhaps a case of over-enthusiasm on his part, but they did look somewhat futuristic compared to the other rolling stock we had in the Portsmouth area at the time.

I also recall that stops at (say) Fratton and Trowbridge were by no means universal, and missing either station out now seems almost unthinkable.

Yes, its rather disheartening to go onto that Announcement Archives site and hear things like:

"The Sprinter Express service to Swansea will leave from Platform 4. Calling at Romsey, Salisbury, Warminster, Westbury, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Swansea". (Southampton Central)

"Platform 2 for the Sprinter Express service to Cardiff Central. Calling at Fareham, Southampton, Salisbury, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Newport and Cardiff Central." (Havant)


If I was proposing a timetable, I would say Cosham, Romsey, Warminster, Bradford-on-Avon and Filton Abbey Wood do not really need the current service they get. With the idea of an hourly Soton - Bristol slow, Portsmouth - Cardiff fast and the token Brighton - Cheltenham services, we could have the following calling pattern:

Southampton Central - Bristol Temple Meads, calling at Romsey, Salisbury, Warminster, Dilton Marsh, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bradford-on-Avon, Bath Spa, Oldfield Park, Keynsham and Bristol Temple Meads.'

Then the fast service would have alternating timetables, odd hours fast, even hours semi-fast:

Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff Central fast, calling at Portsmouth & Southsea, Fratton, Fareham, Southampton Central, Salisbury, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Newport and Cardiff Central.

Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff Central semi-fast, calling at Portsmouth & Southsea, Fratton, Cosham, Fareham, Southampton Central, Salisbury, Warminster, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Newport, Filton Abbey Wood and Cardiff Central.

Brighton - Cheltenham Spa additional, calling at Hove, Shoreham-by-Sea, Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Southampton Central, Romsey, Salisbury, Warminster, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bradford-on-Avon, Avoncliff, Freshford, Bath Spa, Bristol Temple Meads, Filton Abbey Wood, Bristol Parkway, Yate, Cam & Dursley, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa.


Its interesting to note that the late night services to Portsmouth don't call at Cosham anyway, is this because FGW expect trouble or the demand isn't there? They say the stop for Bradford-on-Avon is to provide extra capacity, but its always a Wedge-ex by then anyway so how does it help!

Where is this site? A search on google for "Announcement Archives" or "British Rail Announcements" and similar doesn't turn up anything, and I'm too lazy to try any other combinations!

Yes, a huge 2 159s are spare per day at the moment!  ::)  ;)

The 158s are only at EMT because they're not needed until 10 coach peak services Salisbury to London come in.

They were removed by Wessex because there was trouble with local youths (antisocial behaviour, fare dodging etc.) The DfT didnt include them in the Greater Western Franchise specification, therefore FGW are not obliged to provide them.

I use the Portsmouth-Cardiff services on a regular basis from this station, and believe me, the demand is definately there!


I disagree with you, and I strongly suspect that I would be far from the only one.

Filton gets what, coming up to half a million passenger journeys a year? (making it the 3rd most used station in bristol?_

I can think of a number of stations with less passengers than that, that have a better service...

And as iirc it was the MOD who funded the station (almost in its entireity?) so there workers could commute in from across the country. I'm sure they'd have something to say about it.

I seem to remember that it wasn't that long ago (2004 or 2005?) under Wessex trains that the hourly Portsmouth - Cardiff train had different stops between Salisbury and Bristol depending on which hour it was, some wouldn't stop at Westbury, some wouldn't stop at Warminster etc.

As a current user of the line, I'd probably say the timetable is about right - Bradford on Avon is a tricky one as it probably doesn't need the service it gets currently, but then if it stays long enough it'll probably develop quite nicely. Plus timings have only changed by a minute, so it was probably quite slack before. Romsey gets an amazing service now for the size of the town it is!

From what Ive seen so far, the new Portsmouth-Cardiff stop at Bradford-on-Avon is proving popular enough to justify retention. Also, I cant see the West Wiltshire Rail Users Group giving it up without a hell of a fight.

