Great Western Coffee Shop

I have read time and time again about this train or that train is late...so why do you think the train you are waiting for is late and what the answer to this problem

many possible causes.

train fault,crew difficulties,passenger loadings,assisting disabled passengers on to trains,awaiting signal because another service running late.

allowing the service more station time could help but to be honest it is one of them things that is always going to happen in my opinion.

Passengers not closing doors, people who don't get up until the last minute and spend ages getting luggage off!

passengers not paying attention, train just about to pull out, they realise and pull the passcomm

precisely....most of its down to passengers....saw one person attempting to get on the train who had 2 suitcases which were no word of a lie as big a domestic washing machine!!!!!!

My experiences on the 07:02 from Westbury-Cheltenham are that we either have to wait for a driver/conductor/train, or we have to wait to let the late running London Paddington train through. There was one morning a couple of weeks ago when we had to wait for a conductor coming from Gloucester on a train that was due in after we were due out. That's not something you can blame on passengers. 

People not being able to read.

Once had to stop a woman pushing the 'Door Unlocked' symbol, as obviously from London on holiday had never used a mk3!

The whole railway system is (or at least large areas of it) is becoming choked up with services, some single lines (former doubles) have been redoubled, but only in the trent valley (WCML) are EXTRA lines being added to take extra traffic.

Now if it was four lines London to Bristol you could have loads of local stations, local services and express services, How many HST's stop at the small stations between London and Reading (taking Slough out of the question).

HST's stop at shacks in Cornwall and take 2 Hours to cover less than 80 miles, and FGW call them HIGH SPEED SERVICES.

Four lines like London-Reading are much more flexible in operation of services.

Thats why FGW are loosing longer distance passengers big time to alternative road and  air competition from Plymouth and Cornwall,personally I think its only a matter of time before both Crosscountry and FGW are forced by financial consideration and the inadequate rail infrastructure in Devon and Cornwall to terminate their services at Exeter with just a local service linking Exeter,Plymouth and Penzance.After all FGW is little more than a commuter railway the market the HST refurb is clearly aimed,not their traditional longer distance services to the far south west
 West Coast and East coast main lines aside the Government generally sees the wider railways function in this country  as moving people over the shorter/medium distance with road and air taking care of the rest hence the above.

Terminating HSS at Exeter will only further deter people from using trains.
The proposition of spending 4 hours on a 150 witch will be crammed full with luggage lying around everywhere is not very inviting.
HST's pick up passengers at stops in Cornwall, they are used so why take them away?

I happen to disagree, as usual. The HSTs are a vital link and are WELL used. Very rarely do I see empty trains. Trains often enter Exeter with 0 spare seats so it would be uterly idiotic to terminate them all at Exeter. There are always plenty of passengers at Plymouth, a few at Totnes and plenty at Newton Abbot - why do you think they hold HSTs for units at Newton Abbot? Perhaps because Torbay, (larger than Plymouth) has a big population and needs a long distance train service, the devon roads are awful once you leave the oh so great 2 lane A38  ??? ::)

It's not a problem when HST's stopping at a few shacks but some stop every station on the Cornish Main Line.
Besides the expensive Golden Hind the HST is no longer a High Speed Service in Cornwall they take longer to get Plymouth-Penzance than the local units.

Due to the nature of the line Plymouth-Penzance has never been fast but it would be good if some HST's took 1hour 40minutes or less.

This would be bad for FGW in general as most cornis stations will lose there aprroximately hourly service and FGW will lose profits.
It is never going to happen as FGW make money on local services in Cornwall and people prefer to use HST's. Also if you can get directly to your chosen destination on one train more people will use it.

What you say woody is true, it happens now, the HSS service ends at Plymouth BUT the same train continues down through Cornwall as a local service,so everyone is catered for, in Cornwall there is more local traffic than long distance, and over the last two years i've actually noticed MORE people travelling long distance than before, and i've worked on the railway for a few years! at the end of the day there are only actually a handful of HST's that actually stop at the Cornish shacks, from PNZ the 0541, 0643 and 0743 are the only ones that stop at SGM and STS on the up.

Taken from Network Rails 2007 Business plan "Between 2000 and 2006 rail passenger demand has grown by up to 20 percent for journeys from Exeter and Taunton to London, and up to 40 percent to the Midlands. However, this is in contrast to the minimal growth for journeys to similar locations from Plymouth, and west thereof."
 The A30 into Cornwall is now a very fast way into the county now since the  Goss Moor dualling opened last year(as a friend of mine discovered when FGW taxied him from St Austell to Exeter recently/much quicker than rail),the A38 between Plymouth and Exeter has always been much quicker than rail,add to that expanding air services from Newquay.The point I am making is while the railways here stagnate the transport world around them is moving on.
 My point about terminating HSTs at Exeter was with reference to Plymouth and points west,not Torbay.

