Great Western Coffee Shop

I had been planning to suggest converting all the (usually empty) First-class sections on the turbo's into Quiet Carriages, which I am sure would be a very popular move.

However....

I missed the 07:22 from Tilehurst this morning & had to get the 07:43 fast train to Paddington & go back to Ealing Broadway.

I found a seat in the quiet carriage and all was well until Maidenhead, whereupon 3 guys came to sit at my table & talked incessantly all the way to Paddington despite my pointing out that it was supposed to be the quiet carriage & please could they either not talk or go & sit in another carriage?

They said that only mobile phones & MP3's were barred & there was nothing to prevent them talking as much as they wanted.

Why are some people so ^$%&^* inconsiderate? It was obvious I was trying to study (& that other people in the carriage were also trying to work).

Isn't it about time that "Quiet Carriages" were explicity required to be just that - with the guards given the authority to demand that anyone not prepared to be absolutely silent move to another carriage?

Isn't it about time that "Quiet Carriages" were explicity required to be just that - with the guards given the authority to demand that anyone not prepared to be absolutely silent move to another carriage?

I was just thinking that it was about time we had a "quiet coach" thread!  ;)

I used to be fairly tolerant of the occasional ring tone (and amused at the tutting and glaring which would follow). With the HST refurbishment, the "quiet coach" signage has become very low key - it used to be emblazoned on the seat antimacassars, now there are barely-visible window stickers. Add to that all the commuters who are new to HSTs (Twyford, Kennet Valley etc.) and are as yet "untrained", and coach A has become as noisy as the rest.

And what are the rules anyway? I sometimes hear guards announce "Please refrain from using mobile phones and personal stereos, and keep unnecessary noise to a minimum". The automated announcement on 180s says "Please respect other passengers when using this coach" (shouldn't we respect other passengers in every coach?). Perhaps the suggestion of zero tolerance of any noise is not such a bad idea, since it removes all doubt  :-\

Some people on the other hand have a nervous break down.

I don't think you can just 'ban' children from the Quiet Coach. I sit in it often as it is less busy than the rest of the train and I never make any noise, I feel scared if I do as everyone glares at you so not all children are noisy.

If you hate "deathly silence" then all you need to do is sit in another carriage!

And as for the "total b***h" - was that me? :-)

Seriously, talking is talking, whether loudly or not, if you are sitting right next to the person who is doing it. So if it was the quiet carriage, she had every right to ask you to move if you were disturbing her.

No - the carriage was empty and she was the other side of the carriage.

Erm ... so who were you talking to?   :P

Lol, He was actually talking to me

Byelaw 7; "Except with written permission from the operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:
(I) sing; or
(I) use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound"

So it's not just the quite coach, this applies to ANY train, ANY coach, so next time someone is annoying you just quote "byelaw 7"!!

Okay, it is obvious that there are some people on here who simply have no understanding of the concept that being able to overhear the actual words of another person's conversation at all (loud or not) makes it absolutely impossible for some of us to maintain concentration.

(Speaking personally, ringtones & MP3's don't actually bother me that much, it is the speech that is the distraction.)

The fact that I am in the minority (which I readily accept) is the reason why there are not many more quiet coaches.

So if you are travelling in a pair or a group, & are likely to want to talk to each other rather than work or read, DO NOT SIT IN THE QUIET COACH.

That way you can pass your journey in the way that you want without ruining anyone else's!

tapping keyboards

I have to agree with Jim on this one, it's only mobile phones and music players that should be banned. Talking quietly has to be acceptable or you might as well ban people from tapping keyboards and rustling newspapers as well.

How about banning sneezing, coughing, eating and drinking!

Ban Passengers, great Idea, all the trains would have plenty of spare seats and more often than not the Train WOULD run to time.
Might cause a very small problem with the CASH FLOW.

Just run freight trains.

I thought that was what FGW already ran?

Freight services ferrying cattle between railway stations... ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm not sure that anyone here has suggested they think it's okay to talk constantly or at the top of your voice in the quiet coach.

How you can get so worked up over the human voice but say you're not bothered by the constant noise stereos make, I don't understand.

Sorry, I know that this is way too much information for some of you, but I was asked!

And yes, people shouting loudly into mobile phones is the absolute most annoying thing of all - at least we can agree on something!

Am I allowed to go off-top and recall what I was very temped to do with some guy shouting at his wife on a mobile phone on the tube [above ground section] demanding that she pick him up from Osterly when he got there?  I was very tempted to take the phone off him and tell his wife that I wouldn't stand being talked to like that!

I don't think it's been asked yet in this thread ... the rule says "no use of mobile phones in the quiet carriage" as I recall. Not so much these days, but I used to use my mobile phone to go online, which makes no noise, when travelling by train. And of course the rule says I can't do this in the quiet carriage ... have I understood the rule correctly?

"We ask that people who sit in the Quiet Carriage respect other passengers and:
 
- Use their mobile phones in the vestibule and not in the carriage and keep them on silent throughout the journey.
   

Welcome to the forum Daniel.

A agree that the online reservation system needs improving to allow you choose your seat where possible which some airlines now provide. Another rather annoying thing that was introduced by Virgin trains a few years back and copied by other rail companies, not FGW I hasten to add, was the removal of the option of choosing whether you face or face back to the direction of travel when booking a ticket as I don't like travelling backwards  :(

The new National Express East Coast website allows you to make a number of choices when booking a seat including quiet coach. NX also don't charge a booking fee unlike the Trainline.

I smoke. I hate mobile phones.

As a smoker who has had to adapt to 5 hour journeys between Paddington & Cornwall sans cigarette, I frequently have the fantasy of lighting up and blowing smoke right in the faces of anyone using a mobile phone inconsiderately on the train. Two wrongs don't make a right, I know, but I'd takel a perverse pleasure in the fact that that I was pissing them off with my smoke pollution as much as they were me with their noise pollution.

Imo ALL coaches should be mobile-free. If people want to use them, they should go between the coaches and be grateful; smokers don't even have that option.

While in griping mode, the arrogance of people who litter public spaces, such as trains, without any thought for fellow users or those who have to clean up after them, drives me ballistic, too.



 

thetrainline doesn't charge a booknig fee. It charges a transaction fee on credit cards. use a debit card and it's free ;)

but technology has changed (ipods, pdas, blackberries, laptops - none of which is addressed in the policy

We ask that people who sit in the Quiet Carriage respect other passengers and:
Use their mobile phones in the vestibule and not in the carriage and keep them on silent throughout the journey.
Do not listen to personal stereos or other electronic equipment such as portable DVD players.
Keep all other electronic equipment such as laptops and portable games consoles on silent.
Talk quietly when talking to other passengers. 
This way those that wish to have a peaceful, relaxing journey may do so.

Maybe FGW should try reading their own website, the following extract from which appears to cover all electronic devices perfectly well.


I have headphones for my personal stereo designed not to emit noise other than to me - they werent cheap mind

But - I would object if I were told to stop using it because iPods were not allowed.

No one can heat mine (not that I use it often like)
Given that a person with a personal stereo usually doesn't know, nor care, what it sounds like to anyone around them, I find the idea of any switch to an "emphasis on noise volumes" worrying. These things should just be banned outright in quiet carriages, full stop.

The present policy, outlined above, seems perfectly adequate, if only FGW could be bothered to provide clearly visible signs and special antimacassars again - as well as some of those little stickers below the windows which most Adelantes also had in coach A - and get train crews to: a. Consistently announce the policy on the PA; b. Actively police it when they are in coaches A and G - too many staff simply ignore phones going off, nor do they often deal with Jane's original bugbear, the group of people who just won't shut up, and who, like personal stereo users, don't care about the volume or those sitting around them.

And why did it take until January to look at this properly? I gave them feedback about the lack of adequate notices after my first trip on a refurbished 125 many months ago, and can't imagine I was alone. Nor can I imagine I was the only one who was, frankly, fobbed off with a load of waffle.

Would also be nice if they turned down the volume on the PA announcements in the quiet coaches!

Yea either clutter up the window with stickers, or get people to understand what quiet means..

By the way coach G has them too.

Put them on the back of seats!

Esp. easy for FGW HSTs with the lack of tables.

And an easy target for anyone slightly bored/restless/juvenile/eager to pick at something sticky in front of them!

How advanced is the system? Would it recognise the fact that there are two child tickets being bought with an adult ticket? Could it not "discretely" allocate sets not in the quiet carriages unless specifically requested buy the customer?

I think you're quite right, willc - either FGW have 'quiet carriages' as a feature of their HST services (and enforce it) or they just don't bother at all.

And, just as an aside, why are the on-board announcements loudest in these 'quiet carriages'?  Perhaps because the train manager / customer host knows that their announcements are more likely to be drowned out in coaches A and H ?

???

Use NXEC's website. You have to opt in to the Quite Zone.

Use NXEC's website. You have to opt in to the Quite Zone.

quote]
Exactly. It should NOT be hard to program a system to never place a child reservation in A or G (quite who would pay first class fares for the kids is beyond me, but anyway...).

But is Joe Public, when wanting to book a journey on an FGW train, going to think of going to the East Coast website? I think not.

I pointed out that the notice at the end of the coach said phones should be off - period.

What is "period" for?

It's the phase of the menstrual cycle in which the uterine lining is shed. (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/av.gif)

It's the phase of the menstrual cycle in which the uterine lining is shed. (http://www.takeforum.com/forum/images/smiles/av.gif)

Stop sniggering, and stand at the back of the class, you three!  ;D

Thanks, willc!  ;) :D ;D

I agree with every word of your post - if there's a carriage described as a 'quiet carriage', that's because that's exactly what it should be!  >:(

Actually, I don't use those carriages, only because I tend to keep my mobile switched on, just in case of urgent calls.  That's not a problem, I just respect those in quiet carriages who want a mobile free (and MP3 player and DVD/whatever free) environment, and I take my chances in coach B, or C, or D ...  ::)

But the lovely card and website also add that you should "watch your volume when talking to other passengers" or something like that - I would suggest that neatly covers the 20th rendition of this old farmer, even when three-year-olds are involved and even if their parents have paid for first class tickets.

Don't they realise that it is not only the speaker noise, but the tapping of keyboards and the distraction of a screen? So laptops should be BANNED from Quiet Zones - they are for people to sleep/relax or do work with distractions.

But the lovely card and website also add that you should "watch your volume when talking to other passengers" or something like that -

What are FGW on? >:(

Don't they realise that it is not only the speaker noise, but the tapping of keyboards and the distraction of a screen? So laptops should be BANNED from Quiet Zones - they are for people to sleep/relax or do work with distractions.

The policy they have put in place regarding earphones etc. should be in place IN EVERY CARRAIGE. It is not acceptable for anyone - even a neighbouring passenger - to be able to hear what is on the earphone. (except, perhaps, a sudden noisy part of a film which then dies down; or a crescendo in music)

And that's not just out of common courtesy - but health! If you are constantly listening to sound through ear phones which are loud enough to be heard around you - it's too loud! You risk permanently damaging your middle or inner ear. (and it's bloody annoying having a thumping beat in the carriage!)

Should quiet carriages be included in advance seat bookings?

With the Seat Bookings thread, if you have an advance ticket and are allocated A or G then you must travel in your seat even if you don't want to and be forced to travel in silence.  This would be especially bad with families.

If somebody is bothering you that much, ask them politely to keep the noise

The Family Carriage can be found in Coach D on First Great Western^s High Speed Trains. It is available on Saturday and Sunday and during the school holidays.

As a parent, I would like a carriage for children but excluding mobile phones and intolerant folk ::)

Well of course, when I say that, I was making the assumption that people had the the common sense to work it out for themselves and the few that didn't could be subjected to a rant  :)

The "watch you volume when talking" is good.

But the earphones when on a DVD player part is bad.

Why are you in the Quiet Zone if you want to watch a film?

And the moving picture could annoy a fellow passengers - along with gun shots or explosions...

Would have to make sure that booking systems give you the option not to choose a quiet carriage. What age would the cut off be?

Point I'm trying to make is why ban relatively quiet laptops but not children

The problem is, there are a lot of people who listen to loud music, without noise cancelling earphones!
I still have a basic problem with the notice.
In NO coach should you listen to music where it is disturbing to others. And not just out of common courtesy. Fact: with normal ear phones - if the music or a beat can be heard when you are not wearing them, the sound is too loud, you're damaging your ears.
Same with mobiles. In no coaches should people be forced to listen to overloud conversations, not just in the Quiet Zone.

Surely the last three out of those four points apply regardless of where you are sat on the train?

You shouldn't play music out loud wherever you are sat, nor should you shout.

prehaps you can enlighten us on the needlless announcments???

Then there are the customer hosts announcing the buffet is open - stop there!  dont go through the list of everything you have!  If people want stuff - they'll go once they know its open - if they dont - announcing an all day breakfast bap is not going to entice them!

Whilst the trendy-ten-years-ago term 'jobsworths' is certainly valid in certain contexts in certain railway jobs, I don't think you should label train managers that like to make announcements jobsworths. I agree that in my opinion some of them go over the top, but in the case of HST's on the Cotswolds with short platforms then they really should be announcing it in some way. You can bet your life that if you don't then you'll get the occasional irregular passenger who doesn't know and panics and pulls the comms cord. The 5 minute delay that would result would fall squarely on them if they haven't announced it.

Better training in what to announce and when needs to be given. The TM's on here might be able to tell you what they are given in terms of scripts, but they certainly don't follow the KISS principles (Keep It Short and Simple) that they should. I used to take courses in Train Announcing, so I know what I am talking about. Sadly, these days it's all about covering all the bases and you can't blame TM's for saying what they are told to say! Agree with Btline that internal displays should also be used - they were included in the original mock-up of the HST refresh, but cost got in the way. Obviously IEP will come with internal displays - hopefully they will be used to good effect!

I remember clearly travelling on an early morning stopper from Reading to Paddington the other year where the driver constantly announced the next stop and apologised for the 6 minute delay that the train had. To be honest it was getting totally on my wick, and as I know him I went up to him at Paddington and jokingly told him so. At that point two passengers came up and personally thanked him for all the announcements and for keeping them informed! You just can't win...

OK - I've been doing this since 2004 - I reckon 75% of the time I've been doing WOS to Thames valley/london- I dont think I've been on a train where anyone has pulled a comms!  And I've been on many in the morning!  I'm not saying dont announce full stop!

Then there is the one who is always obbsesses about using the toilets on the approach to paddington - he starts announcing that at oxford! 

Minimum INMHO

1. Announcing where to get off
2. Announcing there is a buffet

End of

How many people really read the safety leaflets anyway and if they don't - are going to be prompted by a tannoy!

The fully licensed bar bit always amuses me.... at 8am???

Why is it always decribed as fully licenced?  What is a partly licenced bar?

The only improvement I can think of is 'Quiet Carriage' in a few of the common languages, so that non-English speakers might get the gist of it too.

Again - I have noise canceling headphones - bet I could watch terminator next to you and you woldnt know

Isnt the difference about whether you can drink on or off the premises.  So by being fully licenced they can sell you alcohol and you can drink it in the buffet/on the train and take it with you.  Whilst you can restricted licences that only allow off sales or consumption on the premises

0624 from WOS - announcing where to get off at any station up to OXF - NO ONE GETS OFF - and if they do they are regulars!

60% of the time - the TM doesnt do any verbal anmouncements - then you get the jobsworths who do - its like day and night

With the stops on the cotswolds line - by the time they have finished (if they do the whole script including the braille safety leaflets) they have a pause for breath before they are announcing which stop we're approaching and where to get off

Ummmm !

Noise canceling headphones are designed to reduce the effects of external noise on the listener not the other way round !  In theory this should allow the wearer to reduce the volume they are listening at, but there is little evidence to support this.
True noise canceling headphones also need to enclose the ear completely, most personal audio equipment use in-ear devices which are not - despite what they claim - noise canceling !

mine are senheiser external old fashioned earphones 

French trains don't allow mobiles in any carriage- there are stickers eveywhere reminding you of this- it's in the culture to go out to the vestibules to use a phone, much as it was to smoke until the complete ban.

French trains don't allow mobiles in any carriage- there are stickers eveywhere reminding you of this- it's in the culture to go out to the vestibules to use a phone, much as it was to smoke until the complete ban.

I was on a train the other week where a BBC Spotlight news reporter ranted at somebody for using their phone in the quiet carriage.  :D

I once dropped a mobile phone into a fellow passengers glass of beer......it was friday wine club and I'd more than a few en route to hereford (thankfully being picked up).

A couple of request and a TM request and the prat was still unrepentent.....so I took direct action

Next time I hear someone shout "I'm on the train...", I'm going to add "...in the quiet carriage" at the same volume :-[

No hot beverages for 'health and safety reasons' which turned out to be they'd run out of paper bags to put the drinks in.

7. Music, sound, advertising and carrying on a trade
(1) Except with written permission from an Operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:
(i) sing; or
(ii) use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound.

This is the counter productive aspect of labelling a 'quiet carriage' - people wrongly assume they can make as much noise as they like in other carriages...

Paul

What I don't understand is why Coach H isn't the First Class Quiet Carriage... It would make alot more sense, because anyone who wants to go to the Buffet car or use the disabled toilet for example has to walk through the quiet carriage to get there... 9 times out of 10 causing severe annoyance to the quiet carriage occupants...

Just a thought that maybe moving it to H would be a better option...?!

What I don't understand is why Coach H isn't the First Class Quiet Carriage... It would make alot more sense, because anyone who wants to go to the Buffet car or use the disabled toilet for example has to walk through the quiet carriage to get there... 9 times out of 10 causing severe annoyance to the quiet carriage occupants...

Just a thought that maybe moving it to H would be a better option...?!

Does someone walking through a 1st class coach coach cause severe annoyance to 90% of the passengers?  I must be in the 10% then, as it doesn't worry be one jot.  And in my experience relatively few passengers in 1st go to the buffet, as they can get what they need from the trolley. 

As for someone getting from Coach H to the disabled toilet in Coach C, can't see that happening for one moment.     

Though why you would visit the buffet 2 or three times between Bath and Weston puzzles me.

I was on a train the other week where a BBC Spotlight news reporter ranted at somebody for using their phone in the quiet carriage.  :D

It was Simon Hall  :D

The question is... is it acceptable to use a Mobile Phone in the quiet carriage if you're the only occupant... :o

I must admit I have done that once in the past... the other occupant I know for a fact didn't care less because he was my dog ;D

I must admit I have done so at moreton in Marsh on the 1822/1922 and its me and the paint work - on about 1/3 occasions it upsets someone

So you weren't the only occupant?

Technology is the answer. It's really not difficult to block phone signals in a defined area. As soon as people realise they're not even going to receive a phone / wi-fi / 3g signal in a particular coach, they'll get up and find a seat elsewhere, rather than pretend they haven't seen the signs.

Technology is the answer. It's really not difficult to block phone signals in a defined area. As soon as people realise they're not even going to receive a phone / wi-fi / 3g signal in a particular coach, they'll get up and find a seat elsewhere, rather than pretend they haven't seen the signs.

But that raises a very interesting question, Phil - what are the rules about using your laptop online (via 3g / WiFi) in the quiet carriage (with speaker turned off)?

Or simply sending text messages or emails, which are surely entirely legitimate activities you might do in the quiet carriage because you want to get on with some work?  This really has to come down to better enforcement. There are a few places where signposting could be a bit clearer, but the main culprits seem to be simply ignoring them.

7. Music, sound, advertising and carrying on a trade
(1) Except with written permission from an Operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:
(i) sing; or
(ii) use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound.

Better enforcement would help a lot.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that if you deliberately set out to block mobile phone signals, you're breaking the law (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/jammers/), whether using an active or passive mechanism.  So you need to take a much more ingenious approach, like building your railway underground (http://www.hs2.org.uk/)... those extra billions of pounds will be worth it after all!

Given some of the comments, it sounds like it would be better to have two quiet carriages and two silent carriages!  (Perhaps FGW could redecorate the silent carriages in a suitable style (http://www.daviddarling.info/images/anechoic_chamber.jpg).)

Ahh, but it seems likely that one of the worlds largest underground networks will shortly have mobile phone coverage:

http://www.t3.com/news/huawei-to-provide-london-underground-mobile-coverage

I heard about this a few years ago.  Up untill today I hadn't heard anything further about it and had hoped this ridiculous plan had been totally scrapped.  This is a complete and utter waste of ^50million!!!

May I suggest coach A as the quiet coach, coach B for children, coach C for anyone who has the temerity to want to eat or drink whilst on-board, coach D for people with personal hygeine issues ...

But I want to eat the burger I just bought on the concourse with my children, and have a quiet journey. I'm on my way home from holiday and ran out of deodrant midweek.  So I can go in A, B, C or D, right  ;D

[devil's advocate]
Public transport is exactly that: public. That means that you have to deal with other people around you. Stop being so precious and get over it.

I think that is pretty harsh comment.

B) First Great Western and indeed other train companies really need to get more strict in enforcing the Quiet Zone rules.  For instance on the spot penalty fines of ^50 if caught talking on a mobile phone.  That may sound ridiculous to some people.  

As mentioned in other countries such as Germany and The Netherlands, any of the very few percentage of people who make or receive a call on their mobile talk at a low volume and respect fellow passengers.  And the conversations are usually much much shorter.  None of this stupid inane babble, babble, babble about where they went at the weekend, what clothes they brought, what they're having for tea, etc, etc.  Why can't people be more like this here in the UK?

Also clear PA announcements that this is a Quiet Zone and talking on mobile phones is NOT permitted.

On an HST only ONE Standard Class carriage is a Quiet Zone, there are FOUR other carriages available for passengers who wish to use their mobile.

Ahh, but it seems likely that one of the worlds largest underground networks will shortly have mobile phone coverage:

http://www.t3.com/news/huawei-to-provide-london-underground-mobile-coverage

One thing they need to do is put more signs up in the carriage. The odd sticker on the windows won't work! How about one on each seat back?

I was on a quiet carriage this evening in First Class.. There were some people standing who weren't first class customers (or they'd have sat down!!) and some were talking.. The guy on the table next to me told them to be quiet as it was a quiet carriage...It almost made me stop listening to my mp3 player but I know that no one apart from me can hear what I'm listening too as I've checked it out it before.. But I did test it again at that point... He didn't say anything to me tho anyway so all good...

Well all good apart from the train manager not making an appearance or checking tickets..But that's not for this topic  ::) ::)

Sounds like the passenger knew the rules exactly. He just chose to be obnoxious.

He hadn't been best please when I asked for access to the inner seat ... I really didn't want to stand Chippenham to London!

I recently saw a good misunderstanding on the down Golden Hind. Two smartly dressed "city types" were enjoying a meal in F, the restaurant when one wished to take a phone call.

Sorry missed this bit off my last post.

I think they were very well intentioned but were just rather unfortunate. You can't blame them for good etiquette and certainly making a good effort which backfired slightly though.

I think most of these people who do not want anyone else to sit beside them discourage any one from asking by putting all their luggage on the adjacent seat.

Unless you are disabled or have reduced mobility and have made arrangements in advance for assistance, you should be able to manage your luggage without additional help. Luggage is carried subject to sufficient space being available in the train service you wish to use. Luggage should not occupy seats intended for passengers; if it does so, it may be charged for as set out in Appendix B.

It's the "quiet" carriage, not the "silent" carriage - if someone has to take/make a brief call on a mobile I don't really have a problem with it as long as its a "quiet" conversation......no worse than two people sitting next to each other talking?

What if a Doctor needs to take a call on a busy train....is he supposed to battle his way through to a "non quiet" coach just to preserve peoples (rather precious) feelings?

Personally I try to have consideration for others wherever I am or wherever I'm sitting, and it's certainly far less obnoxious than someone bawling "Oi, it's the quiet carriage".

Lets get into the 21st century folks, is it really that much of an issue in the great scheme of things?  ::)

I agree actually.  A quiet phone call is not a problem

what is worse is:

5. Anyone who does anything to dare wake me up when I'm trying to get a kip

I'll remember to climb over you next time I want the unoccupied window seat that's inside from you  :D

5. Anyone who does anything to dare wake me up when I'm trying to get a kip

Does that include a guard performing a ticket check?

And where did they put the bags? Or did you move on?

Ticket will be left suitably available for inspection without disturbing me

There was also that set running around not long ago which had 2 coach G's in it. Which of course caused no end of confusion because there were 2 First Class Carriages which were both labelled as Quiet Carriages. As there was a Micro Buffet...

This did amuse me though:
http://www.rosiemillard.com/2012/05/children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard/ (http://www.rosiemillard.com/2012/05/children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard/)

Anyway, we do not laugh, scoff, or spit on the ground with disgust. The children roll their eyes and keep quiet. They are used to being treated like ninth class citizens by the general public. On the way back, it is much the same. People groaning  when anyone less than four foot high approaches them. Grumpy people with your invisible force fields, can I remind you (yet again) that today^s giggling nine year old is tomorrow^s care assistant?

<discussionpoint>But shouldn't we make other amends too - stop treating children as unique charity cases and let them travel at half price. What's does this benevolence do to their self esteem, and their growing up to understand values? The days are long gone that the country needs to encourage its citizens to breed to grow an army.  </discussionpoint>

She has a fair point ... it's worth taking time out to look for the upcoming generations.  <discussionpoint>But shouldn't we make other amends too - stop treating children as unique charity cases and let them travel at half price. What's does this benevolence do to their self esteem, and their growing up to understand values? The days are long gone that the country needs to encourage its citizens to breed to grow an army.  </discussionpoint>

Pointing out to a mother and child that they were disrupting the peace of a train ride left Jane Shilling feeling mean

I know, said I (quietly!), that the train is quite full, and I know it is hard for children to be quiet. But you do realise that this is the quiet coach? I think I knew, as I said it, that it was a forlorn hope. How dare I tell her to be quiet! How dare I speak like that to a little child? She is being very rude about you, darling! I am going to find the guard, who will confirm that I have a perfect right to sit here with my daughter. And off she went ...

Yeah but once again, it's the "quiet" coach, not the "silent" coach, it's not a Trappist monastery!

If you want to travel in silence, drive in your personal steel bubble!  ::)

Congratulations, First Great Western, You Just Lost A Regular Customer

"Welcome to this 13:30 First Great Western service from Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington, arriving at London Paddington at 15:14. The quiet carriages can be found in Coach A to the very rear of the train, and in Coach F in First Class. If you're travelling in one of these quiet coaches this afternoon we do ask that you refrain from using your mobile phone and keep all conversation to a minimum."

How I love the soft cadence of those lines, the hushed yet urgent rhythm and breathy exhortations to keep your belongings with you and don't hesitate to report anything suspicious. I write them down, these non-aphorisms of standard travel, in the notebook that's always with me. As a journalist and presenter I travel up and down the country every week enjoying the seat crumbs, freezing air con and barren toilets of all the nation's rail providers. I always book my ticket in advance and always book a seat in the quiet carriage where I and everyone else "do refrain" from making noise.

It's good. You get a lot of work done.

On Thursday 29 August - exactly eight hours ago as I type this - I did take the 13.30 First Great Western from Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington. The previous night I'd presented Margaret Atwood at St George's: she was sharp, yet deep; the full capacity audience was adoring, yet shrewd; the venue was large, yet elegant; Atwood's latest novel, MaddAddam, is ingenious, yet humane.

I was presenting on behalf of the excellent Bristol Festival of Ideas, whose media partner is The Observer newspaper. I present for the Festival of Ideas often. I've also come to Bristol to present and speak at the Women's Literature Festival, Bristol ShortStoryville, the Bristol Palestine Film Festival - here I am interviewing Ken Loach and Leila Sansour - and countless other events, mainly at the Arnolfini and the Watershed. I do hope all my Bristol colleagues are reading this - and indeed, I will direct them to it - because it will explain why I am not likely to be in Bristol again, and why all the writers and artists they've invited to speak or perform might think twice about getting the train there from London, and why.

I sat in the quiet coach, Coach A, seat 20. The carriage and the rest of the train were half empty. The journey was fine. Didcot Parkway, Swindon, Bath Spa; it wasn't quite Geneva to Versailles but there you go. In my notebook I planned out a short story for a forthcoming collection with Spread the Word - here I am, on their site, looking like I was abandoned in a forest and raised by wolves. The collection is linked to their short story prize, which I judged alongside Tania Hershman and Courttia Newland, two of London's freshest writers. And I looked ahead with pleasure to next week, when I will be delightedly reviewing Jhumpa Lahiri's latest book, the Booker-longlisted The Lowland, for Saturday Review on Radio 4 - here's a quickie guide through my last BBC bits, First Great Western. I was tired after giving three talks - about war reportage, about journalism in the digital age and about the Middle East - at the Greenbelt Festival, and before that chairing six events at Edinburgh.

This is all to let you know, First Great Western, that I am typical of my profession. We journalists are mobile, well-connected, visible and verbal. Our job is to be one individual who speaks to many. I do that through TV, radio, magazines, newspapers and countless live events. Whenever I arrive at these events I am asked casually by colleagues, "How was the journey up?" From now on I will answer, "Oh, fine - but I had the most astounding experience on First Great Western."

At Reading a group of extremely young, chipper, happy and well-spoken graduates got on. There were about six or seven of them, twenty years old or so, male and female, in those wonderful first business suits you buy at that age from Austin Reed or somesuch. My first suit, which I still wear, was a lovely soft trouser thing, navy blue, polyester through and through, from Dorothy Perkins (I cut the label out). Posh, bouncy, articulate and full of the joys of life, this group were loud and garrulous but absolutely not crude in any way. I gleaned from their top volume, non stop and very enthusiastic conversation that they were studying finance and management at university. One chap mentioned his training course in Abu Dhabi while another said casually to his friend, "You know Jason Statham? He goes to my mum's gym, and he offered her tickets to his film premier." A young woman asked her friend, "In the Cotswolds, what do you want, brownies, cookies or croissants?" Another one teased his friend, "Why is your suit not in your suitcase? Suit. Case. Your suitcase is there, but your suit's hanging here. I'm being ironic. It's a play on words." "We're supposed to be clever," chimed in another friend. Another one talked about going on a Spanish language exchange to an area of Spain where "They don't pronounce their s's. I'm like, 'I don't understand you. Fuck off.'"

How marvellous it is to be young, joyful and entitled! I know this type well. Too well, actually: I'm one of them. All my friends went into banking, management consultancy (it was the late 90s yuppie revival), medicine and law. Indeed, this noisily upbeat, loose-tongued party in seats 13 and 14, 9 and 10 and 11 and 12 had a distinctive, extremely familiar, drawling accent, just like me. So it was no surprise to hear one young man refer to "my parents' reward for me for getting into Habs."

Ah, Haberdashers'. My old school. I wrote about it here, First Great Western, in my Guardian column.

Reading to London is about an hour and I sat through the noise for forty-five minutes. I didn't begrudge this young group their energy and pride, their joy in life and good achievements, which were not oafish or obnoxious in any way. I don't believe in giving bitter looks or tutting and rolling eyes or scolding and making things unpleasant. I think it's petty to puncture wholesome young people's happiness. But I was getting no work done and I thought about asking the guard to ask them to tone it down a bit.

I, like you, reader, have been in countless quiet carriages where the guard or other passengers have shushed a noisy group by saying, "I'm sorry but this is the quiet carriage." It's normal and both the complainer and the complainee get it. The quiet carriage is supposed to be relatively quiet. That is why the quiet carriage is called the quiet carriage.

At 14:57 the guard passed me and went up the carriage to the end - "the very rear" - of the train.

At 15:00 the guard went back along the carriage towards the front. This time I caught his eye and gave him a pathetic, silent, yearning look.

"Everything okay?" he asked me.
"I'm sorry," I peeped, pointing my pen tinily behind me, "they're just really noisy."
"Can't really stop people talking."
I said nothing. I just looked at him.
"Can't really stop people talking I'm afraid. Long as they're not on their phones," he said for good measure.
I said nothing. I looked at him.
With a satisfied toss of his head and a smirk he went off, through the noisy group, and the doors shut behind him.

Oh, First Great Western man, how very easy you found it to shut up, answer back to and put down a woman like me. How quickly the dismissal flashed to your tongue, how very pleased you looked when you delivered it straight up and how plainly the gloating disrespect shone on your face. It must be a great pleasure, First Great Western man, dismissing a woman like me, like that, and judging by your swift proficiency I think you have had plenty of practice.

Oh, First Great Western man, your distinction doesn't hold. There's no difference between talking loudly on a mobile and talking loudly in person. The issue is the volume, not the technology.

Oh, testify! First Great Western man, what did you think I would do, numbly accept your rudeness, which you delivered so happily and so openly? Swallow it down and crawl like a nobody back to my nobody hole, having been put down by you?

You might say, First Great Western man, that I have not submitted a formal complaint. Well, First Great Western, consider this to be it. And let me be clear with you: I am not a liar, I am not mistaken and I am not overreacting. The events happened exactly as I have described and I wrote them down two seconds after they happened. I have been on countless train journeys throughout my career and you, First Great Western man, are the only man whose rudeness and passive aggression I have experienced and the only one I have ever complained about.

What I want from you, First Great Western, is an unequivocal apology direct from the perpetrator. I do not want victim-blaming. I do not want lies. I do not want excuses or explanations designed to cover the perpetrator. If you send me these I will make them public along with the name and contact details of whichever passer-offer sent them to me.

"Please refrain from using mobile phones and keep all conversation down to a minimum."
That is the official announcement you made at the beginning of the journey and which you make at the beginnings of all your journeys.

"Well you can't stop people from talking," said the guard straight to my face without a second's hesitation when I made my one, tiny, small-voiced comment after sitting through the noise for forty-five minutes.

I will not travel by First Great Western again, and so I will never hear those sweet murmured words, "if you're travelling in one of our quiet coaches please do refrain from using your mobile phones and keep conversation to a minimum" because, according your own guard, keeping conversation to a minimum is not necessary on your quiet coaches.

I suggest you get your story straight, First Great Western, and teach your guard two simple things: how to understand his own announcements; and how to show respect to a woman, like me, who will not be dismissed.

In the meantime, First Great Western, I am going to tell every single one of my colleagues because, hey, as your own guard so cleverly and quickly said, you can't stop people talking.

n the meantime, First Great Western, I am going to tell every single one of my colleagues because, hey, as your own guard so cleverly and quickly said, you can't stop people talking.

Reading to London is about an hour and I sat through the noise for forty-five minutes.

If I took a beer into a football match I'd expect to be challenged. If I smoke in a non smoking area then I expect to be challenged. What is it that people don't get about quiet carriages!?!?  Shut up or move.

At one time mobile phone conversations were more distracting than face to face in that people seemed to need to bellow into the phone to make themselves heard. Nowadays people usually get by talking into them at a normal level - but there also seems to have been a subtle increase in the noise level of general conversation too. The exception of course is the silly ring tone which the whole carriage needs to hear 3 times before the person finds his or her phone.

[quote author=didcotdean link=topic=1513.msg138987#msg138987 date=1378118363
Counter-intuitively I think someone putting their call on loudspeaker (at a reasonable volume) would be less irritating.

The journalist has a valid complaint - however the response of never travelling with FGW again over this issue is a little hyperbolic in my personal opinion.

...that's not actually breaking the rules, is it?

7. Music, sound, advertising and carrying on a trade
(1) Except with written permission from an Operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:
(i) sing; or
(ii) use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound.

Federal regulators weigh permitting cellphone calls by airline passengers during flights

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/mysuncoast.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/5f/15f056e2-5324-11e3-b402-001a4bcf6878/528ecc22a0b37.preview-300.jpg)
Photo: Chris McKenna (Thryduulf)
A headrest cover in coach A, the standard class Quiet Carriage on a First Great Western HST. Mobile phones and personal stereos are not permitted to be used by passengers travelling in this carriage.

The new chairman of the Federal Communications Commission says rules against making cellphone calls during airline flights are "outdated," and it's time to change them.

FCC chairman Tom Wheeler says modern technologies can deliver mobile services in the air safely and reliably, and the commission will consider a proposal to allow greater in-flight access to mobile broadband at a commission meeting next month.

The proposal would also allow passengers to use their smartphones to send email, text and download data. The proposal would apply to flights when they are over 10,000 feet in altitude, but not during takeoffs and landings.

The proposal to ease cellphone restrictions is being greeted enthusiastically by the Telecommunications Industry Association and the Consumer Electronics Association. But it's drawing protests from flight attendants, airline officials and others. The Association of Flight Attendants says passenger phone calls could go from "a mere nuisance" to a safety and security risk.

I also wouldn't dream of speaking like that in the presence of children either!

He was f-Ing and blinding the whole way from Plymouth to st Austell. I would never use such language round my girls (1&3 years), unfortunately though it seems reflective of modern days. My eldest does 15 hours a week at nursery and has picked up a variety of inappropraite language from her class mates.
I guess its what I believed to be basic etiquette to be quiet in a quiet coach, and also common sense not to take a baby/ toddler into a quiet zone. Maybe I am mout of touch with reality though.