Great Western Coffee Shop

A long and interesting article from the BBC ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32916197

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The Borders Agency.

The Borders Agency.
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Absolutely.  Some people blame the UK's refusal to join Schengen, but the truth is that even outside of Schengen we could have passport checks on the train if the Borders Agency (or whatever they are called this week) could be bothered.

Other stupidity is the 30 min checkin time at St Pancras and the security theatre which for some reason isn't deemed to apply to other subaqueous tunnels. 

The Borders Agency.
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Cannot blame the UK Boarders Agency we (the royal we) have not signed up to the Schengen Agreement hence we will always need to go through Pass Port Control.  It is unreasonable to expect these control posts to be at every potential destination; the onboard checks were stopped many years ago I believe in part to treaty agreement ie what do you do with undesirables on the train and the practicalities of doing pass port checks on the train especially after 9-11.

We will have to put up with the de training at places like Lille on a UK bound service.  This was one of the reasons DB dropped the idea of a train service to the UK.

So may be a second question on the EU referendum in 2016/17 should we sign up to the  Schengen Agreement yes / no

I've had an on train check on the Eurostar before, so it can certainly be done. I'd imagine they would need more resource to do it though.

There are various cross-border non-Schengen trains where passport checks are done on the train. I've even known that happen when entering or leaving the old-Soviet bloc, when it still was that (though not the USSR itself). I wonder if the reason is not as much to do with HMRC as UKBA (or whatever they're called now)?

Questions ... is it in Eurostar's commercial interest for border checks to remain just as they are?   Is it in their interest for the tunnel to have stringent regulation of trains such that theirs can run and it's difficult for others to do so?

The Allegro train between Russia and Finland manages to have on-board customs and border control.  During the journey, in both directions, passengers are visited by four officials: Russian immigration, Russian customs, Finnish immigration and Finnish customs.  From what I've heard, between two stations (one in Russia, one in Finland) passengers are not permitted to move from their seat and the restaurant closes.  I'm told the staff even have handheld computers for scanning passports.

Considering Russia is a country where almost every non-Russian requires a visa, I cannot see how a UK-France implementation could be any more complicated.

There are three things to consider:

1) Passport control - because we are not in Schengen - but that could easily be done on the train.  I have had my passport checked between Antwerp and Rotterdam only a couple of years ago and they are in Schengen. 
2) Customs - not required since we are both in the EU (for the moment at least).
3) Security - The current level of security would not be practical on the train, but could perhaps be rolled out to a few more stations unless there is some new technical solution. 

A point of order, if you please!

The Schengen Agreement of 1995 and the implementing Convention of 1990 were adopted into mainstream EU law by the Amsterdam Treaty of 1997 which came into force in 1999.

Thus the UK is, de jure, part of the Schengen area and is bound by its conditions which are now part of European Law. What the UK does have - together with Ireland - is an opt-out in removing border controls.

The Schengen agreement is often represented here as allowing passport-free travel. It doesn't. What it does not allow are specific border controls between member states (except in a state of emergency) but members of one member state travelling in another have to meet the local requirements for proof of identity. In the case of continental Europe generally ID cards issued by one country are accepted in another - and, yes, checks can occur on trains but these are not a specific border check. They can occasionally happen on domestic trains in, for example, Germany in border areas, the so-called Zollgrenzbezirk.

As the UK does not issue ID cards a UK traveller would still have to carry a passport even if it is not checked at the border.

Why didn't we join schengen?

As a regular traveller by ferry and euro tunnel, passport checks are questionable at best. On my last trip for example, of the 4 passports I presented of each of the 4 checks over the return trip only 1 checked all 4 passports I had presented.
This is representative of most of my recent trips. They normally only check 1 or 2 of the passports. My car has heavily tinted rear windows so there is no way they check the Children in the back against the passports.

I will attempt to make this contribution as unbiased as I can.

