Great Western Coffee Shop

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News%20February%202008/070208_FGW.html (http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News%20February%202008/070208_FGW.html)
Thoughts anyone?

There are already sets going around without the buffet...

Are these set diagrams or will they change? Bit of a stitch if you board expecting to find a buffet for a sandwich etc and it isn't there  :(

I thought that too actually but I found this and these are different diagramms to the current ones.

Not a good move and that applies to EMT as well who are planning to do it as well. Why not reverse and refurbish the remaining buffet cars with standard accomodation like it used to be on the Western region, some TRFK and some TBS. Surely that makes more sense then scapping them .

They definitely are, I've been on 2 already.

So maybe these are additional or changes maybe.

Not good. >:( I wish good luck to the customer hosts who will have to start pushing a wonky trolley down packed commuter trains! ???

Bad move. Does it really improve reliability? I thought that the reason for FGW's unreliability was due to FGW's incompetence!

Really! Track problems, signal problems, stock problems, problems with the onboard toilets. Blah, blah, blah. Other TOCs manage to deliver an acceptable service with all these obstacles for goodness sake!!!!!!! And do they complain? No! They just deliver a competent service instead!
 :D

We are using the same 2 HST's that had the buffet cars removed for a trial period in January for the above mentioned trains for the next couple of weeks for 'further trials'. If this is the begining of the slippery slope of non buffet HST's, then the ivory tower merchants better think again. As both nominated HST's are supposed to be high density 2+8 sets with buffet cars.

If they REALLY must go ahead with this mad idea why don't they remove the buffet (the heaviest vehicle) and replace it with a TSO, 80 more seats per train!

There is a small difference between EMTs and FGWs plans... EMT are providing an alternative cooking facility with a galley in a TF.

At least it is on a train that needs as much speed as it can get.

I'd rather a trolley as i don't leave personal belongings/my seat on a busy train!

Just how long will it take before the 2+7 HSTs (no Buffet) sets, become switched around due to operational reasons and work a Restuarant Car Service like the Golden Hind.

Mind you then the MP's and DfT staff who use the service will kick up and hopefully......, well I can dream.

Making HSTs with and without Buffets REDUCES operational flexibility.

BRIGHT MOVE FGW.

Considering how many HSTs are usually available at Paddington I can see it being a very rare occurence as set swaps are fairly common.

Anyhow, the only reason this is happening is because there aren't enough buffet cars on lease for all of the sets!

A refurbed HST was at Worcester today at about 4pm, with an unreferbed buffet car!

Thats quite common evrywhere at the moment. If the no buffet trial is succesful the un refurbished buffets will be removed. If not they will be refurbished.

What will happen to the unreformed buffets that are not used? ???

If you say "scraped" I'll be annoyed. They are perfectly good carriages!  >:(

Someone will find a use.

In case anyone has missed it, there was another discussion about HSTs, TGS and buffet cars, on another thread in this forum - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1619.msg11189#msg11189 onwards.

However, as Btline pointed out (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1619.msg11443#msg11443 ), that was not particularly relevant to the original purpose of that other thread!

Moderators - if it's not too much work, is it possible to split the above exchange (individual items from http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1619.msg10888#msg10888 onwards, as appropriate?) from that thread to this, to make it more relevant and comprehensive here?

Thanks, Chris.

bring back the buffet cars thats all i have to say.

Plus i swear i've seen a 2+7 already

Yeh, you would have. Two sets have been going around already. These are new diagramms for the sets or extra sets.

Anyone seen either today?

I've been told that the buffet cars have a filtering system to ensure that the water used for
drinks is suitable for human consumtion. This is not the case with 2 + 7s, there are no filters for the boilers in coaches A & H ( housed where the toilets used to be ). Are FGW going to remove the 'Not drinking water' notices from the remaining toilets?

Personally I wouldn't dream of drinking water from a train toilet  :o

Its the same water thats being used to make the hot drinks on the new trolley system - I'll take a flask to work in future!

Bearing in mind that boiled water is safe to drink ;)

If its that safe why do buffet cars have a filtering system?

The trains are leased as a set so the buffet cars will stay with FGW the saving being made with less fuel being used!







Water used will have to fit for human consumption so I wouldn't worry about your flask just yet

Yep - I work for FGW and have been advised thar the water has been tested and is safe to use - so no worries there

The 1530 to Weston was a 2+7, took 2 1/2 hours to Bristol. Very nice cards in the seat back pockets describing the choice (or lack of it) now on offer. Train was rammed past TM, so trolley would not have been able to get down.

The reduced length didn't seem to make any difference in terms of making up lost time. 30 mins down at Didcot, 40 down by TM. 

O dear!

Looks like some idiot decided to trespass near Acton! Presumably you then followed a unit from Bath - Bristol too. It all depends on the driving I find!

I can't see how removing the buffet can help reduce journey times. ???

Yes it is lighter, but does it really make that much difference?

As for a trolley.........!  :D

Why not remove a first class coach?

Here is a relevant quote from the Network Rail Business Plan 2007 :

I'm still not convinced.

And also, as the Buffet car has no standard seating, what do they mean by "seating reconfiguration will provide additional seating capacity?" I take it that they won't remove tables in First Class!

2+7 HST's do seem to keep time better, worked one again the other day (coach B missing, not a high density set!!) and we were early everywhere! they could just build a smaller buffet area in a TSO and have an extra standard coach!

A bit like the micro buffets they retrofitted into some Mk 2s 20 years or so ago? Sounds like a good idea, though I'm not sure I would want to work in one all day.

I can see the next step now... run it in a 1+1+6 formation, call the mini-buffet a "Refresca Cafe Bar" and rebadge them as "Mark II Adelantes"  ;D

 ;) :D

And then give first a discount as they become rammed and dont have the same service or supply (do you know how often there is no white wine left by oxford on the 1722/1822)

I dont like the way thi is heading

Take your own wine? :P

Was told today that the trials are now suspended UFN.

Confirms what a TM told me yesterday.

I seem to remember reading in the railway press that a 2 + 7 HST [without a buffet] would be able to save 7 minutes on the Bristol to Paddington run. This saving was not going to be used for reduced journey time but to aid timekeeping.

They could save 3/4 mins if they ran at linespeed between Reading and Swindon  ::)

What speed do they run at? 110?

Its timetabled for 110mph running, linespeed 125mph.

Mad really.

Was on the 16:55 from cardiff that was timetabled to be non buffet, aparently the trial has been caned outright

On the plus side, the MML set it was has stupidly comfy seats!

I sure hope the trial has been canned, now hopefully the unrefurbished buffet cars will go for refurbishment and return with Standard class seats and Tables :) :) :-*

Not only mad, but a disgrace when our services are so much slower than 30 years ago. Other routes have huge investment to speed them up. Our TOC can't be bothered to run at linespeed on a large portion of its journey. Presumably it's just an economy measure? Usually the thinking is that the faster you make the services the more people travel and hence the extra cost is justified. So why is the GW Main Line any different?

 

 

I think 90% of the travelling public would prefer a slower reliable service than a faster service that will run even later!

The main considerations for passengers are the Price of the journey and not so much the time taken but realiability of arriving.
Of course if the train takes all day, flying might be considered better, but when cheap tickets from Waterloo to Manchester via Bristol and Shrewsbury were sold on SW&W services they were quick to go. Journey time is only part of the equation.

Also running at less than line speed adds more charter recoverery minutes to the timings hence more trains arrive "on time"

Not STRICTLY true about pricing either though, yes it does come into it but most passengers tell me that they wouldn't mind paying higher fares for a more reliable service. If speed were that important then noone would ever travel from cornwall to Exeter!

Maybe some would pay more for a more reliable service, but with some of the high prices being charged some people are already being priced off the trains. You don't get to here from these people when working on trains.

No, but I got to talk to all the VERY happy half term families last week who were absolutely gobsmacked by how cheap Devon and Cornwall fares are, people who were saying "I don't know why we bother taking the car"!, when you have fares like Looe to Plymouth at ^5 CDR, which on a groupsave is ^1.25 each then people don't ditch the train!

Maths lesson: Group Save is four people for price of two. Looe to Plymouth CDR = ^5. Two people therefore = ^10. Therefore with a group of four for the price of two: ^10 divded by 4 people = ^2.50 each. Not errr ^1.25...  ::)

It's quite practical to time a railway at a speed lower than its maximum theoretical speed. If the service is running normally, you can arrive early at stations - if the service is running to pot, it aids service recovery due to longer running times.

The South Western division of the Southern Region is timed for 90mph running - whereas all the trains with exception of the 455s and 159s can attain 100mph.

Service recovery in simple terms. If 5 minutes late at Reading you can be practically be running right time if you blast it between Reading & Swindon. I'm sure HSTdriver would confirm.

I agree but the fact is a lot of familes are led by the media to believe that trains are Expensive, Slow, Overcrowded, Dirty and Unsafe.

The Media (fleet street especially) have always targeted the Railways!!

Why if a Car leaves the road lands on the Railway and is hit by a train is it a Train Crash?

Next time a Plane crashes onto a Motorway I bet big bucks it's NOT called a Car Crash!

On the point of Safety (I'm touching wood) it's to the best of my knowledge that NO train passenger has been killed on the Railways of Devon and Cornwall, unless the passenger was responsible (at least in part) for there death, such as leaning out of the train, trying to board a moving train, or in the case of Bere Ferrers (Beer Ferris) alighting from the wrong side of the train.

Couldn't agree more! (for once smokey  :D)

Got your hand on your head then  :P


I do believe you are correct!! Maybe! Will investigate  ::)

I appreciate the points that if you time the services at lower speeds then you have recovery time built in. That's self evident. However, it contributes to the position whereby services are significantly slower than 30 years ago. You could get from Padd to BTM in 1hr 27min every hour during the day in 1978, and a commuter train did Padd to Chippenham in 59 minutes! Granted extra stops also contributes and the weight of 2+8 compared with the original 2+7.

Of the other former "inter-city" routes (ECML, WCML, MML, even XC), how many have suffered this degree of slowdown in that period? None. How many others deliberately time a core part of their route at less than maximum speed? I'm not aware of any. So what makes FGW different?        

Of the other former "inter-city" routes (ECML, WCML, MML, even XC), how many have suffered this degree of slowdown in that period? None. How many others deliberately time a core part of their route at less than maximum speed? I'm not aware of any. So what makes FGW different?        
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Maybe just maybe it's that FGW are desperate to get their preformance figures up and compatible to other operators.

I dont personally blame FGW for the recovery time. Trains often run late through Reading and also services starting before Bristol (Penzance, Plym, Paignton etc) are rarely on time, especially calling at shacks. Thus is means FGW pay less money to the government (don't get me started) as they already pay enough!

Don't be so sure. ECML has significantly slowed down in recent years, as has the MML partially (gained back time with introduction of their class 222 Meridian fleet - same with XC).

The WCML is only speeding up because of the WCML upgrade program.

Better tell that to the government in spain then whose aim is to have 10,000km (6,200 miles) of high-speed (nearly 220mph)track in Spain by 2020,meaning that 90% of the population will be no more than 30 miles from a station through which the train passes. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/02/spain.railtravel.
  Meanwhile on FGW its definately the case of back to the future.

It's also slower as everything now stops at Reading and a lot more trains stop at Didcot. I don't think any services miss Reading out now, even the Bristolian now stops there.

Personally I'd axe the Heathrow Express, double the frequency of Connect, and use the fast lines to provide an improved commuter service to Reading and Didcot. It might then be possible for some of the longer distance trains to skip these stops. This of course will never happen.

Removing buffet cars from trains not only means less seating but less standing room as well, with no buffets that passengers can prop up on. Also the H vestibule is now needed by staff for the PA and trolley storage as there is no buffet car, and hence some staff have banned passengers from standing there, because it now becomes the only place the staff can stand. The natural barrier between first and standard is also lost.

Just out of interest, does anyone remember when Paddington trains to and from Bristol ceased stopping at Slough? I can distinctly remember a colleague commuting Chippenham-Slough back in the 80s, but can't remember it dropping off the timetable. Was it a sudden cessation, or a gradual loss of service (a bit like how Didcot used to be a regular stop for almost all trains, then became the exception rather than the rule)