Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - the next 5, 10 and 20 years => Topic started by: TaplowGreen on June 12, 2015, 11:20:22



Title: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 12, 2015, 11:20:22
http://www.expressandstar.com/business/city-news/2015/06/11/network-rail-debt-soars-to-38bn/

Performance "Isn't yet where we want it to be" has got to be the understatement of the year so far!

It's fortunate that the taxpayer is there to pick up the bill.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 12, 2015, 11:26:22
89+% isn't actually as poor as some TOCs!!


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 12, 2015, 13:37:09
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/18157/network-rail-monitor-2014-15-q3-4.pdf

Here's the report - makes pretty grim reading.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 12:33:43
BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586)
Quote
The government says it will delay or cut back a number of modernisation projects planned for Network Rail.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin says rising costs and missed targets make the ^38.5bn plan untenable.

Network Rail's chief executive told the BBC that the plan, which was launched in April last year as the "largest modernisation of the railways since Victorian times", was too ambitious.

Mr McLoughlin also said Network Rail's chairman would leave the group. Richard Parry-Jones will leave after his three year term at Network Rail, which controls 2,500 stations as well as tracks, tunnels and level crossings. He will be replaced by Sir Peter Hendy, the current commissioner of Transport for London.

The projects at most risk of being delayed are the electrification of the Great Western Railway to Swansea, as well as the electrification of the Midland Mainline. The chief executive of Network Rail, Mark Carne, told the BBC the challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects - such as the electrification of the Great Western line to South Wales, improved punctuality for millions of passengers and the renewal of hundreds of miles of track - while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming.

"Over the last year, it has become obvious that the challenges of operating, maintaining and enhancing the railway are significant," he said. "I think it's time to level with the public and say that some of these extraordinary projects that we absolutely need are going to take longer and are going to cost more than we originally thought. "We are going to take the summer to re-evaluate the extension of the programme - we need to do that properly with the Department for Transport and, of course, looking at the impact on trains as well."

He said it would not be possible to estimate the impact of the delays on the final cost.
Mr Carne said it was important to be honest with the travelling public: "Rather than beating ourselves up over some rather arbitrary target, I think we should level with people and reset expectations around what we can deliver.
"Our railway is a great success story, passenger numbers have doubled in the last 20 years - but it's a huge challenge to transform the performance of our railway while still providing a great service to the four-and-a-half million people that use our railway every day."


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 25, 2015, 12:38:53
Good way to cut costs!delay the work into the next Control Period.... I thought that CP5 would survive & CP6 get large cuts, but the lack of staff has been used to cut sooner


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 12:47:04
Surely Dft have to place an order for more DMU stock. Transpennine Express trains are close to bursting at the seems with the planned electrification bringing in new rolling stock put on the back burner. That looks a long way off now.

Regards Swansea likely to get the chop wires wise, where does that leave the IEP order, less 9 car electrics with 9 car bi-modes ordered?


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 12:50:13
BBC South Today's Transport correspondent Paul Clifton has just tweeted:

Electrification to Oxford is "vulnerable" say staff. Electric spine route "on pause."

Report on BBC South Today after the 1pm news.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 12:59:13
Statement to the House of Commons by Transport Secretary:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/network-rails-performance


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Kernow Otter on June 25, 2015, 13:30:37
Government needs to be brave, and 'pause' HS2 until the existing railway has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 25, 2015, 13:36:38
won't happen....too much egg on face


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 13:38:07
BBC South Today's Transport correspondent Paul Clifton has just tweeted:

Electrification to Oxford is "vulnerable" say staff. Electric spine route "on pause."

Report on BBC South Today after the 1pm news.
Claimed additionally in the report that at the time electrification should have reached Swansea it might only have got as far as Swindon.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: broadgage on June 25, 2015, 13:40:33
Surely Dft have to place an order for more DMU stock. Transpennine Express trains are close to bursting at the seems with the planned electrification bringing in new rolling stock put on the back burner. That looks a long way off now.

Regards Swansea likely to get the chop wires wise, where does that leave the IEP order, less 9 car electrics with 9 car bi-modes ordered?

My natural cynicism leads me to suspect that the order for electric IEP sets will be reduced in either train length or number of trains, and that the diesel order will be increased, but by less than the reduction in electric sets.
For example order 20 fewer electric trains and 8 more diesel ones.

And announce that the HSTs are to be life extended and re-deployed from the Electrified bit of the west to other areas where electrification is to be paused.
Then in a few years time announce that life extending the HSTs is not in fact viable, and that "some" overcrowding on DMUs will persist for a "few" years until electrification in the late 2020s, or perhaps a few years after that.



Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 13:43:54
Speech given by Patrick McLoughlin here (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/network-rails-performance). (As above - hadn't refreshed.)

As well as the electric spine, MML electrification seems to have been pushed out into future with concentration of available resources (people and money) on the GW.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 25, 2015, 13:46:22
Statement to the House of Commons by Transport Secretary:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/network-rails-performance

Same link....


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 13:49:54
BBC South Today's Transport correspondent Paul Clifton has just tweeted:

Electrification to Oxford is "vulnerable" say staff. Electric spine route "on pause."

Report on BBC South Today after the 1pm news.
Looks like the main focus is now on the main line to Bristol and Cardiff
Didcot to Oxford electrification is under threat
High Output Electrification Train described as 'a white elephant'




Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 13:52:53
Latest version of the BBC report linked to in the first post claims that the DfT has known about this since the spring; an election got in the way. Still it is the same amount of money, buying less.

Maybe with the coming of the Oxford to Marylebone service, Oxford to Didcot electrification looks less urgent overall. Big call though.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 25, 2015, 13:55:38
In the whole scheme, Didcot/Oxford must be a very small part?.....


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 13:59:36
It doesn't really affect the North Cotswold service that much as that is bi-mode anyway. However, if the EMU Oxford local/express services remain DMU/HST then this delays cascading. Unless you shuttle to Didcot.

And what about East-West ....


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 25, 2015, 14:03:57
That's why "vulnerable" rather than "paused" - i.e. they've realised EastWest can't go ahead properly & they need to find another cut ideally?


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 14:32:55
As it isn't in the actual announcement but in the reporter's comment (however well informed that might be) it may just be an option in the mix at the moment. Having fleets of SETs standing idle for a while or only running to Oxford might be the other unpalatable alternative.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 25, 2015, 14:58:56
Did you mean Didcot, perchance?


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 15:08:59
Did you mean Didcot, perchance?
I was thinking more of a scenario where effort was not all diverted onto the main line and maintained to Oxford instead to release the diesels.

The other thing that might save NR's face in all this (if not things in general) would be if the SET proved troublesome in early service.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 25, 2015, 15:10:43
I'd be surprised if Didcot to Oxford was postponed.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 17:46:13
How was BR able to electrify virtually the entire East Coast mainline in the 1980's with little fuss and yet despite all our 21st century technology Network Rail are struggling with just a few miles?

I know one answer is staff with the skills are no longer working on the railways.

Paul Clifton mentioned in his report on BBC South Today earlier that they are even recruiting from Indian railways.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 25, 2015, 18:01:42
How was BR able to electrify virtually the entire East Coast mainline in the 1980's with little fuss and yet despite all our 21st century technology Network Rail are struggling with just a few miles?

I know one answer is staff with the skills are no longer working on the railways.

Paul Clifton mentioned in his report on BBC South Today earlier that they are even recruiting from Indian railways.

Wasn't the ECML electrification done on the cheap, manifesting itself in the wiring falling apart every time it gets a bit windy?


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on June 25, 2015, 18:26:53
How was BR able to electrify virtually the entire East Coast mainline in the 1980's with little fuss and yet despite all our 21st century technology Network Rail are struggling with just a few miles?

I know one answer is staff with the skills are no longer working on the railways.

Paul Clifton mentioned in his report on BBC South Today earlier that they are even recruiting from Indian railways.

Wasn't the ECML electrification done on the cheap, manifesting itself in the wiring falling apart every time it gets a bit windy?

The reasons the ECML could be done without fuss are many and varied
The ECML was the panicle of experience, based on the early work on the GE and then the WCML this was a span of well over 40 years, there has been a 25 year gap since the last major scheme on a live railway
Health and safety regulations are substantially different, the hours people can work on site have been reduced.
Planning permission hoops are more stringent

One of the major problems the industry has is the shortage of skilled and experienced workforce.  Critical resources that project teams will start to put actual names to tasks during July and August for work this Christmas are Signalling Tester in Charge, Overhead Line Level A (some who issues safety documents) and if you want a Level A for distribution if the project has not got them already lined up you can say good by to distribution testing over Christmas.  Other resources in short supply OHL lines men (we fetch them in for Germany, Spain, Hungary at peak times like Christmas, signalling installers and testers.

However there are plenty of accountants   
 



Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 18:46:54
Reports tonight that the cost of the GWML electrification has gone from ^1bn in 2009 to ^7bn now. That's insane!  :o


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ellendune on June 25, 2015, 18:56:39
Reports tonight that the cost of the GWML electrification has gone from ^1bn in 2009 to ^7bn now. That's insane!  :o

What was included in the original estimate.  Part of the justification was that the signalling needed replacing anyway and so did the trains so it was not a lot extra. 

Are we comparing the same numbers. 



Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 25, 2015, 19:01:08
How was BR able to electrify virtually the entire East Coast mainline in the 1980's with little fuss and yet despite all our 21st century technology Network Rail are struggling with just a few miles?

I know one answer is staff with the skills are no longer working on the railways.

Paul Clifton mentioned in his report on BBC South Today earlier that they are even recruiting from Indian railways.

Wasn't the ECML electrification done on the cheap, manifesting itself in the wiring falling apart every time it gets a bit windy?
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the reason the ECML wires fall down more often than the WCML is that the southern section of the ECML project was only intended for the suburban services and hence wasn't really up to the job once the wires were extended and 125mph INTERCITY services started using them. Not sure if that's true though.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on June 25, 2015, 20:57:50
Reports tonight that the cost of the GWML electrification has gone from ^1bn in 2009 to ^7bn now. That's insane!  :o

What was included in the original estimate.  Part of the justification was that the signalling needed replacing anyway and so did the trains so it was not a lot extra. 

Are we comparing the same numbers. 

I feel there is some mixing of the apples with other fruit, (not comparing apples with apples)

The doom and gloom merchants about Electrification will always add in the cost of re-signalling junction upgrades even the new rolling stock.

The cost of electrification on the GWML is costing more than the original ^1B, that figure was a political figure not plucked out of thin air but as Mark Carne said in the BBC news article a little optimistic.

He is right about access time, for every hour we get to physically do work there will be 4 or 5 time that just planning it and that does not include what any normal project would do review designs etc 


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 25, 2015, 21:06:13
For me it was only a matter of time before they had to announce that it's not going well.

As far as I can work out (from info released today) we will still get the wires to Newbury?

I guess Bedwyn is completely out of the question now.



Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Rapidash on June 25, 2015, 21:12:58
Fat chance of anything further West than Bristol ever getting sparky then. No doubt  this will stuff up  the cascade plans and the Devon Metro will be lumbered with bloomin' D trains.....


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 21:19:43
What was included in the original estimate.  Part of the justification was that the signalling needed replacing anyway and so did the trains so it was not a lot extra. 

Are we comparing the same numbers. 
Good point. This was what was mentioned on BBC Points West this evening that the estimated cost is now ^7.5bn 7 times more than the estimate in 2009. That is a very general headline figure that makes a good news story without giving detail of what that money is actually buying now compared to when it was announced that the estimated cost would be ^1bn back in 2009.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 21:23:47
Fat chance of anything further West than Bristol ever getting sparky then. No doubt  this will stuff up  the cascade plans and the Devon Metro will be lumbered with bloomin' D trains.....
Yup, I have a feeling that the company behind the D train conversation project is about to receive a lot of orders that most of if not all D stock will be required.

If they come up with a quality product for the right price then why not? Better than overcrowded trains.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: John R on June 25, 2015, 21:25:40
How was BR able to electrify virtually the entire East Coast mainline in the 1980's with little fuss and yet despite all our 21st century technology Network Rail are struggling with just a few miles?

I know one answer is staff with the skills are no longer working on the railways.

Paul Clifton mentioned in his report on BBC South Today earlier that they are even recruiting from Indian railways.

Wasn't the ECML electrification done on the cheap, manifesting itself in the wiring falling apart every time it gets a bit windy?
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the reason the ECML wires fall down more often than the WCML is that the southern section of the ECML project was only intended for the suburban services and hence wasn't really up to the job once the wires were extended and 125mph INTERCITY services started using them. Not sure if that's true though.

I doubt it. Everything north of Hitchin was done as part of the Edinburgh scheme, and it seems to be the 4 track headsman section between there and Huntingdon which often comes to pieces. And yes it was done on the cheap - ^300m in 1984 prices which is probably around ^1.2Bn today.  


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 25, 2015, 21:29:12
In all that was announced today one thing is certain HST lives on on the GW mainline! If it wasn't already planned, could we see HSTs in the new GW green livery?

