Title: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 10, 2016, 14:25:55 I've just had a weekend's cycling and camping with my son, in the course of which we used three trains: Temple Meads to Gloucester, Gloucester to Stroud, and Cam & Dursley to Temple Meads. The trains to and from BRI were both Weston super Mare to Worcester services. Everything worked well but a few things seem, perhaps, worthy of consideration – or at least have prompted thoughts in me.
The first train, from BRI to GCR, was busy with bikes; there were four or five already on when we boarded. They were getting off earlier than us so we started playing bicycle jenga – always worth asking where people are going – when a GWR staff member told us there were more bike spaces at the other end of the train. So a point to GWR for helpful staff. :) The spaces at the other end were a type new to me. Rather than the tippy seats, there was a sort of cycle cupboard with two sturdy wheel grippers underneath a general luggage shelf. Once I'd moved a suitcase from floor to shelf, it was easy to get our two bikes into the cupboard, where they fitted quite nicely. Not perfectly, as the cupboard was a tad short for my bike – and it's not a particularly long bike – but well enough. Getting the bikes from the platform through the carriage door was a problem however; it's a particularly narrow door with a tight angle. It was just possible to squeeze my bike with four panniers through, but not in the reverse direction. Now, I know GWR (and I think most/all TOCs) say you should remove luggage first but this highlights a problem: it's much easier to lift bike and luggage as one unit than as two. You can leave your luggage on the platform and then squeeze past the other boarding passengers to retrieve it, but that's not easy for you, them, or the train staff who don't want to be delayed. In this case, as only bike had luggage ('cos he's only 12 and I'm trying not weigh him down; he doesn't like hills as it is), we developed a system where he'd board/disembark with the panniers, I'd then hand one bike to him, then take the other bike. With more luggage or fewer people, it would be more of a problem. We were the only bikes from GCR to STD, which was a Swindon service, but there was a man in a wheelchair – convenient for us, in fact, as we were able to use the ramp after him! – so both tippy benches got tipped and one of the station staff got a bit shouty at some of the othe passengers for not moving along the train. The man in the wheelchair's companion wanted to put one of the benches back down for them both to sit on, folding his wheelchair, but no one, including me, could quite work out how to do it. There were little handles on the hinges that looked as if they should be pushed, pulled or levered but they didn't actually want to move in any direction. The train back to BRI was identical to the BRI-GCR train (it might even have been the very same train) but we didn't realise that till we got off. Only then did we see the tippy-seat space, having stowed our bikes in the cupboard. On this occasion we managed to get three bikes in the cupboard – there was another waiting at Cam, with one pannier – but they fitted ok. When I was planning this trip, I was leaning towards these services rather than the XC Voyager to get to Gloucester because I knew from previous experience that it's difficult to hang a bike up in those spaces while dealing with luggage as well; dealing luggage and a child's bike would have been worse. He's not tall enough to hang the bike up himself. Plus, often those three spaces are already (more than) occupied even if you book. My conclusions: in the absence of a guards van, the bike-carrying systems our trains have work reasonably well as long as the bikes don't have luggage. Also, demand for bikes on a particular train seems to get very high on certain services and be low/zero on others. There very rarely seems to be just the number of bikes a space was designed for. IME tippy seats deal with this reasonably well, dangly spaces not well at all – the space is there even when no bikes are but is inflexible, no way can be made for it to carry more than the designed number of bikes. Dangly spaces also have access problems – you can't access the inner (r/h) of the two spaces while the outer (l/h) is occupied. And current fashions in mountain bike handlebars mean that some bikes take up the width of two spaces anyway! Bike symbols on carriage doors should be made much more obvious. At present you cannot tell which carriage to put your bike on till you're almost by the door. It would also be great (though probably not possible) if there was some standardisation, eg always one end. Putting bike spaces in carriages with narrow doors is a very bad idea. Where bikes are stored longitudinally (and I don't think I've ever seen them go laterally), one end of the bike spaces should be left open to allow any bike to be removed without having to remove others first. This includes pillars and handholds! End carriages are a good place for bike storage as that's less likely to get in the way of people walking up and down the train. The bike cupboards with shelves over provide some flexibility for a bike to be loaded with luggage – this is usually much easier than taking the luggage off in advance – then removing the luggage to slim down the profile and storing the luggage on the shelf. If one end could be kept open they would be a very handy design. On the thorny topic of booking and paying for bikes on trains, I think a small charge – a bike ticket – might be a worthwhile solution preferable to having to select a train in advance. Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: chrisr_75 on October 10, 2016, 14:49:09 Going off on a slight tangent (not something that is new to this forum ;D) - you mention you were camping, so presumably were carrying your cooking equipment with you, which got me wondering if there are any regulations on 'mainland' trains on carrying flammable liquids, be that pressurised gas canisters, petrol, meths etc? I know Eurostar/Chunnel do not, or at least didn't when I last travelled through the channel tunnel, permit this (even though your car petrol tank can be full to the brim ::)), but I've no idea if similar restrictions apply to normal trains - I'm sure someone here will know...
Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: chuffed on October 10, 2016, 14:54:17 As a non biker bloke of advancing years* who sometimes gets frustrated with the antics and attitude of a small minority of bikers and their machines, I commend this very well reasoned and thoughtful response. One would hope it reaches the higher echelons of those who design our sardine can trains as offering a better perspective from a cyclists point of view. More power to your pedals, and I would hope that the very small number of bikers who think trains are for their bikes not passengers, reads this, in the hope they will see things rather differently
* before trainer makes an ageist remark, I will remind him, he is 2 years older than me ! Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: LiskeardRich on October 10, 2016, 16:09:19 Going off on a slight tangent (not something that is new to this forum ;D) - you mention you were camping, so presumably were carrying your cooking equipment with you, which got me wondering if there are any regulations on 'mainland' trains on carrying flammable liquids, be that pressurised gas canisters, petrol, meths etc? I know Eurostar/Chunnel do not, or at least didn't when I last travelled through the channel tunnel, permit this (even though your car petrol tank can be full to the brim ::)), but I've no idea if similar restrictions apply to normal trains - I'm sure someone here will know... I've had no issues with the Chunnel loaded with camping equipment, including around a 5 litre propane cylinder in the car. When I've backpacked in the uk I've used the aerosol style gas and corresponding stove although I've ditched that now as I've read too many exploding despite correct use, the final straw in the summer was one exploding 3 or 4 pitches away from me, resulting in a girl being airlifted to hospital. The metal of the cans are very thin, they get hot very easy as a knock on. Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: Tim on October 10, 2016, 16:53:14 I've had no issues with the Chunnel loaded with camping equipment, including around a 5 litre propane cylinder in the car. I think that the car is of relevance. I suspect that having it in a bag on Eurostar may have caused problems. Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: chrisr_75 on October 10, 2016, 16:54:54 Going off on a slight tangent (not something that is new to this forum ;D) - you mention you were camping, so presumably were carrying your cooking equipment with you, which got me wondering if there are any regulations on 'mainland' trains on carrying flammable liquids, be that pressurised gas canisters, petrol, meths etc? I know Eurostar/Chunnel do not, or at least didn't when I last travelled through the channel tunnel, permit this (even though your car petrol tank can be full to the brim ::)), but I've no idea if similar restrictions apply to normal trains - I'm sure someone here will know... I've had no issues with the Chunnel loaded with camping equipment, including around a 5 litre propane cylinder in the car. When I've backpacked in the uk I've used the aerosol style gas and corresponding stove although I've ditched that now as I've read too many exploding despite correct use, the final straw in the summer was one exploding 3 or 4 pitches away from me, resulting in a girl being airlifted to hospital. The metal of the cans are very thin, they get hot very easy as a knock on. I, er, may have deliberately incinerated (in a safe place on private land and observing from an equally safe distance) a not empty 500g propane/butane canister, the best way I can describe it as being a slightly out of control mini Apollo launch ;D ;D ;D Impressive amount of power from a small cylinder! As I recall, the conflagration caused by lift off was quite effective as a fire extinguisher! Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: LiskeardRich on October 10, 2016, 17:11:56 I've had no issues with the Chunnel loaded with camping equipment, including around a 5 litre propane cylinder in the car. I think that the car is of relevance. I suspect that having it in a bag on Eurostar may have caused problems. I took him to include the car carrying version by his reference to full fuel tanks. (when diesel was a lot cheaper in France, mine was nearly empty after driving to Folkestone from Cornwall, I was getting around 550 -600 miles on a tank, aiming to fill up 50 to 100 miles from Calais where diesel goes cheap. Most return crossings I was full to the brim with diesel) Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: CyclingSid on October 11, 2016, 09:16:40 I am a new member, but have been watching from the side lines for sometime.
