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Title: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 26, 2015, 21:25:49 From the Torquay Herald Express (http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Train-fine-angers-dad/story-25893904-detail/story.html):
Quote Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad (http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276409/Article/images/25893904/9355575-large.jpg) fined: Shiqi Bishop, 13, with her dad Tom Angry Kingskerswell dad Tom Bishop claims his teenage daughter was penalised by a train company for putting safety first. Shiqi, 13, was fined ^20 for boarding a First Great Western train between Teignmouth and Newton Abbot without a ^1.50 ticket. Tom says if Shiqi had queued to buy a ticket at the machine she would have missed her train. So instead of waiting alone in the dark for the next one, she followed his advice and boarded the train, intending to buy a ticket from the conductor. When the conductor came round, the Trinity School schoolgirl offered him the correct fare for the seven-minute journey ^ but he refused to accept it and fined her instead. Tom, an engineer, said: "I normally do a school run for Shiqi and her younger sister, Emily, six, but twice a week Shiqi has after-school activities so she catches the train home with her friends. Most of her school friends have travel cards because they get the train every day but because Shiqi doesn't she buys a ticket. On this particular day there was a queue at the ticket machine and the train was coming in. "My instructions to Shiqi have always been the same ^ don't worry, get on the train and when the inspector comes round buy a ticket. I don't want her on her own in the train station in the dark and if the facility to buy a ticket on the train is there, then it's not a problem. She has done this before and it has been fine but this time the guy didn't even ask her why she didn't have a ticket." A First Great Western spokesman said passengers must buy their tickets before boarding the train or face a fine. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: TaplowGreen on January 27, 2015, 05:56:16 ........surely some discretion should have been shown here rather than "fining" a 13 yr old girl who didn't want to be left alone in the dark?
Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: JayMac on January 27, 2015, 06:58:08 Discretion was shown. A Penalty Fare instead of a Byelaw prosecution.
Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: bobm on January 27, 2015, 07:10:09 Don't know what the circumstances were on the day, but in recent weeks the ticket office at Teignmouth has been closed fairly often in the afternoons due to staff shortages putting more of a strain on the single TVM at the front of the station. It is not unusual for a queue to develop at the machine, particularly when those unfamiliar with are forced to use it because the booking office is shut and take longer than average stabbing at the screen.
Rather than going to the papers I would suggest time would be better spent in making an appeal. If the facts are as presented I suggest she has a good case. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: grahame on January 27, 2015, 07:31:08 Indeed ... we don't know the full circumstances. As presented, she may have a good case. However, there are areas / individuals where fare payment has been along "pay if you have to" lines, and such an ethos in an area will lead to a reduction in discretion.
Tickets from travelling machines in our area include a warning about penalty fares on the back, even where a ticket is issued to people who joined without an opportunity to buy, and if that's also the case in south Devon the young lady in question, "as she's paid on the train before" will have had such a notice - and indeed this issue is often pointed out by staff selling tickets on the train. But, really, as Bob says, there should be adequate opportunity to buy, and that includes sufficient facilities to cope at departing stations. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: DavidBrown on January 27, 2015, 09:04:14 I've had that a couple of times where queues and/or breakdown of the TVM meant that waiting would more than likely make me miss my train. What I do is find the conductor (normally at the back of the train on the platform, at that point), and ask if it's OK to buy on board. Every time, they can see the issue and have allowed it. That said, I can easily see why a 13 year old girl wouldn't do the same thing. Can see both sides of the story, but as bobm says, appealing rather than going straight to the papers would have been a better idea.
Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: TaplowGreen on January 27, 2015, 09:27:57 Discretion was shown. A Penalty Fare instead of a Byelaw prosecution. How mean spirited, I take it you don't have a young daughter to worry about? What the FGW ticket wallah could and should have done was acknowledge the situation and the circumstances, especially if the ticket office was closed (granted as Bob says we don't know that but it seems likely) and just charged the customer the normal fare. Remember this is a 13 year old child - the next time in fear of being embarrassed she might remain there waiting for the next train frightened and alone in the dark, vulnerable to God knows what at an unmanned station. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Red Squirrel on January 27, 2015, 09:35:18 Discretion was shown. A Penalty Fare instead of a Byelaw prosecution. Putting aside all the other factors here which give the impression that a big company bullied a child; even if an offence was intended, the penalty is completely out of proportion to the loss. ...such an ethos in an area will lead to a reduction in discretion. I seem to remember that in the bad old days of apartheid in South Africa they used the doctrine of 'sharing common purpose' to lock up (or worse!) anyone who happened to be anywhere near anybody doing anything the government deemed to be illegal. I'd rather not live in a country where such principles pervade. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: chrisr_75 on January 27, 2015, 09:58:39 Discretion was shown. A Penalty Fare instead of a Byelaw prosecution. How mean spirited, I take it you don't have a young daughter to worry about? What the FGW ticket wallah could and should have done was acknowledge the situation and the circumstances, especially if the ticket office was closed (granted as Bob says we don't know that but it seems likely) and just charged the customer the normal fare. Remember this is a 13 year old child - the next time in fear of being embarrassed she might remain there waiting for the next train frightened and alone in the dark, vulnerable to God knows what at an unmanned station. Indeed. No-one, adult or child, male or female, should be put in the position of having to wait for the next train as long as they are willing to cough up the correct fare at some stage, I certainly wouldn't wait, but then again I'm willing to have a robust discussion with a jobsworth. The insistence (yes, I know it is a bye-law) that you buy before you board is ridiculous when there are machines capable of issuing tickets and taking payment on nearly all trains which have a guard on board. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on January 27, 2015, 10:53:58 The father was in the wrong for telling her to just wait for the guard to sell her a ticket, I wonder how many times she has done this journey and not been approached so not paid... While I belive as already stated above due to her age discretion could have been used the girl should have been told by her dad to find the guard, and harsh as it may sound bnm is correct this could have been refered for prosecution so a ^20 slap on the wrist for ignoring the big yellow posters at the station, the issue is not that she boarded without a ticket... It is that no effort was made to actively buy one once she was
Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: JayMac on January 27, 2015, 11:31:19 Discretion was shown. A Penalty Fare instead of a Byelaw prosecution. How mean spirited, I take it you don't have a young daughter to worry about? What the FGW ticket wallah could and should have done was acknowledge the situation and the circumstances, especially if the ticket office was closed (granted as Bob says we don't know that but it seems likely) and just charged the customer the normal fare. Remember this is a 13 year old child - the next time in fear of being embarrassed she might remain there waiting for the next train frightened and alone in the dark, vulnerable to God knows what at an unmanned station. Wrong side of the bed this morning, sorry. My daughter is 13 in February. I should have elaborated. The offence is strict liability and once you board without a ticket at a station where working facilities are available the offence is complete. A Penalty Fare is discretion as it is for an honest mistake. Whether the ticket office was closed, and whether the queueing time was longer than the time FGWs passenger charter says you have wait are not known in this case. The PF is appealable and theae points can be raised and investigated. The vulnerability of the person travelling can also be a point for mitigation. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: LiskeardRich on January 27, 2015, 15:28:21 Is there a duty of care regarding Leaving a child alone in a dark station for an hour if the queue for TVM will cause her to miss a train?
Personally if my daughters were in that situation I'd say the ^20 is worth my daughters safety and pay up. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: a-driver on January 27, 2015, 15:29:21 In any situation where there is a queue for the ticket office/machine or the ticket office is closed the best course of action is to ask the guard before boarding the train thus showing that you intend to buy a ticket.
If there is a queue at the ticket office/machine or the machine is out of order, take a photograph of it as your evidence. The majority of people carry a smartphone. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: TaplowGreen on January 27, 2015, 15:43:46 Is there a duty of care regarding Leaving a child alone in a dark station for an hour if the queue for TVM will cause her to miss a train? Personally if my daughters were in that situation I'd say the ^20 is worth my daughters safety and pay up. If I were the Guard (and as a responsible adult) I would say that the safety of a 13 year old child is far more important than sticking rigidly to a rule book, to say nothing of the damage to the (already tarnished) brand which this sort of article creates.....I see Guards happily selling tickets on trains every day of the week, without seemingly feeling the need to hit people with penalty fares, and these are people who have got on at stations with fully functioning ticket machines and manned ticket offices............then again they are also the sort of people who know how to play the game, and are more likely to argue, rather than a scared child who is a much easier target......it's the worst sort of Jobsworth. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: grahame on January 27, 2015, 15:52:54 Technicallity, perhaps ... I understood that guards / conductors sell tickets at 'regular' prices, and it requires a Revenue Protection Inspector (RPI) to charge the penalty fare? If that's the case, the RPIs (often working in pairs?) may have been on that train as part of a random rota, or they may have been targeting a particular service / place where there are or have been issues. Have I understood that technicality correctly, and/or have things changed?
Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: a-driver on January 27, 2015, 15:53:27 Is there a duty of care regarding Leaving a child alone in a dark station for an hour if the queue for TVM will cause her to miss a train? Personally if my daughters were in that situation I'd say the ^20 is worth my daughters safety and pay up. If I were the Guard (and as a responsible adult) I would say that the safety of a 13 year old child is far more important than sticking rigidly to a rule book, to say nothing of the damage to the (already tarnished) brand which this sort of article creates.....I see Guards happily selling tickets on trains every day of the week, without seemingly feeling the need to hit people with penalty fares, and these are people who have got on at stations with fully functioning ticket machines and manned ticket offices............then again they are also the sort of people who know how to play the game, and are more likely to argue, rather than a scared child who is a much easier target......it's the worst sort of Jobsworth. I don't see why some guards take that stance, at the end of the day ticket machines on stations is another nail in the coffin of the guard/train manager role Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: TRAINMAN57 on January 27, 2015, 20:06:22 Good evening all, just a point to this issue guards do not issue penalty fares this is down too revenue inspectors! As grahame pointed out earlier this train was possibly highlighted for a revenue blockade?
Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Palfers on January 27, 2015, 20:12:52 Another issue I've found is that you can't by rail ranger tickets like a ride cornwall ticket from tvm's has to be bought from the ticket office. And I mainly use liskeard station wich only has one counter in use wich can get a tad busy at times or not open at all or the staff are seeing off a train. This can often mean there is insurficant time to purchase one and having to purchase one on the train were I have to explain the circumstances to the guards and penalty fair officers have been understanding so far!
any one know a reason why you can't? Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: JayMac on January 27, 2015, 20:56:16 There is a general reluctance from TOCs to offer multi-use tickets such as Rovers, Rangers and weekly Seasons from TVMs. I'm sure the TOCs have their reasons, but it certainly can't be because of technical limitations.
And of course, if there's a TVM you should, by the letter of the law, buy a ticket that allows you to complete at least part of your journey and then excess up to the ticket you require at the earliest opportunity. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Brucey on January 27, 2015, 20:59:58 There is a general reluctance from TOCs to offer multi-use tickets such as Rovers, Rangers and weekly Seasons from TVMs. I'm sure the TOCs have their reasons, but it certainly can't be because of technical limitations. Probably for the same reason that Group Save tickets are also not available.Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Super Guard on January 27, 2015, 21:07:47 Good evening all, just a point to this issue guards do not issue penalty fares this is down too revenue inspectors! As grahame pointed out earlier this train was possibly highlighted for a revenue blockade? ...and a guard cannot over-rule/show added discretion when it comes to revenue if the Inspectors are on-board. Trust me, there are some Inspectors that even if the Guard argued for the passenger would still issue the fine. As has been mentioned, given the circumstances 'reported', the inconvenience of writing a letter should be the end of it in my personal view. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Palfers on January 27, 2015, 21:08:28 There is a general reluctance from TOCs to offer multi-use tickets such as Rovers, Rangers and weekly Seasons from TVMs. I'm sure the TOCs have their reasons, but it certainly can't be because of technical limitations. Probably for the same reason that Group Save tickets are also not available.Could it possibly they don't want to over complicate the selection process on the tvm's I know the ones with fgw are pretty simple to understand and use. A while ago I made a trip to Axminster which is operated by swt and found the tvm over complicated. One thing I did notice there was only 10p difference in a return to exter and a return to plymouth from there! Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Ollie on January 27, 2015, 21:28:48 There is a general reluctance from TOCs to offer multi-use tickets such as Rovers, Rangers and weekly Seasons from TVMs. I'm sure the TOCs have their reasons, but it certainly can't be because of technical limitations. TVMs can do weekly seasons. For Rovers I believe there is a technical reason (Rovers bought online can only be posted) - but not sure what the issue is on that side of things. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: JayMac on January 27, 2015, 23:25:14 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: BerkshireBugsy on January 28, 2015, 07:45:32 I certainly wouldn't leave my teenage daughter on her own at a station in the dark - I have a duty of care to protect the general public from her teenage strops :)
All joking aside as Graham said we do not know the full facts but I do agree that going to the papers early on would not be my way of dealing with it. Except, of course, if it was the daily mail who I respect for their unbiased and factual reporting style I think that's enough mischief for this morning :) Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: TaplowGreen on January 28, 2015, 08:53:35 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. .......and yet we can send men to the Moon.........(Advance tickets not available!) :D Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: Super Guard on January 28, 2015, 09:59:20 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. .......and yet we can send men to the Moon.........(Advance tickets not available!) :D Have we though? ;) Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: trainer on January 28, 2015, 10:01:03 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. .......and yet we can send men to the Moon.........(Advance tickets not available!) :D Sending men (or indeed women) to the Moon is of course comparatively straightforward. Only a few passengers, no conflicting movements, one vehicle, one destination, no peak/off peak variation in payload, no commercial imperatives, no bikes in the passenger area, timetable relatively flexible if weather for launch inclement, no-one on board has anyone waiting to meet them an onward connection etc... :) Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: BerkshireBugsy on January 28, 2015, 10:03:37 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. .......and yet we can send men to the Moon.........(Advance tickets not available!) :D Have we though? ;) Oh oh...I feel a thread diversion ahead .. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: trainer on January 28, 2015, 18:17:11 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. .......and yet we can send men to the Moon.........(Advance tickets not available!) :D Have we though? ;) Oh oh...I feel a thread diversion ahead .. Via The Moon being the biggest diversion EVER ;D. Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: BerkshireBugsy on January 28, 2015, 18:24:03 TVMs can do weekly seasons. Although not all TOCs, or all types of TVM, offer the facility. .......and yet we can send men to the Moon.........(Advance tickets not available!) :D Have we though? ;) Oh oh...I feel a thread diversion ahead .. Via The Moon being the biggest diversion EVER ;D. Lol ! This diversion reminds me of a film called Capricorn one(which was about Mars) Title: Re: Daughter's train fine angers Kingskerswell dad Post by: JayMac on January 28, 2015, 21:30:18 Lol ! This diversion reminds me of a film called Capricorn one(which was about Mars) I remember that one. James Brolin and OJ Simpson. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |