Great Western Coffee Shop

...50 or so dopey passengers at Bath Spa, and a 2-car local Great Malvern train arriving 4 minutes before a slightly late HST is due?

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd13/GrazzaD/crowds2.jpg)

== claustrophobic conditions in both carriages
== People like me finding it very difficult to leave the train at Oldfield Park/ Keynsham
== People finding it difficult to board the train at those stations
== Both trains arriving EVEN LATER because it's taking people so long to depart and board at Bath Spa, Oldfield Park and Keynsham

A solution? To announce to all passengers at Bath Spa, if they're going to Bristol Temple Meads, not to board the local service but to wait just 4 more minutes for the HST! I'm sure they'd get there the same time anyway- but by all boarding the local train they effectively make both trains even later.

It shouldn't have to be this way if FGW had enough rolling stock but because they don't, I encourage passengers who are travelling Bath-Bristol to use the HST services to free up the local two car stock for passengers travelling from Wilts/further south, Oldfield Park and Keynsham.

FGW have put posters up at stations showing what rolling stock operates on peak services between Bath-Bristol and vice versa.

The problem in this case though was that train is never normally that busy and a 2-car usually suffices, with about 20 or so getting on at Bath Spa leaving the seats about 80% or so full, and no-one standing. The problem as I see it is people going to Bristol TM will just take the first train that arrives at Platform 1 and assume it gets to Bristol the quickest, not giving the slightest thought about people boarding/leaving at Oldfield Park/Keynsham or even whether they can all fit on the train in the first place  ::) . So a delayed HST usually means chaos for the local trains, especially at peak.

I definitely agree with you though, I think all Bristol TM passengers should use HSTs at Bath Spa, in the peak... reinforced by station announcements should one be delayed!

This sort of thing happens in Cardiff often. When the FGW HS service to Swansea is late the ATW service to West Wales often arrives before it and everyone gets onto that train for stations like Bridgend and Neath , even if it isnt going to depart until after the HST has been and gone.

Or the passengers could of used their brains and worked it out!

They dont always. When the Portsmouth train terminates at Cardiff and everyone is waiting for the HST to Swansea which is due about 5 minutes later everyone tries to get on that train even though they clearly announce this train is terminating.  People just see a train arrive on Platform 3 and assume it is going West from Cardiff.

Same scenario every night at BTM, vitually anyone for Bath catches the first train out, which is usually the XX22 Portsmouth so this is absolutley packed. Never thinking the HSS leaves just a few minutes later and probably waits for the Portsmouth train to clear Bath.

But FGW have only themselves to blame really as passengers have been taught that you must get the first train as there is no gurantee that the next one will turn up, it^s the same at Filton. Infrequent travellers are easily spotted as they stand and stare at the screen muttering to themselves when there are delays showing, regulars advise them ^get the first train to BTM and sort it out there^. Which for me is normally watching the departure screen in Weatherspoons.

We all have mental contigency plans in the event of problems

I remember when FGW made an attempt to address this....
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1112.msg5755#msg5755

Thing with Bristol - the HSS are sat there waiting for departure so you can go and sit down for 8 minutes!

Graz

You didn't mention what time it was, I don't suppose thirdratewestern was on the following HST

http://thirdratewestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/746-to-bristol.html

thirdratewestern is a forum member (miniman) so hopefully he can answer that.

I'm fairly mythed as to which unit he refers to  ???

0748 From Weymouth to BPW calling OLF+KYN
0800 From Paddington to BTM calling KYN (His HST)
0805 From Warminster to GMV calling OLF+KYN

Anybody care to shed any light, all of which were roughly on time today ;)

Nah, I was on the 17:28 Warminster - Great Malvern which is my usual train (Due to leave 18:07 at Bath Spa- was about 7 mins late that day). Difficult to see in that photo, but it was dark outside!

I was thinking that they should have made an announcement at Bath Spa along the lines of...

