Great Western Coffee Shop

I'm prompted to emerge from long-term lurkerdom on the Coffee Shop by Network Rail's application to Bristol City Council to demolish the building on the Severn Beach-bound platform of Avonmouth station.

The reference is 14/05149/N, and the application (including Network Rail's letter with photographs, which I've also attempted to attach to this post) can be accessed by entering that reference (or simply "Avonmouth station") into the search box on the Council's Planning Online website:

http://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple (http://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple)

In my view, it would be a shame if this building is demolished, and indeed Network Rail gives no reason for its destruction other than that it does not currently have a use.

I'd hope that those who would like the building to be preserved might consider submitting an objection. Comments can be made online; the formal deadline for representations is today, Friday 14 November, but I've found it's sometimes possible to submit planning comments after the deadline.

Welcome to the forum in a full, posting manner, Kempis


I went there to take a look, but get


Do I need a log in ... or is this site open for searches only during certain hours?


Pending a look after 9 a.m.(?) ... is there further data / comment to hand anywhere?

This is the buiding:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/apo.jpg)

Picture reproduced here under creative commons license http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3299853 - thanks to "Jaggery" for its submission and the right to use.

Here is how it appears on he documents, now open for access as it's wakey time!

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/apo1.jpg)

Network Rail say


and include the following pictures:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/apo2.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/apo3.jpg)

There are around half a dozen comments on the application at the momemt, all objections. They comment that this is an increasingly rare buiding with a great history and that other historic buildings in Avonmouth are likely to be lost in the future, bearing in mind the nature of the othe buildings being within operations dock areas that will stand in the way of redeveopment, which this station building does not.   Several of the objections are from local elected representatives.  Other (nonrail) use such as cafe / museum has been suggested but nothing very specific as far as I could see.   According to forms submitted, demonlition would be started on 12th January 2015 and completed by 2nd November 2014.

Personal comments

1. We would "give our eye teeth" for a building such as this at Melksham Station which is similarly set in a semi-industrial setting in the back of the town.  As a CRP office, station snack bar, museum, office, community and secuiry point, heritage interest to attract people to come, and that's just a start ...

2. How widely have other options been explored?   Have folks like the Severnside Partnership and FOSBR been notified / involved / taken a look at what could be done with the building?   Have Network Rail had a thorough and substantive look around for other uses?

3. I do not know the case personally and have only seen the building in passing.  IF all avenues have been explored and serious money would be required out of funds that would otherwise allow another project of real benefit to paseegers to go ahead, and IF there is no propect of anything but it being an unloved shell, there may be a regrettable case for its departure ... however as yes (in a very quick look) I have seen little evidence of attempts to find such an alternative.

As you can see from the photos, the building was a gents hairdressers for a number of years. However, one of the consequences of this was that the question of its future use wasn't really considered in the 2007 Severn Beach Line Development Plan, because at the time it already had a use.

However, the barber has now been retired for some time, and the building has now been empty for a lengthy period, whilst also not benefiting like other stations on the route have from implementation of the Line Development Plan.

On the question of Severnside CRP intervention - The trouble is, I had a similar conversation with Keith Walton a few years back (in a far better financial climate) when the Sea Mills station building became available, and they simply didn't have the funds for a project of that size even then.

To be perfectly frank, the best hope here is if some of these elected officials get together with the local community, using their collective strengths and influence to come up with both a plan for the building and some funding to make it a reality - After all, the key reason cited by NR for going down this route is because they don't believe the building has a future, and it's up to everyone who cares about it to show the opposite to be the case.

And if NR's track record elsewhere in these "short notice" circumstances is anything to go by, to do so rather quickly...

Thanks, Lee ... for our Bristol members, if interested, to chase up quickly - reply to the planning application and copy their appropriate officials.

I've registered my objection...

I note that the reason for raising the 'prior notice' is technically just to give the local authority an opportunity to object to the method of demolition or subsequent site restoration. However one might be forgiven for hoping that if enough people shout at them, NR could find it in themselves to consider the possibility that they might be doing the wrong thing.

I'm noting a decision (geeze - that was quick!) which is a refusal.  It's based on Network Rail supplying insufficient information, and not on the objections which are (as I read it) not reasons for refusal, bearing in mind that all Network Rail were asking for was for the go-ahead for stuff they feel they're able to do without permission.   I'm probably paraphrasing badly here!


Thoughts, anyone?

Demolition does not usually need planning approval, but does need a permit and this looks like the first step in that process - asking whether you need to ask! See http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/demolition/ (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/demolition/)

As a railway they may be in effect pre-approved in some respects - to be sorted out with the council no doubt.