As for Romsey and Warminster, Portsmouth-Cardiff provides the only regular service to far afield that these stations get. A decent enough amount of passengers always seem to be waiting for the train there, and both towns are likely to significantly grow in the coming years.

I'm not suggesting we turn any of the stations I mentioned into Melkshams or Beaulieu Roads, I'm proposing that a number of services do not stop there. To begn with, is there enough demand from east of Westbury to Filton Abbey Wood to justify an hourly service outside of peak hours? Romsey under my plans would continue receiving the hourly service it currently enjoys, but would be a slightly slower service. Warminster would only loose out every other hour when the Portsmouth service does not stop but there is still an hourly service from Southampton/Bristol, likewise with Cosham which would receive roughly an hourly service (semi-fast from Portsmouth plus the Brighton services). Bradford-on-Avon is the only station that truly looses out with my proposals, but they are only going back to the service available post December 07 (?) or whenever stops were introduced on the Portsmouth - Cardiff trains.

Of course, with all "good plans" I expect my service would require quite a bit of extra stock. I would suggest hiring two sets of Mark 2s and top 'n' tail 47/67s at least until more 158s can be got.

I shall attempt to produce an example timetable, attempting to create a fully clockface timetable for the line, although I'd like to keep 2R99 if possible as that's rather a good service (albeit a 153)! :)

Ah - JDS has seen the light, people like clockface!

The extra Portsmouth stops were useful when I was last at Bradford on Avon and there is a smashing fish and chips shop so allows half an hour to grab lunch ;)

I shall genuinely look forward to reading it. Your posts have certainly given us at CANBER towers something to talk about this afternoon.

For comparison purposes, I would put forward Stage Two of my West Fleet plan (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1407.msg8181#msg8181

Probably worth giving an update on this - since the plan was written, the following has changed.

STAGE ONE

- The 3 Class 142 units that were identified as being in storage are now back on-lease (length of lease unknown.)

- Questions have been raised as to the viability of running services with loco-hauled stock.

STAGE TWO

- The DfT appear to have rather overlooked the area in question when it comes to new-build trains (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1583.msg10354#msg10354

As a result, I am looking to make some alterations. This means that I am genuinely interested in the timetable proposals currently being put forward by forum members.


Tried it, and it is very good  ;D

Right, lets axe Filton Abbey Wood!
Is it not only a few yards away from parkway?So how can it be well used? Or am I wrong (if I am, then I'll lower the axe!!!) ?


Overall, demand for local travel has gone up, so at least some Cardiff - Pompey services need to call at most stops.

But I agree with the idea of a fast train. It is the same with the Cotswold Line. More fast services need to be brought in for long distance commuters/travellers. These relieve pressure on local services which can pick up locals- also less pressure to cut calls to speed up journey times.

It's 25 minutes walk - I've done it.

I won't lie, but I know quite a few crews who found Cosham a backside to stop at after about 19.00

Maybe, but when you look at this map:

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=362000&Y=180000&width=700&height=400&gride=358989.579039313&gridn=173096.200014968&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=true&zm=0&scale=25000&down.x=277&down.y=4

You start to wonder....

Ok- it's a mile, but still........

See quotes below :



For many, many reasons, you wont be seeing the back of that particular station any time soon.


As I said earlier in the topic, I prefer the service pattern set down in Stage Two of my West Fleet plan, but am quite happy to consider detailed proposals put forward by others.


Wont disagree with you there, and all I am asking is that at least the existing calls are kept.

I think adding Bradford on Avon had something to do with the removal of the Cardiff-Westbury service (with an extension to Weymouth every 2 hours) and reverting to the old Cardiff-Taunton service.

How long before they add Keysham, Oldfield Park and Avoncliff on the Cardiff-Portsmouth service.

Also I remember this train used to call at STJ at one point instead of Filton. Surely there are plenty of other trains that call at Filton.

It still gave a significant increase in Bradford-on-Avon services that is likely to prove justified and difficult to remove in the face of likely opposition.

For what its worth, I dont think that Keynsham, Oldfield Park and Avoncliff will be added to the off-peak Cardiff-Portsmouth service any time soon.

