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Title: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2015, 17:02:41 From the Bath Chronicle (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Great-Western-prosecutes-13-people-travelling/story-27544139-detail/story.html)
Quote Train operator First Great Western has successfully prosecuted 13 people caught travelling without a valid train ticket. All of the people were caught by officials at Bath Spa Railway Station since the beginning of 2015. Bath Magistrates gave the majority of the people caught travelling without a valid train ticket a fine of ^400, though for some this was reduced if they entered a guilty plea to the charge. The magistrates also ordered each person to pay varying amounts of court costs, compensation and a surcharge. The people caught and prosecuted were; Jake Blackmore, 18 of Middlewood Close, was ordered to pay ^603.70 for not buying a train ticket for ^3.70 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on February 3. Andrew Carter, 40 of Cranbury Avenue, Southampton, was ordered to pay ^630.70 for not buying a train ticket for ^30.70 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on March 9. Charlotte Cox, 19 of Grebe Close, Waterlooville, was ordered to pay ^786.90 for not buying a train ticket for ^36.90 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on April 17. Elen Ekaloba, 18 of Chapel Allerton, Axbridge, was ordered to pay ^682.40 for not buying a train ticket for ^82.40 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on March 31. Benjamin Fairley, 24 of Arundell Close, Westbury, was ordered to pay ^611.60 for not buying a train ticket for ^11.60 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on January 6. Josh Gerrard, 18 or Sefton Road, Liverpool, was ordered to pay ^686.40 for buying a train ticket for ^84.60 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on February 14. Damien Hately, 30 of Newleaze, Trowbridge, was ordered to pay ^320.30 for travelling without a valid train ticket at Oldfield Park Railway Station on January 29. Charlotte McCarter, 46 of Oak Lane, Woking, was ordered to pay ^662 for not buying a train ticket for ^62 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on January 12. Craig Morrison, 22 of Balmoral Road, Keynsham, was ordered to pay ^647.20 for not buying a train ticket for ^3.60 to travel to Oldfield Park Railway Station on February 24 and for not buying a train ticket for ^3.70 to travel to Oldfield Park Railway Station on March 3. Natalie Routledge, 23 of Kinglsey Road, Chippenham, was ordered to pay ^615.50 for not buying a train ticket for ^15.50 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on March 19. Lena Smith, 25 of Winchester Road, Aldershot, was ordered to pay ^652.60 for not buying a train ticket for ^52.60 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on March 30. Robert Smith, 36 of Midford Road, Bath, was ordered to pay ^607.40 for not buying a train ticket for ^7.40 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on February 28. Ion-Romica Stoica, 25 of Bodicea Mews, Hounslow, was ordered to pay ^698.50 for not buying a train ticket for ^98.50 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on January 19 and for not leaving the station via the automatic ticket barrier. All of the accused were dealt with at Bath Magistrates' Court on July 15. Interesting age groups.... (Edit by FT, N! to remove ^) Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: IndustryInsider on August 06, 2015, 17:10:42 Just goes to prove that there is no such thing as a typical fare evader.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: chrisr_75 on August 06, 2015, 17:14:53 When it says 'so and so was ordered to pay', does that mean the sums detailed are paid to the TOC, or are they court fines and pass to the Treasury via the courts?
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2015, 17:23:27 I think that's the total payment - ticket cost, fine, costs, etc.
The TOC will only get compensated for its loss. The rest to the court service. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: chrisr_75 on August 06, 2015, 17:33:56 Thanks.
I was going to say that ^600 or so is rather in excess of what the actual loss was to the TOC, good that the rest passes to the treasury. I notice there was one fool who got caught twice...Some people just don't get the hint, eh?! Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Timmer on August 06, 2015, 17:37:35 Hopefully sends out a message to those who don't pay their way on trains. Sadly I don't think it will.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: John R on August 06, 2015, 21:05:14 Hopefully sends out a message to those who don't pay their way on trains. Sadly I don't think it will. Maybe a poster with those details put at each station would help get the message across. May have to change the names I suppose (to protect the guilty...), but should certainly make anyone thinking of avoiding a ^3.70 fare think twice.Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2015, 22:01:15 Posters with the real names of those found guilty of byelaw and RORA offences for ticketless travel are used by many train operators. I'm not aware of FGW using such posters.
The real names of those convicted can be used. No right to anonymity. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 06, 2015, 22:59:17 Hmm. ::)
As reported by the Bath Chronicle (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Great-Western-prosecutes-13-people-travelling/story-27544139-detail/story.html), it seems some passengers just can't win: Quote Josh Gerrard, 18 or Sefton Road, Liverpool, was ordered to pay ^686.40 for buying a train ticket for ^84.60 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on February 14. What did he actually do wrong, then? :o ::) ??? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on August 06, 2015, 23:15:58 Hmm. ::) Quote Josh Gerrard, 18 or Sefton Road, Liverpool, was ordered to pay ^686.40 for buying a train ticket for ^84.60 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on February 14. What did he actually do wrong, then? :o ::) ??? Stayed on to Trowbridge? ;) Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 06, 2015, 23:20:30 Would that have been picked up by staff at Bath Spa?
Quote All of the people were caught by officials at Bath Spa Railway Station since the beginning of 2015. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: chrisr_75 on August 07, 2015, 00:22:51 Hmm. ::) As reported by the Bath Chronicle (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Great-Western-prosecutes-13-people-travelling/story-27544139-detail/story.html), it seems some passengers just can't win: Quote Josh Gerrard, 18 or Sefton Road, Liverpool, was ordered to pay ^686.40 for buying a train ticket for ^84.60 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on February 14. What did he actually do wrong, then? :o ::) ??? That's a curious one, NR Enquiries suggests a single off peak fare from Liverpool Lime Street (I m making an assumption that's where the journey started) to Bath Spa is ^81.90, so I would be interested to find out what he did wrong and quite why it resulted in a conviction... Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: sprinterguard on August 07, 2015, 00:38:59 It's clearly a typo. ;D
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: plymothian on August 07, 2015, 00:41:27 The journalist forgot to type the word 'not'?