It could be a long time before Scotrail see GW HSTs running north of the border. I guess that the IEPs being built now for the GW will go to the East Coast first of all as they can handle them being an electrified railway.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ellendune on June 25, 2015, 21:42:17
In all that was announced today one thing is certain HST lives on on the GW mainline! If it wasn't already planned, could we see HSTs in the new GW green livery?

It could be a long time before Scotrail see GW HSTs running north of the border. I guess that the IEPs being built now for the GW will go to the East Coast first of all as they can handle them being an electrified railway.
I don't think that is certain yet.  There does not yet seem to be a race to cut costs at any price and they know they will have to replace the HST's some time soon or do a very major rebuild that is of questionable value. 

I think the certain thing is that things will happen slower. Maybe that is right if, as it seems, we just don't have the skills any more. We need time to relearn the skills on one project before we carry on with others. 


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: paul7575 on June 25, 2015, 21:45:45
Haven't the BBC got previous form for this, including e.g. Reading re-modelling and station rebuild in the 'electrification costs' in one report a couple of years back?

The latest headline figure is probably GR total route modernisation + rolling stock + Crossrail on network + WRaTH, and even Dawlish avoiding line (highest cost option) and Tavistock.  Oh and then Bristol Metro, Devon Metro, - is there anything else we could round up and include?

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: grahame on June 25, 2015, 21:46:10
In all that was announced today one thing is certain HST lives on on the GW mainline! If it wasn't already planned, could we see HSTs in the new GW green livery?

Attachment from FGW press ...


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: didcotdean on June 25, 2015, 22:37:46
Reports tonight that the cost of the GWML electrification has gone from ^1bn in 2009 to ^7bn now. That's insane!  :o
The figure quoted on BBC Oxford was ^1.7bn which seems a bit more plausible, although still no clarity on exactly what this contains.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: JayMac on June 25, 2015, 23:43:39
Fat chance of anything further West than Bristol ever getting sparky then.

Err... last time I looked at a map, Cardiff was west of Bristol.  ::)


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 26, 2015, 00:45:30
And so is Swansea.  ;)

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-33255415):

Quote
Cameron quizzed on London-Swansea rail upgrade timescale

David Cameron has been challenged to say whether a project to electrify rail lines between London and Swansea will be completed by 2018.

A newspaper report has suggested the UK government plans to "scale back and axe rail electrification projects".

During Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Cameron told Plaid Cymru MP Jonathan Edwards that ministers were committed to the London-Swansea scheme. But he said Network Rail needed to get its costs "under control".

Mr Edwards asked: "Can you inform the house and the people of Wales whether it continues to be the policy of your government to complete [the upgrade] to Swansea by 2018 and part-fund the Valley lines?"

Mr Cameron replied: "We're absolutely committed to electrifying the Great Western Main Line to Cardiff, through to Swansea. We're also contributing ^125m to the cost of the wider Valley lines electrification. It's vital that this work goes ahead. We do need to make sure that Network Rail gets its costs under control and has strong leadership in place and we'll make sure those things happen."


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 26, 2015, 05:19:30
That was Wednesday, this announcement was Thursday. Suspect pne supercedes the other? I suspect Seansea will get done but as with the other projects, it'll meet a delay


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 26, 2015, 05:29:21
From BBC Wales politics (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-33270017) on Thursday:

Quote
Great Western rail electrification 'a top priority'

Electrifying the Great Western line is "a top priority", the transport secretary has said, as he announces a rethink of a ^38bn programme to overhaul Britain's railways.

Patrick McLoughlin said Network Rail's five-year plan was being "reset" as it was "costing more and taking longer". Schemes in the Midlands and Yorkshire would be put on hold, he told MPs.

Sir Peter Hendy will become the new chairman of Network Rail in place of Gwynedd-born Richard Parry-Jones.

Mr McLoughin told MPs on Thursday that the planned programme of rail upgrades was being reviewed to "get it back on track".

"Electrification of the Great Western line is a top priority and I want Network Rail to concentrate its efforts on getting that right," he said.

Responding for the Welsh government, Economy Minister Edwina Hart said: "It's got to be kept on budget, it's got to be kept on time because ourselves and industry are desperate to ensure we have the electrification to Swansea. I'm hopeful that this is an absolute commitment with the government, but we will certainly be taking them to task if they deviate."

Wales Office Minister Alun Cairns said he was "pleased to hear the strong commitment to south Wales electrification through to Swansea from the transport secretary today". "This project will transform the lives of people in south Wales by attracting investors, linking businesses to suppliers and connecting people to jobs."

David Cameron had said during Prime Minister's Questions on Tuesday that ministers were "absolutely committed" to the London-Swansea upgrade following a newspaper report that some projects would be shelved.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: grahame on June 26, 2015, 06:45:25
It really wouldn't make sense (to me) for them to stop short of Oxford, (or Bristol or Cardiff!) and I would suspect that a Swansea phase is fairly safe; don't know enough about outside GW area to comment on those.  With Oxford and its big passenger flows, it would  seem crazy to turn electric trains back at Didcot which - although growing and planned to do so - ain't no Reading-sized hub.  Of course, you could make Swindon the end of the suburban run, with a Didcot - Oxford shuttle, but somehow I doubt that ;).


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on June 26, 2015, 07:55:48
In all that was announced today one thing is certain HST lives on on the GW mainline! If it wasn't already planned, could we see HSTs in the new GW green livery?

It could be a long time before Scotrail see GW HSTs running north of the border. I guess that the IEPs being built now for the GW will go to the East Coast first of all as they can handle them being an electrified railway.

This announcement is about controlling Network Rail spend and not the overall railway spend by the DfT, it was in the statement that a further announcement will be made in the autumn regarding services in the SW under the FGW contract; the current model for train sets seems to be a lease lend arrangement with the manufacture who supply, maintain and upgrade the sets over contract period typically 30 years, the TOC's seem to being moved away from the maintaining trains, so this could lead to new or refurbed sets maintained outside of the TOC.

Bedwin may well still be on the cards as it makes operational sense, reduces the amount of different rolling stock.  The electrification Thames Valley Branches I suspect will get deferred, unless savings are made during the main GW scheme or a strong operational / cascade case can be made.  I believe length of platform 2 at Bourne End being one of the main stumbling blocks as all the new train sets will be 4 car min


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ellendune on June 26, 2015, 08:14:15
I believe that deferral of any part of the project will be as much about availability of resources (principally skilled people) as about balancing the budget.  Indeed the I think what the overspend has highlighted is how interrelated these two issues are.  Someone defined an engineer as a person who could do for 9d (~ 4p) what any fool could do for 2/6 (two shillings and six pence - i.e. 12.5p).  Trying to do a project without sufficient skilled and experienced people is always gong to be expensive.  Extending the timescale balances the budget, allows the existing skilled and experienced people to influence the cost on the work being done, and gives more time to build up the skill base for later phases of the work.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: ChrisB on June 26, 2015, 09:30:20
This announcement is about controlling Network Rail spend and not the overall railway spend by the DfT, it was in the statement that a further announcement will be made in the autumn regarding services in the SW under the FGW contract;

You sure about that? The announcement in the autumn will be about what is deferred / paused and what continues;
Quote
I am asking him to develop proposals by the Autumn for how the rail upgrade programme will be carried out.
The SoS said separately that he'd make an announcement "soon" on the extra AT300s
Quote
For passengers in the south west the new contract with First Great Western will provide significant extra capacity.I hope to be able to announce news on further new trains for the region soon.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 26, 2015, 09:46:33
Just to clarify my statement about the 'HSTs living on on the GW mainline'. I didn't mean indefinitely.

IEP is coming to the GW, but for now because of the issues Network Rail are facing with electrification, there will be delays so HSTs will be with us for a bit (maybe a lot) longer than planned hence me saying they live on.

I do realise yesterday's announcement was about Network Rail's spending and not Dft's. As we know an agreement has already been signed with Hitachi to supply trains to replace HSTs on the GW.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on June 26, 2015, 19:03:15
I see the bearded one has waded in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33281468 of he is domicile and a regular commuter


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on June 26, 2015, 19:20:12
I see the bearded one has waded in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33281468 of he is domicile and a regular commuter
He is a regular commuter...between the UK and his private Island  ;)


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on June 27, 2015, 08:25:07
Someone defined an engineer as a person who could do for 9d (~ 4p) what any fool could do for 2/6 (two shillings and six pence - i.e. 12.5p). 

A quote often credited to Nevil Shute, who was an aeronautical engineer, working on the R100 airship (the privately-developed one that didn't crash) under Barnes Wallis. The monetary values in the quote change a lot.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on June 27, 2015, 08:58:45
Someone defined an engineer as a person who could do for 9d (~ 4p) what any fool could do for 2/6 (two shillings and six pence - i.e. 12.5p). 