As for Filton, plenty of supporting points have been raised in this topic for those calls.

Trowbridge is IIRC the 4th busiest station on the Portsmouth/Cardiff route, 543,800 for 05/06.

I would say that current usage at Filton is no longer dominated by MoD traffic, I^m sure Filton College and Bristol Poly (oops UWE) would also be inconvenienced were the service there were to be reduced, and I regularly see Filton Sports students travelling from Trowbridge.

I believe that the Filton build was by no means assured and was hotly disputed, it doesn^t bare thinking about if all the current Filton traffic had to be funnelled through Parkway.


They are already on the 0600 Portsmouth working, that's one of my biggest gripes about the timetable, there is no semi fast 'From' Trowbridge in the morning, unlike the return. Trowbridge/Filton takes just over 60 minutes until the 1014 service, return PM and its just over 40 minutes, surely the same traffic flows apply.  >:( >:( >:(

40 minutes matches some of the better car journeys to North Bristol and I know of a number of people who do drive because of the 1hr journey time. How a 50% increase in journey time going in a different direction can be justified beats me.

Thats a Greater Bristol peak, rather than off-peak service, and whatever the view of forum members, I think that trade-off examples like that are always going to be around for us to debate.

I still dont think that Keynsham, Oldfield Park and Avoncliff will be added to the off-peak Cardiff-Portsmouth service any time soon.

Now you've said that Lee - they're probably going in in December!

My point entirely, those services 'from' Cardiff doing the Greater Bristol eveing peak don't stop at every other fence post, hence I can guarantee (within FGW standard variables) approx 40 min journey home on ALL XX09 services from Filton. Desk to front door is about an hour in the evenings, 1.20 to get there in the morning, no choice in the matter.

It's not until after 10 in the morning that there's even remotely a quick service, so what's the difference between loadings going TO Bristol as opposed to those going home in the evening that requires every service to have Avoncliff as a request stop.  ??? ???

A couple of morning peak outer surburban type services to central/north Bristol might actually persuade a few people to abandon the car.

The morning peak begins just after when the service starts up - and is spread over a shorter time than the evening peak where you can travel on shoulder-peak services as well, so more trains need to call at more stations in order to move as many passengers as possible in that short time. That's clear if you look at say the morning up peak service from Bournemouth to London (4 services in 2 hours for commuters), compared to the evening down peak service (starts at 1535 now with the splitting services, and ends at 1935 really in experience).

BUT, they take approx 1.50 to do the journey irrespective of the number of services, it's the same whether going to or from Waterloo. I can't catch a train that does the same length journey (only 30 miles) that takes the same time in the morning as it does in the evening.

It would be the same as saying ALL services from Bournmouth in the morning peak will take 2.45 and every other one back will be 1.50

The point I'm making is that the peak is spread out in the evenings, so people are more likely to use alternative services as opposed to in the morning peak when there is a much shorter time to transport people between places.

I see your point about it calling at all stations and halts, but looking up Trowbridge to Filton Abbey Wood, there isn't another service for another 25 minutes (0632 from Weymouth being the next one after 0600 from Portsmouth Harbour), and 1F06 acts as a perfectly timed commuter service for Bristol Temple Meads and Filton Abbey Wood.

If another service ran right behind it - my thoughts would be to continue 1F06 calling at Avoncliff, etc, but make it avoid Bristol Temple Meads - or, perhaps make 1C03 call at Oldfield Park and Keynsham additionally. That would make it arrive Bristol Temple Meads about 0849, only 10 minutes after 1F06 does currently.

So the options are ...

OPTION 1 - 1F06 0600 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central to avoid Bristol Temple Meads. 1C03 0700 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads to call additionally at Oldfield Park and Keynsham arriving 4 minutes later.

OPTION 2 - 1F06 0600 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central to not call at Oldfield Park and Keynsham but still call at Bristol Temple Meads. 1C03 calls in replacement. Passengers wanting Filton Abbey Wood at Oldfield Park can get 2E31 0910 Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway (no idea where it comes from). Not a perfect solution to this one, but certainly a good idea.