The UK is engaged in a debate about immigration in which some are very happy to have the strictest possible controls on EU and non-EU persons entering and others espouse the freedom on movement enshrined in the EU ethos. Train lovers mostly seem happy to slip over borders without hindrance, but politically it would be difficult to relax UK border controls and financially there are pressures on all public services so enlarging points in mainland Europe where UK controls can be put in place is unlikely.

The upshot is that Eurostar's economics have little to do with anything and they have to arrange their services to suit the politics.

I am a reasonably regular user of the Eurostar service - all our European trips use the train for the vast majority of longer distance travel.

I think the criticism of the UK Borders Agency is completely unwarranted, believing that they are merely the delivery team for UK government policy - a policy with which I happen to strongly agree -  who usually do a pretty good job. Recent returns from both Paris & Brussels included departure station passport checks which lasted no more than a couple of minutes. The baggage scans were very quick as well.

Speaking personally I regard the view that trans-European rail travel will only work for journeys of up to around 4 hours as wrong - if I could catch a direct service from London to Barcelona I would be delighted to do so because I love just watching the varied scenery roll past while enjoying a drop of fermented grape juice and/or reading a good book; the novelty of airports and then having to play 'I spy with my little eye something beginning with C' for virtually the whole journey was lost on me a long time ago.   

And I can back that up with our recent experience.  However, we then had to wait in a lounge with many more people than comfortable seats available, stand (if we wished) in a long queue for a coffee / snack, queue to get out of that lounge area when the train was called, walk an interminable distance up the platform (all of the above with luggage) and then fight for luggage space on the train.   The train was smooth, fast, reasonably comfortable but there wasn't power available at any of the seats, nor was there any WiFi access.  And it's bloomin irritating at St Pancras, arriving in the front of the train that we had walked all that way to, to have to travel backwards to exit the platform / arrival areas and then forward again in a zigzag to the underground and in the case of one of our party, join the queue to work the machines for a tube ticket.

But then ... our carriage was full, and if loadings and utilisation are good, the product's clearly good enough for people.  I suspect that a business class journey overcomes most or all of these niggles, and we travelled down to a price rather than up to a standard.   Perhaps it needs a few competitor products such Renfe from Barcelona and Db from Munich via Frankfurt ... but I can't believe I'm suggesting that, bearing in mind some of the competitive issues we have with the UK system  ;D

Eurostar works extremely well with Pass Port checks on its traditional route London, Paris, Brussels with its established stops on route.  Where it will struggle is the extension of routes The UK Boarder Agency do do a very good job. 

The on board train Pass Port checking is more likely to come down to who finances it; I suspect France, Belgium and any other of European partners would expect the UK to pick up the tab, in turn the UK Government would expect the train operator to cover the cost.

I am certainly looking forward to the day I can do a London / Amsterdam through train.   

I too look forward to this especially if it stops at Rotterdam.  I look forward even more to the return service as it is the prospect of a missed connection at Brussels that has caused most adrenaline on these journeys over the years. A 75 min stop at Lille (longer than the time currently spent at Brussels for the change of train) does not seem to provide the answer to the return journey. 

Passport control is solvable.  It is the security that needs a solution. 

Firstly we need to ask whether a train needs much higher security checks than a ferry, even if it is in a tunnel?

Well - there have been trains, undergrounds and buses blown up ... interesting to go through a baggage Xray at Barcelona for the train to Toulouse a couple of weeks ago.     I don't have answers - I suppose that statistically iconic services are likely to be targeted, so "need" a higher level of security.

I find it strange that foot passengers are often subjected to airport style security at ferry ports, yet there is no similar check for road vehicles.

Same for the Channel Tunnel, where Eurostar passengers are screened but Le Shuttle cars are not.

Makes a mockery of the whole security theatre really.

Last time I came back in through Plymouth and every foot passenger got sniffed out by a police dog. For cars about every 10 were getting checked.
It was a ferry from Spain, which seem to be frequently making news for drugs busts.

That would be customs.  The pre-boarding security is the theatre I am referring to.

The high speed station in Madrid has security scanners for bags akin to airports, even if travelling within Spain.