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 07, 2015, 00:43:51 It's clearly a typo. ;D The journalist forgot to type the word 'not'? Yes, that was my suspicion, too: journalists, eh? ::) :o ;D If that was the case, it's interesting that Mr Gerrard seems to have travelled all the way from Liverpool to Bath Spa without his apparent lack of a ticket being picked up previously, somewhere along the line ... :-X Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: chrisr_75 on August 07, 2015, 12:13:19 It's clearly a typo. ;D The journalist forgot to type the word 'not'? Yes, that was my suspicion, too: journalists, eh? ::) :o ;D If that was the case, it's interesting that Mr Gerrard seems to have travelled all the way from Liverpool to Bath Spa without his apparent lack of a ticket being picked up previously, somewhere along the line ... :-X Oops, I didn't pick up on the typo, but now you all mention it, it's so obvious! ;D It's quite easy to travel quite long distances without ticket checks. Depending which TM is on duty, FGW late evening services to S.Wales often have a ticket check done between Paddington & Reading, then nothing at all for the remainder of the journey. Certain TM's prefer to stand in the buffet chatting to the other staff than doing that aspect of their job...so I'm not really surprised someone could travel from Merseyside to Bath unchecked. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Steve Bray on August 07, 2015, 12:38:49 I'm assuming that this went to court, rather then the man being ordered to pay the amount on the spot?
Based on the fines that are reported in my local paper, the ^686 would have comprised ^400 fine (or so) + Court Costs + the fare Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 07, 2015, 22:45:49 I'm assuming that this went to court, rather then the man being ordered to pay the amount on the spot? Based on the fines that are reported in my local paper, the ^686 would have comprised ^400 fine (or so) + Court Costs + the fare Yes - as reported in the Bath Chronicle (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Great-Western-prosecutes-13-people-travelling/story-27544139-detail/story.html): Quote Bath Magistrates gave the majority of the people caught travelling without a valid train ticket a fine of ^400, though for some this was reduced if they entered a guilty plea to the charge. The magistrates also ordered each person to pay varying amounts of court costs, compensation and a surcharge. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Brucey on August 08, 2015, 13:05:04 Although there needs to be a penalty, does anyone feel the penalty is rather excessive compared to the actual fare evaded?
E.g. the highest penalty: "Charlotte Cox, 19 of Grebe Close, Waterlooville, was ordered to pay ^786.90 for not buying a train ticket for ^36.90 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on April 17." What would the penalty be for stealing a ^40 item from a shop? Far less than ^800 probably. Also, the fact she got from (presumably) Cosham to Bath without being checked for tickets is an indictment of how poor FGW's on-board revenue protection remains on this route. My travels on this route between 2007-2011 regularly had no ticket inspection. At other times, one could easily get away without showing a ticket as the guard simply walked past asking for "unchecked tickets only". Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Electric train on August 08, 2015, 13:55:22 Although there needs to be a penalty, does anyone feel the penalty is rather excessive compared to the actual fare evaded? E.g. the highest penalty: "Charlotte Cox, 19 of Grebe Close, Waterlooville, was ordered to pay ^786.90 for not buying a train ticket for ^36.90 to travel to Bath Spa Railway Station on April 17." What would the penalty be for stealing a ^40 item from a shop? Far less than ^800 probably. Also, the fact she got from (presumably) Cosham to Bath without being checked for tickets is an indictment of how poor FGW's on-board revenue protection remains on this route. My travels on this route between 2007-2011 regularly had no ticket inspection. At other times, one could easily get away without showing a ticket as the guard simply walked past asking for "unchecked tickets only". Would need to see the evidence presented, shoplifters do get heavy finds and even imprisonment Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: TaplowGreen on August 17, 2015, 15:42:28 Just to give another perspective on this - I travelled 1st class on the Cornish Riviera from Plymouth to Reading this morning and there wasn't a single ticket check throughout the entire journey.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: NickB on August 17, 2015, 19:24:57 Whilst not defending fare dodging in any shape or form the punishments appear very steep. I am going to qualify that statement very clearly by saying that they appear steep when compared to other magistrate court fines for offences that I would consider more severe such as physical violence or burglary/theft. Quite often in the local paper the prosecutions by FGW will appear alongside 'joe blogs was convicted of three counts of actual bodily harm and was ordered to pay ^25 victim compensation and a fine of ^100.'
Whilst fare evasion is far from a 'victimless crime' worse things happen out there. Do TOC's lobby hard for punishments? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Eliza on August 22, 2015, 10:46:32 Hi,
There is a website of case studies at Penman Sedgwick, Solicitors, of Watford, who represent clients accused of fair dodging: http://www.penmansedgwick.com/PracticeAreas/Criminal/FareEvasion/FareEvasionCases.aspx One case stood out for me: LONDON UNDERGROUND .v. P HAMMERSMITH MAGISTRATES COURT The Defendant was charged .............................. WITH travelling on the Railway without having paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment. 64 OFFENCES between the period of 4 March 2013 and 23 April 2013. A GUILTY PLEA was entered. MITIGATION PROVIDED SENTENCE: A CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE FOR 2 YEARS PROSECUTION COSTS ^130.00 COMPENSATION ^344.50 VICTIM SURCHARGE ^15 The costs add up to only ^489.50, although I suppose the solicitor's fees are on top of that. Contrast that with the draconian fine of ^603.70 meted out by Bath Magistrates' Court for a fare evasion of ^3.70. Would the defendant, in that instance, have first been issued with a cheaper Fixed Penalty Notice but chose to ignore it? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on August 22, 2015, 10:59:38 Firstly, quite possibly, & secondly, swpending on the number of journeys that the Bath case prosecuted for, train tickets are generally more expensive & thus the compensation will be higher. The TOC will also request full anytime single for each journey, regardless of time of day. Thus the extra ^100 would quite easily be reached if several journeys were involved
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on August 22, 2015, 11:21:32 Also in that LU -v- P case there was representation, mitigation and a guilty plea. All can contribute to a lessening of a sentence. Particularly the latter where there is almost always a percentage reduction as per the sentencing guidelines magistrates must follow.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: thetrout on August 22, 2015, 18:21:53 I can't help but think that some of those cases on the Penman Sedgwick website should never have escalated as far as they did.
I counted 3 cases that were the result of TVMs being out of order but the case was still brought before or Court or withdrawn at a very late stage. I also thought the case of the drunken man picking up a receipt instead of his ticket was amusing. Taking the wording on face value, an easy mistake to make and one I've done myself before now whilst fully sober. Whilst I don't condone using a failed TVM as an excuse for deliberate fare evasion... I'm not sure I like the idea of a "baseless allegation" (using that that term very loosely) being brought before court, causing considerable distress to a person who actually hasn't done anything wrong. (Again to reiterate I am taking the events on face value) Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 22, 2015, 22:03:59 9 of the 13 were under 30. I wonder if this is just because young people are more likely to fare-dodge, for various reasons, or if there was some 'suspect profiling' at work?
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Tim on September 17, 2015, 09:21:03 9 of the 13 were under 30. I wonder if this is just because young people are more likely to fare-dodge, for various reasons, or if there was some 'suspect profiling' at work? I suspect that some of this will be simply because the profile of dodgers matches the profile of passengers in general. The middle aged people were not caught because they were not on the train (they were in the cars committing traffic offenses) or if they were they were commuters on a season ticket. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 27, 2015, 19:35:01 Do TOC's lobby hard for punishments? Yes, and rightly so! Fare evasion cost the railways a substancial amount every year. Those who think it's alright to pass a ticket vending machine or ticket office without a valid ticket are committing an offence and the punishment should be just as serious as any other offence. There are various options open to all train operating companies (TOCs). They could either issue a Penalty Fare (if there is believed to be an honest mistake) or they could issue an MG11 which could result in a prosecution under railway bylaws or they could prosecute under the Regulation Of Railways ACT 1889, which would result in a criminal record as well as a fine and even a custodial sentence! I'd also like to mention that those who try and avoid providing contact details when being suspected of committing an offence and those who try and run away from RPOs can be arrested by either an RPO or a member of BTP. Thereare no excuses and no escape! Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 27, 2015, 21:44:29 Do TOC's lobby hard for punishments? Yes, and rightly so! Fare evasion cost the railways a substancial amount every year. Agreed - and indeed it's not only the money that's concern - it's that the money and the numbers can make a difference in the level of future services ... however ... Quote Those who think it's alright to pass a ticket vending machine or ticket office without a valid ticket are committing an offence and the punishment should be just as serious as any other offence. ... that is, in my understanding, a simplification of the situation or things have changed. I understood, for example, that it's all right to pass a TVM that only accepts credit cards if you're paying with cash on the train, and that if you pass by a ticket office you can only be committing an offence if it's open. Sorry to be a bit of a pedant, but as written I believe your statement says that people are guilty of an offence in some circumstance when they're not, and I think that's a dangerous thing for someone who's hoping to become an RPO to assume. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 27, 2015, 22:12:28 ... that is, in my understanding, a simplification of the situation or things have changed. I understood, for example, that it's all right to pass a TVM that only accepts credit cards if you're paying with cash on the train, and that if you pass by a ticket office you can only be committing an offence if it's open. Sorry to be a bit of a pedant, but as written I believe your statement says that people are guilty of an offence in some circumstance when they're not, and I think that's a dangerous thing for someone who's hoping to become an RPO to assume. Good Evening Grahame. Most major stations do accept cash and card payments, cash and cards can also be used at ticket offices. If you wish to pay with your card at a cash only machine, there may be cash machines at or close by the station. However don't venture any further into the station to find one, as doing so would be passing an opportunity to pay. You can find out more about station facilities at www.nationalrail.co.uk. I hope you find this helpful. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ellendune on September 27, 2015, 22:18:19 Good Evening Grahame. Most major stations do accept cash and card payments, cash and cards can also be used at ticket offices. If you wish to pay with your card at a cash only machine, there may be cash machines at or close by the station. However don't venture any further into the station to find one, as doing so would be passing an opportunity to pay. You can find out more about station facilities at www.nationalrail.co.uk. I hope you find this helpful. This seems to assume that everyone joins a train at a major station which is far from the situation. There is no ticket office at Melksham for example and the ticket machine only accepts cards not cash. The ticket office at say Nailsea & Backwell or Thatcham are only part time and so are often closed. Forgive me but your world does seem to be very black and white. Most of us live in a world where things are not so clear and uncomplicated. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 27, 2015, 22:31:46 Of course there are non-major stations Ellen, and most of those do have some for of ticket purchasing facilities of permit to travel machines. If the ticket office is closed and there are NO ticket vending machines or permit to travel machines at the station where customers are travelling from, then they may buy their ticket at the first opportunity on-board the train. However, if a passenger fails to do this and passes the ticket office at the station on arriving at their destination, this could result in a RORA prosecution as it is basically a slam-dunk opportunity. You can check the methods of payment at the origin station before hand with customer services if you are travelling with GWR by calling 0345 7000 125.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: John R on September 27, 2015, 22:37:53 Do TOC's lobby hard for punishments? Secondly, when you say the punishment should be just as serious as any other offence, again, an accurate interpretation of those words means you think the punishment should be as serious as murder. Pedantic maybe, but if you are to be an RPO, I suggest you do need to be a little careful, else you could very soon find yourself bringing your employer into a media related situation which they would prefer not to be. Your confusion that some machines are cash only (when indeed the reverse is true - many are card only) demonstrates that you don't yet have a good grasp of some of the basics of your job. And I really do worry that you don't have the right attitude that GWR is looking for in a prospective RPO. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: John R on September 27, 2015, 22:45:34 Of course there are non-major stations Ellen, and most of those do have some for of ticket purchasing facilities of permit to travel machines. If the ticket office is closed and there are NO ticket vending machines or permit to travel machines at the station where customers are travelling from, then they may buy their ticket at the first opportunity on-board the train. However, if a passenger fails to do this and passes the ticket office at the station on arriving at their destination, this could result in a RORA prosecution as it is basically a slam-dunk opportunity. You can check the methods of payment at the origin station before hand with customer services if you are travelling with GWR by calling 0345 7000 125. Not true - if there is a TVM machine which only accepts cards then you are entitled to buy on board. As to then adding the scenario that someone passes the ticket office at the arrival station, no-one has made any comment about this before, so you're just making this up as you go along to prove why someone would be fare dodging. Finally, how many passengers do you expect to phone up before making a journey? More are likely to check online - the details for NLS on National Rail do say there is a TVM, but don't specify that it is card only, so doesn't give the correct information pertinent to this discussion. How would you deal with someone in that situation? (It also says trolleys are available - really?) Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 27, 2015, 22:46:23 ... that is, in my understanding, a simplification of the situation or things have changed. I understood, for example, that it's all right to pass a TVM that only accepts credit cards if you're paying with cash on the train, and that if you pass by a ticket office you can only be committing an offence if it's open. Sorry to be a bit of a pedant, but as written I believe your statement says that people are guilty of an offence in some circumstance when they're not, and I think that's a dangerous thing for someone who's hoping to become an RPO to assume. Good Evening Grahame. Most major stations do accept cash and card payments, cash and cards can also be used at ticket offices. If you wish to pay with your card at a cash only machine, there may be cash machines at or close by the station. However don't venture any further into the station to find one, as doing so would be passing an opportunity to pay. You can find out more about station facilities at www.nationalrail.co.uk. I hope you find this helpful. I find it answers a different question to the one I asked you ... You asserted that "Those who think it's alright to pass a ticket vending machine or ticket office without a valid ticket are committing an offence" and I suggested that's not always the case, asking you about TVMs which don't accept cash, and closed ticket offices. If it is indeed an offence to pass a TVM that only accepts cards, then pay on the train in cash, please tell me where this rule is written down. If it is not an offence, then please amend your statement to tell the full story rather than signalling guilt in an innocent situation. It's a serious issue as we've just had a TVM installed at our local station - cards only - and I wasn't aware that it's now an offence to get on the train and buy a ticket with cash from the train manager - something I had intended to do tomorrow as I travel from Melksham to Chippenham. If I can't buy with cash any more, perhaps I should take the bus, which is slower but does accept cash. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 27, 2015, 22:56:36 As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: paul7575 on September 27, 2015, 23:02:54 ...If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence. It isn't yet compulsory to carry both cards and cash in this country. If you only have the opposite to what the machine accepts it cannot be an opportunity to pay.Paul Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 27, 2015, 23:04:08 As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence. So it is no longer allowable to pay cash to travel by train from Melksham then? Ouch! Please quote your references as this is something we need to take up with GWR officially if you're right (which I don't think you are). Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ellendune on September 27, 2015, 23:06:53 As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence. Grahame. It looks like you better take the bus tomorrow - we have obviously been reading the National Conditions of Carriage wrongly along with all those RPOs and TMs that have been allowing you and others to pay cash on the train. I think we should start a petition to GWR to get the conditions changed to where everyone else had assumed they were. On the other had rather than Penzance-Paddington being the only one in step, perhaps he is the only one out of step. As Cromwell once said in a letter to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 27, 2015, 23:20:31 It is possible that TMs may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier!
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ellendune on September 27, 2015, 23:23:43 It is possible that TMs may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier! If you think you are right please will you provide the reference so that it can be taken up with GWR. Alternatively could someone from GWR who posts here please give us the official line. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on September 27, 2015, 23:30:41 It is possible that TMs may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier! Possibly one of the stupidest posts ever made on this forum. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 27, 2015, 23:35:54 It is possible that TMs may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier! I would be disinclined to buy a season ticket for tomorrow's journey. It's a one off journey; I'm going to meet my MP (to talk about making it easier for people to use trains and buses!), and people would talk if I did that so frequently as to be able to justify a season :D The idea of going to a bank on the way to the station ... I suppose I could do so if travelling in the middle of the day, and in best health. At present that would mean catching the bus, which does go past the bank ... now - do I ask the bus driver to wait while I nip in and deposit, or drop back to the following hourly bus? I really don't want to rely on discression - I would like to get this sorted out. With discretion, someone, some day, is going to get the rule book thrown at them - so - PLEASE - quote your sources. I think you're wrong. Which rule / bylaw is the one that I've been allowed to break, or perhaps we should elevate this to your GWR trainer / manager for clarification? Please let me know who that would be by personal message. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 27, 2015, 23:48:40 Section 5 of ROR Act 1889 makes this quite clear. It states that "(1)
Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started". If you was in a shop which only accepted card payment, would you just take the product without paying? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 00:26:22 Section 5 of ROR Act 1889 makes this quite clear. It states that "(1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started". I'm quite happy (and want) to pay when asked, and train managers usually come around to check tickets and collect fares anyway. Not sure how this says I can't get onto a train and pay in cash if there's no cash facility at the station - in fact it says nothing about having to buy from a TVM or booking office at all - just that you need to buy a ticket or produce one when asked. Quote If you was in a shop which only accepted card payment, would you just take the product without paying? No - but there's no suggestion of travelling without paying, so I'm not sure of your point. As there's some doubt (though your position does appear to be the minority one, Padddington-Penzance) I thought I would get the official GWR view: (http://www.wellho.net/pix/cashpay.jpg) As that doesn't appear to back you up, please do send me details of your reporting channel in GWR (as previously requested) so that we can clarify this for everyone. A considerable proportion of fares at Melksham are paid on the train in cash, and we need to remove any seed of doubt (in your mind as a potential RPO) as to whether this is still allowed. I want to nip in the bud any danger of customers who are following the rules as tweeted and generally understood finding something different one day, to the extent they are put off using the train again. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 28, 2015, 00:32:19 It seems that it is allowed in these circumstances. I do apologise. However, if a TVM accepts cash and cards, you do need to buy a ticket or have a pre-bought ticket before passing beyond it.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on September 28, 2015, 03:59:17 As I stated earlier, if there is a closed ticket office, and no TVMs or Permit To Travel machines, then customers can buy their ticket on-board the train. And if that train is DOO and the destination only has a TVM or nothing at all? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 28, 2015, 06:53:40 Quote If the ticket machine only accepts one method of payment i.e. card and if you wish to pay with cash, then it is still an opportunity to pay and passing it without a valid ticket is an offence. And what if you're a child, unless the laws have changed I didn't think it was possible to have a debit/credit card until 16/18. Where are they suppose to get a ticket from if they only have cash on them? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Brucey on September 28, 2015, 07:02:00 It seems that it is allowed in these circumstances. I do apologise. However, if a TVM accepts cash and cards, you do need to buy a ticket or have a pre-bought ticket before passing beyond it. How about if I want to pay with a Rail Travel Voucher or Rail Warrant, what should I do then?Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Richard Fairhurst on September 28, 2015, 07:10:52 Penzance-Paddington, you have previously posted in a way that strongly suggests you are posting here at least semi-officially as a representative of GWR:
Quote We are also here to provide customer service and are representatives of the company. I look forward to welcoming you on one of my services soon. Frankly, I smell bullsh*t. Either you are an adolescent trainspotter pretending to be someone you're not (shades of 'maryfgw'), or you are greatly overreaching your competence by providing bogus advice to people who, it's clear, know a whole bunch more than you do. GWR has a lot of really dedicated, skilled on-train staff and it slightly horrifies me to think that their dedication is being tarred on here by your clumsy postings. Could one of the real GWR employees who read this forum perhaps quietly make enquiries and find out if any alleged trainees are in fact posting here? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 07:55:19 He's digging himself a big hole. If he's a trainee, these posts are not going to impress his employer. I suspect however, he's still studying (see very early posts where he asks us questions), and is yet to pass/join.
Penzance-Paddington...ARE you yet an actual GWR employee? Coz you're not giving correct information Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 08:03:30 It seems that it is allowed in these circumstances. I do apologise. Thank you. I do still worry. This has taken considerable discussion to resolve in the theoretic environment of the forum, and I wonder what the outcome would have been had I or someone else joined a train you were revenue protecting "in these circumstances" - or with a rail warrant or vouchers, or indeed other circumstances which remain open in this thread. I share other's concerns at the approach and knowledge level you demonstrate (but then these things can be taught/learned); in combination with the staff social media guidelines, these matters suggest a radical change in direction for GWR flagged in a very surprising way, or that something's not as we have been told. For that reason, I urge you to answer my previous requests for further information on your reportage channel (in a personal message or email is fine) which have previously gone unanswered. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: PhilWakely on September 28, 2015, 08:39:52 Here's an interesting scenario that my daughter has apparently, in the last few minutes, been caught up in............
Having been off work for a number of years due to a medical episode, she has at long last been past fit to work and got herself a part-time job. This requires her to catch the busiest train of the day, 0813 PIN-EXC. The TM usually plants himself in the rear cab and stays there, except for door and platform duties - leaving the gateline staff at EXC to take any unpaid fares. This morning, daughter goes to the TVM at PIN, to find a 'exact fare only, no card payments' message on the screen. Fine, you say, except her fare with a railcard is ^1.85 - and the TVM is rejecting all coins with a lower than 10p demomination. It is one of the sensible machines that returns all coins if you have paid too much (eg 2x^1 in this scenario), rather than issue a ^1.85 ticket and not give change! So, she is unable to buy her ticket from a 'working' TVM and unable to see the TM. There must have been another TVM further down the line that was not working as the queue at the gateline was fairly long. When it was her turn to speak to the person on the gate, he was adamant her railcard (a Disabled Persons one) was not valid on that train and that she had ample opportunity to pay the full ^2.80 fare, so wanted to issue a penalty fare. She got quite worried by this attitude (and given her medical condition, that was not surprising), but it was only when a colleague of the member of staff pointed out that the Disabled Persons Railcard WAS valid that she was allowed through having paid her ^1.85 Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 08:59:22 There must have been another TVM further down the line that was not working as the queue at the gateline was fairly long. from Journey check: Quote Digby & Sowton: Ticket Vending Machine problem The ticket vending machines are out of order at Digby & Sowton station. Additional Information Please purchase tickets at the ticket office or at the first available opportunity to do so where no other means of purchasing tickets is available at the station. I am 110% in favour robust revenue collection where people are deliberately avoiding the opportunity to pay. But that should not come at a price of causing concern / upset / strong-challenging people who are going about their travel lawfully. Rail industry rules are complex and hard to understand - even for staff and wannabe staff, it seems. But those are the rules the industry has come up with, and they really should have their own training and systems in order, rather that getting it wrong and then having it corrected later. If the answer is "but the rules are too complex and there are bound to be mistakes", then perhaps the rules or the training should be questioned, and not the passenger - especially the passenger who's actually following the rules! We need to be careful in discussing individual cases - however, I hope your daughter is not put off travel by train ... Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 09:00:17 Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM in these circumstsnces to protect oneself
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: BandHcommuter on September 28, 2015, 09:23:47 Many GWR train managers willingly sell me tickets on the train, even when I've boarded at a station where the ticket office is open. In fact some positively encourage it. Are they wrong to do this? Should they be telling me that I am at risk of prosecution?
