Great Western Coffee Shop

Hi Graham
Not exactly "your patch" but I thought you would want to know.

We promised to let you know as soon as we had news on the new long distance trains for the South West

I am therefore delighted to confirm that both the Department for Transport and First Great Western have now signed the agreements needed to bring the new trains to the South West.

An official announcement will be made this morning  in Exeter by Claire Perry, Under Secretary of State for Transport.

I thought it might help to recap on some of the detail. The new trains will replace the 40-year-old High Speed Trains (HSTs) currently serving Penzance to Paddington and will be made up of seven nine-car and 22 five-car units. The five-car units can be coupled together to provide ten car trains.

They will all be bi-modes, able to run as electric trains under the wires as far as Newbury and then on diesel power to Cornwall, and will mean a 24% increase in seats for customers once they are all in service in 2018, creating more than 1,000 additional seats at peak times across the route every day.

As bi-modes they are future proofed against any further extension of electrification to the South West, as they can operate in electric mode as far as the limit of the electrified network.

They are similar to the new Super Express Trains that will run to Bristol and South Wales, but have been specially modified for Devon and Cornwall and will utilise higher engine operating power to cope with the track gradients and will have larger fuel tanks to operate the longer distances on diesel power through to Penzance.

This and the use of automatic sliding doors, rather than slam doors, will help speed up typical journey times from London by up to 5 minutes (to Exeter), up to 6 minutes (Plymouth) and up to 14 minutes (Penzance).

First has already completed the procurement of the new trains, selecting Hitachi Rail Europe as the supplier. The ^360 million fleet will be financed by Eversholt Rail and leased to First Great Western.

We are really excited to be delivering the new trains and are grateful to all our partners and stakeholders for their help. We know how important it is to improve connectivity and capacity for business and for leisure travellers on this key route and it is great to now have the confirmation that we can go ahead with our plans.

Best wishes

Ministers have given the go ahead for a new ^360 million fleet of long distance trains for the South West, to be introduced to routes between Cornwall and the capital by 2018.

The 29 state of the art Hitachi trains will improve journey time and increase capacity by 24% ^ creating more than 1,000 additional peak-time seats.

They will also be capable of operating on both non-electric and electric routes, and will cut the average travelling time between Penzance and London cut by 14 minutes.

Rail minister Claire Perry visited Exeter to mark the announcement today. She said the new trains will make ^a real difference to the millions of commuters, business travellers and tourists who use this route every year^.

^This industry initiative goes hand-in-hand with the work this Government is doing to reverse decades of underinvestment in transport infrastructure in regions like the South West,^ she said.

Technically speaking not the SET, but close enough for this thread. (Hopefully!) The South West bimode fleet 'o doom gets the go ahead:

Western Morning News (http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Rail-ministers-announce-360-million-train-fleet/story-27514726-detail/story.html)


Huzzzah?

Admin Note: Edited to give copyright correctly then merged with new topic

The Department for Transport have issued a news release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-fleet-of-trains-to-bring-better-journeys-to-the-south-west

The deal will allow First Great Western to buy 29 new long distance trains.

Mary Kenny, Chief Executive Officer of Eversholt Rail Group, which will finance the fleet and lease it to First Great Western, said....

The deal will allow First Great Western to buy 29 new long-distance trains to serve the south west from 2018

I can find confirmation on the Hitachi site of the 100mph for the 801s, but the AT300 page has no definitive speed listed at now.....I'm sure it used to have. I'll post something when I find it....either way

110 mph from 53m 06ch at Newbury (through lines) to 58m 50ch just past Kintbury.

110mph from 76m 10ch to 83m 20ch and 86m 40ch to 94m 42ch between Pewsey and Westbury.

A total of just under 20^ miles of 110mph running between Newbury and Penzance.

>>> (20.75/100 - 20.75/110)*60
1.1318181818181816

I think the biggest time savings will come from having power doors.  Station dwell overtime is endemic on the lines to be covered (just have a look at Realtime Time Trains for evidence of that at stations like Pewsey and Castle Cary for example).

Oh, and we already have a topic discussing the AT300 order.

But without an internal connection - therefore potentially one half rammed and one half almost empty.  And can you really see FGW joining and splitting units as demand requires ?

And the trolley (no buffet on new trains) will be in the other unit.
As will be the first class host.
If the Pullman service survives the downgrade to DMU operation, that too will be in the wrong half. First class passengers who wish to dine wont be able to do so if in the wrong first class section (no gangways between units)
Those first class customers in the dining portion will then complain about lack of non-dining spaces (only 36 first class seats in the half length DMUs)

Where's your evidence for any of this?

Catering provision has not been decided for the AT300 fleet.

Yet again, more criticism of trains that haven't entered service. 

All you folk doing the criticising. Can I have a go on one of your crystal balls?  ::)

The trains are closely based on the SETs which we now know do not have buffets.

... And can you really see FGW joining and splitting units as demand requires ?

Well it is FGW that has published a 2018 service pattern that has the 10 car trains splitting at Plymouth, with 5 car going on to Penzance.

Paul

Can you quote the link for that if its available please, Paul?

To add to Richard's helpful provision of the link just above, there are explanations of the way services will be found both on page 8, in summary, and further back on page 49, where they point out that 12 additional local services each way will be provided between Plymouth and Penzance, with some extended to/from Exeter.

Presumably the theory is that all those local passengers within Cornwall who currently rely on the London trains will be persuaded onto the 158 service instead...

Paul

I'm not Paul but: https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/pdf/aboutus/ourbusiness/stakeholders%20report/nfgwf.pdf (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/pdf/aboutus/ourbusiness/stakeholders%20report/nfgwf.pdf?la=en)

"Standard pattern hourly service from London running non-stop between Reading and Taunton extending hourly to Plymouth and 2 hourly to Penzance. Depending on stock choice trains may split at Plymouth, with half the train continuing to Penzance"

Since there will be three 158 every 2 hours and one London train, that makes one train every 1/2 hour so on average we might expect 3/4 of the local passengers to want to use the 158's. 

12 additional return local services will operate
between 0642 and 2148 from Plymouth

Don't forget the Voyagers, I would expect these to run at upto once every 2 hours, this would require a 158 roughly once an hour

Having said that... which is quite a bit less than 1 per hour

But the FGW document says there will be three 158's every two hours!

The combination of local, inter-city and Cross Country services should provide a 2tph service frequency on the Cornish Main Line

Cross country trains are excluded from this diagram

My experiences over the past 30 years of travelling west from Plymouth is that an HST is usually only one third full (if that) but a 2 car DMU would quite often be full and standing.  My gut feeling then is that a 5 car "Intercity" type train is going to be about right.

...and of course splitting trains at Plymouth will be turning the clock back to how it used to work up to the 1970s  ::)  :P

I can forsee the joining and splitting of units on a carefully planned basis, such as 10 car to Plymouth and 5 car beyond.

What I can not forsee is joining or splitting "according to demand" on an ad hoc basis. If a service is planned to be 5 car beyond say Plymouth, then I predict that 5 car is what you will get, no matter how busy.

Ex Lib Dem MP hits out at 'preening' ministers as he questions new rail deal

(http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276272/Article/images/27526428/10629144-large.jpg)

A former Lib Dem MP has raised questions about the Government^s latest Westcountry rail announcement, suggesting passengers could see higher fares and reduced services.

He also criticised "preening" Conservative ministers and MPS, saying the party is too ^preoccupied with long-grass projects^ rather than delivering tangible improvements.

The comments, made by former Torbay MP Adrian Sanders, follow the announcement by rail ministers and First Great Western that a deal to roll out 29 new trains for London routes will go ahead.

The company said the new fleet of Hitachi trains will imcrease capacity at peak times by 1,000 seats a day and reduce journey times between Penzance and the capital by 14 minutes.

However, Mr Sanders has questioned the implications of the announcement, saying it is unclear how the ^360 million cost of funding the upgrade will be covered. He added that FGW and ministers failed to confirm whether the new trains will solely be used for journeys to the far South West, or whether they will be dispersed across Western routes, thereby reducing overall capacity.

Highlighting his concerns in a Facebook post, he said it ^appears^ that the Hitachi fleet ^will have to funded by passenger fare increases^.

^The first questions must be how much additional revenue will FGW require to pay for the new rolling stock and over what period, and how will this impact on the company^s fares,^ he wrote. ^A simple question requiring a yes or no answer is will the 29 new trains be used exclusively for journeys to and from the far South West. Given the current fleet of 58 125s are used across a range of service destinations between Wales, the West, South West and London, then a yes answer only leaves the question of capacity. If the answer is no then how does almost halving the rolling stock improve capacity and services to and from London?^

In addition to scrutinising Thursday^s rail announcement, Mr Sanders also condemned the Government^s wider approach to improving the region^s infrastructure. He said that while ministers were ^preening^ themselves on having achieved the new deal, ^our now 17 Conservative MPs in Devon and Cornwall have failed to obtain Government money to pay for the new stock^.