A variation on the issues with spaces on trains, last weekend two of us went to Brighton. First leg Reading - Gatwick, all cycling spaces full of luggage, and overflowing in the aisles. Does this mean that GWR really needs a specific airport set to allow for the increased luggage requirements of air travellers? A similar situation occurs with Cross Country from Reading (and before?) to Southampton especially on Saturdays when there is a liner due to board. Cycle spaces and gangways full of luggage, and often only a four-car set. Do Cross Country speak to the Port of Southampton to plan for increase in demand. Or am I in La La Land? Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: ChrisB on October 11, 2016, 09:23:37 Your unfortunately in la-la land.....
To produce several sets to accommodate airport luggage isn't cost-effective, XC don't have any additional stock lying around (no TOC does these days) to increase/lengthen trains on odd journeys for boat traffic Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: grahame on October 11, 2016, 10:20:36 I was at a presentation by Richard Gibson of CrossCountry on Saturday, and he was showing us graphs of the loading of his trains along their routes. Alas, providing a train to handle the Bristol to Taunton peak in comfort would mean "carrying fresh air" from GLasgow to Bristol and from Taunton to Plymouth, and extra carriages to carry fresh air don't come cheap. I do feel his answer somewhat washed over certain options, but his simple explanation of the problem was broadly in line with he situation as I understand it. South West Trains do couple and uncouple extra units (sets of carriages) routinely at Salsibury, but CrossCounry with there much thinner and wider reach don't do it much at all.
On the North Downs line from Gatwick, trains are at present shared with the London to Reading and beyond suburban service, where peak train customers are typically commuter and tend to be luggage light. Using different trains - essentially adding a variet to the fleet - would be a nightmare for them. OK - them's the groundrules. Which isn't to say these things won't be taken into account during stock, timetable and train diagram changes. But then each passenger pays xxx pence per mile, and cycles and luggage pay 0p per mile, so the accountants would need to take some convincing ... Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: paul7575 on October 11, 2016, 11:09:25 XC do 'chip away' at the problem now and again. Until about 5 or 6 years ago the only XC service through Southampton was the hourly Bournemouth; part of the rationale for extending 2 hourly from Reading to Southampton was to provide extra capacity specifically to Southampton, and as a result usefully empty XC services starting back north at Southampton.
