Great Western Coffee Shop

From Get Reading (http://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/reading-fc-wembley-fans-criticise-9039512):

They're discouraging people from traveling by train (hardly a good advert for the railway) by claiming the trains will be busy enough as it is on top of the extra fans travelling and that they have no spare trains. Whilst I see that Swindon - Didcot is shut therefore I assume the Oxfords will be lengthened and there are specials for Newbury racecourse I bet there will still be numerous units sat in Reading TMD all day, don't see why they can't run a couple of 6+ car turbos to Paddington and back.

I'd suggest that anyone wanting Group Save from Reading to Paddington this Saturday buys their tickets online from FGW. The booking engine is not applying any bar.  ::)

Well spotted BNM and quite right Adelante - if FGW are that worried about overcrowding (it doesn't bother them from Mon-Fri!) then they can run/lengthen a few extra services - myself and my friends always use Groupsave tickets to get to Twickenham on matchdays and those services are extremely busy but I've never known it to be suspended - this could be yet another FGW PR disaster.

I have sympathy both ways.   Groupsave is a marketing tool to encourage quieter time use, and clearly this won't be a quieter time.  On the other hand, adding a restriction - especially an extra one (I guess this is one) at a later date than the ticket booking window doesn't feel right / fair - it feels like it's taking advantage; of course, at the point at which the ticket window opened, you would have to have been a psychic to realise that Reading to Wembly would be a popular journey that day.

As I read it, the difference in price for an adult in ^6.15 - significant for some, but hardly massive compared to the cost of match entry, the rest of the travel, beer among the way, etc. ... and I suspect that the discount of that amount is still available to Two together and Networker Card holders - i.e. many regular leisure rail travellers?

GetReading mentions 3 or 4 people getting a discount.   Out of date, perhaps; Groupsave is now three or more (when it's available)!

GroupSave is for groups to travel together by rail and is there to attract people from other modes.

Times when groups are likely to want to travel together? Major events.

London Midland are not barring GroupSave on Sunday when there will be Aston Villa fans heading to Wembley. And its a Sunday also with a reduced service, although London Midland are adding additional stops at Wembley Central.

Chiltern also aren't barring their group travel products. Chiltern are also laying on an extra 12,000 seats.

So, London Midland and Chiltern are keen for the business. FGW are just keen for the money. That ^6 difference per person could mean the difference between taking the train with FGW or using another operator (SWT from Reading will be valid for GroupSave) or mode.

GroupSave is always barred for the Exeter Chiefs home games, but not Exeter City...
And always all stations to SJP - EXM inclusive, so includes groups not going anywhere near the rugby.
Yet the trains are still overcrowded.

Quite right (Fellow) Janner! If only Argyle/Albion had crowds big enough to worry about it!!!  ;D

FGW is the only long distance operator to participate in GroupSave, its totally voluntary.
Abellio Greater Anglia, c2c, Chiltern, FGW, Gatwick Express, Great Northern, London Midland, Overground, ScotRail. South West Trains, Southeastern, Southern, Stansted Express and Thameslink participate.

Its the only way they have of discouraging passengers from travelling, they can't really win.  Sell cheaper tickets and they'll be accused of overselling trains and leaving people behind, plus they must have concerns about the signalling system failing too.

The company haven't got the spare carriages to strengthen many services because they are used intensively during the week.  The Turbo fleet is the most intensively used in the country.  A few sit on the depot at the weekend basically because there is only enough mileage to get them through a working week.  Use them at the weekend and they'll have to short form more trains in the weekday peak   
Trains are diagrammed based on there mileage in order to stagger the maintenance requirements.

Groupsave is a SPECIAL OFFER to shift seats in the QUIET off-peak periods.

This is not a quiet period & I fully support the TOC. Anytime they'd be busier than normal, they remove Groupsave, not simply for this.

Lucky those that got in early, I say. Special Offers can be removed at any time.

