Great Western Coffee Shop

From Money Saving Expert (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/travel/2016/07/cheaper-train-fares-on-the-way-with-planned-ticket-overhaul?)

I wonder if this will include offering split ticketing where advantageous to the customer or whether this may be a precursor to ending the practice?

If the 'simplification' of gas and electricity prices is anything to go on, 'less complex and confusing' will mean less choice, and raising of the cheapest fares.

I can't see anything there about changing prices. They are just talking about a small change in booking engines (e.g offering other times and dates that would be cheaper). But does that really need DfT involvement?

It doesn't, and there is an absolute killing to be made by the first person to code a smart booking engine that knows some of the tricks (e.g. split ticketing) and shows different options through clever presentation (e.g. "this direct route is £80, but if you go this way it'll take an hour longer but only cost £20"). But no-one has yet done it.

I don't think we will see that soon.  It is adding an extra dimension (price) to a classic 'Travelling Salesman Problem', an algorithm for which has not yet been found in the Mathematical World. Go for the Fields Medal* and help us get cheaper fares!

*There is no Nobel Prize in mathematics - but that is a different story ...

It's not really simplifying the system though. It's suggesting the elimination (or restriction) of tickets which are not booked-train. That means less flexibility and requires more forward planning. It's great for people who are able and enjoy forward planning. Just the sort of person who already benefits from the current system! In fact, the type of person Western, especially Anglophone, society is designed for; read The Time Paradox by Zimbardo and Boyd for more on this.

It also amplifies the occasional problems when things go wrong with present booked-train-only tickets (like what if your train is so late that the next train arrives before it? etc).

This one comes pretty close, it's suggested changing onto a local stopper from a voyager at Taunton to allow splits at Filton Abbey Wood as one example on a Cornwall-south Wales

https://raileasy.trainsplit.com/main.aspx

Travelling from Tower Hill back to Paddington yesterday I was struck by the ease of ticketing - there were huge queues at all the ticket machines but as I have a contactless debit card I was able to tap in/out at Tower Hill/Paddington just as if I had an Oyster card - once back at Paddington (it was off peak) I was confronted with huge queues at ticket offices and TVMs to buy my ticket to Taplow.

I wonder how long it will be before the railways catch up with existing technology and allow people to pay fares via Oyster/Contactless cards? Surely the cost of installation at all stations wouldn't be very high, and it'd provide considerable savings pretty quickly..

..........or am I missing something?  :)

There are two issues here that I can see:

1) the issue here is the hugely complex fares system;
2) the price of most tickets being above the £30 contactless limit

TVMs accepting contactless cards is a logical step though, esp on board trains.

They are starting rolling out contactless on board.

Really? ORR's average figures for 2015-6 are a journey length of 38 km at 14p/km (revenue) - which is just £5.46 per journey. The median is presumably lower. I would expect the figures for single-trip (i.e. not season) tickets to be similar, without knowing whether seasons tend to be for longer or shorter journeys.
 
So machines which sell tickets for short journeys, much quicker than now, and use contactless payments, would cope with most sales.

That makes me feel even worse about the very poor deal we get here.  Here are the off-peak fares from Swindon to our nearest stations in each direction:

Kemble £6.40
Chippenham £6.80
Didcot £10.00

In other words how far can you get from Swindon for the £5.46 average fare?  Precisely nowhere

How can the DfT justify 14p per mile average fares when ours are so high (81p peak to London 34p Super off peak)

Without wishing to detract from the very important point made by quoting the fares, it should be noted that DfT do not justify 14p/mile, but rather 14p/kilometer (according to stuving, whom I have no reason to doubt). Over the distances mentioned the difference adds up, but I'm afraid I cannot spend time working out by what amount.  10miles is approx 16kms. I'm sure someone else will be able to give the detail.

For 100miles /160km your looking at £14 at 14p a mile or £22.40 at 14p a km

Its still 22p per mile and that is the average, so there must be many at less than that to make up for the fares we have to pay.

The figures are a surprise, but some things can be explained.

For Swindon specifically, there is the lack of off-peak return fares, and of nearby stations.

For those averages per journey; what is a journey? The ORR have successfully hidden any explanation of terms and methods where I can't find it. However, I did find this footnote: " A journey is based on travel from an origin station to a destination station. A train journey may include one or more changes of train, and one journey is generated for each train used." From that I conclude that a return trip is two journeys, as I would expect. Other than that I'm none the wiser.

As to the average revenue (i.e. income from all sources) per passenger km, it does look out of line with fares. OK, seasons are cheaper, but only make up about 30% of income. That will vary with TOC, but national averages are dominated by the big mixed city-based ones so GWR and SWT ought to be close to average.

I already have some figures by TOC for 2012/3, when the average was 13.3 p/km (so make a small allowance for that). It is striking that the big mixed franchises have figures very close to the national average, and for FGW and SWT it gives:

All averages in p/passenger km	FGW	SWT
Passenger income	13.3	14.6
Franchise receipts from government	0.0	0.0
Other	1.3	1.1
Franchised train operator income	14.7	15.7
Staff costs	4.0	3.4
Fuel costs (diesel)	1.2	0.2
Fuel costs (traction electricity paid to NR)	0.0	0.4
Rolling stock charges	1.2	1.9
Franchise payments to government	2.8	4.9
Corporation tax	-0.1	0.1
Other (including Network Rail charges)	5.7	4.5
Franchised train operator expenditure	14.8	15.4
Franchised train operator inc less exp	-0.2	0.3
Network Rail
Franchised train operator access charges	2.1	1.9
Net government grant	6.6	4.8
Other	1.1	1.6
Network Rail income	9.8	8.3
Network Rail expenditure	8.1	7.9
Network Rail income less expenditure	1.7	0.3
Total industry income	24.5	23.9
Total industry expenditure	23.0	23.3
Industry income less expenditure	1.5	0.6
Less net government funding	-3.7	0.1
Industry income less expenditure excl. government funding	-2.2	0.7
Dividends paid by train operator	0.0	0.3

The Network Rail figures are split between TOCs, so those shown here only relate to FGW.

I still can't see how that fits with the fares charged - it would need more details about the breakdown of revenue between ticket types to explain that, I think.

Thanks - so I did miss something! But neither of these are insurmountable issues if there is a will, and (certainly in LTV) I reckon the majority of fares are less than £30, so introduce the kit, ensure that it gives customers the lowest possible fare, and Bob's your uncle! :-)

TfL's implementation of the contactless system does not actually respect the £30 maximum.  They use contactless simply to capture the card details (i.e. the software on your card is not aware a transaction is taking place).  Later on (usually overnight), your journeys are determined and the fare for that day calculated.  This combined total is charged as one or many "card not present" transactions.

My understanding is that TfL have received special dispensation from the card networks to do this.

Currently there is only one daily fare cap over £30: Gatwick Airport to Zones 1-9 (ex Gatwick Express).