Great Western Coffee Shop

Morning all

I was under the impression (possibly wrongly) that a super off-peak ticket could be excessed to an off-peak ticket on board (even if there was an opportunity to do so beforehand).

However, reading this FGW webpage https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Changing-my-ticket it says "To change to a different time period, buy an upgrade before you travel, or if that is not possible, on-board."

It's always best to try to excess a time restricted walk-up ticket before you board, but there should be no penalty for doing so on board.

The ultimate arbiter of what is, and isn't allowed, is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf#page=9). That says:


I've highlighted the relevant text for the scenario outlined in the OP.

Of course, at barriered stations, you have no right of boarding if you're informed by barrier staff that you need to visit the ticket office first. Nothing quoted above allows you guaranteed access to the train if you can upgrade before boarding. (Nothing stops you either, unless its physical, like a barrier or staff member.)

Cheers BNM, I had read that NRCoC text, but not "read" it properly. Your highlighted sections are unambiguous.

Further down condition 12 (I've quoted that whole paragraph which included the first sentence you mentioned above):


There's that last sentence (highlighted) which makes it a bit unclear to me. AIUI, that last sentence is referring to sitting in first class with a standard ticket and I can understand getting a PF for that (unless e.g. weekend first is available), but it's said in the same breath (paragraph) as the SOP/OP/Anytime upgrade.

Yeah... like a certain incident at Paddington in which I hope BNM will get satisfaction eventually ;)

"This rule does not apply"...I read that as the whole rule/paragraph, so your upgrade too.

There are two separate 'rules' mentioned in that last paragraph. One about excessing Off Peak/Super Off Peak and another about upgrading to 1st Class.

The final sentence says 'this rule' and not 'these rules' so must refer to the preceding rule about 1st Class. It can't possibly be referring to the rule about excessing Off Peak/Super Off Peak as Penalty Fares should not be issued in circumstances where a ticket is not valid merely because of a time restriction.

From the Penalty Fares Rules (https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf#page=12):


Besides which, the earlier text of condition 12 from the NRCoC is quite clear in mentioning if,


Note that bit about 'the train you are travelling in'

.
I don't. For the reasons given. Also changing a Super Off Peak/Off Peak to an Off Peak/Anytime is an excess not an upgrade.

As for what barrier staff say, they shouldn't overrule the National Rail Conditions of Carriage but can and do make things up as they go along. So yes, if there's time, and for an easy life, purchase your excess before boarding.

Ok, agreed, fair point. That piece must refer to the 1st upgrade only.

There still is nothing saying that you are 'entitled' to board without upgrading beforehand. IF you are aboard, then it does entitle you to upgrade on board with no penalty to the cheapest fare that allows travel on the train you are on.

But nothing to say you can refuse a request to upgrade before boarding if one is made.

Yes, there is nothing to say that a request to excess on board, made to a gateline staffer, will be honoured. Luck of the draw there.

If it's close to departure and the service you intend to board has a Conductor/TM then I think they should let you board. I can understand them refusing if you intend to board a DOO service, although a lack of facilities to excess on board is not the fault of the passenger.

In summary for this type of excess:

Excess before boarding if at all possible. If it isn't possible then there is no penalty for doing so on board.

I agree with the previous points mentioned. IMO the NRCoC would benefit from splitting the last bit about 1st class into a new paragraph and the FGW page from BNMs wording above.

Add to that - "but don't be surprised if you are refused boarding if you turn up late as there is no entitlement to do so":
[/quote]

I take full responsibility for your Freudian slip of 'upgrade' ChrisB as I started it  :)

I have seen SWT guards issuing these upgr... excesses on board from Waterloo without question, so these passengers must have got through the gateline without the ticket being rejected.

Not the case at Paddington though as we know (i.e. gatelines opening, can't comment about the ease of obtaining the excess if you managed to get on board).

...and of course having queued up and obtained the excess, your intended service may have left. As I say though, doesn't seem to be a problem over at Waterloo.

I've regularly been guided towards to ticket office when my off-peak ticker has been refused at the barriers there, rather than allowed on board

Your dodgy ticker will be even worse once you've run to the ticket office and back to your service ('Allo 'Allo style) ;)

ker-tish!

I have flagged this to FGW before and now escalated to the top. As this ruling about designated penalty fares zone is a complete contradiction to the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 as issued by the Strategic Rail Authoirty at the time. This exact conversation played out on FGW Facebook Page and despite assurances from revenue teams I did not receive a response.

Whilst the ruling doesn't confirm that staff can or cannot prevent boarding with incorrect tickets. I would say that the ability to do so without penalty means that staff cannot prevent you from boarding at the gateline.

Sorry but "you need to do it at the ticket office" is not applicable AFAIAC. You can excess onboard without payment. If you have that right, you should be able exercise your right.

All in all a very ugly grey area which is a complete mess. But both myself and BNM have had trouble with arguing what is and isn't valid to gateline staff. I have also had the same with Revenue Protection on GA and Southern. GA again on validity of time of day restrictions. Southern with TOC specific tickets. Like Southern Only tickets on Gatwick Express. Which are valid under the terms in NRCoC

"You can..." is NOT "You are entitled...." it's "you are able to"

There is nothing in NRCoC that entitles you to pass a barrier with an incorrect ticket

I typed that from my Galaxy S5 so forgive my perhaps poor explanation of my example.