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 09:27:36 Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM in these circumstsnces to protect oneself Yes, but why should you have to?? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on September 28, 2015, 10:05:13 Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM in these circumstsnces to protect oneself Yes, but why should you have to?? Because there are people like Penzance-Paddington working for GWR. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: PhilWakely on September 28, 2015, 10:07:15 Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM in these circumstsnces to protect oneself How do you take a photo of the machine rejecting all of certain coins? In the example this morning, 'exact fare only in cash', fare (sic) enough and you could happily pay multiples of 10p, for a fare of ^2.80, but impossible to pay with coins of lower denominations to cover a fare of ^1.85. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Oxonhutch on September 28, 2015, 10:14:42 Rail industry rules are complex and hard to understand - even for staff and wannabe staff, it seems. But those are the rules the industry has come up with, and they really should have their own training and systems in order, rather that getting it wrong and then having it corrected later. If the answer is "but the rules are too complex and there are bound to be mistakes", then perhaps the rules or the training should be questioned, and not the passenger - especially the passenger who's actually following the rules! I have always followed the maxim of rules being for the guidance of wise men - and the adherence of fools. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 11:08:37 Take a pic of the 'exact fare only' message
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 28, 2015, 13:04:52 Here's an interesting scenario that my daughter has apparently, in the last few minutes, been caught up in............ Having been off work for a number of years due to a medical episode, she has at long last been past fit to work and got herself a part-time job. This requires her to catch the busiest train of the day, 0813 PIN-EXC. The TM usually plants himself in the rear cab and stays there, except for door and platform duties - leaving the gateline staff at EXC to take any unpaid fares. This morning, daughter goes to the TVM at PIN, to find a 'exact fare only, no card payments' message on the screen. Fine, you say, except her fare with a railcard is ^1.85 - and the TVM is rejecting all coins with a lower than 10p demomination. It is one of the sensible machines that returns all coins if you have paid too much (eg 2x^1 in this scenario), rather than issue a ^1.85 ticket and not give change! So, she is unable to buy her ticket from a 'working' TVM and unable to see the TM. There must have been another TVM further down the line that was not working as the queue at the gateline was fairly long. When it was her turn to speak to the person on the gate, he was adamant her railcard (a Disabled Persons one) was not valid on that train and that she had ample opportunity to pay the full ^2.80 fare, so wanted to issue a penalty fare. She got quite worried by this attitude (and given her medical condition, that was not surprising), but it was only when a colleague of the member of staff pointed out that the Disabled Persons Railcard WAS valid that she was allowed through having paid her ^1.85 If a passenger has a Disabled Person's Railcard, then they may purchase their ticket from the on-board team (ONLY IF THEIR DISABILIY PREVENTS THEM FROM USING THE STATION TICKET FACILITIES - DOES YOUR DAUGHTER HAVE MOBILITY ISSUES/ISSUES WITH STANDING OR ANY LEARNING DIFFICULTIES?). May I ask how long the journey your daughter made was? Also, which route was it on? Train Managers frequently walk through the train to check tickets/provide customer service. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 28, 2015, 13:16:12 EDIT: I've just realised she was travelling from Pinhoe to Exeter Central. There are no stops in between and this journey does take around 5 minutes. What time of day was she travelling? If it was an off-peak time then the TM would be likely to have been able to pass through all of the train.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on September 28, 2015, 13:35:38 If a passenger has a Disabled Person's Railcard, then they may purchase their ticket from the on-board team (ONLY IF THEIR DISABILIY PREVENTS THEM FROM USING THE STATION TICKET FACILITIES - DOES YOUR DAUGHTER HAVE MOBILITY ISSUES/ISSUES WITH STANDING OR ANY LEARNING DIFFICULTIES?). May I ask how long the journey your daughter made was? Also, which route was it on? Train Managers frequently walk through the train to check tickets/provide customer service. May I suggest you answer some questions about your bona fides before asking personal questions of forum members. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: PhilWakely on September 28, 2015, 13:55:42 If a passenger has a Disabled Person's Railcard, then they may purchase their ticket from the on-board team (ONLY IF THEIR DISABILIY PREVENTS THEM FROM USING THE STATION TICKET FACILITIES - DOES YOUR DAUGHTER HAVE MOBILITY ISSUES/ISSUES WITH STANDING OR ANY LEARNING DIFFICULTIES?). May I ask how long the journey your daughter made was? Also, which route was it on? Train Managers frequently walk through the train to check tickets/provide customer service. EDIT: I've just realised she was travelling from Pinhoe to Exeter Central. There are no stops in between and this journey does take around 5 minutes. What time of day was she travelling? If it was an off-peak time then the TM would be likely to have been able to pass through all of the train. I am not prepared to discuss my daughter's circumstances here, suffice to say that she legally carries a Disabled Persons Railcard. I also note that following your first response, you apparently took your time to read my post again. However, you still failed to pick out the following two sentences.... This requires her to catch the busiest train of the day, 0813 PIN-EXC. The TM usually plants himself in the rear cab and stays there, except for door and platform duties - leaving the gateline staff at EXC to take any unpaid fares. Even if she tried, she would not have found the TM in the 5 minutes travel time she had. At no point did my daughter attempt to defraud the train company as she attempted to pay her fare at every possible opportunity. I should point out that in a subsequent 'phone call from my daughter, she told me that she did receive an apology from the member of gateline staff in question. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 28, 2015, 14:02:59 I only asked about the nature of your daughter's disability as disabled railcard holders are only allowed to buy on board if their disability prevents them from using the station ticket facilities. 08:13 would be a peak time so I will accept that the TM may not have passed your daughter. It sounds as though after careful consideration, the gateline staff did the correct thing apologising to your daughter. However you have to understand that many people a day make similar excuses for not having a ticket and these cases need to be checked thoroughly before an RPO makes a decision on their course of action.
Penzance-Paddington Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Brucey on September 28, 2015, 14:22:05 EDIT: I've just realised she was travelling from Pinhoe to Exeter Central. There are no stops in between and this journey does take around 5 minutes. What time of day was she travelling? If it was an off-peak time then the TM would be likely to have been able to pass through all of the train. Do you actually travel by train? If so, how often do you ever see the TM? Possibly once per journey. Rarely once per stop. I made an 8hr journey last week on four trains and did not see a single member of staff on any of those services. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 15:05:13 God, I hope GWR management read this thread , coz I know for a fact that you are NOT exhibiting the right attitude they look for ehen employing staff.
