Great Western Coffee Shop

I have a trip coming up from Bath to London with a Chertsey complication.

Happy to leave Bath on the first weekday super off peak train (1013, I think) and spend the afternoon in London.  Then I want to travel to Chertsey to spend the night with a friend there.  The following weekday (lunch time-ish), I want to return from Chertsey to Bath.

My questions are:

1, ignoring time restrictions for the moment, is a Bath-London terminals super off peak return valid via Chertsey into/out of Waterloo?
2, if yes, is an overnight break of journey on the return leg permitted at Chertsey
3, if yes, the only peak time restriction I am likely to encounter would be Waterloo - Chertsey weekday evening.  Can anyone tell me what they are?

Thanks

Tim

Your ticket is certainly valid at Virginia Water and you can break your journey on the way back.  Worst case - you'll need a single each way between Virginia Water & Chertsey.

Ok thanks.  That's a start.  The online journey planner tells me that I need to buy two tickets for WAT to BTH via Chertsey but only one for WAT to BTH via Virginia Water which suggests that maybe a break at Chersey is not allowed but a break at Virginia Water is???

 

So, worst case as above then?

AFAIK the routing guide is just that now, a guide and the journey planner/valid itinerary trumps all.

Relevant Maps:
BL BL+WX LA LA+WX WC

My Interpretation:
Direct to Paddington
via Reading/Virginia Water/Staines/Clapham into Waterloo/Victoria
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Weybridge/Virginia Water into Waterloo/Victoria
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Surbiton into Waterloo/Victoria
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Wimbledon/Peckham Rye into London Bridge
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Wimbledon/Tulse Hill into City Thameslink

So I reckon* you could use it, but the drawback is you would need to go home the following morning via Salisbury for it to be allowed. I think you would struggle to get a journey planner to show it as I reckon you would need to put in more than 1 via point.

*don't quote me anywhere other than here on that!

The relevant restriction out of Waterloo is (not valid on trains) after   
15:59 and before 19:01.

Thanks both.  Are there any restrictions out of Virginia Water going west to Reading?

Well, that is a pertinent question; a lot of the text used to refer to "not valid when boarding", but it has been revised since those days to "Not valid on trains to depart"

This link is time sensitive:
http://traintimes.org.uk/wat/rdg/1859

The full restriction text is here:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/XC

Put all that together and I would say the first valid service from Virginia Water to Reading is the 1950.

I think this is a good moment to say that I have been recently working for Stagecoach, but have applied for a job with First Group.

I am utterly dismayed at the current state of affairs regarding ticketing, but hope that I will be able to make a positive difference in the future.

Congratulations, and good luck, Fourbee!  ;) :D ;D

Thanks Chris. I will keep everyone posted on here, especially if I am successful.

Use of the National Routing Guide is still codified in the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Using a mapped route from the guide is still allowed for; whatever a journey planner, itinerary, or ticket retailer might say. If the Routing Guide is used it forms part of the contract between TOC and passenger.

The journey planner doesn't trump all.

If a journey planner says a route isn't valid but the Routing Guide says it is, then that route is valid. If a ticket retailer says a route isn't valid and the Routing Guide says it is, then that route is valid.

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

 (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/images/structure/css/Conditions%20of%20Travel%202016.pdf#page=12)

Stepping beyond Tim's original question, two more general questions about routing

ONE


Can we rely on the fares quoted / routes offered by train times and similar sites?    As an example, I am travelling to Manchester for an early start on 11th October, and this is what I was offered:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/tt_mkm_mcr_20161011.jpg)

Yes - I know that the least changes route and sometimes the least elapsed time can be via Southampton - but is it really a valid route?  At £87 anytime single, it's a better value fare for people travelling from Southampton to Manchester that the £115 fare of a Southampton to Manchester ticket and if the routing is a valid one anyone travelling Southampton to Manchester could save £28 ...

TWO


What are the rules where specific routing (where "any permitted" is not printed on the ticket)?   The National Rail conditions of travel state (a) (b) and (c) specifically for "any permitted" but as far as I can see offer no guidance for tickets that do include routing information.   The natural assumption would be that you're limited by (a), (b) and (c) in addition to what's printed on the ticket, but that's not what it says!    I'm not about to try it out, but there seems to be an argument that a £52 anytime single Westbury to Oxford routed "not Reading" would be valid with changes at Newport and Birmingham New Street!

And if it shows on the Journey planner & not in the routing guide? I guess there equal in this regard?


I'd say not....any number of discrepancies could be programmed. There would be a need for any route to be corroborated in the places listed by the NCRoC.


is it mapped in the routing guide - that would be where I'd look/ask....


Again, can you get the journey planner to show this route? Or mapped in the routing guide? It sure isn't the shortest/least changes route.....


Edit - grahame - to clarify quoting

But my whole point is that the rules /routing guide / journey planner can (now? - what was it before?) be read as to only apply to "any permitted" - as written, there's an argument that says that "not via Reading" means just that - and it does not mean "as shown in the routing guide, excluding routes via Reading".

As far as I can make out, the shortest route Westbury to Oxford is changing at Swindon and Didcot, and the only way I can thing of doing it with just one change, if Reading isn't allowed, is to change at Worcester Shrub Hill.

My interpretation of that situation would be that technically, strictly the route was not valid.  BUT anyone travelling on that route on the basis of and the honest belief that the journey planner said it was OK (and with evidence of that, ie a journey planner print out or a receipt or seat reservation) would have an absolute watertight defence against any claim of fare evasion.  Ie, you'd be travelling on an invalid ticket, but it would absolutely not be your fault and you could not be held liable in any way.  Any judge would laugh you out of court if you tried to prosecute for such a technical infringement, the result being that such a route might not technically be valid, but de facto is valid on the basis that it would never be found invalid. 

13.3 above says


Where does that say 'any permitted'? It doesn't. it says


I would argue that 'Not Reading' means you have to exclude any route in the journey planner or Routing Guide that passes through Reading. It's as simple as that. Other routes being shown that adhere to Not passing through/calling at Reading are good to go

Yup, I'd agree, especially now the way NRCoC s written

I would agree that's the intent.  Similarly a Bath Spa to London "via Warminster and Salisbury" - a specific route - is surely intended to then go via Basingstoke.  Just not sure that's actually what the rules now say if you read them pedantically.  And I am NOT about to try anything outside the intent out, nor suggest to others that they do.

OK from there - are there any other routings that the Routing Guide/Journey Planner gives *not* then going via BSK? If not, you have you're answer - If there are, then they're also valid to all tense & purpose.