The A38 may be brilliantly fast, but what happens when there is a crash, and it is nowhere near the centre of Plymouth/Exeter.

Train on the other hand...

Train is also much quicker on average than the A380, which past Newton Abbot is a nose-tail crawl upto Torbay.

Exeter - Paignton (peak) 1hr
Exeter - Paignton (peak) (slow train) 50mins.

As you say the single carraigeway A380 through Kingsteignton into Torquay is a nightmare and desperately needs dualling.According to the Mayor of Torbay on local tv recently,subject to the funding package being accepted by the government work on the long awaited Kingsteignton by-pass will begin in 2010 transforming road access to Torbay.
  This will further erode rails competitiveness into Torbay if the effects of the dualling of the A30 and A38 roads in the rest of Devon and Cornwall are anything to go by.
  If rail is to prosper in this part of the world in the longer term as we all want, pressure needs to be applied to get real improvements to rail infrastructure here.Interestingly even the great man himself Isambard Kingdom Brunel chief engineer of the South Devon Railway between Exeter and Plymouth waived his fee because the "Atmospheric" fiasco ended up leaving us today with a poorly laid out,speed restricted rail route west of Newton Abbot which has haunted generations of train operators.

More on related issues in the link below.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1310.msg7190#msg7190

I'm sure we will still be drawing up plans for the Kingskerswell bypass, like we have been for 30/40 years  ::)

Hmmmm.

I'm sort of half and half here!

I think it would be mad to stop HSTs at Exeter! All should continue to Plymouth calling at Newton and Totnes. Infrasture should be improved to make sure all services take less than 3 hours. Some Plymouth terminators should call at Ivybridge to fill any gaps in local services.

There should be more trains from London/midlands to Torbay, after Exeter calling Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton, Torquay and Paington.

Therefore, local services should fill in any gaps, and call at the rest of the stops to Torbay: St Thomas, Dawlish Warren, Torre etc.

HOWEVER, HSTs should be fast after Plymouth, of which there should be half frequency (i.e. every 2 hours from London) with trains calling everywhere except: Hayle, Loiswithleel and stops between Liskard and Plymouth.

Local services should fill the gaps where XC services lack, and should call everywhere. Their should be an enhanced "Metro" style service for the stops near Plymouth, facilitated by the Guinislake, Looe (?), and Newquay branches. This should run from Liskard (and Devonport on the Guinislake branch) to Newton Abbot.

There should also perhaps be a localish service between Exeter and Plymouth (maybe originating from BTM or C Central) to ensure through journey opportunities..

See- every bit of line has fast and stopping trains! All bits of line need them!

PS- to be honest. For people coming from further afield, it should not matter if the A38 is faster for a stretch. The service should be as fast as possible before the slow bit!

Not possible to run through trains to Looe as passenger trains are not allowed through the yard from the main line to the branch. 2 hourly Newquay-Plymouth would work though!

That's a shame. It would boost usage of the Branch.

Yep- Plymouth to Newquay 2 hourly. Then all HSTs can axe Loisweith, Saltash etc. as stops! ;D

And while your at it, send it through to Newton. ;)

Then you can axe HST calls from Ivybridge (no more SDO). ;D ;D

Like your ideas, but sending local (or HST for that matter) services from Cardiff Central-Penzance at sensible times would be a nice addition.

Problem with high speed extensions is the generally awful timekeeping of some services, most notably the 1005, 1205 and 1505 from Paddington. Local services are rarely late although countless times have I waited for a delayed HST to Paignton and on the odd occasion a late voyager.

I think if the line could be improved from Newton Abbot - Plymouth services in Cornwall could then compliment the local services so that larger station get a more than hourly services.

Local hourly all shacks/2 hourly big shacks

As for Torbay, I don't think it needs a regular service to London out of summer times, perhaps at more suitable times that they are now (0738 via Bristol takes hours and hours)
(1415 faster service)
I'd suggest:

Keep the 0738 as it prvides a useful link to Bristol
1200 fast service to London titled the 'Torbay Express' get some cheap tickets going around, promotions and you may get more pax.
1630 (the down working could pick up the school traffic between Teignmouth/Torre and this would also mean you could arrive in Torbay before Lunch and depart back to London.

Totally agree but the financial realities of the FGW franchise premium profile do not bode well for the future in these parts.
 The 10 year First Greater Western Franchise started with subsidy from government but quickly reverts to increasingly large premium payments to government.
Here's a breakdown of the payments that First receives (for the first three years) then makes (for the following four years) for the task / honour of running trains Westward from London.
2006/07 First to RECEIVE a SUBSIDY of 97 million pounds
2007/08 First to RECEIVE a SUBSIDY of 46 million pounds
2008/09 First to RECEIVE a SUBSIDY of 14 million pounds
2009/10 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 20 million pounds
2010/11 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 111 million pounds
2011/12 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 168 million pounds
2012/13 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 233 million pounds
First can relinquish the contract at that point without penalty, or they can carry on for a further 3 years:

2013/14 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 302 million pounds
2014/15 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 363 million pounds
2015/16 First to make a PREMIUM PAYMENT of 427 million pounds
I would not put money on First making it to year 10 of the current FGW franchise.
  The point is that those rising premium payments have to be paid for by rising passenger numbers/efficiency savings.What happens if this does not happen. According to Network Rails 2007 business  and I quote "Between 2000 and 2006 rail passenger demand has grown by up to 20 percent for journeys from Exeter and Taunton to London, and up to 40 percent to the Midlands. However, this is in contrast to the minimal growth for journeys to similar locations from Plymouth, and west thereof",something will have give.

Yes but passenger numbers are already high from Cornwall to London, and last year saw an increase, a lot to do with the weekday service through to Newquay, First wouldn't gain anything by stopping HST's at Exeter because they would need to magic up some sprinters from somewhere and it actually SAVES them money by running the HST's through even if they do stop everywhere because of having to hire less units, passenger numbers in Cornwall and Devon seem to be on the up again lately now that the new timetable has settled in and (touch wood!!) FGW seem to have sorted out their staffing issues and other reliability issues in the far west. It also seems now that nearly all "Devon metro" services are 4 car 142's which has increased capacity.

Here is a relevant DfT link.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/franchisepaymentprofilesa

Anyone remember GNER? Great Service shame about the figures.

GNER only lost their franchise because Sea Containers couldn't underwrite the franchise payments, passenger numbers were slightly lower than expected but it was an internal problem. First are massive in terms of money and can underwrite the premium.

You may be interested in the quote below, from the Save The Train forum :


I wonder who Christian Wolmar was referring to?

Exactly just what I am thinking,when viewing some views there is an old saying that keeps springing to mind which goes,"There are nought so blind as those who do not want to see".

the best answer to HST's stopping at all stations in Cornwall is to have 50% of HST semi-fast through Cornwall, the rest stoppers and back up the semi-fast with local trains.

Problem with HSTs covering unit work in cornwall is the fact that particarly towards Cornwall HSTs are often late.

A list of HSTs today with the most delayed they were:

0705 PLY-PNZ ran up to 4 late
1117 PLY-PNZ (ex 0730 PAD) 4 late
1310 PLY-PNZ (ex 1005) 6 late
1510 PLY-PNZ (ex 1205) 4 late
1725 PLY-PNZ (ex 1405) currently 16 late

For Cornwall HSTs that is a GOOD day!!

It is a sad reflection of Rail privatisation in 1994 that here in the south west in particular we are still trying to get it right using the same old trains and infrastructure despite the vast sums of taxpayers money that have been squandered underwriting what has proved to be a very inefficient fragmented rail system.Huge sums of public money that should of gone into new trains and infrastructure over that time have instead "leaked" away funding that pseuodo private rail system, something which I believe both the private sector and government have been consistently covering up behind closed doors,a process that is still ongoing with FGW.When you see what BR achieved with electrifiction and Intercity 125 it makes you wonder where its all going to end in Devon/Cornwall.

Further to the original post about punctuality...

When travelling between BPW and SWI we are often held up by the coal trains trying to squeeze into the sidings to let the HST pass. Now before I upset all the EWS employees I am well aware that the reason that the train in front is running behind time may not be their own fault, but < 5 mins of slow HST running means > 10 mins lost on punctuality (Rant over).

I except there's no easy answer to this, I'll just have to learn to share.

I Know recently of an occasion where the Weymouth service was held at Yeovil pen mill  for 6 min for a late running  empty stock SWT train to arrive on the single line section from Castle Cary.