OPTION 3 - as 1, except not call Oldfield Park and Keynsham for 1F06. An additional possibility is to perhaps run a spare unit on an additional to Severn Beach via Abbey Wood?

I still dont get why the 06.51 from Pompey stops Avoncliff/Freshford!

I'm sure Lee can probably put his finger on it, but I've a feeling that it was First's way of meeting the minimum frequency set out in the specification, if not could claim they were exceeding it, it would take me a while to look at the spec and compare with current timetabling, there were some oddities.

No problem with that concept at all if you^ve a 500 seat train starting from Bournemouth AND you start there AND you are not the sole service provider when you get closer to London.


1F06 Hahahahaha, regularly shortformed, should be 4 car, people fed up and don^t trust it anymore so have adjusted to doing the following:

0648(TRO) ^ Salisbury/Gloucester ^ From Trowbridge mainly BTM customers due to the stupid 20 min layover at BTM, as it does get in early fairly frequently you can play roulette to catch a slightly late Exeter/Parkway depending on platform allocation.

0703 ^ Frome/Cardiff ^ This really should be a semi fast, this is the one that would possibly convince West Wilts people to not to drive it it could be made 40 min to N Bristol.

0713 ^ Salisbury/BTM ^ SWT, everyone goes for this for comfort for at least part of the journey, quality that SWT much be making a great deal out of. Never mind the wait at BTM, it^s a hell of a lot better that bl**dy Trowbridge in the winter. Now very full 3 car.

0724 ^ Weymouth/Parkway ^ Do I have to say any more, roulette again, will it/won^t it train.

0744 ^ Warminster/Gt Malvern ^ Just because. Last of the Bristol crowd and the middle of the Bath people. Just takes tooooo long. (Haven^t an old timetable think this was the FIT direct, avoiding BTM at 0738 ish)

0758 ^ (1F06) Portsmouth/Cardiff ^ very late Bristol and last Bath shout, full 4 car at Trowbridge manic as 2, beat them away with a stick a Oldfield. Lucky dip.

0823 ^ Wey/Parkway ^ lucky souls who have some flexibility and the start of days out people, full and standing from Trowbridge, although it was nice as 4 car the other day, all the way to Parkway as well.

0900 ^ Stragglers, and again if running ok don^t stay on for FIT, there^s a train leaving from platform 9 if you are quick enough.

If you would like to recommend timetable changes then please come and join us in the guess the train game.

And apparently Dr Day^s is to slow, don^t ask me why, but you wait in the chord until everyone else is happy, then they let you through. Had quite a few naps sat outside the Rhubarb Tavern (on the train that is).

You missed out the 08.51 WSB-Gloucs. :P

Anyway, here is the TT I was making a few months ago...

http://southwest-railways.50webs.com/BristolMorningPeak.htm

On retrospect, it prob is not a good idea to axe Filton!  ;)

My axe is lowered.

I just thought they were a few yards apart!!!!! ::)

As mentioned before, it's a 25 minute walk.

I know. I hope that some quadruple track is installed soon.

cant see that happening anytime soon, NR thought they'd get some revenue off it, and 2-3 mobile phone masts have sprung up.

You have to wait for a path, pretty difficult out of Dr Days Jn and Rhubarb Curve as you cross a few running lines. Not impossible though. "Too slow" isn't really a valid excuse if that's what FGW have been putting out!!  :o

The only thing that I would add is this - Avoncliff and Freshford benefit from having some influential people fighting their corner.

On the specification, FGW are allowed to add extra stops in franchise services, as long as the other requirements of the spec are met.

That's what I meant, in retrospect it would have been better if I'd said that taking the train into BTM made things a lot easier. It was quite frequently delayed waiting for the path, I don't know if recent timetable changes would make this a proposition again as IIRC it was generally an Arriva service we waited for to clear.

They have to be, Avoncliff gets the same frequency service as Trowbridge in the peak, and looking at the 05/06 figures Trowbridge comes in as the 522nd busiest station on the network whereas Avoncliff is 2169th.  ???

