Great Western Coffee Shop

Yesterday's Mirror (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/railways-rip-self-service-ticket-7366628?)

Railways rip-off as self-service ticket machines overcharge passengers by hundreds of pounds

Blah blah blah.  This isn't new news.
You can't get Rangers/Rovers from a TVM
You can't get Advance tickets from a TVM
You can't get off peak tickets between 00.00 - the end of peak.

Actually you can now get Devon day rangers from gwr tvm's in Devon :-)

Well it's a step forward - but no one's told anybody!

Antepenultimate photo (B&W one) might win a caption competition though.

Oh I know it's a repeat of stories that we all know very well here ... but perhaps the "man in the street" doesn't - or the papers think he doesn't.

To be a pedant - you can get just about any ticket from a TVM - sit beside it with your laptop, order on line, and collect  ;D ... not sure what the stated lag time is- used to be two hours but I've collected a few minutes later at times. 

some TOCs (virgin for example) now say 15mins.....

Same here. Some machines, especially at Gatwick Airport, have horrendous queues. It's quicker to use the app to buy your ticket then walk over to one of the machines that are collection only. No queue for them!

If you can order it from a website, why can't the TVM replicate that so that the full range of tickets are available?

coz it can't display train times?

Any fairly basic computer querying a database over the internet can display train times, so why shouldn't a TVM be able to do so, after all a TVM is pretty much just a basic computer and touch screen, displaying fare information over some kind of network connection...  ???

software issues - so basic I doubt it has Java etc built in - also, they would ALL need a connection to the reservation database & the database holding number of tickets available for each trip.

It's not new news, no, but it's still pretty scandalous that the ticket machine at Charlbury, for example, will overcharge you for a return to London at most times of day, and a return to Oxford in the evening, unless you know exactly what you're doing. None of this stuff should be hard for TOCs to fix and I hope the media continues to hold their feet to the fire until they do fix it.

(For Paddington, Super Off-Peak Return isn't one of the default options on the TVM, so unless you know that this fare exists and to page through the screens to find it, you'll go for the default, significantly more expensive Off-Peak ticket. For Oxford, the cheapest ticket in the evening is an Oxford Evening Out, which the machine won't sell you at all: you have to know it exists and to buy it from the guard, in contravention of the stern posters telling you to buy before you board. You and I know better, but most travellers won't.)

Maybe it's about time they caught up with the modern world then - if you can stand next to a TVM with a smart phone and access the bookings databases successfully, then surely it isn't unreasonable to expect to do be able to do that directly through the TVM?

If you're willing to pay for this enormous upgrade through fares, I agree.

Otherwise it needs pricing into franchises. You're talking ^millions

SWT use the same S&B machines and DO manage to bring Super Offpeaks onto the front page display at the time they become available, so it doesn't appear to be a technology issue, just a case of someone getting the details loaded up.

There were a few initial teething troubles when they weren't quite appearing soon enough to board the first applicable train, but it's a long time since I've seen that issue at a TVM.

Paul

Sorry, not good enough. Charging consistent fares across all methods is not something that can be waved away by saying it'd cost too much, and I challenge the over the top assertion that it represents an "enormous upgrade". You can be damn sure they'd be all over it quickly enough if TVMs were under charging.

The cost of putting a browser onto a TVM would be eyewatering   ;D

I suspect that the problem might be the time taken / number of screens people have to go through to select and purchase tickets on their personal devices ... the most common tickets on a TVM will take just a very few clicks and transactions take (guessing) a minute or so.   Though  menu system offering any UK ticket, you're probably looking at 4 or 5 minutes

You may be right in talking "huge upgrade cost", ChrisB, but that's in extra machines ... and by taking away the short menus, you'll please newspapers like the Mirror and irritate the heck out of regulars who buy the same ticket with the same few keystrokes every week ...

How about clearer labelling ...

"This machine sells only a limited range of tickets for immediate travel from this station to be purchased on a debit or credit card.
If you're looking for tickets in advance, tickets starting from other stations, groupsave, other bargain specials, rangers, rovers or other products you can purchase them online and collect them here five minutes later.   In spite of having a thumping great slot marked "BANK NOTES" and one for "COINS", this machine does not accept cash"

A solution must be found. 

I have bought tickets from similar looking machines at Koln hbf, Rotterdam Centraal, Deft Centraal and even Deflft Zuid.  All of which sold me the correct fare and I think told me the train times (I am certain in Koln and I think so in Rotterdam and Delft).

If they want us to use the machines they have to sort it.  Or are they hoping that smart card or contactless will overcome the problem.

Good idea though they are, but I'm not sure smart cards or contactless will work under the current system, unless there is a wholesale overhaul of the fare system as the trust will not be there from the travelling public that the cheapest fare is charged as per the TfL Oyster card (which had a pretty simple fare system prior to Oyster). The complexity of the fare system and worry about being 'fined' already puts people off.

And returns aren't available on Oyster

They wouldn't necessarily need to be available for any properly implemented smart card system or even a 'paper ticket' system with a common sense approach applied to the fare structure.

I would imagine that the train operator would ideally like you to buy your ticket with as few options as possible. No dithering about what type of ticket you want, move away quickly and don't delay the people behind you. Not that that is right of course.

As an experiment, I went through the actions to purchase a return ticket (out tomorrow, back a couple of days later) of typical GWR journey via their web site. 

From where; To where; Day and month of travel; Leave after or arrive before; Time of day; Are you returning; - open or; - Day and month of travel; - Leave after or arrive before; - Time of day; Adult number; Children number; Railcard type; Railcard number; Submit; ---------; Choice of outbound train; Choice of inbound train; Choice of fare option; Submit; --------; Yes please, I want to save!; (Seating preference); (Plusbus options); (Travel Cards for London); Submit ; ----------; Delivery ("Ready within 1 hour" I note); Collection Station; Submit; ----------; 14 requred  boxed for a new user personal details and card; Submit;

Around 40 boxes to complete  / click / pull down - actual number later on will vary depending on selections made earlier.   And there's also reading to do and some decisions made not to complete boxes.

By comparison, I would expect a TVM walkup for the same ticketed journey to be between 5 and 10 selections to make (may have a play later).

I am happy to report a pop-up box telling me I could do cheaper:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/canbecheaper.jpg)

which was made possible because of the extra information I provided about my trip within the 30+ additional responses; in this case I had selected a higher cost trip to give me additional flexibility to return in the peak, but indicated a likely train in the middle of the day.

My Conclusions? 

* Different products - no way a TVM with the starting point requirement to sell common tickets quickly at present mirrors a browser based product with all the options.

* Extra buttons on the front TVM screen COULD take you through "help me" mode which is the browser equivalent, and perhaps "expert mode" which would allow direct fare database access and entry - find your ticket(s) as on BR Fares and enter the start date for each.

* Avantix and Ticket Office systems differ again ... on none of the systems can I purchase my own excess; I have to get an expert to help me, even if I know better that (s)he does what I want!

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/excess.jpg)

Yes, I'm talking ^millions. There's no current connection to the reservation/Advance fares databases for a start. Every TVM will need one. That almost certainly requires an upgrade to those databases to generate these connections. Plus all the necessary programming and possibly machine upgrades with more powerful chips.


Can't disagree there - a possibly removal of that first screen of 'popular' fares. This needs to carry the cheapest available-at-the-time fare along with all other fares chosen for display. But frankly, I'd be happy to see it removed, simply displaying all fares to the station selected. Put the choice firmly on the traveller. Obviously only displaying available-at-the-time-of buying fares for immediate travel as fraud is unfortunately a problem.

"but the TVM sold ne this ticket" has to be avoided as an excuse.

Then why do they offer so many ticket types?

I know the plethora of fare options is not just down to the TOCs but surely they must have some say with the ORR (or whoever it is that sets them; another confusion.)

It is down to the TOCs, generally.

I think it is mainly down to the TOCs collectively, i.e. ATOC. There has to be a cross-operator ticketing system, which they worked out based on what was there before. Simplifying it would mean upsetting those who use whatever ticket disappears, or goes up in price in a levelling process, and no-one dares do that. DfT I guess have enshrined the current arrangement in franchises, but I don't see why they would insist it be kept.

ORR's remit only covers protecting users, viz.:

• To promote improvements in railway service performance;
  
• Otherwise to protect the interests of users of railway services;
  
• To promote the use of the railway network in Great Britain for the carriage of passengers and goods, and the development of that railway network, to the greatest extent that it considers economically practicable;
  
• To contribute to the development of an integrated system of transport of passengers and goods;
  
• To contribute to the achievement of sustainable development;
  
• To promote efficiency and economy on the part of persons providing railway services;
  
• To promote competition in the provision of railway services for the benefit of users of railway services;
  
• To promote measures designed to facilitate the making by passengers of journeys which involve use of the services of more than one passenger service operator;
  

[and so on, less relevantly.]

I think the Minister would have something to say if ATOC invented another type of fare with consultation/approval from same. There would have to be very favourable reason to the Pax for the go ahead, especially after the (part-) simplification of a few years back.

But I don't think there's anything in a franchise preventing them; similarly, they could simplify further providing there were benefits to the passenger, without too much fuss, I reckon.

I think franchises say TOCs have to use the RSP, but not what that has to include.

Given how widely it is thought that the current system is too complex - even ministers have said it - any extra complication would probably fall foul of one or other item on the ORR's things to do list. But simplifying wouldn't, per se. Of course someone might think that a particular ticket type was needed in the interests of fairness, in some sense, so couldn't be abandoned.

You can see the problems with some of the discussions about Brighton line fares.   (Before you even consider Gatwick Express.)

In the combined TSGN franchise spec it clearly says that the separate Thameslink fares from Brighton to London should be phased out, which clearly simplifies things to some extent, but it wasn't specified how long this should take.   

So the current transitional phase (duration apparently unknown) still has Thameslink fares, although there's now no such TOC.   The difference between season prices is significant and equalisation upwards would cause hardship.   I bet no-one has even thought of the possibility of equalising to the mean, or downwards...

Paul

It has been considered - and the result means that they'll be retained for some time as they are the cheapest fare on some flows. I think they are going to equalise downwards, but over the franchise length, so they'll be gone by the end of it, but not so fast that they'll lose much money.

Much better to equalise over a period of time rather than remove them. I think that's the most customer friendly way of doing things.

Compare and contrast that with FGW/GWR and their massive fare rises on the Cotswold Line, done by manipulating validities.

They did much the same on certain SWML services by manipulating advance fare availability - I think it had something to do with the change in government funding also, but nonetheless the end result to the innocent passenger was a huge increase in fares, particularly on the first 2 or 3 services after the peak is over.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/railways-rip-british-passengers-pay-7408719   followup to the original story comparing UK fares & conditions to those in Europe. FGW heavily featured.

Comparison scewed though....swindon takes hust 60 minutes, not 90 as in the comparison. Of course you'll pay more for faster journey (but maybe not that much?)

It seems to me that no amount of fiddling will overcome the fundamental problem that the current fares systems is "Not Fit for Purpose".

Fares should be set Nationally with Zonal fares available on all public transport in  Metropolitan Areas as London plus Regional and Intercity fares for rail.

TOCs then become as in Germany just operators who basically bid  to run  so many train miles a year in a given area at given fares. Their incentive to collect fares is to cover the cost of the bid, train running costs and make a profit.

Do German train operators receive any subsidy or do they manage to make a profit from the difference between fares collected and operating costs? If they do make a profit from this difference, how is the situation so different here (or indeed there)?