I was elating to the fact that the rule does not prohibit excessing onboard. But on the flip side of this it does not say "You are entitled to" as you state.

My argument to that if stopped by a gate line member would be. I know it's not valid for this train, so I would like to excess onboard.

If told you must buy beforehand and I had a train to catch leaving in less than 5 minutes. Then I would politely say that I can excess onboard without penalty, so that is what I will do.

Not having staff onboard the train or barriers at the end of the journey is hardly the passengers fault. But if they are made aware that it is not valid for this train and make no subsequent effort to rectify this, then this is clear avoidance of paying the Anytime Upgrade Excess.

Bearing in mind particularly for Paddington station, the platforms for trains are often announced with as little as 5 minutes notice. Making someone miss a train so as to purchase their excess before boarding in my view is unreasonable. It may also create the crazy situation where the customer then goes to the ticket office, pays the excess for a train. But then finds out their original [Super] Off Peak is valid for the next train they end up getting on.

I think excessing should be allowed onboard for the pure reason that once onboard, you know you are on the more restricted train. Whereas going off to buy an excess doesn't dictate the train you will then be able to use.

Point me to where it says ypu are entitled to travel at the time you choose without boarding with a valid ticket...,

Point to me where it say you aren't entitled to do so...

By needing to PAY the correct fare in order to travel

If you haven't paid the correct fare by dint of a time restriction you can be excessed without penalty. Nowhere does it say you can be denied travel before the excess is purchased.

Whilst it doesn't say it anywhere, I'll concede the reality is you may well be denied access to the train of your choice.

Because of condition 12 of the NRCoC I'd argue that a Super Off Peak/Off Peak ticket is valid for boarding a service on which only Off Peak/Anytime tickets are valid. You can board and pay the excess when requested.

That's only an unqualified opinion of course. Being denied boarding when the express intention is to excess on board has, as far as I'm aware, not been legally challenged, so there is no precedent.

Like so many things on the railway to do with ticketing we don't have black and white, only varying shades of grey. However, the vast majority of stations are unbarriered, so the potential confrontation/difference of opinion in this particular hypothetical scenario is unlikely to even occur.

As I see it, you are purchasing a ride on a train. There is no right to travel, period, unless the T&Cs allow you to.

If you manage to board at an un-barriered station, the T&Cs cover what happens & therefore permit you aboard. If you get stopped at a barrier, it is clear that you require a valid ticket to pass those barriers. The T&Cs do NOT permit otherwise - and YES, they need to say so as there is no right to board/travel otherwise.

I've been watching this thread with some interest - and with my pedant's hat on with all the rules and suggestions.    The word "barrier"/"barriers" doesn't occur at all in the Conditions of Carriage ...

Personally, I quite often travel back from London on the return half of a super-offpeak ticket, using the 20:45 and changing onto the Melksham and Trowbridge bus (the one that accepts train tickets) at Chippenham Railway Station.    However, on a minority of occasions I arrive at Paddington earlier - sometimes in time (and sometimes JUST in time) for the 19:00 which offers an arrival in Melksham over 2 hours ahead of the 20:45, but is Offpeak and not Superoffpeak.    Ticket held, though, superoffpeak as most of the time I'm later and there's no point in spending more than I have to.

Coming off the Hammersmith and City, there is - sometimes - a man with an Avantix who can do the excess.  Sometimes two - and I've been pointed to the second one ("I don't know how do do that") on one occasion, and offered three different upgrade fares, all wrong.   I have also gone through to the ticket office to get an upgrade, queued, and just caught the train ... and on one occasion I didn't even try seeing the queue length and knowing I would not have completed the transaction before the train left.

IF it's valid to upgrade on the train (I'm not restarting the argument), the necessity for allowing that would seem to be the lack of a quick and simple way to upgrade at the station ... I've never been told that it can be done on the train, but then I've never been told that it can't, and I've never tried.  Perhaps the proper solution is not to clarify the rules, but rather to move to a system where such upgrades can be quickly and simply purchased prior to passing the barrier?

If fraud were non-existant, I'm sure upgrades can & would be made available from the ticket machines. You input your ticket held details & it upgrades you by issuing your excess.

BUT the passenger is it's own worst enemy & there would unfortunately bne very few paying the correct excess.


The reason for allowing it on the train is the often lack of a ticket office (whether not present or often out of opening hours)

But there are very few paying the correct excess anyway as AvantixMan has trouble getting it right too  ;D ;D

fair comment!

\of course when we get to the situation where tickets are held on smart cards (as they are in Netherlands) then a machine should be able to read the ticket and do the upgrade.  At least they could if we had machines that could tell you what ticket you needed in the first place.

But even if you weren't allowed to excess on board generally, if the ticket office was closed you'd have to be offered the excess on board anyway as it would be the first opportunity to purchase. Allowing change of route and time restriction based excess fares to be obtained on board at no penalty under all circumstances is a special exception, there must be some reason other than the lack of a ticket office. Otherwise the rule would be the same as that generally relating to buying before you board, where there are no ticket issuing facilities available before boarding you may purchase at the first available opportunity. A possible reason could be that Off Peak restriction are complex, and it easy for people to be confused. It wouldn't be fair to penalise passengers where there has been confusion, so they are only asked to pay the correct fare due.