A slightly interesting point- on my travels back to Bath in the evening peak we're called into Avoncliff about 40% of the time, Dilton Marsh about 60%. We get at least 20 passengers from Trowbridge daily. Usually just 1 or 2 on at Avoncliff, normally someone off. Not too bad considering it's not the peak direction of travel for that time of day.

tranway, how often does the train stop at Avoncliff in the morning peak?

AT LAST - WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR
Extract from press relese on the website - http://firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=95
This includes leasing five additional Class 150 units to release Class 158 trains to strengthen the Cardiff-Portsmouth service from May 2008, which will increase capacity by 40% on most services on this route.

See also link below.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1862.msg13465#msg13465

Bit of a loaded question there.

It only needs 9 people who are happy to travel at different times in the morning and you stop every one, this is obviously an extreme scenario as facts don^t bear this out, In/Out figures put Avoncliff at approx 10,000 whereas if there were 9 people who used Avoncliff for the standard 220 working days then this equates to 35,000, and the 35k obviously doesn^t take into account all the summer visitors to the Cross Guns.

Assumption being that there are a lot of free trips for the bigwigs around Avoncliff then.

Although I^m variable in my travelling habits in the mornings, I would agree that not all trains stop but it^s a slow run from BoA as it^s approx 1-2 miles to Avoncliff and approx speed for request can^t be more than 20 mph?? (guessing there).

But going back to my premise of a West Wilts fast service to Bristol Central/North in the morning peak should be an option. Using the xx.03 (or thereabouts) making an hourly service, still leaves the shacks with an almost ^ hourly service, not unreasonable I think, properly promoted I^m sure there^s untapped demand and considering the popularity of the SWT service this has to be unquestioned. IIRC that used to be an ECS to BTM, it^s now full 159.

No objections to calling at Bradford-on-Avon, Keynsham & Oldfield Park, which the SWT service does, tramway?

Thanks for that tramway :) I personally think a fast service would be a good idea but I wouldn't really want it to replace a local service so to speak, as I know from experience how high demand is at Oldfield Park and Keynsham in the morning.

If only it were possible to build another track from Bath to Bristol to allow Bath-Bristol only trains to run, to cater for Oldfield park/Keynsham in the peak...

I was hoping you wouldn^t ask that one Lee as it possibly makes me seem to be Trowbridge centred, which is not what I^m trying to be, rather ^West Wilts^, a bit like Graham, but focusing on Bristol rather than Swindon.

I suppose it depends on capacity given to the remaining services, is half hourly unreasonable for Bradford and Oldfield if capacity is adequate?. Then I would say lose them, Keynsham may be a different argument, say alternate Keynsham/Bradford. I^m just trying to put forward a case for a popular outer suburban run for Warminster/Frome/Westbury/Trowbridge, the arguments that support a cross Wilts service are certainly relevant in an improved Bristol one.

Would SWT run Filton/Parkway then ECS BTM before the Waterloo service, or make it a Parkway special round Dr Days, if there is a reliable path.

I just have a feeling that the 1 hour journey in the morning is way outside what a marginal rail passenger is likely to consider a reason to get out of the car, unless BCC come over all draconian, not likely in the near future. Considering the nightmare that the roads are around this neck of the woods people are still prepared to sit it out, rail must be doing something wrong. (Can^t be bad publicity surely ;))

Graz

I was thinking just 2 car 158 for the quick run as you wouldn^t need the capacity (initially), making all others 4 car 150/158, or 150/153. I haven^t looked at a ^seats/hour^ figure at each stop under this option as compared to currently, but if a 150/2 with 2+2 seating then it^s approx 300 seats in a 4 car set, therefore 600/hour at Oldfield, given a ^ hourly frequency, I^ll need a bit more time to do better maths, and think a bit more about loadings.

Of course with the Tax Payers money just about ANY improvement is possible on the railway network but major schemes will never take off whilst the DfT consider money spent on ROADS as INVESTMENT, and Money spent on RAILWAYS as SUBSIDY.
The travelling public will have a much better railway WHEN a level playing field is appiled to Road against Rail by DfT.

I look forward to reading what you come up with.

You have more chance of FGW operating to Wick than you do of SWT operating beyond Temple Meads.... at the moment.

Only the 06.40 from Salisbury calls at Oldfield Park and Keynsham, the evening return from Salisbury also stops at Keynsham. However, they all stop at Bradford-on-Avon, I believe they did this prior to FGW adding the stop on all services.

I am well aware of that, thankyou.

The conversation was referring to the morning peak service. Kindly read/quote the entire post before trying to make me look stupid :

Others might not, and I think you are bit paranoid if everytime someone doesn't quote your post INCLUDING quotes you immediately assume they are trying to make you look stupid!

I assume there are one or two normal pax on here, that won't know the ins and outs of every timetable ever considered on this line!

I am not going to give you the pleasure of telling you what I think of your latest obvious trolling attempt. I was pointing out that you didnt appear to have read what had been written before that, and I feel I was right to complain about being quoted out of context.

HEY - I think this is starting to get a bit personal - and one of the few rules that we have around here is NOT to get personal.   Please restrain from personal attacks - they may be common on other forums but they are completely unacceptable here.

By the way - we are all pretty nromal people  ;)

By the way, if people ever think that I have got the wrong end of the stick, please bear in mind that there are appropriate ways of putting your view across without resorting to personal attack. See example below :


I think that miniman would agree that he has sometimes overstepped the mark, but I will say that he takes steps to moderate his posts when this is pointed out to him.

Is it ok if we could return to the main theme here.

I^ve sent Lee a few extracts from an RPC report from 2004 which seemed to make sense to me, and which outlined basic service provision around the Portsmouth/Cardiff corridor (Old Wessex basically)

Lee asked if I could expand on my earlier outline info, unfortunately as is the way of the world I^ve been side tracked into reading the myriad reports and plans that have been produced covering rail services around Wiltshire and the South West. I^ll have to return to the subject of capacity issues a bit later.

I^ve done this to see what other support there may have been officially for the type of service proposed in the RPC report, and I have extracted a few bits and pieces I^ve stumbled upon. Nothing as detailed as in the RPC reports but interesting nontheless.

The following is from the South West RPA dated May 2007
http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/wmssouthwestrpa

It draws on the Draft South West RSS which identified Strategically Significant Cities and Towns (SSCT^s), I^ve re-ordered the list from the report to place them into local rail route significance.

Bath
Trowbridge
Bristol
Salisbury

Chippenham
Swindon

Yeovil
Barnstaple
Dorchester
Taunton
Bournemouth
Exeter
Torbay
Bridgwater
Gloucester
Weston-super-Mare
Camborne/Pool/Redruth,
Falmouth/Penryn/Truro
Poole
Weymouth
Cheltenham
Plymouth

5.3.9   On each of the routes identified in the bold statement following paragraph 5.3.4 the train service frequency should be developed to support the growth of the SSCTs, and train capacities should be such as to avoid overcrowding for journeys from within the region to London and Birmingham. It will also be necessary to ensure consistent standards of service quality. This will include safer, more attractive stations, improved interchange facilities and services, and enhanced car parking capacity at stations.

From page 97 of the RPA

Objective
Strengthen the role of Bristol as the region^s main focus for economic growth.
Help meet all objectives by accommodating growth in rail demand.
Improve public transport accessibility around Bristol.

Options
Train lengthening, focusing initially on services to Bath/ Wiltshire and Severn Beach.

Delivery Issues
Additional rolling stock required. Funding would be needed for an earlier than planned roll-out of smartcard technology to railway stations around Bristol.

Potential Delivery Route.
Franchise Agreement.

Relies on the implementation plan from the outcomeof the Greater Bristol Strategic Transport Study which in turn comes from the SWARMMS findings in 2002, which assumes cascaded 165 stock, (para  5.80)


Wiltshire Local Transport Plan Appendix 4 para 6 -15,

   Further development of the Severn ^ Solent route as an important interregional link between the medium-sized towns along the corridor, including regular clock-face stopping patterns and faster journey times (my bold) (although the latter may be difficult to achieve with current national priorities on maintenance and investment). This should also include better connections with longer distance services and a clear policy for holding connections in the event of late running

The ^Western Wiltshire sustainable transport strategy^ and ^Wiltshire structure plan^ and LTP^s were to be honest a total waste of space wrt rail. WWDC^s web site is still congratulating Wessex on the improvements they made to the Trans Wilts service.