^6 saving? They'll spend more than that on a programme/beer/pies/etc

Very mean spirited, money grubbing and hardly likely to encourage people to leave the car at home - SWT don't seem to have a problem with Groupsave to Twickenham on match days as alluded to earlier..........but in all honesty with the current daily crap level of service there is no way I would chance travelling by FGW train to any important event, it's bad enough chewing my fingernails hoping they will get me to and from work!!!

I think I'll leave a comment on the Get Reading article pointing out where the FGW GroupSave fares for this Saturday can be had.

I'm a Reading fan (sort of!) and would love the chance to see them play at Wembley but I wonder how forum members would feel if the service they were travelling on as a non-football fan was overrun with football fans who had been attracted by cheap travel deals?

I guess it is called supply and demand :)

Chiltern has chosen to make their morning trains dry for the Villa game, so they're all threatening to go with Virgin....

"Overrun" is probably a bit strong but if there was "overcrowding" (which I think we are all used to!!!) I'd accept the fact that there is a major sporting event going on at Wembley and plan my journey accordingly, I am more a fan of the oval ball myself (Plymouth Argyle too of course!) and I think sports fans have as much right to use trains on the same terms as anyone else?

FGW have a huge footprint in Reading and you would have thought that they might capitalise on this to generate publicity and goodwill for their brand, perhaps by running a couple of "football specials".........increase supply in response to demand?

I don't buy that there are absolutely no trains available to service this on a Saturday....I would have thought additional maintenance could have been fitted in around the Easter "shutdown", or is this too joined up for FGW?

Sell Groupsave but only for non-stop football specials that won't appear in the public timetable? I'm sure full trains would cover (or more than) costs - that'd have my vote!

That sounds like a runner!

.........I seem to recall in the (not too) distant past when there were "football special" trains that the clubs involved would be allocated the tickets to sell on behalf of the train operator? ...........or would that have been chartered trains perhaps?

That sounds like a charter to me

Last season Exeter Chief's average attendance was 9737. Exeter City average attendance last season was 3886.
Exeter Chief attendance figures are up this season, match on match by 11%. Exeter City on the other hand "are concerned" by falling attendances. This perhaps answers why Chief's have restrictions but City don't.

(full) Ticket prices are ^25-30 at Chiefs and ^20-27 at City and that's comparing top 4 premiership against mid table fourth tier. Chiefs offer heavily discounted tickets to local clubs if they are expecting a lower attendance, yet City seem to offer no incentive to get local club members in when they have low attendances- They are only filling about 35-40% capacity compared to Chiefs between 80-90% capacity.
Exeter Chiefs are one of only 4 premiership teams that turned a profit last year and have an excellent business model from what I have seen

Isn't there a capacity problem re: the Chiefs in that Digby and Sowton station can only take short trains?

When I've been on match day the services have been 2 x 143.

A friend in train planning sent me some diagrams and I have simplified. Remember this is the Plan, which can be deviated by the Control team, if faults, failures or other issues arise. But this is what the depot and crew will work too, unless otherwise instructed.


All services have been strengthend where ever possible. Due to planned engineering, only 2 stopping services are in operation between RDG & PAD. As a result Bedwyn Services are also Calling Maidenhead.
However Twyford don't get any extra trains :(

Departures from RDG to PAD
1A04 0811 HST
1K31 0822 3 Car
1L08 0827 HST
2P31 0829 5 Car
1P24 0831 4 Car
1A75 0851 HST
1L14 0856 HST
2P34 0859 5 Car
1P26 0901 HST
1A07 0912 HST
1K41 0921 3 Car
1P27 0923 4 Car
2P36 0929 5 Car
1A76 0944 HST
1L24 0952 HST
1P31 0955 HST
2P38 0959 3 Car
1A09 1000 HST
1K45 1020 3 Car
1P35 1027 6 Car
2P40 1029 5 Car
1L28 1031 HST
1A77 1050 HST
1L34 1059 HST
2P42 1100 3 Car
1P37 1104 HST
1A11 1108 HST
1K49 1121 3 Car
1P39 1127 5 Car
2P44 1129 5 Car
1A78 1150 HST
2P46 1159 5 Car
1L42 1158 HST
1A13 1203 HST
1P40 1207 5 Car
1K53 1219 3 Car
1P41 1224 5 Car
2P48 1229 5 Car
1A80 1253 HST
2P50 1259 5 Car
1L48 1259 HST
1P43 1303 6 Car
1A15 1308 HST
1A81 1321 HST
1P45 1324 3 Car
2P52 1329 5 Car
1K61 1351 3 Car
1P47 1354 4 Car
1L52 1357 HST
2P54 1359 3 Car
1A17 1406 HST
1P49 1425 5 Car

Hurrah FGW for strengthening wherever possible.

Yah boo FGW for not allowing GroupSave on those strengthened services.

Continued (thought it was a 3pm kick off, but its 520pm)

2P56 1429 3 Car
1A82 1429 HST
1A83 1453 HST
1P51 1456 HST
2P58 1500 5 Car
1L55 1459 HST
1A19 1505 HST
1K67 1520 3 Car
1P53 1525 HST
2P60 1528 3 Car
1A85 1551 HST

To be honest its just a normal Saturday Service when only a two track railway....

Barring Groupsave is the right thing to do, but in reality football fans will still travel so is a pointless exercise, and all that happens is FGW make more money, which is naughty!!!

Just about to do a return capacity guide, and I have so far noticed one additional Special Train!!!!

Naughty? Or calculated decision?  :-X ???

Homeward Bound PAD-RDG

1D71 1917 5 Car
2N74 1925 5 Car
1B89 1930 HST
1W73 1942 3 Car
2N78 1955 5 Car
1C96 2000 HST
1C31 2006 HST
1D75 2018 5 Car
2N80 2025 3 Car
1B91 2045 HST
1D77 2057 3 Car
2N82 2057 3 Car
1C32 2106 HST
2R83 2112 3 Car
1D79 2118 6 Car
1Z93 2128 6 Car (ADDITONAL SERVICE Calls MAI & RDG ONLY)
2N86 2142 5 Car
1W81 2143 5 Car
1B94 2200 HST
1C33 2206 HST
2R87 2212 5 Car
1D83 2218 4 Car
2N90 2243 5 Car
1D85 2248 6 Car
2N92 2320 5 Car
1C36 2330 HST
1D87 2333 5 Car

I think getting everyone home is going to be much more of a challenge, less trains, everyone wants to go at same time, and some shorter key services.......

After this time train to Maidenhead and buses to Reading....lets hope most people have travelled by then, or chaos could take place late at Maidenhead....or more chaos than most other Saturday evenings...

Digby & Sowton station will quite happily accommodate 4-car DMUs with some room still to spare; I think the usable platform length is just over 100m.

A 1720 kick off will finish at the very earlier 1905 if no injury time, exactly 15 mins break at half time. The 1917 and probably a couple after that looks unrealistic, 12 minutes to exit stadium and get from Wembley to Paddington.

The game may also be subject to extra time which will mean a finish no earlier than 1945, and the a potential penalty shoot out, probably adding another 15-20 minutes.

DIG is only allowed to accommodate 4 or fewer coach trains for some reason. The platform is 109m long, and shorter platforms don't have a similar embargo.


The only other time GSVs are barred down here seems to be Argyle v City.

Of course FGW also bar GSVs for games at the Millennium Stadium, Cheltenham, Glastonbury etc...

Why on earth is it 'naughty'?.....^6 is all the saving. less than two pints of beer. But that's not the point. Groupsave is an offer to fill seats when the demand *IS NOT* there. The demand is definitely there, and as you rightly observe, there is limited services to get pax home. I really don't see any issue here. TfL aren't dropping prices within London are they?!!