^I fear they are preoccupied with long-grass projects giving the impression of improvement but not delivering, such as feasibility studies for new lines across the north of Dartmoor or by-passing Dawlish, while in the meantime the people of the South West will have pay more than ever while other regions speed ahead with Government support,^ he said.

Responding to Mr Sanders^ comments, a spokesman for FGW said he could confirm the 29 trains had been brought ^specifically for Devon and Cornwall^.

^They are bespoke for Devon and Cornwall, with higher powered engines to deal with the route,^ he said. ^They are 100% for that area.^

He also stressed that the fleet would not mean an increase in passenger fares. ^Not least because the Government said it will put a freeze on fares, but also because of the additional income generated by the new trains,^ he explained.

"The 125s will go, but overall there will be an increase in the number of trains running. The 29 are on top of the 100 plus introduced to FGW's other high speed route between Paddington and Southern Wales."

But without an internal connection - therefore potentially one half rammed and one half almost empty.

What is it with folks aversion to new rolling stock?

Frankly I get tired of reading all this doom and gloom about rolling stock that hasn't travelled one passenger mile yet.

I have run some very rough numbers, and at the moment it requires roughly 14 HST diagrams to carry out the current Devon/Cornwall services, and admittedly whilst there will be an increase in the number of services, there shouldn't be any need for 29 diagrams. This should allow a good number of 5+5 to operate across this route.

I used just 16 diagrams which is still lower than the 7 nine cars + 11 ten cars.

To add to Richard's helpful provision of the link just above, there are explanations of the way services will be found both on page 8, in summary, and further back on page 49, where they point out that 12 additional local services each way will be provided between Plymouth and Penzance, with some extended to/from Exeter.

Presumably the theory is that all those local passengers within Cornwall who currently rely on the London trains will be persuaded onto the 158 service instead...

I do also wonder whether the bi mode capability could help to cost justify further electrification of the route. To take a reasonably topical  example, the section from Newbury to Bedwyn will be (indeed is) difficult to justify electrifying if only one 4 vehicle train per hour uses it.  If however, there are 19 vehicles per hour ( the local + 1 x 10 car + 1 x 5 car) able to take advantage of the juice then the cost benefit analysis will clearly improve.

... Probably the end of the Weymouth Wizard too. ...

Blast, that's the death warant for the Pembroke Coast Express signed then.

What is it with folks aversion to new rolling stock?

Frankly I get tired of reading all this doom and gloom about rolling stock that hasn't travelled one passenger mile yet.

7) What bearing does the A300 order have on services in Pembrokeshire?

Thus, when it was intended to retain IC125s for the Plymouth/Penzance route, there was some hope that the FirstGW/GWR would continue to provide the Pembroke Coast Express.

Thus, when it was intended to retain IC125s for the Plymouth/Penzance route, there was some hope that the FirstGW/GWR would continue to provide the Pembroke Coast Express. The AT300 order means no IC125s will now be retained by the GW franchise, meaning FirstGW/GWR will have no rolling stock capable of operating the service.

I can still see FirstGW/GWR retaining at least a handful of HSTs to help out the bimodes on London to West Country services, particularly in the summer months, in a similar fashion to the way HSTs are employed with Cross Country.

In particular, London services through Cornwall can get pretty full of people, luggage and surfboards etc, especially in the summer months and having some HSTs would arguably be a sensible addition.

If any HSTs ARE to be retained, then they would need downgrading so as to be as bad as the new ones.

I'm assuming the AT300s are going to be salt water resistant? :o

I can't see the provision of First Class on the AT300s being any different to the SETs. 36 and 71 respectively.

Hitachi Rail Europe wins orders for 19 AT300s for TransPennine Express

I wonder if they will get buffets  ;)

Don't start!

The IEPs have kitchens, and I would expect the very similar AT300 units for the longer distance services will also have kitchens.
What we don't yet know is whether or not a buffet will be provided, personally I rather doubt it, based on the IEP saga. The survey to prove that a buffet is not wanted has already been done.

Some form of hot food ordering service on the trains with a working kitchen would be nice, or perhaps the way XC are trying to do hot food - has anyone tried it yet?[/i]