Great Western Coffee Shop

More than 300 rail passengers squeezed into two coaches from Oxford to London - because First Great Western failed to provide the booked train (link below.)
http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.2046409.0.300_crush_into_twocar_train.php

An InterCity 125 High Speed Train, with eight coaches and seats for about 500 people, should have been used on Sunday afternoon.

But a two-car Thames Turbo train was used instead, due to a "basic error", said FGW managers yesterday.

The Turbo had only 186 seats, which meant it was standing room only for about 50 passengers in each coach.

Richard Smith (FGW) said there were a "high number of standing passengers" on the train, but he added that customers were getting on and off along the route, so the total of 300 people might have changed.

He said:

That's interesting... I'm sure I'm not alone in having experienced a severe delay on a train leaving Temple Meads because of overcrowding, and being told "the driver refuses to leave the station until some people get off". And I don't blame him, either - I'm not easily scared, but it was positively dangerous in those carriages.

I have a feeling the Rail and Safety Standards Board probably need to amend or at least qualify that statement to reflect the possibility of extreme situations occurring.

Yes, indeed an interesting quote from FGW.

I also wonder how this particular journey compared with DfT guidance :

It's down to the guard and driver how many people they think it's safe to carry.

There is an excellent, well sourced and comprehensive item on the whole subject of 'crowding', on Insider's blog, at http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2008/01/up-close-and-personal.html .

To avoid duplication, I won't reproduce any of the text here, but it's well worth a look if you want some more background information on this clearly rather emotive subject.

(Thanks to Insider for this - again!)

The RSSB are really up against it on the issue of standing in trains, Many passengers don't like the new high-backed seats fitted on Refurbished HST's and units however the alternative was to fit seat belts, now what problems that would cause, if passengers had to wear seat belts, standing passengers would have to be banned.

Whilst overcrowding is not nice, it's actually bad for business, Joe public have media driven images that all trains are packed and vast numbers of the public JUST DON'T use trains, something like 50% of the public never use trains.

On the issue of safety there is evidence (depoending on impact speed) that in some conditions a packed train is safer than an empty one, I've  been in a Train crash and was stood in the isle walking towards the exit doors when due to the train stopping dead I went flying almost half way down the carriage, someone who crashed into a partition need hospitial attention.

The other forgotten Issue with overcrowding is that if passengers are left behind standing at a station to await the next train you get overcrowded platforms and that causes it's own dangers.

I would like to make clear that I was quoting Richard Smith of FGW regarding this.

That Mr Cole is wrong.

Chiltern Railways have refreshed ALL of their trains.

How dare FGW lie.

This Happens all too often recently.  I must say, i think it's Ludacrous that on a sunday the one fast train Oxford get an hour to London calling at Didcot, Reading and Slough is ran by not only a 3 car Turbo, but is a service from Hereford/malvern/Worcester.  These services are usually almost full by the time they reach Oxford, and half the time by a train that is just too small for a long distance service. I understand they are going through a Major over-haul of their HSTs but this is just rediculous.  You have to fight for a seat, and it can't be nice for those travelling from Hereford to have to dread the mad rush they have to face when the train gets to Oxford.  Luckily, i normally board the train at Charlbury, so it's rare that i haven't got a seat, but it's uncomfortable for all when you are surrounded by 10s of standing customers.  Even when Adelantes were regularly running the service, there was still just as much overcrowding.  Oxford is a big place, and even though this has been happening on the hour, every hour on the hourly frequency of fast trains to London on a sunday for a very long time, still nothing has been done. 

I'm new to this site, this is just something that has annoyed me for a long time!

Welcome to the site, Steve!

Let's hope that with refreshed HSTs coming in, that overcrowding should cease.

First can then look at punctuality!

Interesting quote from the comments section of the I Hate First Great Western Blog (link below) :
http://ihatefirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/you-cant-sit-down-not-even-if-you-pay.html#comment-c953537236053019674

Hmmm, that last post - can't really see the argument there, if everyone did that, it would be chaos.  If they are that worried about train safety, then they should drive - oh hang on, that's actually more dangerous.  Best stay at home then, oh hang on - most accidents happen in the home!

Is it not rather unfair to place the resonsibility on them?  presumably if someone died from overcrowding it would be them in trouble.

I think the responsibility is at least 50% down to the individual - if you see a train is over-crowded, you don't have to get on it.  Don't get me wrong, I hate having to stand on trains - I have to stand on the train into Exeter some mornings, but I think to just sit down in first class and demand a seat is not helpful, in fact, it's very selfish - much better that person finds an alternative way of travelling if they are that bothered.

Put it this way, my wife travelled from Newton Abbot to Plymouth on Saturday with our three (young children) the HST was packed out so she had to stand in the vestibule.  She made that decision.  However, judging by this persons attitude she had even more of a case to pile into first class (as she was responsible for 3 other lives as well as her own).  The argument doesn't stand up at all - its like taking your Vauxhall Nova along to a Volvo garage and demanding a XC90 because it's alot safer....

"It is very dangerous to be standing on a speeding train" - only if it crashes!  It's very dangerous to throw yourself it to a pit of starving lions or stick your head near a whirling circular saw....let's get some perspective!

I take it that we can be fairly certain you disagree with the I Hate First Great Western blog comment then  ;D

You bet!  Am I that transparent?!  I've even made me feelings known over there as well....albeit as anon.

I certainly agree that severe overcrowding is dangerous (because of being crushed) but theres no need to act like a spolit child about it "but my mummy says I must have a seat" - boo hoo!

<Breath deeply> <Breath> <Breath>......

Maybe whoever that person who made that comment should consult a copy of the National Conditions of Carriage, the contract that they agree to when travelling, which clearly states that a ticket does not infact guarentee a passenger a seat! I wish that person would get on my train, they would be off at the next stop!

... and (posting personally, not as a moderator!), I'd agree with you, vacman and zebedee!

People like that should be asked politely to get off the train, if they're so unhappy with the safety implications of their own decision to board.

Sometimes, I decide not to even try to get on a crammed 143 1753 service from BTM to Nailsea - but that's my choice, because I'm not happy with the comfort/safety situation.

No, it shouldn't happen that an already crammed train arrives - but when it does, it's no good having a tantrum and throwing toys out of the pram: that isn't going to magically produce another carriage!

;)

The HST seats were allready classed as high backed ::)