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Penzance-Paddington on September 28, 2015, 15:18:54 God, I hope GWR management read this thread , coz I know for a fact that you are NOT exhibiting the right attitude they look for ehen employing staff. What, a great attitude towards customer service and the ability to follow procedures thoroughly? Does an RPO's authority and power scare your or something? Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 15:25:35 You sre joking, right?!
Inflexibility in dealing with customers. And you are NOT displaying good customer service whatsoever! Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 15:30:04 We need to be careful in discussing individual cases - however, .... ... however ... that suggestion has not stopped Penzance-Paddington asking the most personal of questions, while ignoring requests for sufficient information about him / her to square his suggestions with the rules and with GWR policy and reporting structure. I'm about to put a temporary posting block on Penzance-Paddington. This is an extreme action, but there's a concern in my mind that his/ her posts may contravene the forum agreement he/she agreed with on signup - I have made my concern bold: Quote You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or ... The block will be removed if an when the moderator's concerns along these lines have been answered - and the starting point for that will be in Penzance-Paddington's reply to my earlier queries to him / her, which I await. I can be read by the email address / link at the bottom of every page - and that applies to blocked members too. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 15:47:08 OK ... a little more from me.
Normally, I believe what people tell me - most people are truthful most of the time - and when a user signs up saying "I am applying for a job with ..." or "I am going to be trained by ...", it's probably gonna be correct. On some occasions, people stretch the truth and - very rarely - people will completely fabricate a story. And having started off with a trust, enough seeds of doubts can be sewn to make one wonder. That's the case here - I don't know what the situation is, and I've asked for clarification / details to let me check. And the Penzance-Paddington account is temporarily locked from posting while we check. One of the reasons that I'm particularly concerned in this case is that the revenue protection staff I know are highly professional, typically very accurate in the work they do, and understanding and accommodating in the way they deal with situations before it's proven beyond reasonable doubt that there was deliberate attempt to avoid payment. I cannot say the same for some posts on this and other threads, which seem to assume that day-to-day passengers have a doctorate in rail law, and that any doing the wrong thing in a new circumstance is intentional deceipt, where at the same time Penzance-Paddington has admitted a mistake or two, which I presume we're not to treat as deliberately misleading. And this approach either signals a new policy / direction from GWR (in my view pretty unlikely - especially via a junior recruit on a forum) or postings which aren't right and bring the existing RPO team - who have a difficult job to do - into disrepute. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 16:39:54 He's read/studied the 'bible', but not been through any staff-soecific training, is my bet....and basically trying to show off here. Remember the first question he asked, and when offered our advice, came back spouting the bible at us parrot-fashion. So he was testing us, rather than requesting help/advice
He's an amateur thinking he's a pro, without the staff training Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: Timmer on September 28, 2015, 16:59:01 I should point out that in a subsequent 'phone call from my daughter, she told me that she did receive an apology from the member of gateline staff in question. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: TonyK on September 28, 2015, 17:23:03 Posters with the real names of those found guilty of byelaw and RORA offences for ticketless travel are used by many train operators. I'm not aware of FGW using such posters. The real names of those convicted can be used. No right to anonymity. Already in the public domain by way of having been in open court. It isn't libelous - the only ground that could fit is imputation of a criminal offence, and as there has been a conviction, that makes it fair comment. Would need to see the evidence presented, shoplifters do get heavy fines and even imprisonment A lot, though by no means all of, apprehended shoplifters have no money, and also have issues of addiction or mental health. I'm not being the bleeding heart neo-liberal in pointing that out, just noting that a financial penalty in such cases is often pointless. When a defendant is already having deductions made from their benefits of ^5.00 per week for fines, any new fines will simply extend the period of that deduction, so having little immediate impact. Fare dodging, as was pointed out earlier, can bridge the socio-economic divide in a way that would make Jeremy Corbyn green with envy (pun intended if you spotted it), although he may regard rail fares themselves as either a regressive tax or an elitist plot. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 28, 2015, 17:30:01 FT,n - can you sort you quoting out please?
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 28, 2015, 17:39:11 He's ... is my bet....and basically ... Gentlemen, as I've suspended the posting rights of a member pending clarification of conformance to the spirit of the forum agreement, I would be grateful if you too could desist from guessing at the detail of how that clarification will pan out. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: TonyK on September 28, 2015, 17:46:44 FT,n - can you sort you quoting out please? Apologies - I had been correcting the "A^" things that appeared because of font issues (I assume). I had hit the quote button by mistake a few times. I've deleted all the orphan quotations, so no-one will know what we are on about. I'm fed up with doing it, and shall settle for a few "A^"s. To help stop further proliferation, please immediately modify any post containing a quote containing a ^ sign, so as not to upset any borderline OCD sufferers. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: TonyK on September 28, 2015, 17:57:47 Always take a photo with your mobile of the message on the TVM in these circumstsnces to protect oneself Yes, but why should you have to?? I'm not sure what protection that would add, given that 1) Journey Check was aware of the issue 2) Staff at EXC would quickly become aware also Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: ChrisB on September 29, 2015, 08:30:17 If you remember, the RPI initially refused to believe the customer & wanted to charge a penalty fare. Immediate production of said photo might have focussed the mind a tad faster
Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 29, 2015, 21:10:50 I came across a piece headed "The ideal behaviours we want ur customers to see" in the last 10 day.
Integrity - Greet them with a smile and a warm welcome to XXX. Show them you're pround to be part of XXX Personalisation - Be friendly and let your presonalisty shine. Always make eye contact. Expectations - Make every customer reaction a positive one that leaves a great impression of XXX Time and Effort - Some customers need a little extra help - so keep an eye out and lend a hand Resolution - Give customers solutions and advise when presented with a problem Empathy - Treat them as individuals and show that you care Above all be yourself, be friendly and let your personality shine. Become a history maker today. Significant doubt, and considerable concern, has been expressed to the moderator team and openly on the forum about the posts of Penzance-Paddington. A lack of answers to requests for clarifcation lead me to temporarily block the account pending more information to. Whilst I can now report that I have heard from the member, I'm afraid I also have to report that he/she hasn't been able to give me further information (e.g. an @gwr.com address) where I can simply check that the poster really is - as claimed - an RPI trainee. "I don't feel as though I can disclose any more information to you. Revenue Protection is a robust department that operates around strict policies and procedures." Which leaves us in a rather awkward position. Now ... one of the moderator team writes "I would rather he gets things wrong here, where knowledgable members can correct him, instead of telling a pack of lies to the travelling public." And I'm very much aware that one of our strengths is in carrying a wide church of opinion, even if we don't always agree. Futher I look at the "mantra" at the top and think "that ain't bad" - we should follow that philosophy. For example, that might might providing a little extra help for this newcomer to the GWR team. So - having aired my concerns, I'm going to remove the temporary block that's been in place. I'm going to ask Penzance-Paddington to adhere to the forum agrement in a way that can't be doubted, and I'm going to ask him / her to follow the philosophy outlined in the piece at the top of this article. After all - that's part of his/her job; for "XXX" read "GWR", and the text comes from the widely circulated staff briefing. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on September 29, 2015, 21:51:20 He's going to have to a lot more convincing to get me to believe he's a soon to be GWR RPI.
I'm sure bona fides can be provided without personal identification being given or company social media policies being breached. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 29, 2015, 22:11:49 He's going to have to a lot more convincing to get me to believe he's a soon to be GWR RPI. I'm sure bona fides can be provided without personal identification being given or company social media policies being breached. The questions, discussions and help provided by members are interesting, so the decision taken is actually the same one whichever way it turns out. I agree there is a huge convenience in not answering requests for bona fides if such bona fides don't actually exist. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: John R on September 29, 2015, 23:07:16 There was another interesting scenario at NLS station yesterday, arriving for the 0746 to Paddington. There are 2 TVMs and a ticket office. Both TVM's were out of action, so the queue at the ticket office, instead of being the usual 3 or 4, was around 15 people. I'd expect at least a 15 minute wait to buy a ticket.
So what to do? Technically one would be in breach to board the train as the TO was open, and thus potentially subject to a PF. But there comes a point when it is unreasonable to expect passengers to wait and miss their train, when only one third of the normal ticket provision is available. It wasn't realistic to ask the guy in the TO whether it was OK to board due to the layout of the waiting shelter/office. So I boarded the train. Fortunately I have a season, so the question did not arise for me. But for around 15 people it would have done, and I wonder how they were supposed to know whether or not they ran the risk of a Penalty Fare and what discretion would have been shown had an RPO been on board. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on September 29, 2015, 23:27:13 Oftentimes when TVMs are out of order, messages are sent out on internal systems to staff telling them where the fault is and to use discretion toward any passengers from that station. Allowing buy on board and at gatelines typically.
That of course presumes the fault has been conmunicated, the message has been sent out, and individual staff have read said message. For Nailsea & Backwell yesterday, no such message was generated. Which either means the fault wasn't communicated or GWR decided the staff member in the shed with Avantix was adequate for the morning peak. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on September 30, 2015, 05:36:37 There are 5 minute connection times at most stations, with 7, 8, 10 and 15 at others. It would strike me as entirely reasonable that if you walk into the ticket dispensing area at the start of your journey with that much time but are unable to purchase a ticket (due to there being too many people ahead of you) that this should NOT be considered to be an opportunity to purchase a ticket that you have bypassed. Plainly, it was NOT such an opportunity.
Should you choose to use that 5 minutes or more to visit the loo, the buffet, the literature rack, or hug your girlfriend / boyfriend a long and lingering "goodbye", then it would be fair to say that you have missed the opportunity. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: TonyK on September 30, 2015, 20:45:18 Should you choose to use that 5 minutes or more to visit the loo, the buffet, the literature rack, or hug your girlfriend / boyfriend a long and lingering "goodbye", then it would be fair to say that you have missed the opportunity. I shall bear that in mind when I next hug my girlfriend / boyfriend goodbye at NLS. (Not a word to Mrs FT, N! please) Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: JayMac on October 01, 2015, 00:21:56 I shall bear that in mind when I next hug my girlfriend / boyfriend goodbye at NLS. It's CfN isn't it? Don't worry I'll not tell anyone. :P ;) ;D Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: TonyK on October 01, 2015, 17:35:19 I shall bear that in mind when I next hug my girlfriend / boyfriend goodbye at NLS. It's CfN isn't it? Don't worry I'll not tell anyone. :P ;) ;D You might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment... Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: broadgage on October 01, 2015, 23:31:55 It is possible that TMs may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier! Totally unreasonable in my view. One might not posses a card, AFAIK there is no legal requirement to have one. The bank might not be open. And from my experience of banks the payment in cash can take several days to clear. A season ticket is not the answer for a single journey, and still has to be purchased anyway. Title: Re: First Great Western prosecutes 13 people for travelling without train tickets Post by: grahame on October 02, 2015, 00:13:17 It is possible that TMs may have used some discretion in Grahame's cases. May I ask Grahame, do you pass any banks on the way to Melksham station? If so, you could always transfer the money you was going to pay with into your bank and then use your card to pay. Alternatively, you could buy a season ticket - it may make your journeys easier! Totally unreasonable in my view. One might not posses a card, AFAIK there is no legal requirement to have one. The bank might not be open. And from my experience of banks the payment in cash can take several days to clear. A season ticket is not the answer for a single journey, and still has to be purchased anyway. Hi - I think we concluded in a follow up that if I wanted to buy a ticket for cash, and was joining at a station which only offered card payments at a machine, I can do so without the need for discression and pay the train manager. Which was a huge relief in that a lot of local journeys from Melksham (to Chippenham and Trowbridge) are cash. What's really useful is that a lot of tickets can and will now be bought by card, allowing much quicker processing on the train and giving the manager time to reach everyone by the next station. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |