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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: JayMac on March 02, 2015, 16:32:12



Title: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: JayMac on March 02, 2015, 16:32:12
An interesting BBC News Magazine (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31621300) article coming on the back of the Inter-City East Coast franchise returning to private hands.

It's a long article so I'll not quote it in full. The full article can be read at the following link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31621300

Quote
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/79307000/jpg/_79307307_hqg3wagj.jpg)

This weekend East Coast main line train services passed from public to private hands. But is it realistic to talk about the rail network ever being renationalised?

A rare experiment in public ownership has come to an end.

Supporters say that Directly Operated Railways, a state-run body, rescued the East Coast main line after the collapse in 2009 of National Express's franchise. The firm had been unable to deliver promised revenues to the government.

Directly Operated Railways handed a billion pounds in premiums to the Treasury during its period in charge.

But after the government decided to return the franchise to private hands a bidding process in November gave it to a consortium of Virgin and Stagecoach - called Intercity Railways.

The unions and Labour have argued the line - which runs between London and Edinburgh - should have been kept in public hands.

Labour has suggested that it will review the franchising system and allow the public sector to bid to operate rail lines. The Conservatives say that would be unworkable.

John Major's Conservative government split up British Rail into a series of franchises 20 years ago.

Since then the number of passengers travelling on the railways has doubled. But the public subsidy has risen.

A YouGov survey in May 2014 suggested that the public supported renationalisation by a margin of 60% - 20%.

But how easy would it be to renationalise the railways?

Not difficult at all, says James Abbott, editor of Modern Railways. Network Rail, which manages the track, is already in public hands. The train companies have time-limited franchises. Once these have expired the government could get them back at no cost to the taxpayer.

Most of the franchises expire during the next parliament, which runs until May 2020. The exceptions are East Coast (2023), Thameslink, Southern, Great Northern, Chiltern (2021), and Essex Thameside - branded C2C - (2029).

If a government wanted the process to be quicker - or to avoid a mixed system - it's hard to say how much buying out the private sector would cost.

Mark Smith, who used to set fares at the Department of Transport and now runs the website The Man in Seat 61, says you could estimate what payouts would be needed by looking at each franchise's annual profits and then multiplying by how many years are left on it.

The rail industry says about ^250m is made in profits by the franchisees each year, about 3% of turnover.

There's also the question of UK and European Union legislation.

The Railways Act 1993 states that the public sector cannot bid for franchises. Either a totally new act would be needed to oversee nationalisation or there would need to be significant amendments to the existing act.

The EU says it wants to open up national freight and passenger markets to cross-border competition.

There are rules stating that the track and rolling stock must be managed separately - an attempt to allow free competition, although state-owned railways across the continent use holding companies in order to abide by this. A new European Commission strategy - the Fourth Railway package - to be voted on this summer by the European parliament could further pressure member states to open state-owned railways to private competition.

None of these hurdles are insurmountable, says Ian Taylor, author of Rebuilding Rail, a 2012 report for the trade unions. "The biggest obstacle to renationalising the railways is the prevailing dogma - the assumption that marketisation and competition must be best."

So what do the political parties say? Labour's official policy is to allow the state to bid for franchises. But in recent weeks new shadow transport secretary Michael Dugher has gone further.

"The public sector will be running sections of our rail network as soon as we can do that," he told the New Statesman recently. He ruled out a return to British Rail but said a Labour government would put "the whole franchising system as it stands today in the bin".

The Conservatives are against nationalising the network. A spokesman says that franchising has led to the most improved railways in the EU with record levels of investment, passenger numbers doubling and punctuality rates at record levels. The state ownership of East Coast main line shows that, he argues.

"While most operators spend more per journey than they get from passengers, East Coast hasn't. East Coast charged passengers on average more per journey, while running older, cheaper trains than on the privately run West Coast line. The new East Coast franchise will turn that round, bringing new services, new investment, more seats, state-of-the-art new trains and faster journeys - and it will return more to the taxpayer too."




Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: JayMac on March 02, 2015, 19:56:12
From the guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/mar/02/repainted-and-rebranded-virgin-trains-east-coast-service-leaves-london?)

Quote
Repainted and rebranded ^ Virgin Trains East Coast service leaves London

The reprivatised rail service embarked on its first journey on Monday but debate still rages whether it is best in private or public hands

(http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/9ff9593aac7adf59eafd730d42f8727f1be577fb/0_0_3999_2400/1000.jpg)

The first repainted, rebranded and reprivatised Virgin Trains East Coast train left London Kings Cross station for Edinburgh at 11am on Monday, its new red-and-white livery signalling ^ according to one set of politicians and businessmen ^ a fresh chapter and better services for passengers.

After five years of public ownership, that view is disputed by unions and Labour, for whom East Coast became totemic in the argument over who should run rail transport.

Successful and profitable but with its financial returns going to the government rather than shareholders, East Coast^s significance was not lost on the coalition. They put it at the top of the franchising queue ahead of the general election.

However, the transport minister Claire Perry, at Kings Cross for Virgin TEC^s official launch, insists: ^It^s been a whipped-up political controversy.^ Labour had time in power to change the system had it wished, she says, adding that East Coast under the state-owned Directly Operated Railways (DOR) was never intended to be an ongoing operating company. ^It wasn^t able to make the investments like the ^140m of private sector money that will flow into this franchise.^

Over its eight-year franchise the new operator ^ a joint venture 90% owned by Stagecoach but with Richard Branson^s licensed brand ^ will bring more direct links to the capital and cut journey times after a new fleet of trains is introduced from 2019. The consortium will invest ^140m, partly spent on refurbishing the existing fleet and improving stations.

It should also pay ^3.3bn in premiums to the Treasury, says David Horne, managing director of Virgin Trains East Coast. ^When you look at [DOR] paying ^1bn in five years, that^s going to be a good deal for taxpayers.^

So what exactly is the magic touch that a private operator brings to make this all possible? On the first rebranded train on Monday, Horne says: ^It^s a commitment to customer service.^ If that concept seems nebulous, Horne cites a new ^3m ^customers and communities^ fund for investments and improvements along the line. ^We^re up for anything. When you bid for a franchise you^re looking forward to think what are customers going to need, but this fund gives a way to do different things that we haven^t thought of that customers may suggest.^

The remaining train exteriors will be retouched by August; addressing the ageing interiors will take longer, with refurbishment starting over two years from August. The franchise will include 65 new trains in 2019 under the Intercity Express Programme, ordered by the government from Hitachi, part-manufactured in the new Newton Aycliffe assembly plant in Co Durham. That replacement fleet means 50% more seats and a cut in journey times from London to Edinburgh to four hours. Horne says his firm^s experience will help: ^Between them Stagecoach and Virgin have introduced more trains to the new network than any other operator.^

One key contention of private operators^ supporters is that their innovation and customer service has increased passenger numbers. Pressed for specifics, Perry says: ^There will be free Wi-Fi, customer offers. There will be Nectar points. When is the last time that you heard of good old British Rail offering any kind of customer incentives?^

Even if the political divide can be encapsulated in a supermarket loyalty programme, the management of East Coast under DOR claims to have ^relentlessly focused^ on customers (it did, in fact, operate a rewards points scheme). In a valedictory email to stakeholders last week Karen Boswell, the outgoing managing director, trumpeted a record that saw the company garner awards and plaudits. She notes: ^We developed a strong East Coast brand from scratch and we created a relentless focus on the customer throughout our business ^ and we^ve been able to achieve one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any franchised long-distance operator in the country.^

A second argument is that staff will benefit. Perry says: ^The staff on East Coast, I^ve talked to dozens of them, are really excited to be working with two very customer-facing brands.^

Horne adds: ^One member said he^d wished we^d taken over years ago, I certainly haven^t detected regret that they^re not working for DOR any more. Most of them are looking forward to working for us because we^re going to provide a lot of investment and opportunities for them in the future: we have plans to invest in customer service training and an overall plan to develop the businesses.^

Boswell also claims the support of staff in her email however: ^We made significant investments in our people and assets; and above all, we rekindled a company spirit amongst our people ... we^ve been able to achieve an employee engagement score that is virtually unparalleled in the rail industry.^

The last private operator to run the franchise was, briefly, National Express, which handed the keys to DOR in 2009 after failing to meet its payments as the financial crisis hit. Refranchising might finally consign the transport operator^s ignominious moment to history, although Dean Finch, the chief executive who joined in 2010, says: ^I don^t believe any journalist is going to let National Express forget that in my lifetime.^ He is, unsurprisingly, pro-privatisation: ^The private sector profit take is not taking out a large wedge of money. In return it has contributed a vast amount.^

Despite East Coast^s success as one of only two firms to make a net contribution to government coffers over the last two years, its payments exceeding its subsidy, Finch says: ^The reflections on improved service, and punctuality, are only part of the story. [Was] the government getting more back than it would have under the previous contract, more than a private sector operator would have? I don^t think so.^ Finch says that East Coast had always been a profitable line, with relatively low leasing costs because of the old rolling stock ^ making it ripe for any operator.

Now, says Horne: ^People here have looked at what Virgin have done on the West Coast line and are excited by the prospect of a similar transformation of services.^ The image he uses is ^a hotel on wheels^, adding: ^There are very few commuters on this line ^ if people are using it, it^s because they want to, we have to impress them.^

The reaction of staff and passengers at York station on Monday was more prosaic, with few changes yet visible to most except the Virgin stickers in the window, new staff badges and plastic Virgin windcheaters concealing old uniforms to keep out the snow showers.

One passenger had travelled down from the north-east, but declined to be named, saying: ^m leftwing so I^d rather they renationalised, but I^m going to get on the train whoever^s running it. I can^t imagine it will make any difference to the service, just the money will be going to different people.^ Some staff ^ especially on board ^ are hopeful for change; others say that the ownership was less of an issue for employees than politicians. One commented: ^A job^s a job ^ makes no difference, so long as we get paid at the end of the month.^

Labour has now pledged to legislate swiftly for rail reform, with Michael Dugher, the shadow transport secretary, describing the end of East Coast trains as ^a hammer blow for passengers, taxpayers and employees alike^.

Perry^s retort on Monday was firm: ^We don^t talk about having a public sector energy company or a public sector airline.^ With the once state-owned British Airways^ parent company IAG forecasting ^2.2bn in profits this year, the minister could, however, be on to something. She adds: ^d like to see the Labour party^s proposal, Dugher Airlines, which I^m sure is coming.^


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Electric train on March 02, 2015, 21:11:52
I think there is a case to allow DOR (or some fancy name) a UK Government Agency to bid for franchises and even with some routes lines which are subsidised to be given the concession to run them on the bases of a social operator; lets face it DB, Abirillo etc are all still quasi state companies, set up to get around the EU rules


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 03, 2015, 14:06:40
There are two main questions to be answered about the realism of re-creating BR. The first one is 'Is it feasible?' and the second one is 'Why?'

The answer to the first is 'Yes - of course'. Parliament can pass any Act it wishes, as long as it remains within the frameworks set down by the EU of which the UK is a member and other international agreements. If it doesn't it lays itself open to legal challenges.

The corollary to this answer is, however, another question: 'Which version of BR do you wish to re-create?'. The early British Transport Commission/Railway Executive model? The later British Transport Commission model? The early British Rail model or the sectorised British Rail model?

The world has changed significantly in the last 20 years - legally, politically, economically and technically. It would no longer be possible to re-create an exact duplicate of latter-day BR - which I assume is most people refer to when they talk about BR. (Incidentally this means that nobody under the age of 37 or 38 has any direct re-collection of what BR was - what they believe can only have come from hearsay).

The question 'Why?' is interesting. One common theme is that today's railways are more expensive than BR and they are overcrowded. BR in people's memories wasn't (so) crowded and fares were (apparently) lower - ergo, the solution is to turn the clock back. People see a golden past as recalled by John Betjemen's travelogues and in Edward Thomas' poem 'Adlestrop':

Yes, I remember Adlestrop -
The name, because one afternoon
Of heat the express-train drew up there
Unwontedly. It was late June


but he goes on to say

The steam hissed. Someone cleared his throat.
No one left and no one came
On the bare platform. What I saw
Was Adlestrop - only the name


Which is why one of the BRs closed such a lot of the railway.

There are obviously disadvantages in the present structure - but there are disadvantages in any structure. Structures, and even ultimate ownership, is often of secondary interest in the effectiveness of an organisation in the way it meets its goals. Management incentives, from the top down, are the deciding factor - and if the incentives and targets at the top level are confused then the results, under all headings - financial, customer satisfaction,  market share, profitability, safety and so on, will all be less than optimum.

Nationalised industries tended to be pulled in two directions - on the one side they were supposed to operate profitably 'taking one year with another' (Transport Act 1947) and at same time provide services to the public which even by the wildest stretches of the imagination could never make money.

Be careful for what you wish.



Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 03, 2015, 15:17:15
<pedantic point>

Lovely though it is to see Edward Thomas' poem quoted, I think it is fair to point out that the express train drew up 'unwontedly': it was an unscheduled stop, as we non-poets would say.

We wouldn't therefore necessarily have expected anyone to left or came on the bare platform.

</pedantic point>

Betjamin was worse; in one of his TV shows he referred to a chap returning to a signalbox with a staff in his hand as a 'porter' >:(


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: jdw.wor on March 03, 2015, 16:55:29
Pre-Beeching the country stations had Signalman/Porters. It was a quite common job


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: TonyK on March 03, 2015, 17:26:31
So why did National Excess fail where others succeeded? Could it just be that they weren't good at running railways?


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Electric train on March 03, 2015, 18:08:55
So why did National Excess fail where others succeeded? Could it just be that they weren't good at running railways?
They could not find where to put the air in the tyres  ;D ;D

NE did run the LTS quite successfully for while, I think they might have been removed a franchise bid by DfT out of spite (my personal opinion)

Network Rail is effectively Nationalised as a UK Government Agency although NR don't operate trains not even its own trains  ::)  :o


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 03, 2015, 20:20:57
So why did National Excess fail where others succeeded? Could it just be that they weren't good at running railways?

For a couple of years up to 2009 the National Express group was suffering internal wars in that one of its shareholders, the Spanish Cosmen family, did not want National Express to raise further capital and dilute their shareholding. This was finally resolved and at about the same time the chairman and CEO, one Richard Bowker, left to build railways in the Emirates.

NatEx group did not have the capital to continue funding the revenue shortfall being experience by NXEC and could not wait until the 'cap-and-collar' revenue support became available.

Bowker was also chairman and CEO of the Strategic Rail Authority until its demise. The SRA's only lasting achievements were an additional platform at Swindon and the re-doubling of some track in Cornwall.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 03, 2015, 21:01:13
I think there is a case to allow DOR (or some fancy name) a UK Government Agency to bid for franchises and even with some routes lines which are subsidised to be given the concession to run them on the bases of a social operator; lets face it DB, Abirillo etc are all still quasi state companies, set up to get around the EU rules

The argument that because DB, Abellio and the others are subsidiaries of nationalised organisations, then an East Coast Railways/DOR-type operation should also be allowed to bid is false. DB, Abellio and Co. are, without a doubt, nationalised in one form or another - but they are NOT organs of the UK Government. That is the decisive difference.

The issue is that if a UK Government owned or affiliated organisation bids for franchise or a concession and another department of the same UK Government also decides on the winner in such a competition then how does one know whether the selection process has been fair and above board? The DfT becomes judge, jury and executioner. Legal challenges would be inevitable.

The successful franchisee has to place a performance bond (as well as other bonds) to cover the costs of selecting a replacement in the case that it becomes insolvent during its tenure. These bonds are large, around the ^20 million mark, and a private bidder has to factor the costs of these bonds into his offer.

A UK-Government-backed operator cannot become insolvent (and DOR posted no such bond). Should a Government-backed operator also have to post a bond - and if so why? The very fact of this bond being unnecessary means that its bid will be cheaper than any private sector competitor.

Allowing a Government-backed Agency to bid for a franchise would only enrich the legal profession and ensure that the private sector would look for other areas in which it could invest its time, expertise and money. It would certainly not be in the railway industry - and the railway industry would be the poorer for it.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: onthecushions on March 03, 2015, 23:21:54
The argument that because DB, Abellio and the others are subsidiaries of nationalised organisations, then an East Coast Railways/DOR-type operation should also be allowed to bid is false. DB, Abellio and Co. are, without a doubt, nationalised in one form or another - but they are NOT organs of the UK Government. That is the decisive difference.


So the conclusion of the above is that state run train operators are more cost-effective than private ones.

We ought therefore either have DOR competing for all (including foreign) franchises or ban SNCF, DB, NS etc from tendering for UK operations.

The words goose, sauce and gander spring to mind.

OTC


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: tom m on March 04, 2015, 08:27:54
I assume that DOR has now been effectively wrapped up or merged into the new franchise. Even if DOR were allowed to bid for another franchise, surely the people behind DOR have now moved on or been placed elsewhere?


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Tim on March 04, 2015, 10:14:30
I suppose I am marginally in favour of renationalisation, but only because the current privatized system is nothing more than pretend capitalism.

The government decides on infrastructure investment, the government decides on rolling stock, the government decides on most of the timetable,  the government regulates the fares, the government micromanages much else - from deciding that stations should be barriered to signing off ticket office closures.  The ToC gets to choose its own livery (except in Scotland).  Hardly a recipe for unleashing the dynamic, innovating forces of capitalism is it, and that begs the question of what is the point of franchising the ToCs out.

It is no coincidence that in the freight sector where proper commercial risks are taken, and proper competition rules, productivity has shot up.  A huge amount of private investment has brought new equipment and through a combination of longer trains and more flexible working arrangements, the industry has become hugely more efficient.   

That ought to have been achievable on the passenger railway, but the cost of transporting a single passenger a single mile has remained on a plateaux.  As passenger numbers have risen, the cost base has risen in lock step with it and potential efficiencies have been squandered by crazy things like shortening trains (on XC for example). 


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Tim on March 04, 2015, 10:16:50
I assume that DOR has now been effectively wrapped up or merged into the new franchise. Even if DOR were allowed to bid for another franchise, surely the people behind DOR have now moved on or been placed elsewhere?

I think you are largely correct.  The DfT does however keep a core of people on standby so that DOR can be activated at short notice to take on the next failing TOC. 


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: paul7575 on March 04, 2015, 10:30:21
I assume that DOR has now been effectively wrapped up or merged into the new franchise. Even if DOR were allowed to bid for another franchise, surely the people behind DOR have now moved on or been placed elsewhere?

I think you are largely correct.  The DfT does however keep a core of people on standby so that DOR can be activated at short notice to take on the next failing TOC. 

AIUI the 'core of people on standby' is DOR, and East Coast was their operating subsidiary, and it is the latter that was 'bought' by Intercity Railways (Stagecoach/Virgin).

So DOR as a government holding company will continue to exist, and still employ that core of people, but they are now on standby, however AFAICT the people are in the private sector, not civil servants.

I don't think the oft repeated statement that the ECML franchise was 'operated by DOR' is strictly correct.  They were operated by East Coast Ltd, supervised by DOR.

Paul


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Tim on March 04, 2015, 10:43:29

AIUI the 'core of people on standby' is DOR, and East Coast was their operating subsidiary, and it is the latter that was 'bought' by Intercity Railways (Stagecoach/Virgin).

So DOR as a government holding company will continue to exist, and still employ that core of people, but they are now on standby, however AFAICT the people are in the private sector, not civil servants.

I don't think the oft repeated statement that the ECML franchise was 'operated by DOR' is strictly correct.  They were operated by East Coast Ltd, supervised by DOR.

Paul

Correct.  This might be out of date information, but I recall DfT tendering for a private firm to provide the DOR standby function.  I think Atkins had the contract at some point.  They may still do.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: ChrisB on March 04, 2015, 11:52:09
The issue is that if a UK Government owned or affiliated organisation bids for franchise or a concession and another department of the same UK Government also decides on the winner in such a competition then how does one know whether the selection process has been fair and above board? The DfT becomes judge, jury and executioner. Legal challenges would be inevitable.

The successful franchisee has to place a performance bond (as well as other bonds) to cover the costs of selecting a replacement in the case that it becomes insolvent during its tenure. These bonds are large, around the ^20 million mark, and a private bidder has to factor the costs of these bonds into his offer.

A UK-Government-backed operator cannot become insolvent (and DOR posted no such bond). Should a Government-backed operator also have to post a bond - and if so why?

Legally, it would have to....to obtain a level competitive playing field with the other bidders. Otherwise, the DfT would end up in court on unfair competition rules and lose.

So where does DOR get this bond from? Not from the Government/taxpayer, again, unfair competition - it would have to borrow it....I don't think overall there would be any cost saving. Take VTEC - to produce the franchise payments to the DfT of the size VTEC is / investment millions (and would need to be higher than VTEC to win the franchise) is going to cost DOR the same as Virgin/Stagecoach if it has to obtain this money in commercial borrowings.

Of course, the ultimate aim, certainly of the unions, is to get all franchises under DOR- then they go for overall collective bargaining again & we end up with more industrial action affecting more pax than currently.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 04, 2015, 15:02:07
The argument that because DB, Abellio and the others are subsidiaries of nationalised organisations, then an East Coast Railways/DOR-type operation should also be allowed to bid is false. DB, Abellio and Co. are, without a doubt, nationalised in one form or another - but they are NOT organs of the UK Government. That is the decisive difference.


So the conclusion of the above is that state run train operators are more cost-effective than private ones.

How does that follow? The part you snipped completes the story.

We ought therefore either have DOR competing for all (including foreign) franchises or ban SNCF, DB, NS etc from tendering for UK operations.

The words goose, sauce and gander spring to mind.

OTC

DOR was established by the DfT to fulfil the requirements under Section 30 of the Railways Act to secure the continued provision of passenger railway services in the UK should an existing franchise not be able to complete its full term. Its terms of reference do not extend to running railways in other countries - and I doubt very much whether a company directly owned by a UK government ministry would be allowed to operate in other countries. If it was wished that a 'nationalised' UK organisation were to compete for such contracts then another organisational form would be necessary.

But private UK organisations have bid for and won 'franchises' in other countries. For example it has recently been reported that National Express Rail has been awarded the rights to operate two routes in Nord-Rhein/Westfalen (Lines RE7 Krefeld-K^ln-Rheine and RB 48 Wuppertal-Solingen-Bonn) as well as the S-Bahn network in N^rnberg in Bavaria.

It's not a one way street.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: didcotdean on March 04, 2015, 16:04:42
Arriva Deutschland operated a number of rail services in Germany, which had to be divested when the parent was taken over by DB.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: onthecushions on March 05, 2015, 14:43:24

The reason why state run operators are likely to be more cost-effective franchise holders is mainly because they already understand how railways work and have the "network" access to skills etc, also because they have more sympathetic financial management with more understanding and acceptance of actual risks.

The rules of a game are those observed by all the other players, not just the UK, on its own. If Europe practices state-run franchise holdings then so must we. German success has a strong base in integration of state and industry. Where we have that (such as Rolls Royce Aero), then we also succeed and vice versa.

Have you seen 4064's nameplate in Reading Museum?

OTC



Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: ChrisB on March 05, 2015, 14:48:42

The reason why state run operators are likely to be more cost-effective franchise holders is mainly because they already understand how railways work and have the "network" access to skills etc,

Eh? Where in the UK will you find one of those? There isn't one (except DOR, with the limited staffing they have) - the experienced staff are all out at current franchisees, and would be poached from those current franchisees when they lose their franchises. So it's effectively pretty much the same staff.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Tim on March 05, 2015, 16:32:57

The reason why state run operators are likely to be more cost-effective franchise holders is mainly because they already understand how railways work and have the "network" access to skills etc, also because they have more sympathetic financial management with more understanding and acceptance of actual risks.


Isn't it also because they can borrow money cheaper?  Although maybe the TOCs shouldn't need to borrow much money because they are so thinly capitalised.  The serious borrowing is done by the ROSCOs, and it is scandalously stupid that we have the current situation where the government specifies the new rolling stock (think Intercity Express) and who should use it and then steps aside and gets a private firm to arrange finance for it.  Private firm then goes to bank and bank offers a private firm a higher rate of interest than it would offer to HMG. 


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: ChrisB on March 05, 2015, 16:44:03
Even with a Government cast-iron guarantee?


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 05, 2015, 19:24:20
Government cast iron can be very brittle. Especially if it is exposed to the stresses of a General Election.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: TonyK on March 05, 2015, 19:25:13

Isn't it also because they can borrow money cheaper?  Although maybe the TOCs shouldn't need to borrow much money because they are so thinly capitalised.  The serious borrowing is done by the ROSCOs, and it is scandalously stupid that we have the current situation where the government specifies the new rolling stock (think Intercity Express) and who should use it and then steps aside and gets a private firm to arrange finance for it.  Private firm then goes to bank and bank offers a private firm a higher rate of interest than it would offer to HMG. 

Nice work if you can get it, this ROSCO business. You are told what to buy, and who to lease it to. There is never any leftover stock. You can charge what you want, aiming for a return on investment well above the normal rates, because you can rely on the fiction that you need to recover the capital cost of the stock during the lifetime of the franchise, not over the lifetime of the asset. Dividing the cost of a train by the 15 years of a franchise gives double the return that dividing it by the 30-year life does, and you still have the train to rent to the next franchisee. After refurbishment no longer works, as should happen soon with Pacers, you can flog them to some emerging country overseas, where they will seem ultra-modern.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: JayMac on March 07, 2015, 02:00:58
After refurbishment no longer works, as should happen soon with Pacers, you can flog them to some emerging country overseas, where they will seem ultra-modern.

The pacer owner ROSCOs have already produced their glossy brochures to show that their 'assets' can be refreshed yet again to make them Equality Act and RVAR compliant. Sending them overseas is too much like hard work when UK PLC is still prepared to stump up for, and put up with, them.

I'd not be putting money on all the Class 14x fleet being retired from UK service by 31st December 2019.

Not forgetting of course that even if they aren't all modified by that date the Secretary of State has derogation powers to override EA and RVAR legislation if needs must...


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 07, 2015, 19:03:07

Isn't it also because they can borrow money cheaper?  Although maybe the TOCs shouldn't need to borrow much money because they are so thinly capitalised.  The serious borrowing is done by the ROSCOs, and it is scandalously stupid that we have the current situation where the government specifies the new rolling stock (think Intercity Express) and who should use it and then steps aside and gets a private firm to arrange finance for it.  Private firm then goes to bank and bank offers a private firm a higher rate of interest than it would offer to HMG. 

Nice work if you can get it, this ROSCO business. You are told what to buy, and who to lease it to. There is never any leftover stock. You can charge what you want, aiming for a return on investment well above the normal rates, because you can rely on the fiction that you need to recover the capital cost of the stock during the lifetime of the franchise, not over the lifetime of the asset. Dividing the cost of a train by the 15 years of a franchise gives double the return that dividing it by the 30-year life does, and you still have the train to rent to the next franchisee. After refurbishment no longer works, as should happen soon with Pacers, you can flog them to some emerging country overseas, where they will seem ultra-modern.

At the time of privatisation the decision to adopt a leasing structure for passenger rolling stock reflected trends in the transport industry generally (think aircraft leasing for example) and answered a long-standing criticism that public sector spending restrictions had limited investment in rolling stock. There were three main reasons underpinning the decision:

  • separating train ownership from operations would drastically reduce the barriers to entry facing a potential franchisee by limiting the amount of capital required to acquire a TOC
  • it enabled franchises to be let for periods much shorter than the life of the rolling stock, allowing regular competitive tendering for the TOCs
  • as the ROSCOs were outside the public-sector spending limits, they would be free to invest.

Your contention that the ROSCOs aim to recover the capital cost of new trains within the lifetime of the first franchises is disingenuous. The period over which assets can be amortised varies with the type of asset and the current legal and financial frameworks - from 3 years for a computer to 50 years or more for civil engineering structures. 15 or 20 years to write off a train seems about right in view of the increasing number of unknowns the further into the future one goes. It is quite possible that, for example, existing diesel trains may be unusable after, say, 2035 because of changes in emission or noise regulations or the price of fuel even if the basic vehicle structure is good for another 15 years. It's all a question of trying to balance risks - and the further ahead the more difficult it gets. These risks do exist and are priced into the leasing costs.

All prediction is difficult - especially about the future.

BR, of course, didn't include such risks in its financial reporting - but the risks and the costs still existed. The classic example is the continued building of steam locomotives when they were already obsolescent - the costs of the abrupt change of course were not carried by the railway but by the taxpayer.

Apart from the original three ROSCOs, there have been other entrants into the market. For example the Voyagers are owned by a specialist company set up for the purpose (the Class 222s are however owned by Eversholt) and Beacon Rail owns the Class 68 diesels and will own the Class 88 electrics when they are delivered.

The IEP/ SET and Thameslink procurements fall outside this framework completely. In the case of the SET the assets are owned by Agility Trains (a joint venture but with Hitachi owning the lion's share) and will be supplied to the TOCs by two subsidiary companies Agility Trains West and Agility Trains East. The DfT has not ordered any trains nor has it transferred any trains to the ROSCOs - it has contracted for a number of operational diagrams based around a nominal future timetable. This contract will be transferred to the selected franchisee, but the train service provision payments will be guaranteed by the DfT.

With the current model of letting franchises with very detailed requirements, the DfT does effectively control the number of trains a franchisee can operate (and in the case of the Invitation to Tender for the next Northern franchise has essentially defined the the make up of part of the fleet). However the bidder can negotiate with the train builders and ROSCOs for any new stock and will build these quotes into its bid. A partial exception to this is the procurement of the interim Thameslink trains by Southern which has essentially acted as DfT's agent because of the delay in the signing of the train service provision contract with Siemens as Siemens tried to raise the capital to cover the design, development, and manufacture of the trains and the costs of the depots.

Trains are expensive - not only in capital cost but in on-going maintenance and safety checks so it is not surprising that there are few spare trains available. On the other hand the DfT was slow to react to the growth in passenger traffic and found it difficult to re-negotiate the franchise deals to allow the franchisee to acquire more trains. One hopes that now as the financial support to the TOCs (taken as a whole) is tending to zero, because of the increase in revenue due to a combination of increasing number of passengers and higher fares, the TOCs would have more freedom in procuring trains. I would suggest that the order for the Class 707 Desiro Cities by SWT is a harbinger of the future - SWT pays a premium of some ^450 million a year to the DfT and this procurement did not seem to suffer the delays which have been seen in the past - and the recently let deals for Scotrail and TSGN.

The profits made by the ROSCOs are not excessive. Eversholt, for example, manages assets worth about ^1.5 billion and has an annual turnover of around ^90 million. It made a profit before tax of about ^13.5 million, paid ^3.5 million in income tax and finished with a profit of about ^10 million. Seems about par for the course.

And finally(!) which trains, apart from some Pacers sold to Iran and some Mark 2 coaches sold to New Zealand, have been sold abroad? Why would anyone 'abroad' want to buy stock to the restrictive UK loading gauge when they can buy full size trains from any other railway in Europe? It's a straw man argument.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: ellendune on March 07, 2015, 19:17:19
The profits made by the ROSCOs are not excessive. Eversholt, for example, manages assets worth about ^1.5 billion and has an annual turnover of around ^90 million. It made a profit before tax of about ^13.5 million, paid ^3.5 million in income tax and finished with a profit of about ^10 million. Seems about par for the course.

^10 Million represents a return on capital invested of 0.66%. That's not much more than the Bank of England's minimum lending rate. I hope Eversholt did not pay ^1.5 bn for the assets or they are getting a very poor return on their investment.   


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 08, 2015, 12:39:46
The profits made by the ROSCOs are not excessive. Eversholt, for example, manages assets worth about ^1.5 billion and has an annual turnover of around ^90 million. It made a profit before tax of about ^13.5 million, paid ^3.5 million in income tax and finished with a profit of about ^10 million. Seems about par for the course.

^10 Million represents a return on capital invested of 0.66%. That's not much more than the Bank of England's minimum lending rate. I hope Eversholt did not pay ^1.5 bn for the assets or they are getting a very poor return on their investment.  

I thought that as well - and the profits for 2013-14 were a lot higher than those for 2012-13. I took the figures from Eversholt Rail (UK)'s financial reports which deal with the operating side. There are several Eversholt companies as the source and management of their loans is quite complex and I didn't study all of them closely so there may be some footnote somewhere which explains it.

I did try out simple arithmetic as a sanity check - but even this has its complications! It sold its fleet of freight rolling stock (nearly 1,000 vehicles) a couple of weeks ago, i.e., after the end of the last financial year, and its web site claims that it now owns some 3,700 vehicles - EMUs, DMUs and locomotives. Assuming the ^1.5 billion includes the freight vehicles the average value of each vehicle works out at ^319,148 and excluding the 1000 freight wagons gives an average vehicle value of ^405,405.  (As box wagons are not that expensive I assume that the total value of the assets under management will not change much).

The broad numbers seem about right - but leasing rolling stock does not seem to be a way to get rich quick. I would think the attractions of investing in such a company is the steady and predictable future cash flow rather than large profits of the chances of significant rapid expansion in the business. A bit like aircraft leasing really and nothing like selling smartphones!


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: stuving on March 08, 2015, 13:41:02
There are several Eversholt companies as the source and management of their loans is quite complex and I didn't study all of them closely so there may be some footnote somewhere which explains it.

Yes, it is a truly labyrinthine structure, for whatever reason.

As far as I can make out the whole set-up is owned by Eversholt Investments Ltd., and their accounts for last year (2014) (https://www.eversholtrail.co.uk/upload/eversholt-investment-ltd-3201577.pdf) are consolidated ones. (At least that is the entity HSBC sold.) That company is owned by an Irish one, which is owned by one in Luxembourg. No doubt there are tax reasons for doing that, but this is in any case the kind of business that tax laws make complicated by giving deferred allowances etc.

The rolling stock is owned by subsidiaries, and mostly financed by bonds (secured on the rolling stock) issued by another subsidiary. There is a subsidiary that runs (not just owns) some depots. So only the consolidated account make any sense, and only insofar as accounts ever do. 

They quote a cost of their railway assets of (all figures in ^million at 31/12/2015) 2336, depreciated to a "carrying value" of 1751. Last years's depreciation was 134, but, before working that out as a rate, remember that the "cost" is less than the full purchase cost - apart from inflation, some of it was acquired at privatisation at below its real value then. There is a figure of 19.6 years given for the average age of the fleet (which includes the IC225s), all of which is on lease.  There were some acquisitions, totalling 16.

Their bonds (all long-term - over 5 years) cover 1250, and the rest (340) is financed by a loan from the "shareholders" - that Luxembourg company. The money to repay the bonds goes into a kind of "negative sinking fund" - by repaying that shareholder loan. However, there are other movements of money and bank deposits and loans too, which complicate things.

The lease income is given as 283, and there is maintenance income (where they operate depots) of 79 - against maintenance costs of 68 (though I am not sure what that consists of). Interest includes several items that would need a bit of investigating to make sense of, but the big numbers are 50 to the shareholders and 70 to the bondholders.

The bottom line is a loss of 55, which they attribute to that interest to the shareholders and a nominal loss of 49 on swap contracts (some of which may be a form of hedging they are required to do, to guarantee repayment of the bonds). There is no mention of dividends in the normal sense, though there is an item of 50 identified as "shareholder dividend", but that appears to be essentially the interest payment shown already.

Part of that high level of interest going to Luxembourg is presumably profit sneaking off to avoid corporation tax, but not all of it. You'd need to be an expert (and I'm not) to extract the reality from accounts that are not trying to be easy to understand. I presume they have to provide ORR with accounts for monitoring in a standard, consolidated, form.



Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: ellendune on March 08, 2015, 13:47:27
Ah so this is yet another company trying make its profits in countries where it is more advantageous. 


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: stuving on March 08, 2015, 15:52:14
Ah so this is yet another company trying make its profits in countries where it is more advantageous. 

Yes, though since this business is all about financing, and companies lending each other lots of money, the transactions are not entirely artificial ones. The interest payments may be  inflated, through. I can't see that a company ought to use some tax advantages, like the ones encouraging capital investment and allowing tax to be deferred and losses offset, but not others, because the government that wrote them did so for another reason. I do wonder why governments ( not just here) have been so slow to curb these "side-effects", though a start has now been made.

To correct a couple of points: Eversholt Investments Ltd. is itself the Irish company owned by one in Luxembourg, and apart from a couple of financing companies the rest of the group - the companies that own stuff - are English. The ^50M dividend was in addition to the ^49M interest going to the shareholders, so it was paid out the the ^55M loss ... not the obvious way to run a company, is it? 

They do pay tax, but mostly in Ireland. There is an analysis of this, but I don't think it tells you much as it relates to the profit as declared and this is lower than it presumably should be. They paid very little this year, but over ^8M last year when the profit was ^53M.


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: Tim on March 09, 2015, 09:49:26
After refurbishment no longer works, as should happen soon with Pacers, you can flog them to some emerging country overseas, where they will seem ultra-modern.

The pacer owner ROSCOs have already produced their glossy brochures to show that their 'assets' can be refreshed yet again to make them Equality Act and RVAR compliant. Sending them overseas is too much like hard work when UK PLC is still prepared to stump up for, and put up with, them.

I'd not be putting money on all the Class 14x fleet being retired from UK service by 31st December 2019.

Not forgetting of course that even if they aren't all modified by that date the Secretary of State has derogation powers to override EA and RVAR legislation if needs must...

Agree with all of that and would add that ROSCOs are not at all in the business of "flogging" their assets.  Why would they sell something for a one off payment when they can lease it out for an on-going return.  I expect that even when the stock is truly life expired, the ROSCOs would rather sell it to the scrap man than to someone who might put it to commercial use because that would mean competition in the provision of stock and potentially downward pressure on lease charges. 


Title: Re: Would it be realistic to renationalise the railways? - BBC News Magazine
Post by: grahame on March 09, 2015, 10:06:21
Agree with all of that and would add that ROSCOs are not at all in the business of "flogging" their assets.  Why would they sell something for a one off payment when they can lease it out for an on-going return. 

HSBC Rail sold (?)six class 483 2 car units to South West Trains in 2007, but then I suspect that we could find an exception to every rule.  Even in that rather odd case, I wondered "why"; said to be because of the embarrassment of the profit they were making, but I find that hard to believe.  More likely to get rid of some oddballs from their books, and the heavy maintenance issues too.



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