ChrisB - I totally agree with you. If, conversely, FGW put the prices up above normal on such a day then I could understand this being cause for complaint.  If you look at budget hotels near major sporting/entertainment venues in comparison it is common practise for them to put their prices up when a big event is on. As a customer you then have two choices if you want a room - take it or leave it.

Groupsave isn't marketed as an advanced purchase ticket - it's sold as something that you can buy right before you travel, or on the train if you join at a station without a working TVM or ticket office. And it's not marketed as a ticket with a quota system in any way.  

In my personal view, it's not very clever - perhaps "naughty" - to have a groupsave available, for sale, purchasable in advance for (for example) arriving into London on next Saturday afternoon and then after the tickets have been bought by some people to add an extra restriction.  If there were groupsave  quotas like there are advance purchase quotas, which can be changed at any time and it's well known that they exist, then it would be perfectly expected that quotas would have run out quickly or have been changed.

With GroupSave as a whole, I'm happy that it exists - it's not the fantastic bargain it used to be, but then in the summer of 2011 a group of 4 adults and 4 children could travel from my local station to the seaside and back for the dat for 36 pounds; it was fantastically helpful in terms of our marketing test for the TransWilts, but it could hardly have paid the cost of running the train - even though it was full and standing

The extra platform length could not be used anyway, Lympstone Village's platform is only 90 metres long, so that would need extending first - or trains would not be able to call there whilst running longer trains (if it was allowed)

Theyu can't add an extra restriction *after* they have been bought - it's illegal, and they haven't.

Demand is there on Sunday, yet London Midland and Chiltern haven't barred group products.

What has TfL got to do with the price of fish?

I agree. But they have offered a ticket for sale, without restriction and people are told:

So you see the ticket you want is available either way, look on line, but don't buy it because you're not sure whether Colin's mum is going to be able to come along, and you don't know whether to but for 4 or 5 people.  Joy of joy, Bessie (that's Colin's Mum) is well enough, but when you get to the station you find it's not after all available on the day ... even though there was no quota, no statement that it might change (in fact you were told you could buy on the day), it turns out that it's been changed and you can't.

Colin then remembers that comment on the local paper's website about the restriction not being applied to online bookings and buys the tickets via his phone and collects them from the TVM.  :P ;) ;D

Tickets strictly speaking still won't be valid though as according to the Groupsave Calendar (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/48462.aspx) ("holders of GroupSave discounted tickets cannot travel if a restriction is shown below").

I presume the concession of allowing these should only apply to tickets bought before the date was added to the calendar. Of course there isn't an easy way of knowing this ...

Chiltern & LM can choose to offer or not - as can FGW. It's an *offer* not a contracted right.

The ticket buying process online doesn't link to or mention the GroupSave calendar in the T&Cs. Therefore it's a hidden term and contractually unenforceable.

Thanks to Insider for the really useful info on the RDG-PAD (and return) movements on Sat.

I will be travelling into London and out (for other reasons, although hoping to catch the game in a hostelry if possible),
and was a bit concerned about how busy it might be, especially the evening return.

Good to see that hopefully there is lots of frequency and capacity during the period I am likely to be travelling  :)

So has anyone tried Groupwise tickets on a Friday afternoon to Cornwall then if the calendar is unenforceable? Or are these properly not sold?

EDIT - the calendar is linked to on ticket sales sites under the terms of the ticket. ("Please refer to the National Rail Group Save Calendar for details of exclusions and restrictions."). Really though they should have been pulled off sale properly.

Back in 1999 I organised a rugby tour from Buckinghamshire to Plymouth - we travelled RDG-PLY on the Friday before the May Bank Holiday and returned on the Bank Holiday Monday, we decided to travel by train as the cost of a coach would have been horrendous - there were 43 of us and FGW bent over backwards to accomodate us, despite it being a very busy period - the only stipulation was that they would identify the trains for us to travel on but this wasn't a problem, mid morning both ways.....everyone behaved themselves, we got a fantastic group rate and even a refund for a couple of people that couldn't travel.