A quote often credited to Nevil Shute, who was an aeronautical engineer, working on the R100 airship (the privately-developed one that didn't crash) under Barnes Wallis. The monetary values in the quote change a lot.

Ah yes that is true and then someone invented project managers, 'elf n safety managers et al ............ all well loved and respected colleges but they do add to the engineering overhead


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: paul7575 on June 27, 2015, 12:47:40
I see the bearded one has waded in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33281468 of he is domicile and a regular commuter

...he's a stuck record on that subject.  No way Virgin are going to maintain the WCML infrastructure.   I see later in the piece NR rubbish his stats anyway...

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 29, 2015, 20:29:04
Here's FGW's official press release regarding the electrification delays:

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/2015/june/great-western-electrification-announcement (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/2015/june/great-western-electrification-announcement)

One suspects that the unofficial version is somewhat more scathing!


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: JayMac on June 29, 2015, 21:07:39
I wonder whether FGW will continue the advertising campaign riding on the coat tails of Network Rail, with their 'Greatest Investment Since Brunel' spin.

Could become somewhat toxic to be associated with the investment ('associated' in the loosest sense of course) if the various completion dates continue to slide.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 15, 2015, 02:02:25
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33508800):

Quote
Ministers 'kept in dark' over rail scheme delays

Network Rail decided in March that rail improvements might have to be halted within weeks of the general election, but failed to tell the government until after polling day.

The BBC has learned that despite having "direct oversight" of Network Rail, and pledging extra electrification in the election campaign, ministers were kept in the dark about the rail operator's plans.

Sources at the Department for Transport said a Network Rail minute revealing a decision would have to be taken soon after polling day was not sent to the government until 22 May.

The sources said neither ministers nor officials were informed.

It means Conservatives made a rail manifesto pledge to electrify rail routes in ignorance of Network Rail's plans.

However, Labour insisted the news showed ministers must have known rail electrification projects would be paused in June, and that they had misled voters.

The Conservatives pledged to electrify rail routes in their manifesto, only to put plans for electrifying two lines on hold shortly after polling day.

Minutes of a Network Rail board meeting from March show the board agreed to a plan that included making "decisions required jointly with the DfT re enhancement deferrals from June".

"Enhancement" is industry jargon for upgrade. "Enhancement deferral" refers to delaying upgrades.

It is understood rail executives had judged that taking any longer to pause struggling projects would incur extra costs.

The government has had "direct oversight" of Network Rail since September last year.

One senior rail executive has told me further delays are expected of major projects in the north of England.

Network Rail's plans there had become a "standing joke" the executive said.

Rail schemes were at the heart of George Osborne's election promise to create a "northern powerhouse".

Shadow transport secretary Michael Dugher said: "This revelation shows ministers must have known before the general election that vital rail electrification projects would be shelved. It is becoming increasingly apparent ministers deliberately decided to cynically mislead people during the general election campaign that key rail lines would be electrified in the Midlands and the North, knowing full well that they would then renege on these commitments after the election. "

Minutes from Network Rail board meetings as early as November reveal there were concerns about the "deliverability" and affordability of upgrades.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: PhilWakely on September 30, 2015, 15:29:33
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34402592)
Quote
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/21A5/production/_85831680_004374105-1.jpg)
The electrification of two railway lines is to be restarted after the projects were halted so a review could be carried out, the government says.

Work on the TransPennine Express Railway - between Manchester and York - and Midland Mainline - from London to Sheffield - was paused in June.

Sir Peter Hendy, chair of Network Rail, said the "temporary pause" had "given us the space to develop a better plan".

Transport minister Patrick McLoughlin said work could now resume immediately.

The TransPennine upgrade is expected to provide capacity for six "fast or semi-fast trains" per hour between Manchester, Leeds and York , reducing journey times by up to 15 minutes.

The Manchester to York section of the work is now planned to be completed by 2022.

Once completed, the whole line from Liverpool to Newcastle will be fully electrified, the Department for Transport added.

The electrification of Midland Mainline north of Bedford to Kettering and Corby will now be completed by 2019, and the line north of Kettering to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and to Sheffield will finish by 2023.

"We face some difficult challenges, and there is more work still to do, but the secretary of state's decision means we can now move forward with our plans to electrify TransPennine and Midland Mainline," Sir Peter added.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analysis
(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/6FC5/production/_85831682_83851430.jpg)

By BBC North of England correspondent Danny Savage

There was uproar in June when it was announced that the electrification of the TransPennine route and the Midland Mainline between London and Sheffield was being delayed indefinitely.

Upgrading the TransPennine line between Manchester and York was part of a wider package of measures to improve the rail network in the North, as part of Chancellor George Osborne's ambition to create a northern economic "powerhouse".

When the delay was announced some people commented it was a "northern powercut".

Now the work is to resume.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Northern Powerhouse'

In June, Mr McLoughlin told Parliament he was pausing both electrification projects - resulting in criticisms from rail users and MPs in the affected areas.

He told MPs he was delaying or cutting back parts of a five-year ^38bn plan to modernise the UK's rail network, blaming Network Rail for rising costs and missed targets.

At the time, he said "better services" could be delivered on Midland Mainline before electrification was completed.

Addressing the TransPennine route, he told Parliament in June: "We need to be much more ambitious for that route."

Network Rail then carried out a review of the projects and an update on the projects was delivered to Mr McLoughlin on Monday.

'Damaging hiatus'

In a letter to Network Rail, the transport minister said work on the two lines could be "unpaused with immediate effect and progressed with some urgency".

He said "connecting up" cities in northern England was "at the heart of our plan to build a Northern Powerhouse".

"This government will see the job through and build a better, faster and more reliable railway for passengers in the North and Midlands," he said.

In June, Labour accused the government of deceiving the public over its decision to pause the two projects, saying it was clear the plans were in "serious difficulty" before May's general election.

Shadow transport secretary, Lilian Greenwood, said: "We warned ministers for months that these projects were at risk, but they cynically waited until after the election to withdraw support."

Ministers had been forced to change course after an "outcry" from passengers after the projects were stopped, she added.

Ms Greenwood accused the government of "incompetence", saying the delays had led to a "damaging hiatus, which had seen construction job losses and resources shifted to other projects".


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Rhydgaled on September 30, 2015, 16:32:00
Quote
The electrification of Midland Mainline north of Bedford to Kettering and Corby will now be completed by 2019, and the line north of Kettering to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and to Sheffield will finish by 2023.
An awkward 4yr gap there (2020, 2021, 2022, 2023) between TSI PRM introduction (making the IC125s which currently work some Midland Mainline services illegal) and electrification (which will presumably bring replacement trains). I wonder if a derrogation from TSI PRM is likely or if somebody's going to find the cash to pay for the major works needed to make the IC125s compliant or buy new 125mph diesel traction.

Quote
In June, Mr McLoughlin told Parliament he was pausing both electrification projects - resulting in criticisms from rail users and MPs in the affected areas.

He told MPs he was delaying or cutting back parts of a five-year ^38bn plan to modernise the UK's rail network, blaming Network Rail for rising costs and missed targets.

At the time, he said "better services" could be delivered on Midland Mainline before electrification was completed.
The 'unpause' is a welcome supprise given that only this morning I was reading very depressing news in Modern Railways which sounded like even the promised improvements short of electrification mentioned in the above quote would have to be scrapped to get CP5 to come in on-budget given the Great Western cost escalation.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Timmer on September 30, 2015, 16:33:28
Great news yes but have you seen the completion dates?


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2015, 16:57:31
Quote
The electrification of Midland Mainline north of Bedford to Kettering and Corby will now be completed by 2019, and the line north of Kettering to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and to Sheffield will finish by 2023.
An awkward 4yr gap there (2020, 2021, 2022, 2023) between TSI PRM introduction (making the IC125s which currently work some Midland Mainline services illegal) and electrification (which will presumably bring replacement trains). I wonder if a derrogation from TSI PRM is likely or if somebody's going to find the cash to pay for the major works needed to make the IC125s compliant or buy new 125mph diesel traction.

I'm pleased and slightly surprised at this news as I would have put money on one of the schemes getting the chop.  Let's hope there are no further problems further 'down the line'.  As for the EMT HST fleet it'll be interesting to see how that gap will be resolved, though the fleet is relatively small (12 sets?), so I'm sure a resolution can be found.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2015, 18:13:08
Quote
The electrification of Midland Mainline north of Bedford to Kettering and Corby will now be completed by 2019, and the line north of Kettering to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and to Sheffield will finish by 2023.
An awkward 4yr gap there (2020, 2021, 2022, 2023) between TSI PRM introduction (making the IC125s which currently work some Midland Mainline services illegal) and electrification (which will presumably bring replacement trains). I wonder if a derrogation from TSI PRM is likely or if somebody's going to find the cash to pay for the major works needed to make the IC125s compliant or buy new 125mph diesel traction.

Actually, having read Hendy's letter to the SoS it does state that Kettering to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield will be finished in stages by 2023.  With the relatively small number of HST's in EMT's fleet, if, say, the Nottingham stage was completed by 2020/1 that would make it much easier for the SoS to exercise his/her power in granting an short extension, as that alone would probably release enough units to allow the HST fleet to be stepped down.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 30, 2015, 18:56:00
So.....after standing down all the external resources how are they expecting to reactivate them quickly.....Engineers working on those projects have moved onto something else.... ::) :P


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on September 30, 2015, 20:08:00
It comes at a price though, other renewals and enhancements Nationally are being deferred into CP6 as there is no new money (or at least very little from DfT)


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Rhydgaled on October 01, 2015, 11:06:15
It comes at a price though, other renewals and enhancements Nationally are being deferred into CP6 as there is no new money (or at least very little from DfT)
Does anyone have a list of what enhancements are being pushed back to CP6 or has it not been decided yet?

With the relatively small number of HST's in EMT's fleet, if, say, the Nottingham stage was completed by 2020/1 that would make it much easier for the SoS to exercise his/her power in granting an short extension, as that alone would probably release enough units to allow the HST fleet to be stepped down.
Yes, that does sound like it might be a workable solution; if I recall correctly EMT's IC125s generally only work one route (either Nottingham or Sheffield, I forget which). There are a few Leeds workings for the IC125s which could be a problem, unless the Corby wiring releases enough Meridians.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: brompton rail on October 01, 2015, 15:51:16
Ah, but the HST movements to/from Leeds are there to allow EMT's HSTs to reach Nevile Hill Maintenance depot. Some early morning southbound services run Leeds - Sheffield - Derby - St Pancras (& similar late evening northbound) presumably because they don't have enough Meridians to cover these. Meridians, I think, have fewer coaches than HSTs too.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Electric train on October 01, 2015, 21:18:09
It comes at a price though, other renewals and enhancements Nationally are being deferred into CP6 as there is no new money (or at least very little from DfT)

Does anyone have a list of what enhancements are being pushed back to CP6 or has it not been decided yet?

Work in progress so I understand. 

Also I wonder if the new NR Chairman has gone to the Sec of State and said if you want me to continue in the job put u'r hand you pocket Patrick and give me the cash



Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: Visoflex on October 02, 2015, 08:56:22
Quote
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/21A5/production/_85831680_004374105-1.jpg)
The electrification of two railway lines is to be restarted after the projects were halted so a review could be carried out, the government says.

Work on the TransPennine Express Railway - between Manchester and York - and Midland Mainline - from London to Sheffield - was paused in June.

Sir Peter Hendy, chair of Network Rail, said the "temporary pause" had "given us the space to develop a better plan".

Transport minister Patrick McLoughlin said work could now resume immediately.

I suppose this has nothing to do with the location of next week's Conservative Party conference has it?  Where is it being held again?  Oh yes - Manchester ::)


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 02, 2015, 14:14:33
With those two schemes 'un-paused', and looking at where money can be saved, for me, the Electric Spine from Southampton to Nuneaton is probably the one major scheme we can manage without.  We have trains, both freight and passenger, that are relatively new and powered by either diesel or 3rd rail, high conversion costs of Basingstoke to Southampton from 3rd rail to overhead lines and limited local services that would benefit from electric traction.  That results in the TOC/FOC's concerned being decidedly underwhelmed.

The trouble is, cancel that and it affects other schemes - for example East-West Rail's own electrification, which looks less attractive when electric freight and possibly electric longer distance Cross Country services are taken out of the mix.  So perhaps a diesel operated East-West Rail will also be opted for - I'm not too bothered about that as long as the thing does actually open!


Title: Re: Network Rail's electrification upgrade delayed, now restarted, by government
Post by: paul7575 on October 02, 2015, 17:53:00
The trouble is, cancel that and it affects other schemes - for example East-West Rail's own electrification, which looks less attractive when electric freight and possibly electric longer distance Cross Country services are taken out of the mix.  So perhaps a diesel operated East-West Rail will also be opted for - I'm not too bothered about that as long as the thing does actually open!

The Western route study suggests that the third XC service (i.e. a third one between Reading and Oxford) only runs as far as Basingstoke, and Basingstoke is supposedly still being wired as a "GW branch", so would possibly be independent of the 'electric spine' proposal.

Paul



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net