Great Western Coffee Shop

Maybe this is a stupid survey. :(

But I have given 2 votes. :)

Maybe it could be interesting. ;)

My votes went to mark 3 refresh and pendolino

I have no idea what mark 2 or mark 4 is

I based my choice on those with the most space and easiest access to power sockets

No votes for the poor 180!  :(

Also- no votes for the Meridians- the evil clones of the Virgin Voyagers!

Was the HST refurb a mistake?

No!

They have power sockets!

180's get not many votes, because a Wessex Electric/MK3 unrefresh is/were better!

To be honest, for me in the end a train is a train, as long as it gets me to where I want to go I'm happy.

158 for me, with second being refreshed HST.

Although I love 158's and they are the best for Medium Long Distance, for 12 hours they would be useless. I voted for MK3's refresh and non-refresh as they are simply the best long distance stock.

Mk3 unrefurb as the seats are so comfortable. Same applies to the Wessex electrics.

MK3 unrefurbed definately for long distance,open views,tables and correct lighting levels,everthing the refurbed Mk3s are not(ok for commuters though).

The refurbished mk3's are appalling and no longer suitable for long distance journeys. They are claustrophobic cramped and uncomfortable and just short distance commuter stock. It is not only the seats but the internal layout that is awful. I just could not believe what they had done to the marvelous Mk 3s when I first went on one at PNZ and nor could fellow passengers. The previous layout was brilliant for long distance. Sadly after being a life long pro rail supporter I now fly from Newquay to avoid these appalling vehicles. I will never forgive First for this. If we really have to have these ludicrous high back seats then we need more tables and open space, I have never felt trapped in a train before, I just want to get out.

150/153  refurbishment seems quite good though.

I would have voted for the SWT 158/159 if they had been on the list as my second choice. I also give them top marks for the wonderful way they are turned out.

Most passengers actually prefer the refurbed MKIII's from all the compliments I hear from them, and what may suprise a lot of people on this forum is that I very rarely hear complaints about them (from passengers), the main complaint is lack of tables though, BUT I think we may have fun this summer as there is less luggage space!

Yep - I don't mind them really although much prefer the dim light setting. Only thing they lack is back to back seats so therefore no luggage space and also on HDs - no bins!!

Alright, which four lunatics voted for Voyagers  ;  )

probably all sectioned under the mental healh act by now

I hope so, these people are walking the streets!! :D

First vote: Voyagers! I know that'll proberberbly make me mad, but i like the voyagers.
Second vote...i think i forgot to do it.

Theres nothing wrong with the Voyagers.

I wouldn't go that far but they aren't as bad as people make out.
They are just a bit short and have retention tanks on the toilets.
Solve those two and they would be good trains.

There are lots of things I really, really like about Voyagers.

The smell unfortunately isn't one of them - and I'm not talking of trouble in't toilets, I mean the all-pervading smell of damp carpets, particularly in 1st Class.

Sadly I am damned with a particularly acute sniffer, and I genuinely avoid using Voyagers where possible because of it.

Mind you, for a long time in the early days of HSTs I'd avoid using them as well because the smell when braking made me gag - I don't seem to notice that so much these days.

Once again, theres nothing wrong with voyagers. For me they beat a refurb'd hst without even trying.

Sounds more like an average mk3 to me...

Anyway, i'm entitled to my own opinion, and its not changeing because its now how you want it.

Plus, i get legroom on a voyager, and i certainly don't on a refurb'd mk3.

I find Voyager legroom insulting, unlike refurb HSTs. I don't see where people are getting the idea that the new mk3s have no legroom, unless some seats have more/less room  ???

The refurb MK3 have much more legroom than unrefurb, you may have problems if you are 6 ft 5 or so, but any person below that height can easily stretch there legs right out under the seat in front, dont say you cant as i did this  very thing about 2 hrs ago and i am about 6 ft tall.

The main issues with voyagers is the incessant rattling and the fact that they are too short, and full of wasted space hence overcrowding. There appears to be a large amount of cupboards for electrical equipment and excessive provision of disabled bogs.

I personally find the seating on them very very uncomfortable after about 45 minutes or so (assuming you can get a seat). However this is more to do with personal preference, they seem very upright and hard, but probably are designed to adopt a more healthier pose than the old Mark III seats which were much more like sinking into your sofa. There also seems to be a fair few seats which don't line up with windows, admittadley BR refurbishments of Mark IIIs started this, but the voyagers seem far worse for this. The buffet car (or shop) as they like to call it seems far far more cramped than the old Mark II and Mark III buffets.

Staff accommodation on the things is crap. leading to staffr banning passengers standing in some vestibules so they have somewhere to stand!

On the longer routes where there is no increase in frequency, e.g. Bournemouth, services via Coventry, Yorkshire or Scottish services the things are viciously overcrowded, and often cannot cope. Note how Virgin used to hire out HSTs and XC are bringing them back.

As for the refurbished HSTs, they are less comfortable and pleasant than the old seating, but aren't anywhere near as bad as Voyagers. I don't really think Great Western had much choice, it was the only way they could increase seats, and they seem to have done a half decent job of it for solo travellers and commuters. I've not tried London to Penzance on them yet, but for London to Bristol, they are perfectly acceptable.

I am about 6 foot, and i definatly prefer the voyager legroom to the HST (but that's my personal opinion)
Overcrowding: ok, does get crowded sometimes, but so does FGW. There is more room between the carrages in a voyagerthat you can camp yourself in if they are crowded.

and i've somehow managed to turn this thread into a talk about the voyager class, so i am sorry

They've got to have the large amount of cupboards for electrical equipment, because each carrage has the same kit in it, to draw power from the engine/generator/or from another carrage if the engine is not functioning properly. then there's all the fuse thingys, and the engine control systems.
And as the buffets on the mark 3 (and i guess mark 2) take up half a carrage on an HST. of course the shops on the voyagers are going to be cramped...the RSM in the shop on the voyagers always does a good job in my books.

Likewise. I'm 6ft. And i get so much more legroom in a voyager than i do in a mk3 of either type

I find Voyagers fine for long distance just as long as they're not crowded. They're speedy and fairly quiet, nice big clean windows to look out of too (probably the best windows out of all, I'd say). I'm also 6 ft and don't have any issues regarding legroom... Can be a little bumpy when going over points, but I really enjoy going on them.

I like HSTs too, but I have to say I preferred them before the refurb. I'd also happily be on a class 158 for long distance if it wasn't too busy (and especially if it wasn't a tatty old alphaline one!), same with a 159.

umm it's actually a fact that there's more legroom in a MKIII! i'm even going to measure them both tomorow to prove it!

Personally, I thought about a long distance journey that I might do (Bristol to Paddington, for example?), and so I voted for, Mk3 not refurb, and Mk3 refresh.

Now, to avoid my posting loads of quotes here in an attempt to justify my choice, for simplicity I'll just say:

I agree with previous posts by qprrule, vacman, devon_metro (what, no bins?) and woody (yes, I'm a commuter) on this one!

Vacman, I agree, there's nothing wrong with 158s - but not for the 'long distance travel' I'm considering here - and there is a bit more legroom on a Mk3 (from personal experience, not using a tape measure!) and I'm 6 ft as well!

However, this is just my personal view?  Let the debate continue!

I don't see electrical cupboards taking up loads of room on other trains, other than pendolinos (which suffer from the things rattling away in first) and voyagers. 170s another modern unit don't seem to need as much wasted space with kit. Given the non passenger carrying space needed at the extreme ends to allow 125mph running with passengers in the lead vehicle, it would have made sense to shove all this equipment in there. Of course in the HST design, such equipment is in the power cars anyway.

Overcrowding depends really on the route on Voyagers and the time on Great Western HSTs. In and out of London is always going to be packed in the peaks on the HSTs, but I've hardly ever seen free seats on Voyagers operating the Bournemouth or Scottish routes, regardless of time of day (except very early in the morning). Overcrowding on the refreshed HSTs doesn't seem that bad, it's mainly the Reading to London area where it gets silly.

On HSTs you can prop up the buffet car if you need to stand, on Voyagers this is largely impossible as you will be continually in someones way. Because of the tapered bodysides, standing in the vestibules on the thing is actually more uncomfortable than the HST. In summer you can pull the HST window down and rest your arm on the droplight, if standing is necessary. Standing on any train isn't pleasant mind you.

The Voyager design seems like it was done on the cheap with no real thought going into it. The one thing in their favour is that they are generally quite reliable in my experience, I've not experienced them failing at all, and the acceleration means they have a better chance of making up time. Personally though, I do avoid the things unless I have no choice.

I do wonder how much of the problem is due to the interior design when specified by Virgin, I find pendolinos crap for all the same reasons.

Thats one of the things that annoys me on Voyagers - the limited amout of seats with a 'full' window and anyhow the windows are small and there is far too much wall. Also irritating to see that my luggage in the luggage rack can enjoy the view more than me  >:(

Yes but thats all in the interest of safety. Take the grayrigg derailment, (pendolinos have roughly the same window spacing as voyagers iirc) 1 person died, and the train was still completely useable once it had been re-railed and some bodywork replaced, and it was given a full service. Then take upton nevet. 7 peiople died, and the mk3's were almost all a complete write off.

I think i'd much rather be on a safer train that 1 that i "have a window seat" on...

Very true although the circumstances of the two crashes are completly different.

At Ufton Nevet the train derailed after it hit the idiot on the LC and then encountered a set of points further derailing it. The only carriage massivly damanged was the buffet car.

Yes the Pendolino is safer, but what progress has been made?

Loss of loads of window space whilst the Mk3 is still very structurally sound. I'd rather have a window as its not everyday your train crashes!!

Yes, but it's a "what if" situation. And i belive the majority of commuters would want a structurally sound, and incredibly safe voyager/pend over an mk3 if they knew the "difference"

I know which one i'd rather have...

No idea about voyagers, although I'd agree with you that the pendolino is quite clearly a very very safe train and proved itself well. However the set 390033, "City of Glasgow" was written off on 30 November 2007 and Virgin are currently using a loco + DVT set in its place.

The trailing power car was to my knowledge the only vehicle not scrapped in the Ufton Nervet crash.

There is absolutely no way you can even start to compare the crash worthiness of a voyager to a mk3 or any ex Br stock for that matter.
Any person with half a brain would expect a new build train to be constructed to  a higher safety standard than one that is 30 yrs old. because of course standards have moved on.
The Grayrigg and Ufton incidents were totally different and such comparisions are therefore meaningless.
Take a look at the photos of the 142 which was involved in an accident a few years ago and then start worrying what if.

Putting it into perspective, the Mark III's are still very safe. The death toll on the train in Ufton Nervet was 6 (including the driver). In Paddington the vast majority of deaths were on the Thames unit. In Southall the driver survived and 7 were killed.

All train crashes are awful things, though I'd have to admit I'd feel safer in a Mark III coach rather than any sort of diesel multiple unit, mainly because I'm not going to be riding under the fuel tanks (unless they put seats in the power cars!!), and plus there is a large engine at the front to theoretically take most of the force.

Incidentally the Winsford crash in 1997 involved Mark III coaching stock and an electric loco against an empty stock pacer. No deaths and a few minor injuries, the 87 remained largely unscathed other than being ripped off its bogies. The rear carriage of the pacer was virtually demolished.

Just remember, you're statistically far more likely to come to harm driving to the station or being assaulted by some aggresive piece of human sewage on the station or train anyway.

If you really want a train then a DB ICE 2 both first and second is excellent.

Also standing behind the driver in a DB IC DVT when leading and watch it weaving in out of freight trains between Hanover and Magdeburg.

Also watch how the driver resets his computer to run on parts of the line equiped with LZB signalling (DB cab signalling for high speed lines) this allows ICs to run at 220 Kmh rather than 160 on conventially signalled lines.

Just made a return journey (Worcs to Oxford).

Down on an HST 2+8 fully refurbed.

Smooth, but VERY NOISEY on board!!!!!!!! Conformable seats with plenty of legroom. Shame the seat back is high, but this is safety.

Buffet area nice. Windows on external doors have not been refurbed clearly!

Back up on a 180 Adelante.

Train got later and later as it can't accelerate- no we did not get stuck at any stops for any length of time!

Very quiet, but lots of vibrations and rattling.

Buffet more cramped. Seats more conformable HST.

Train was early at every station, despite a short delay at Morton (not a passing train, but loading)- need I say no more!

About the Virgin stock:

The only reason 1 person died onboard that Virgin Train is because it was very empty (late evening service, past Preston). If it had been a typical Virgin service (or a Voyager on any service) at rush hour near Birmingham, with people crushed in the vestibules etc., then goodness knows how many people would have died!!!!!!!!

In conclusion:

*Refurb HST was good inside. If the train had only been stopping 3/4 times rather than 8 times (i.e. InterCity!) then it would have been perfect for the job. Why have they put high density sets on the Cotswold Line? ???

*Adelante was good as it stayed on time!

*Voyagers are rubbish- end of story! They are cramped, smell, have not enough seats, have not enough luggage space, have pathetic overhead racks, have slow opening and closing doors, are noisy, have vibrations/rattles, have too many toilets, have too many disabled toilets, have poor legroom, squeaky fold down tables, have not enough seats alined with the windows, have luggage racks aligned with the windows (!), are noisier in the Quiet Zone than in the normal carriages, need I go on???????

Because LD sets should be going down to Penzance.

I agree that Voyagers are a real let down and were a missed opportunity to come up with some decent rolling stock for Cross Country. You say that they have too many toilets. Are you sure about that? I don't think they have enough for a four car train...There should be at least 1 toilet per carriage. HSTs have plenty of toilets, well they did until FGW closed two of them, one at each end for the new trolley service.

problem is with voyager toilets is someone decided each and every one had to be a disabled toilet which takes up a good percentage of the train, and of course the smell.
just wonder what voyagers will be like when they are old as an HST...i know you like them Shazz but as a matter of interest how often do you travel on them?
With me its quite often, and after a few days they do start to grind you down somewhat

I will beleive that when I see it.
Both morning leisure HST's today going to Padington were HD with un refur buffet.
HD sets are the norm on most HST's.

I never really bother checking as I don't care about table seats. Was on an LD from Bath - Bristol the other week though and treated myself to a table in coach A.

The grayrigg pendolino was written off! as for ufton nervet, a few of the TSO's were re used I believe??

Coaches A-D were rebuilt/conditioned, temporarily stored at Minehead and then entered service

Ironically some of the coaches involved in the Ladbroke Grove tragedy were the ones rebuilt after the Southall accident. Spooky   :-\

Ahh, Coach A.
If we have a LD set on a unbusy HST going up that is the place to sit, I reguarly have the whole carriage to myself.
As for not looking, although I don't look for table seats it is hard not to notice if there are 2 tables or 4.

I trust, however, that you did not say a word?

 ;)

I was quite silent ;)

Good.  It's obvious Jim is the bad influence, then.

 ;D ;D

But on off peak trains, there is not enough demand for HD sets.

Which services are to be Adelanted? Ie- How much is three diagrams?

No question - Mark 3 unrefurbs or Mark 2s. Comfy seats, tables and decent overhead racks. I have a pilot bag style briefcase which fits nicely into Mark 3 and Mark 2 overhead racks and they have great seats, bags of tables and good views. The Third Rate Mark 3 refurbs are worse than Ryanair plus the pink seat top grab handles resemble a row of Mickey Mouse ears.

Voyagers, Pendolinos and Mark 4s cramp the shoulders because of the profiled sides, plus Voyagers and Pendolinos strink.

Adelantes would be OK if seats no so narrow, better room in overhead rack and no engine growling under floor accompanied by gear changes

Welcome to the forum stebbo and can I say how delighted I am to see someone standing up for Mk2s as they are good carriages. The New Zealanders also seem to think so as many have made their way down to that part of the world.

I have locked the poll.

Easy winner: the Mark 3.

People prefer the un refurbs.

Wessex Electrics are third.

No-one likes the Meridians!

Thanks for voting.

I'm still fairly surprised Wessex Electric did not score higher: They are better for a number of reasons that the Mk3 Refresh:
-Comfy seats
-Lots of tables
-Plug Doors
-Pleasant environment
-First Class compartments
http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Pages%20EMU/Recognition%20EMU/IllusEMU_442.html