Great Western Coffee Shop

Hopefully this is the right place...

My partner is about to buy an annual season ticket after a couple of years of not needing one. If she buys it online we can get a lot of Nectar points, however, discounts for poor performance aren't available online. This doesn't matter for the first year but I suspect it will for renewal. If she buys online this year will the local station have a record off it and be able to process the 5/10% refund? The station staff said they had no record off online purchases and didn't really answer the question. Similarly if (or more likely when) it stops working can it be replaced at the station which is convenient or does it have to be done online which is likely to take some time. And same question again should it be lost or stolen - the station said they wouldn't be able to help. Do people have any experience of buying seasons online?

This is a considerable purchase (^4K+) and it all seems very opaque.

Is it really the case that FGW can't create a central database of season tickets?

It's worth noting that from September 2016, GWR will be moving to the 'Delay Repay' method of compensation for delays. No more 'void days' or 'renewal discounts' for Season Tickets.

Season Ticket holders will have to claim for each journey where they experience a delay of 30 minutes or more. Compensation will be awarded pro rata based on the length of delay (+30, +60, +120) and the duration of the Season Ticket held.

Ah that's useful to know so it really comes down to faulty, lost or stolen tickets and do the nectar points outweigh the inconvenience.

thanks,

How does that work for those of us who have a season ticket expiring at the end of the year.  If the service is poor this year then we don't get a discount at the year end but we don't get delay/repay until September?

That's a question to ask GWR. It'll be interesting to hear what they say will happen should void days and renewal discount have accrued by September.

Er come again? So I will, after being delayed through no fault of my own, now have to spend yet more of my own time, to claim for something they already have a record of ? Obviously yet another money making scheme as they know 90% of people won't bother. And there was me thinking computers were there to make things like this easier .... Sigh.

Most TOCs who operate 'Delay Repay' have an online form for claims.

Get a Rail Travel Voucher for every delay and delight your local ticket office when you rock up on the first Monday in January with 5 dozen RTVs to use toward the purchase of your next Annual Season.

Or take a cheque every time and put them in a savings account.

These online retailers should be offering you the refunds on renewal automatically, if you go to a station and buy a season ticket renewal void days must be paid out automatically, in some cases where the ticket is priced by another toc this means the clerk must manually calculate the amount due, I would go threw the customer services department of the company you travel with.... Also worth pointing out that while I am a nectar fan, the free journey vouchers you get with some toc's are worth more if you would use them.... If your season ticket is over 3k get a nectar Amex card then you will collect points on the ticket and get ^100 worth of points for spending 3k in the first two months (the ^25 annual fee is waived in the first year)

AIUI the TOCs that have already changed (its been going on about 5 or 6 years now) have had a year of transitional arrangements for existing season ticket holders, in that you carry on with the current arrangements until you happen to renew.

I have a feeling that the concept of 'void days' also disappears once delay repay is in use.

Paul

Is 30 minutes standard for getting 'Delay Repay'?

I thought the current punctuality standard was 5 minutes for the Thames Valley services.

Punctuality standards of 5 mins and 10 mins are used primarily to calculate performance percentage figures for Charter discounts at the end of a monthly or longer season ticket when it is renewed; but under delay repay they are no longer used for refund purposes.   The whole idea of delay repay is to get away from knocking 5% off everyone's renewal whether delayed or not, and only compensate people for the precise journeys they actually undertook, i.e. whenever they are more than 30 mins late.

Paul

OK so if I've got a season ticket, rather than getting 5% in respect of a month's crap performance, regardless of which train I get (or even if I travelled on the day in question) I'll check for one which was 31 mins late and put in a claim stating that I was on it? - job done!

The last three or four years I travelled I got 5% off each so it I was paying less for my annual each year.
But the service was poor with the punctuality maa being around 80%. Which meant out of a weekly commute of 10 trains 2 were late each week and that was how it worked most weeks. Nearly always the ones from work especialy when you wanted to be home early!

I'm no expert, but that sounds a bit like fraud to me...

And that's why you won't see payouts being automatically given, and you have to claim - so you commit fraud if you claim for a service you weren't on (deliberate act) rather than nominating your out/return services & the operator assuming your on them for payout purposes.

I detest that things have to be done this way, but Brits will always rip the system off.....

If someone has purchased Advance tickets for a specific train using a GWR account and that train is cancelled or heavily delayed, explain to me why monies cannot be refunded directly to the customer's payment card without the customer having to faff around filling in forms?

The answer for season tickets (aside from running a more reliable service) would be to retain the monthly/annual discount, but fix it at a less derisory amount, reflecting the inconvenience suffered- 15% monthly/20% annual would be acceptable - the excess could perhaps be partly funded out of the vast amounts of compensation paid by NR to GWR (which we're not allowed to know about in any detail despite the fact that it's funded by us).

Virgin West Coast already do this. Perhaps other train companies will (or should be compelled to) follow suit.
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/delayrepay/automatic

I suspect only if they are dragged kicking and screaming  - far easier to hide behind processes and keep the money in the Corporate coffers.

Chicken and Egg it's a crap system so we try and rip it off.

I don't see how that is a better answer than delay/repay which actually reflects on the delays experienced by each passenger.  Granted, the passenger has to keep a log and claim rather than it being done automatically, but surely that's better than getting a 20% discount if punctuality falls 0.1% below some figure or possibly getting no discount at all (despite no doubt being delayed many times over the year) if that figure happens to be 0.1% above the trigger?

I've often thought that a good approach would be to abolish thresholds and link compensation to a 1-X calculation. For example if punctuality is 93% then a 7% discount applies, and if it is 85% then a 15% discount applies. As it stands there is no incentive for the TOC to try and improve services once they cross the 5% discount level (which is every year and must surely be an expected level of compensation).

One quick way for the TOC simply to add further delay minutes to its timetable

That's an interesting idea.  The reliability issue would need to be factored in as well somehow (otherwise there would be too much of an incentive to simply cancel trains rather than run them late), but I've certainly heard of worse suggestions. 

Worth pointing out that although the London & Thames Valley region is bumping along at almost 5% below the trigger rate for punctuality, all other areas of the business are currently above the trigger rate so are not paying out any form of renewal discounts - something that delay/repay will make much fairer.

I would view a cancelled train to be a late train - if a train doesn't run, or doesn't stop to pick up its passengers (which is the sole purpose of trains), then that contributes towards the statistics in my opinion.
Re. The concentration of poor service in the Thames Valley it is an interesting point. My journey takes 20mins each way so under delay repay I will have to wait for a delay of 150% of my entire journey before I can claim(?!). That would seem to penalise commuters who tend to have the shorter journey times and who represent 100% of annual season ticket holders. This seems perverse given that the switch from 5% discount to delay repay is claimed to be targeted at improving our lot in life.

I guess it depends how often you are delayed over 30 minutes each year - from what's been said on here from various commuters who post (including yourself) regarding the recent signalling issues then surely you'd be massively 'quids-in' compared with the current 5% annual renewal discount for poor punctuality.  That is unlikely to go to the maximum it can of 10% as reliability hardly ever falls below the trigger rate, indeed once the current massive upgrade programme is finished in a few years I would expect it to probably disappear all together.

I'll repeat again, if you are a GWR season ticket holder outside of the LTV area (inlcuding lots of similar length commutes into Bristol/Exeter etc.) then you currently get no discount, but under delay/repay you will be eligible for one every time you're 30 minutes late on either leg of the journey throughout the year.  That might only be a dozen or so times on the better performing routes, but it still reflects better on the customer experience than no discount al all!

Another point is that you are very fortunate that your commute is only 20 or so minutes for a journey of over 24 miles.  That compares very favourably with virtually every other commute into London of a similar distance by any operator.  As an example our forum member TaplowGreen pays slightly less for his slightly less 22.5 mile commute but he is faced with an average journey time of twice the one you have.  In other words, you win some, you lose some!

Except of course they can't. Service Level Commitments specify journey times.

Not all of them by any means

Sorry, I don't quite follow. Could you expand further to back the assertion that TOCs could just add time to services to prevent compensation payouts or rig performance statistics?

Not sure what's to add. Not every point to point or point to PAD has a specified max journey time in the SLC. So there's nothing to prevent a TOC from massaging (extending) journey times to avoid/reduce Delay/Repay compensation.

The 5% charter discounts are ages-old agreed charters covered completely (& maybe more) by NR/other op comp payments. Can you really see TOCs agreeing to any increase if not covered by comp income?

I would suggest that moving to delay/repay will actually encourage less padding as with the delay threshold set at 30 minutes rather than 5 or 10 minutes it's less likely that adding a couple of minutes here or there would make so much of a difference in terms of the total number of trains delayed based on that threshold.  However, all TOCs still produce performance figures based on the old passengers charter 5/10 minute threshold, regardless of whether they have adopted delay/repay, so perhaps nothing much would change.

So you're suggesting TOCs could add time to intermediate journeys but somehow keep to the overall SLC time for the end to end journey. How would that work?

All end to end journeys have a specified maximum time in the SLC. Major stations en-route on longer journeys also have maximums. I can't see how adding time to intermediate journeys not specified in the SLC, to beat compensation, would work without breaching the SLC and thus the franchise agreement.

And where do you decide to add that time if you think it is possible to pad an intermediate journey without effecting end to end time? You'd need a crystal ball to predict delays that would fall just over 30/60/120 minutes and then pad that service's timetable to add the journey time minutes to bring the delay under the compensation threshold times. Whilst also ensuring that your gaze into the future and manipulation doesn't affect the SLC end to end maximum journey time.

Service Level Commitment maximum journey times were brought into Franchise Agreements specifically to prevent TOCs from further padding of timetables.

I know TOCs can be craven, but this is one example where timetable manipulation can't work to their benefit. Therefore I contend your assertion is a stupid one.

except that it is in the TOC's interest to attract customers with a fast timetable. 

Quite. So there's a middle line that TICs are willing to meet. But if they're codts rise significantly. They'll be looking for a way to reduce them?

BMM, please tell me on which page all these journeys apoear in the SLC. If part of said franchise, they're availBle online. Link please?

All routes are listed in the Service Level Commitments (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-great-western). They are currently:

Great Western Main Line
A1 London Paddington ^ Reading ^ Swindon.
A2 London Paddington ^ Cardiff Central ^ Swansea.
A3 London Paddington^ Bristol Temple Meads/Weston super Mare
A4 London Paddington/Swindon - Cheltenham Spa
West of England
B London Paddington ^ Plymouth / Penzance
Thames Valley Inner
C1 London Paddington ^ Reading
C2 London Paddington ^ Hayes & Harlington (applies throughout)
C3 London Paddington ^ Greenford / Hayes & Harlington (dated)
C4 Slough ^ Windsor & Eton Central
C5 Maidenhead ^ Marlow
C6 Twyford ^ Henley-on-Thames
Thames Valley Outer
D1 London Paddington ^ Oxford (Fast services)
D2 Reading ^ Oxford
D3 Not used
D4 Oxford ^ Banbury
D5 Oxford ^ Worcester Foregate Street - Hereford
D6 London Paddington ^ Reading ^ Newbury ^ Bedwyn
D7 Reading ^ Basingstoke
North Downs
E Reading ^ Redhill / Gatwick Airport
Regional Interurban
F1 Cardiff Central ^ Portsmouth Harbour
F2a Cardiff Central ^ Bristol Temple Meads
F2b Bristol Temple Meads ^ Westbury
F3 Westbury ^ Southampton Central
F4 Westbury ^ Weymouth
F5 Westbury ^ Swindon
F6 Southampton Central ^ Brighton
Bristol
G1a Bristol Temple Meads ^ Taunton ^ Exeter St David^s
G1b Bristol Temple Meads ^ Weston super Mare
G1c Filton Abbey Wood ^ Bristol Temple Meads
G2 Bristol Temple Meads ^ Severn Beach
G3 Bristol Temple Meads ^ Cheltenham Spa - Great Malvern
Devon and Cornwall
H1 Exeter St David^s ^ Plymouth
H1a Exeter St David^s ^ Plymouth
H2 Plymouth ^ Penzance
H3 Exeter St David^s ^ Exmouth
H4 Exeter St David^s ^ Paignton
H4a Exeter St David^s ^ Paignton
H5 Exeter St David^s ^ Barnstaple
H6 Exeter Central ^ Crediton
H7 Plymouth ^ Gunnislake
H8 Liskeard ^ Looe
H9 Par ^ Newquay
H10 Truro ^ Falmouth Docks
H11 St Erth ^ St Ives

Every one of those has a maximum journey time. Any significant time added to an intermediate journey on any of those routes would have a knock on effect for the end to end journey. That would likely see the tightly specified maximum journey time exceeded.

Again, I say it is neither possible, or in their interests, for GWR to arbitrarily extend journey times to reduce their delay compensation payments.

I'm saying that there is a few minutes leeway in the majority of these services (say, up to 7 mins) that would reduce the number of trains subject to dekay/repay. Whether that meets your definition of 'significant' I don't know.

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating this

Nothing to advocate. GWR won't be changing any timetables to beat delay compensation. There's the maximum journey times to stay under, pathing to keep to, clockface timings for many services, connection times to maintain. And not least, no idea when and where delays will occur.

The experts agree...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/commuters-ordered-to-repay-thousands-after-southern-railway-compensation-scam-a3178031.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/commuters-ordered-to-repay-thousands-after-southern-railway-compensation-scam-a3178031.html)

I've just done the calculations for my season ticket and I think the switch to delay repay will mean I get less compensation for delays and need to do lots more paperwork to claim.

Currently I've got a 5% discount for the last few years.

Under delay repay (assuming GWR uses similar rules to Southern and South Eastern) it's 0.1% of the annual season ticket price every time I'm delayed by more than 30 minutes but less than 60 minutes, and 0.2% of the annual season ticket for delays of over 60 minutes (i.e. assumes I make 500 journeys per year).

According to recenttraintimes.co.uk my usual trains only have delays of 31-60 minutes around 2% of the time and delays of over 60 minutes 1% of the time.

So my compensation once delay repay comes into force will be around 2% but I'll need to fill in a claim form around 15 times per year.

I think it's a fairer system, especially for people who've paid a small fortune for a walk up ticket, but I think the amount of compensation paid out will go down even if we ignore the people who won't bother to claim.

Apologies for being thick; do you actually have to travel on these delayed trains to get compensation legitimately? If you were a season ticket holder and noticed the train you intended to travel on was delayed and you made alternative arrangements does that effectively exclude you from getting compensation?

Checking a couple of recent franchises that have 'delay repay' rather than Charter discounts, there seems to have been some movement on the number of single journeys deemed to be made on an annual season, with both GTR and Virgin EC using a basis figure of 464.   GTR/Southern's is down from its original 546, which was presumably based on more than 10 singles per 52 weeks, with no allowances at all.

500 is probably fine for a rule of thumb, but it will be interesting to see if DfT get a grip on this and issue standard calculation rules so that every TOC uses the same figure.

Paul

And similarly if the train you intended to travel on was cancelled, so you delayed your journey to the station and caught the next one.

That comes under the delay stat....if your following train is more than 30 mins arriving after the cancelled was due, then you qualify - if less you don't. I think that applies for comp now.

Interesting article on 'delay repay' including sobering news of what happens if you try to cheat the system too blatantly!  One part which got my attention is where it mentions the delay threshold being reduced from 30 minutes to 15 minutes which the government are apparently 'actively considering'.

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/article1654-Delay-Repay-Losers

A 15 minute threshold would, at a guess, quadruple the number of times the average person could claim for a refund, so would be extremely generous if it comes to fruition.