Fine by me. Ive got some info on this that I will send you a bit later, tramway. Good to be working with you on this, by the way.

On the RPC report, it is interesting that the Jacobs Greater Western Franchise Replacement Outline Business Case Report considered, but rejected (unfairly in many people's view) the report's recommendations (Pages 153 & 154 of the link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi/responses/2006/september06/swindonwestburytrainsservice/greaterwesternoutlinebusines1103

The RPC proposals included :

- Hourly limited stop service between Cardiff and Portsmouth
- Hourly semi fast service between Bristol and Southampton
- Hourly stopping service Bristol to Frome, extended two hourly to Weymouth
- Two hourly Swindon to Westbury shuttle.

I know that tramway has more detail on this, so I will let him pick up on that.

On the South West RPA, here are a couple of relevant links, with input from tramway.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2221.msg5160#msg5160

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=299.msg799#msg799

As a user of the Portsmouth to Cardiff service line, I'm growing more and more annoyed with FGW (or as the locals now call it First Great Failurer) for the constant issues they have with their service. Each night after 7pm the service is usually delayed by 20-40 minutes because of staff being late for the train service to continue the journey. This of course delays other services behind it and delays me getting home from my job.

I've spent half an hour waiting for the 158 class that was next to the 450 SWT service via Fareham because the driver had fallen asleep in Fratton's staff room. I've never seen anything like this from SWT or Southern (who to be honest are perhaps one of the more old school polite, friendly staff services I've ever been on) and don't see how FGW can get away with this.

The trains themselves are still bearing the sticks from the era when they were owned by Arriva trains, with the "arriva" part blanked out with biro! The seats themselves on the trains are either tatty or come away when they are sat on, the space for any one trying to sit on them, which is impressive in itself if the train isn't full again.

The carriages and toilets smell of urine on a regular basis, which gets even worse when its warm during the summer or when the heating on the trains is set to melt everyone alive. The toilets are rubbish, it would be easier and cleaner to stick my behind out of the windows, which we arent allowed to have open now, then sit on one.

The 158's in the current state that they are, that are running on the line (and the horrible backup 150's) have to go. I refuse to accept the rubbish excuses that I've been given from FGW rep's that the service isnt "popular" enough to warrant them having more then two coaches on the service. I've been all the way to Cardiff with the train FULL of people and back again three days later and can easily attest to each day it being full.

As you can tell, I'm a little bit of a grumpy sod  :P

I've not had a chance to bash a refurbished 158 yet, but I agree the interior of some of them is disgusting. Back in January I had an unrefurbished 159/0 from BRI to SAL, and yes it was a bit tatty, but it was decent enough and felt like a Palace on Wheels compared to some of the 158s you get - the blue seated ones (ex-Arriva?) are the worst IMO. Sadly, I seem to attract TPE units!


As for timetable I was doing, I have started but its damn complicated. Running fast and slow trains over the same distance is really hard to accomodate, as I've found when doing a timetable for the SWML, the fast train to Weymouth arrives only a few minutes before the previous hours' slow train!

I went through a stage where I seemed to attract 150's.....

tramway and I are working on similar stuff, and the offer to pool ideas and to reach a consensus still stands.

Me neither although I dont use the FGW local services much. When I did it was a ex TPE 158 or an ex Wessex one with the pink seats.

Put it this way: FGW 158s are to the same standard as SWT 159s apart from the blue interior.

They were even refurbed at the same place!

Hate to go off topic, AND bump and old topic with my first post (really sorry btw :D). But I simply must be linked to this site!

Thanks in advance!

Matt

Welcome to the forum 158 Matt. :)

You obviously did not realise that there is an introduction section of this forum though!