I have just come back from having a look a this site it would seem that what is left of the former parcels building at avonmouth is quite solid with a decent roof and chimneys  and some work has been done to the pointing and lead work on them in the last few years so all in all it does not look like its in danger of falling over the site has good access to both the platform on the side and the road and footpath on the end near to the level crossing  one thing that does not show up in the pictures is the recent addition of a secure cage for the storage of cycles and at the time of my visit this was open but was not being used the building is in keeping with the style of the area and to be fair is the only real part of any railway structure that remains on the site the platform on the other side not being anything to speak of
       WP.

Indeed - and may I offer you my own very warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, Kempis.  ;D

I shall post further on this topic this evening, when I've caught up with the subsequent discussion.  :-[

Thank you both for your welcome. And -- I should have said in my first post -- greetings to all. I've enjoyed reading the Coffee Shop for quite a while.


No login needed -- but I think the site may go offline in the small hours. Indeed, I'm not sure whether my own comment posted successfully, since all comments made have now disappeared.


Yes -- that was quick, and a relief -- but it's evidently no more than the first stage, since Network Rail may come back with answers to the points raised by the Council.


That's very much my thought too.


That's good to know. If the building is in reasonable condition, there is (in my view) no need to destroy it, even if a use cannot be found in the immediate future. Even in its current state, the building contributes to the visual amenity of the station.

Thanks to all who have objected. I'll try and find out if there's a way in which we can be notified if Network Rail applies to the Council again to take it further.

Looks like it could make an ideal Model Railway club or Scout Hut etc.

The Council's decision on Network Rail's application was covered in today's Bristol Post:


Full story here:

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Temporary-reprieve-Victorian-railway-station/story-24566983-detail/story.html (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Temporary-reprieve-Victorian-railway-station/story-24566983-detail/story.html)

There's also a petition -- Don't Demolish Avonmouth Station! -- started by Charlotte Leslie MP and local councillors Matt Melias and Wayne Harvey:


Details here:

http://avonmouthstation.bristolpetitions.com/ (http://avonmouthstation.bristolpetitions.com/)

Hang on a mo.

Haven't Bristol City Council merely objected to the method of demolition, rather than objected to Network Rail demolishing a building on their land?

I'm all for a stay of execution to see if a use can be found for the building, but I also fully understand Network Rail not wishing to spend money maintaining a building that is no longer of any use. Ambivalent best describes how I feel about the building's future. Should Network Rail be spending money on it for a potential 'jam tomorrow' project that has neither funding or a coherent plan?

It might be used for this, it could be used for that... Only now are such ideas being posited. Where were those ideas when the building wasn't under threat of demolition?

I discussed this today with someone who is big in preserving and improving railway property.

He said that this building is in very poor condition indeed (you can get a hand between brickwork and window frames in some parts, evidently.) He thought the whole building was beyond saving, but that some features could be saved and work.

That does not appear to be the case  I have been to Avonmouth to see for myself ( see previous post above ) and find that the building remains quite solid I have however not been able to gain access to the inside .

There are most unfortunate incidents in the recent history of rail in this area where a proposed change has only come to the attention of the local community very late in the day.  Of particular heartfelt significance was the 2005 Greater Western Franchise - one sentence on page 72 of around 150 that reduced the services between Swindon and Westbury to 2 each way per day (just 2 northbound, nothing southbound on Sundays) which only came to the attention of people who relied on the previous service after the consultation was closed.

I don't know how well know about the Avonmouth building is, nor what its true use, practicality and cost is, nor its current condition - opinions differ - but I do celebrate that there appears to be a discussion ongoing to help ensure the right outcome, perhaps involving a wider set of participants than knew about it last month.

NR have resubmitted their application.

In their covering letter they state:


Given that NR don't actually need to ask permission to demolish, and that they have now fulfilled their obligation to state details of the hours and method of demolition, I think we can safely call this a lost cause.

Rather reluctantly, but realistically, Red Squirrel, I'm now inclined to agree with your conclusion.  :(

As seen at dawn on 17th November:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/DSCF1690_zpsc0238486.jpg)

In daylight on 18th November:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/DSCF1811_zps4d8c4b5f.jpg)

Detail:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/DSCF1817_zps5a05cedc.jpg)

Apologies for not having posted recently -- a combination of computer failure and Christmas travels have kept me offline for a while.

Network Rail's second planning application to demolish the station was granted just before Christmas.

However, efforts to save the building are continuing, and Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways (FOSBR) and others are organising an event at Avonmouth station tomorrow to publicise the proposed demolition. While Charlotte Leslie is unable to join us, I understand Cllr Melias will be present. Details are as follows:
 
Where: At Avonmouth station.
When:  Friday 16 January 2015.  Time: from 10 a.m. to 10.30 a.m.
 
Trains to the station:
Train leaves Bristol Temple Meads at 0916, arriving at Avonmouth at 09.40.
Return train at 10.34 from Avonmouth to Temple Meads.

All are welcome. We're hoping for press coverage, including on Radio Bristol's breakfast show tomorrow morning.

I also understand there have been some discussions about the station between Network Rail and the West of England Partnership (the nearest we have to a local transport authority in the area).

Although not my MP, I will email Charlotte Lesile to ask her to keep campaigning for a change of mind.

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-30845919):

A week or so ago there was a lorry parked up with safety fencing on the back. It was being unloaded as I boarded my train to Temple Meads. I thought then that the demolition process was underway - first stage, fence off the building.

Seems not. Stay of execution...?

This morning's event was well attended, and BBC Radio Bristol's coverage can be found (for the next 29 days) here (advance clip to 2:10:40):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gf96m (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gf96m)

For the record, Bristol City Council's approval of Network Rail's second planning application to demolish the building (given on 19 December 2014) can be found on the Council's Planning Online website (link in the first post on this thread) under reference 14/05850/N.

I haven't made my mind up on this one. The building will not be used as a station building again. MetroWest Phase 1 or 2 will probably bring both platfroms back into regular use, but a couple of shelters is all that we can expect to shield passengers from the elephants.

The railway has many a derelict building beside it, with no obvious use or prospect, but not worth demolishing because that costs money. Flax Bourton springs to mind, and a platform at Brislington station remains visible. It isn't that long ago that the Avonmouth building was rented to the barber, and I find it hard to believe that it has gone from rentable to dangerous in such a short period of time. The docks are getting busier, the railway is getting much busier, and there is more to come, so why is NR in such a hurry to level it, rather than tart it up and rent it again, or sell it to someone on a long lease, so as to retain the land?

It isn't an object of great intrinsic beauty, except as a part of the historic railway - which does make it potentially important in my book. For that reason, my default position will be that it should stay, unless there is a very good reason, not backed by research intended to prove the desired result, that it should go.

If you look up the planning bumf, you'll probably come to the same conclusion as I did at Reply No.17 above - half the building was used by a barber, whilst the other half went to rack and ruin.

I'm always a bit sceptical of 'experts' with a vested interest who say things like 'if it wasn't for the woodworm holding hands it would have collapsed by now', but I think we have to trust the Victorian Society and the Railway Heritage Trust when they say that the building may be beyond saving - much as I'd like to see it kept.

To implement that, you'd need to locate some legislation that protects it. I don't think planning law ever does that (though I've not read it all, obviously). This applications certainly has nothing to do with that - it's an enquiry as to what conditions will apply to the process of demolition and to what happens to the site afterwards.

As I understand it it would only have protection if it were listed or in a conservation area. 

Fishguard & Goodwick station is in a conservation area, but that didn't save it*. I hope you have more luck saving the Avonmouth station building.

* admittedly, in that case I visited the building and have to agree that it was beyond repair, except perhaps one wall and the chimney.

Interestingly, at the old Winscombe station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winscombe_railway_station) (on the Cheddar Valley Line), the brick wall frontage of part of the station buildings has been laid out on the ground, as a sort of one-dimensional replica of its former glory.

I wouldn't advocate protection by force of law. If a way could be found to make use of the building without such a bill as to put fares up, then that way should be taken. If it is honestly beyond redemption at a reasonable cost, then NR might find the plot of land it stands on to be of more use.

Just a quick thought. When (and if) the demolition finally looks imminent, might it be an idea to message as many heritage railway societies as possible to see if they want take the building for themselves. There have been a fair few cases of heritage railways doing this. Perhaps the word should go out now, to give them time to look at it.

The Helston (Cornwall) heritage railway replied saying the tip off I sent them would be passed to their team. They are an "up and coming" society that I hoped might be able to use it if Network Rail don't shift in their stance.

Quoting (unusually) a full email from my mailbox as Christina has copied a lot of people and also asked for help in getting people to look at this further.


Follow ups from others closer to this than I am are very welcome - I post this with limited knowledge.   Also please let me know if you would like me to post / forward intermediate information (one document in particular has been widely circulated, but isn't to my knowledge cleared for publication)