"To avoid overcrowding, would all passengers for Bristol Temple Meads only please do NOT board the next train but wait for the following High Speed train, the delayed 1800 to Taunton, which is due to arrive in approximately 4 minutes. Please only board the next train if you are travelling to Oldfield Park, Keynsham, Filton Abbey Wood or stations to Great Malvern. Again please passengers for Bristol Temple Meads do not board the next train but wait 4 minutes for the following service. Thank you"

They Do something similar to this in Oxford on a sunday i've noticed a few times.  They "advise" customers for London Paddington to board the xx05 local stopping services and change at Reading rather than boarding (what used to be xx38 but is now all over the show around that time) due to overcrowding. 

No but this is what my ranting was all about really. I guess my point was that it would be preferable to hold the stopping services (e.g. at Bathampton Junction) and let the HST in front of them. Then people who don't want to go to Keynsham / Oldfield Park can hop on the HST, and it doesn't get held up any further behind the stopping train. Doesn't seem like rocket science to me. I got scuppered again recently down at Fareham where the Portsmouth-Cardiff train was let out in front of the Southern service I was on - I wanted to get on the Ports-Card train, but of course we got into Southampton Central a few minutes after it had left, and had to wait an hour for the next one.

In that situation I can kind of understand - why should FGW / Southern care about each others customers? But at Bath, everyone is an FGW customer in the morning so why do they do stupid things that piss everyone off!?

Oh, just for clarity, I was a lazy sod yesterday and got the 0815 CPM-BRI and I drove into the office today in order to cart home 2 giant boxes of assorted baby products  ;D

...unless you're lucky enough to be around just past 9am for the SWT Bristol-Waterloo train (or the earlier Salisbury-Bristol one!)

I guess a problem with letting a HST go first is if the local train is left stuck at the junction for too long it can cause a knock-on effect. It has to go a very long distance, in this case all stops up to Great Malvern while the HSTs (not always, but most times) terminate at Bristol TM. HSTs also tend to make up time whilst a local train stopping at every station won't do as well.

What Bath Spa really needs is another northbound platform to cater for local services, so HSTs and Locals can be in the station at the same time and won't have to wait around at Bathampton jn. It'll help passengers realise which Bristol -bound service to get, and even perhaps give an oppertunity of starting peaktime Bath-Bristol only trains. I can't ever see that happening though because of the height and layout of the station.

You realise that FGW doesn't control signalling right?

If a stopper is let go first then that is down to the controlling signaller..

Knowing Graz as I do, I think its probably fair to say that he does....

Bear in mind if the HST was let first it would probably set down at Bath for about 4 minutes due to the slack in the timetable and thus delay the local train by even more.

I don't see what is so blinking hard about using your brain! Oooo, a full and standing local unit pulls in to the station, and on the screens there is a Bristol TM train 2mins behind. But no, everyone crams on the unit, and then the thoughtless buggers moan and groan when the unit passengers try and get on at Oldfield and KEynsham!

Why, I've never been so insulted!  ;D Seriously though I wasn't implying it was down to FGW- just that it's unfourtunate whenever a HST is 10 or so minutes late  (which is often), it can result in the local being delayed or packed out.

I'm afraid that's us Bath-types for you, Jim...  ;)

No comment :P

Can I just add it was aimed at miniman :)

Sorry to cause confusion.

Because of this comment:

In that situation I can kind of understand - why should FGW / Southern care about each others customers? But at Bath, everyone is an FGW customer in the morning so why do they do stupid things that piss everyone off!?

Yeah I'm aware of that. Genuine question - if FGW requested that signallers give priority to their HSTs vs their local trains, would they get anywhere? Strikes me this is another problem with a national rail network operated by a huge range of disparate organisations, none of whom really care about the others.

Delaying the HST has less knock on effect therefore will probably be given less priority over the unit.

Except... the Southern is booked 7 minutes behind the GW!

The signaller is in charge of train movements, granted FGW could suggest, but the signaller will have the wider picture. So if the HST is running a couple minutes late, with the stopper on time, the stopper will go first, to reduce the delay minutes, better to have one delayed train than 2.

Timmer you really are a little unfair. Whilst I agree that there is a shortage of rolling stock this isn't a new thing. I can remember on countless occasions finding it hard both in the morning and evening peaks to board trains at Oldfield Park when that part of the franchise was run by Wessex Trains. I do wish that some people would remember this!


No way! London bound trains leave Bath at XX13 & XX43 past the hour. It is hard pushed now to get a right time start at Bath now. This is partly due to fact that 90% of the punters joining at Bath can not get to grips that there are 9 doors in standard class for them to join the train by but that 90% don't seem to grasp this fact and attempt to get on via the doors which stop 10yds either side of the steps up onto the platform thus creating unneccasary delay.

Same happens at Chippenham/Swindon/Didcot etc!

Indeed, used to be xx12, xx42 although I was referring to down services.

Oh I do remember this 12hours and frequently point this out when tallking about overcrowding on West services. One example shown is the following post:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1534.30


I am in total agreement with you that overcrowding and shortage of stock is not a new thing, even going back to BR days.

What I will stand by is my strength of feeling towards DFT/FGW for reducing the length of Cardiff-Portmouth trains from three back down to two carriages and all the problems that has caused. Its not right that time and time again passengers are left behind at stations having to wait another hour for a service that they may not even be able to get on that one either which is happening all too often on this line.

So this happened again tonight. 2 trains were sent out of Temple Meads at pretty much bang on 5:30 - the 5:30 Paddington HST (just on time) and the slightly delayed Portsmouth Harbour service. The HST was put behind the stopping train and thus we were running 15 late by the time we got to Bath Spa.

Don't platform staff press a button to set the signals to send the trains out? If so, why didn't someone think it through? (Or is this too much abuse of "frontline staff" to make such a comment?). If not, surely either the controllers should have enough sense not to do something so daft, or surely someone at Temple Meads could contact them and get them to send the HST out first?

And the unit was 2v4!!

Staff press the 'TRTS' button which tells the signaller that the train is ready to start.

Bingo! (as an aside, I just worked out what TRTS means!)

So, is it fair to say that what happened this evening was an avoidable delay?

Most definatly.

Same thing happened an hour earlier.

1622 departed 1630
1630 HST departed 1630 although was given the path.

As a matter of fact the delay was justified, the unit departed at 1726 so it would be silly holding the unit for the HST at 1730

There was a lot of very nifty footwork at BTM this evening, was very impressed, considering it could have been a complete disaster not so long ago.

I'll need some correction here if I've some details wrong.

The 1622 FIT WEY arrived FIT 1640 and was a 143, was sent to platform 1 at BTM, I think it terminated there. 150/1 brought to platform 3 to continue the journey(?)

The 158 running the Parkway/Westbury came and went plarform 9, I waited for the 1722.

1710 BTM/Parkway arrived on Platfrom 11, consist of refurb 153, 150/2 and 158. 158 uncoupled and left to make the 1722 4 car. Platform staff and announcements excellent, making sure everyone knew what was happening. 1710 left a bit late so things had to clear before the Portsmouth arrived 1720 approx.

Very little time to couple up and load before we left at 1726 in front of Miniman. We were held briefly on the way out, not sure why before we got the clear.

Doesn't bear thinking about if that had continued as 2 car, full and standing as a 4, cleared a bit after Trowbridge.

So sorry you were a bit delayed there miniman, but we were late into Trowbridge as well, at least we were able to get on the train. I had thought we would be held to let you through, but we were just inside the limit I think when we left, as I say cracking work by the staff.

You're right as my WMN - GMV train passed it at Westbury, where they're due to depart there at the same time. I was surprised a 150/1 was going that far to be honest, but it didn't look overcrowded at all and everyone seemed happy.

Just for reference, the GMV service was a nice comfy TPX 158 again! ;D

EDIT: It's also worth saying that someone bought a ticket to Worcester Fgt St, good to see that people are going much further afield than Bristol

I see that you have posted on your blog regarding this, miniman (link below.)
http://thirdratewestern.blogspot.com/2008/02/that-stopping-train-again.html

By the way, many thanks for the plug and the Save The Train/Coffee Shop links ;D

Seems like the 1726 was on time then and got held outside the station for a bit. Anyay, unfortunately even if it is on time, the 1730 gets caught behind it by the time it gets to Oldfield Park. The obvious answer to the layman would be to timetable the stopping train out of BRI at 1736 or something, but no doubt this would clash elsewhere (perhaps crossing in front of a down service at Bathampton Junction).

I suppose the best solution is 4 tracks all the way from Swindon to Bristol.  A new Box Tunnel might be a challenge though  :D

I remember once when I was catching an ATW service from Port Talbot to Cardiff - the one that stops at the small stations like Pyle - it was is due to leave Port Talbot about 13 minutes before the FGW but was quite late and the FGW was just behind it. So it pulled over onto another track somewhere between Port Talbot and Pyle to let the High Speed train go past it to prevent that being late also.

^ Something similar used to happen to me before. About 2 years ago I used to get the Wessex local services from Cheltenham Spa-Bristol, and occasionally we'd stop near Westerleigh junction, a late Voyager would go roaring past on the other track.

Likewise west of Bristol, where local units sometimes left BTM on time, but were then held at Bedminster for up to 5 minutes until a delayed Voyager hammered past in the outside lane, so to speak!

 ???

I don't really object to that. Makes sense not to delay the Voyager even further, for the sake of a few minutes on a local service. Mind you, if they reinstated the down relief to just beyond Parson St it would make the holding of services at Bedminster much less frequent. (And at the same time, make the diverge onto the up relief just prior to Parson St, rather than after the station. Have you noticed how if the up train is going to be switched onto the relief after Parson St, it loses a minute because of the approach controlling, so it has to slow almost to a stop, then accelerate, then stop at Parson St, and only then switch onto the relief. )

And for those of you unfamiliar with the layout:

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l50/liamy_2006/swr/pasonstreet.jpg)

Coutesy of http://simsig.co.uk

Gosh, that's quick Devon Metro. And for those unfamiliar with the route, the trackbeds are all there and unobstructed, but as my suggestions didn't even feature as long term aspirations in the last NR plan then don't hold your breath anyone. 

You can view the whole layout, either by downloading 'SimSig' or simply by viewing the screenshots, of many signalling areas in our region.

Bristol: http://www.simsig.co.uk/html/bristol.html
Didcot: http://www.simsig.co.uk/html/didcot.html
Exeter: http://www.simsig.co.uk/html/exeter.html
Southampton: http://www.simsig.co.uk/html/southampton.html
Swindon: http://www.simsig.co.uk/html/swindon.html
Westbury: http://www.simsig.co.uk/html/westbury.html

Thats what the signallers who control the trains see - not as easy as you think  ;)

Wow! Thanks, d_m, from me, too!

I was going to suggest, in reply to John R's post, that there seem to be two points at which the up service may be diverted onto the relief line, just beyond Parson Street - and indeed there they are, on the layout!

One of those diverge points seems to be particularly fierce, so anyone standing (including the guard, often ;)) is taken by surprise and is very nearly sent flying!

By the way, John, I don't disagree with the local service being held at Bedminster for the Voyager to overtake - but if the local service had actually been held at BTM, a few more late arrivals for Bedminster or Parson Street could have boarded?

Yes, you're right, but in my experience the one approaching Bedminster is rarely used.

And if a service going to be held is held at BTM it would benefit all passengers, not just those for Bedminster and Parson St. But it would delay the service more, because the service has at least completed it's stop at Bedminster when it gets the yellow to follow the Voyager.

Still think replacing the down relief is the best idea. Maybe when there's a half hourly serive to Portishead it will be considered whorthwhile. Oops, sorry, that's going to be a river taxi now isn't it! 

I'm going to put a new Iron into this post,

Under BR trains had priorities so signalers had clear guidance on which train went first when trains were dispatched from stations, or held at Junctions.

IIRC Express Passenger Trains were 3rd on the list,

1st  Royal Train
2nd TPO
3rd  Express Passenger
4th  Express Parcels
5th  Semi Fast Passenger,

and so on, (nb, don't hold me to task for the whole order of priorites)

However today it seems to me when a service is late it seems to depend on WHY it's late as to how it gets signalled forward.

When a late HST is held to go behind a local stopper it's proberley late due to TOC Issues.
When a late HST is sent in front of the local stopper it's proberley late due to a NR issue.

It's got to be remembered that NR claim compo for trains running late due to TOC issues
But NR pay compo for trains running late due to NR problems.
When local trains run before expresses total delay minutes go up and NR make more money,
likewise holding a local service to let a Express in front will generally reduce total delay minutes.