Considering the mean spirited approach to this issue on Sunday with people travelling to Wembley I am left to contemplate how times, and attitudes to customers have changed.

There will be a queuing system in place at Reading for everyone going to London on Saturday in order to control boarding numbers. The north side ticket office will be closed to make room for the queuing system. Only the main ticket office at the south end will be open.

There will be no system in place at Paddington in the evening.

I'm coming up from Exeter to watch the game with my family. Can't wait!

Where's that info? I can't find such wording using FGW's booking engines, either desktop or app.

So - you buy a ticket from the South side ticket office/machines (where I guess you'll also need a queuing system?)

How will they then reach the North side queuing system? From outside the station via subway or across the overbridge within?

It appears if you click on the orangey-red 'G' symbol of Group Save on the desk top in the ticket description. Fairly obscure ...

Looks as if they have been fiddling with it as for some ticket types now the only valid trains that list are to Waterloo. I guess the rest will follow.

Can't find any links to the GroupSave calendar using the app. Currently all trains with all ticket types showing GroupSave as valid on that.

Agree that the link should be more prominent on the desktop site. A reactive pop-up box is what's needed not that small red 'G' which can be missed unless you actually scroll your pointer over it.

Don't think the arrangements for groups of ten or more have changed much since then have they?
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Ticket-Types/Group-Travel

....apologies if this has already been posted;

http://www.aloksharma.co.uk/content/sharma-welcomes-first-great-western-response-honour-groupsave-tickets-sold-reading-fc-fans

Sounds like Hopwood is owning up to (another) communication SNAFU

Local MP getting involved?! There must be an election coming up!

....candidate at the moment, there are no MPs!

To be fair Alok is always pretty much on the ball when it comes to challenging FGW.

Oh you cynic sprinterguard (my thoughts exactly)

Shows really that no appropriate FGW person follows football, or specifically the FA Cup.

Well as expected thousands are trying to travel and with a little bit of disruption (earlier in Didcot area) its not a pretty sight......

Oh missed another additional train.... 22:28 Maidenhead & Reading ONLY formed of HST

FGW have admitted internally that they meseed up on barring Group Save between Reading and London today.


Can still be bought online at this very moment.

Extra time. so has shortened this list. I've assumed 30 mins to get from Wembley to Paddington. The earliest the game will now finish is 1950

30 mins Wembley - PAD  v optimistic.

Police said earliest arrivals at RDG (where I'm staying tonight, lucky me!) was 2100

I was on the 2330 PAD-RDG (and onwards to BTM) HST - rammed!

The train I took up in the morning, the 1001 from THA, was full and standing at RDG, and then made an extra call at MAI, where it became full and squeezed with some left behind, I think.

Some pretty grim journeys home judging by reports after a disappointing result for the Royals - apparently train faults reduced the already inadequate capacity in the evening so things got rather cosy - would be interested in how the queuing system worked at Reading in the morning?

I was on 1D77. Left rammed with people being directed to 1C32 for at least five minutes before departure. Could see 1B91 leaving with a rammed first class, possibly either declassified officially or by 'passenger action'.

After Slough it was merely full; a bit under half full after Reading and about a quarter full after I left at Didcot.

I heard a couple of people discussing the queuing system favourably and questioning why there wasn't a similar action at Paddington to share the load, even if this meant a bit of wait (whether it would have worked out that way if there had been one is a different matter). Certainly when I went to London in the early afternoon there seemed to have been a separate grouping organised to get in the 4 carriage turbo I was in compared with the HST on the adjacent platform, meaning it went full rather than crammed.

Queueing system at Paddington would have made sense - they do it for Glastonbury every year......football fans may perhaps not be so cooperative though?

Anyone who has experienced post rugby queuing at Cardiff Central on a cold night would not relish the prospect however!!!

There was a queuing system in operation at Paddington for Bristol City fans following last month's Johnstone's Paint Trophy final.

It seemed to work fine from my experience there and there was a larger travelling following for Bristol City than Reading would have had yesterday.