Of course as discussed previously there are line capacity limits preventing these trains running every hour, but I think XC would jump at the chance to run every hour if they could. Paul Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 11, 2016, 14:29:17 Going off on a slight tangent (not something that is new to this forum ;D) - you mention you were camping, so presumably were carrying your cooking equipment with you, which got me wondering if there are any regulations on 'mainland' trains on carrying flammable liquids, be that pressurised gas canisters, petrol, meths etc? I know Eurostar/Chunnel do not, or at least didn't when I last travelled through the channel tunnel, permit this (even though your car petrol tank can be full to the brim ::)), but I've no idea if similar restrictions apply to normal trains - I'm sure someone here will know... I confess this had never occurred to me. Yes, we had a butane-propane cannister, one with a screw thread valve. I've no idea about regulations – and now you've raised the topic I wonder about lithium batteries too – but in practice, I'd think these are perfectly safe. The cannisters seem to be pretty tough and there's no way gas could escape through the valve. The puncture type, with no valve in the cannister itself but relying solely on the stove to prevent gas escaping once the can is (literally) opened, might not be so safe; I avoid them anyway. I've seen fire brigade videos of cars with LPG cylinders demonstrating that in a fire they are actually less dangerous than a petrol tank (but presumably more than a diesel tank). Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: paul7575 on October 11, 2016, 15:29:09 I confess this had never occurred to me. Yes, we had a butane-propane cannister, one with a screw thread valve. I've no idea about regulations – and now you've raised the topic I wonder about lithium batteries too – but in practice, I'd think these are perfectly safe. The cannisters seem to be pretty tough and there's no way gas could escape through the valve. The puncture type, with no valve in the cannister itself but relying solely on the stove to prevent gas escaping once the can is (literally) opened, might not be so safe; I avoid them anyway. I've seen fire brigade videos of cars with LPG cylinders demonstrating that in a fire they are actually less dangerous than a petrol tank (but presumably more than a diesel tank). The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCofC) recently replaced by the NRCofT (for Travel), list certain substances as not permitted at all:Quote Items that are not permitted to be carried on passenger trains: Item Motorcycles; mopeds; motor scooters Furniture exceeding these dimensions, 30 x 70 x 90 cm Firearms (except as shown above) Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives I'd have thought that would unambiguously include any LPG canister, however I'd be surprised if they ever check... Paul Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: Richard Fairhurst on October 11, 2016, 15:31:08 I presume Samsung smartphones come under the "explosives" category?
(Apparently the Caledonian Sleeper company has requested that they are powered down on their services...) Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: Tim on October 11, 2016, 15:35:41 Going off on a slight tangent (not something that is new to this forum ;D) - you mention you were camping, so presumably were carrying your cooking equipment with you, which got me wondering if there are any regulations on 'mainland' trains on carrying flammable liquids, be that pressurised gas canisters, petrol, meths etc? I know Eurostar/Chunnel do not, or at least didn't when I last travelled through the channel tunnel, permit this (even though your car petrol tank can be full to the brim ::)), but I've no idea if similar restrictions apply to normal trains - I'm sure someone here will know... Nothing in the conditions of carriage except for a general prohibition of luggage that "in the opinion of [...] staff [...] may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or [...] may cause damage to property" Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: paul7575 on October 11, 2016, 15:48:39 Nothing in the conditions of carriage except for a general prohibition of luggage that "in the opinion of [...] staff [...] may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or [...] may cause damage to property" How come you didn't find the section I just found? Presumably by not cross referring to Appendix B... Paul Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: CyclingSid on October 12, 2016, 10:54:05 Comments on Gatwick and Southampton taken. Never having the pleasure (or the money?) I presume that there is copious luggage space on Heathrow services. I don't think most passengers going to Gatwick on the North Downs line would want to pay the sort of premium you do for Heathrow. But presumably some thought has been given by TOCs to NR intention/wish to run trains from Oxford to Gatwick. Let alone the current news (propaganda) that Gatwick are going to build another runway whatever, probably be long after I am using the great railway system in the sky.
Title: Re: Experiences and musings about bikes on trains Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 13, 2016, 23:10:22 I am a new member, but have been watching from the side lines for sometime. I'm sorry, CyclingSid, but we seem to have overlooked our Coffee Shop forum tradition of greeting any new member making their first post. So, albeit slightly belatedly, welcome to the discussion, and thank you for registering: as you have shown, it's free, and we're all generally helpful here! Regards, CfN. :) This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |