Great Western Coffee Shop

Whilst passing the time at Reading station I started wondering about how the FGW HSTs were purchased all those years ago. I can remember how long they have been around but do remember travelling on them in the late 1970s

Did they have leasing in those days ?i wonder what the book life of these were and who owns them now?

Far too much time on my hands..maybe I should read "Bradshaws" or O S Nocks "two miles a minute"!

The HSTs were originally built by and owned by BR, most are now owned by rolling stock leasing companies though a handful are owned outright by First group rather than being leased.

If my memory serves me, 1976.

The HST's were built by BREL.  Funded by the government.

The proto type ran in revenue earning service in 1975 with the production trains entering service through 76, the Western Region was the first to have HST's for the Bristol and South Wales services.

Part of the introduction was new servicing sheds OCC and St Philips Marsh.  I spent some of my apprenticeship in early 1977 in the HST shed at OOC the main event each week was a "C" exam there were not too many sets in service

4th October to be precise. Remember going down to the Rover Way bridge in Cardiff to see the first ones pass through. That was what triggered my interest in railways.

A video I found last year and uploaded to youtube.

British Rail InterCity 125 Inaugural Passenger Service 4th October 1976. This is a news report from 4th October 1976 as broadcast on 'Points West', the BBC regional news magazine for the West Of England. Apologies for the poor quality. The video has been converted from a RealPlayer format, with the original being only 240x200 in size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySyFzWgLt_4

I can remember when I was still a single figure age, seeing them at Paddington in the 80's. This was before the days of the trundle-speed departures from PAD and with the original Paxman-Valenta engines still firmly in place, absolutely deafening as the rear power car passed the end of the platform flat out!  ;D

When they were used for a while on the North Wales services from Euston, early 90's IIRC, I can recall one occasion when being on a set that left Euston on a single engine after failing at the platform, and arrived in N.Wales on time and possibly made up the delay caused by the original failure - a reflection of how well (over?) engineered these trains were in the first place...

Spotting as a young teen at Taunton in the mid 80s I remember and loved that deafening Paxman-Valenta turbocharger scream.

Then, girls and beer got in the way, and my enthusiasm for all things rail related waned for some years. Sadly, my interest was only rekindled at the twilight of P-V running on the Western. My last ever trip between two P-Vs was with Grand Central in 2010. Grand Central being the last passenger train operator to run the iconic engines.

Let's just hope that, along with the prototype HST power car 41001, currently undergoing restoration, a few Class 43s can be re-re-engined back to P-Vs (I believe there are a few 'screamers' squirreled away) and preserved.

The HST is an important part of the UK's railway history - the poster boy for BR in the 70s and 80s. Even, dare I say, the saviour for long distance rail travel, against fierce competition from road and air, in that period. The pragmatists at the British Rail Research Division in Derby went with evolution over revolution to give us the HST. The more cavalier bods tried revolution and failed quite spectacularly with the APT. In the political climate of the time pragmatism and evolution was always going to win over idealism and revolution.

Ossie Nock is well worth reading for a full history of the introduction of the original HST's. Not printed since the very early 80's so a rare find. I have a copy  :P



Wasn't it always so; beer and girls, or should that be girls and beer ??!

I'd have to disagree slightly with you about the APT, it was just too far ahead of it's time. As a proof of concept it worked and the technology did ultimately give us the Pendolino and various other tilting trains across Europe. It just never really enjoyed the support of the government/economy/travel trends of the time.

I do hope that one or two examples of the class 43 can be preserved and restored back to 1970's condition as it is a very significant part of our rail history and spearheaded high speed rail travel, along with the TGV and a little earlier the Shinkansen in Japan. One HST power car really deserves a position in the NRM along with the prototype - don't forget they broke (in 1987) and still hold the speed record for a diesel-electric train.

I was at Bath University at that time and [whisper this quietly!] a trainspotter! Wednesday afternoons were always clear so I popped across to Swindon for the afternoon of 13th October 1976 and attached are a couple of piccies from that day....

An hour long video from the early 1990s looking back at the design, manufacture and early years in service of the HST.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1EK1Md5-mc

There is much detail at the start about the technical aspects of the power cars.

From the 14 minute mark in the video there is a very high speed cab view from Paddington to Bristol TM, taking up 6 minutes of the video. Average speed 1500mph! After that the focus is on the passenger comforts. That's followed by detail about the introduction of HSTs to the East Coast Main Line. Next, there are plenty of action shots of HSTs across the country as well as detail about their introduction on the Midland Main Line. Toward the end of the video there is detail about the maintenance regime.

Well worth a watch.

Interesting to see the old parcels platform behind 252 001 nearly 30 years before it became Platform 4.  What a difference that made to the Great Western Mainline.

Many thanks for posting this link BNM - that's my evening viewing sorted!

You can also see, from PhilWakely's picture of 43015, how the aerodynamics affected the diesel exhaust flow over rear power cars, coating the cab and windscreen in diesel soot.

I believe this problem was eventually addressed, but not completely eradicated, by slightly repositioning the exhausts and fitting some small cowls/deflectors. Even today with the much cleaner burning MTU engines there is still often a noticeable coating of oily diesel particulates on cabs and windscreens.

I seem to remember that someone involved in the design of the power cars disliked the original front design (show in the first of the two pictures earlier) and changed it at the last minute hoping it would be too late for anyone to object.

What ever the cause of the redesign - much prefer "version 2" that we have today.

Wasn't it something to do with one man vs two man crew held up by the RMT(or aslef) in the early 70's? :-\
The original HST was set up for one man working, whereas the revised style (the one we have now) is two man.
I think the RMT input delayed the introduction of the HST for a year or two ?.

HSTs were double manned when they started this was gradually errode to I think above 100 mph running. So for a while you had West Country HSTs double mamned between Reading and Paddington.

Also of course to keep time they had to run at 125 whenever they could. With 100 mph sprint averages between Bath and Reading.

The front of the prototype power cars was based on an streamlined nosecone made by BR's Plastics Development Unit at Derby and attached to an AL6 electric locomotive (now Class 86) E3173 in the late 1960s for high speed aerodynamic testing. This locomotive was also used for the trials of the Helicoil secondary suspension, used for the HST power cars (and used in airbag form in practically every bogie ever since) and so earned the name Zebedee after the TV Magic Roundabout character.

After construction of the prototypes ASLEF (not the RMT which didn't exist then) 'blacked' the trains for a year because the locomotives were not designed for two man operation. Finally test running started under a special agreement which saw the production trains equipped with two proper seats in the cab.

Before the locomotives went into production the nose was re-styled for several reasons. Firstly to meet ASLEF's demands that trains still had to have a fireman so the seating and window arrangements needed to be changed; development made it possible to manufacture larger sheets of armoured glass for the windscreens and the BR Design Panel thought that the trains need a more impressive appearance than the prototypes. The Chief Mechanical Engineer was persuaded that this was good idea and BR engaged Kenneth Grange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Grange) to re-work the frontal appearance.

The rest, as they say, is history!

A picture of 'Zebedee':

http://www.traintesting.com/images/zebedee_at_cheddington.jpg
(Copyright precludes me posting it on this forum)

From this page:

http://www.traintesting.com/high_speed_testing.htm

There's several items in the Railway Archive on HST, and APT too, if you want some homework interesting reading.

There's a technical briefing from August 1977 (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=537), full of facts if rather Boys' Own in its style. Once you've found this on the search page, you should see a list of links to related documents.

There's also several government policy and planning documents, showing the financial state of the railways (and they were in a state) and transport in general. From 1976 there's a consultation paper (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1529) and its technical volume 2 (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1530), then in 1977 the resulting white paper on transport (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1518) (often linked to Tony Crosland's name as minister) and one on rail alone - HMG's response to the Commons committee (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=410) and the BR Board (wrongly archived as November 1978).

That of course gives the financial and political background while APT was being developed. APT is only represented by a few leaflets, but there is more on http://www.apt-p.com/.

Oh, and I stumbled across a mention of the first class 50s being leased from English Electric for a while. I think this would be a way to deliver them earlier than BRB's capital budget could cope with, for whatever reason. Not unusual, and involving credit at a neutral rate as it suited both parties. However, at that date (1967) I suspect that large-scale leasing as a financial ploy was unknown.

Great picture of Test Car 4 with the needle off the gauge at 120 mph - health and safety ?? :o

Am I right that 40 mins start stop for the 71m 42 ch and a bit miles from Bath to Reading is around 105 average. Corrected can't multiply 35 by 3

Also saw specialy shortened " Top of the Pops" beat the Lonsdon Bristol record. We watched it leave Padd on the TV and then got all the local kids on our gararge roof and watched it streak by, no trees in those days! Then back to the TV to watch it arrive in Bristol.

......shame about the chap they used to promote it though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvI5mp_8g1w

When I first saw this thread I wondered just how long it would be before that creep got into the conversation !
not what you would call Peter Parkers best idea with the benefit of hindsight
which is a shame when you think of just how well the HST has done us for all these years .

I agree - but like you say at the time we didn't know any different :)

I'm sure FGW will "fix it"  ;D

I remember a school trip just before xmas 1976 (I think) where we went to London from Bristol on a saturday school trip to see Madame Tussauds and the London Plantetarium (no longer operating). The trains were brand new and the automatic doors between passenger carriages were a big novelty for an eleven year old group of kids from the country! I seem to remember a speed display in the carriage as well with a big cheer when it went unto 125mph.

I didn't realise the London Planetarium is no more. Went digging and found this quote from Madame Tussauds at the time of the closure:-

"I do appreciate the importance of the Planetarium as a tool to learning but this is simply not the field within which our brand stands today."

So why didn't they sell it then rather than destroy one of the best educational destinations for school trips in London.

There is one now at the Royal Observatory (http://www.rmg.co.uk/whats-on/planetarium-shows).

Taking this thread out on a subtle tangent, when do we think the last HST will be withdrawn ?

Because it is serious tourist real estate....

That would be a very interesting poll!

Noting the transfer of some units to Aberdeen -> Inverness for a new life there.   The oldest stock in use on the main network is now around 75 years old ... if the HSTs last that long are you looking at a final withdrawal in around 2050.  But would we start seeing "Trigger's Brush" by then, with the only original parts remaining being the design?

Just as a matter of interest what is the 75 year old stock that is still on the network ?.

Isle of Wight ex tube (38) stock.

Thankyou for that.

I expect that a few will still be running in at least 20 years time on the national network, and for longer still on heritage railways.
As electrification slowly spreads there is a reluctance to build any more diesel trains, so HSTs may carry on for decades yet on remaining non electrified routes.

According to a thread on uk.groups, the HSTs are off to Scotland when released by FGW

Todays Railways UK (December 2014 Issue 156) has an article on the NR Western Route Study headed Last HSTs To Go By 2043.  It's based on rolling stock requirements up to that date.

One of the interesting things that the DfT does (and thank goodness) is to project ahead on rolling stock requirements, as well as on infrastructure requirements via the Route Study.  I would suspect that the article, and the route study, may draw on that work.

But ... who can predict what growth rates we'll see in the next 30 years?  The stock requirements were, I recall, based on growth considerably below the typical rate for recent years. Passenger / user group experts and transport academics broadly agree that the recent growth rate won't be sustained over the very long term, but they suggested that it would be somewhat below the current rate rather that considerably below it.  And whilst the two views might not vary things much over 2 or 3 years, they sure as heck do over 30.

I can understand government erring on the side of caution. To commit to heavy investment, at a time of fiscal prudence, with the risk of providing a solution to a stock problem that doesn't exist and having lots of spare trains in decades to come is something they want to avoid, after all.  Yet perhaps they have been too cautious.

Some examples?

Growth at 7.5% - the sort of thing we've seen in a number of recent years.
100 passengers this year.  143 passengers in 5 years.  206 passengers in 10 years. 425 passengers in 20 years

Growth at 4.5% - the lower end of passenger and academic expectations
100 passengers this year.  124 passengers in 5 years.  155 passengers in 10 years. 241 passengers in 20 years

Growth at 2.5% - the sort of thing the DfT is thinking may happen (as I recall)
100 passengers this year.  113 passengers in 5 years.  128 passengers in 10 years. 164 passengers in 20 years

So in 2034, that means that the independent experts are saying there will be a 46% shortfall (at least - that's their low figure) in capacity.  So what a relief if the HSTs can carry on for a few more decades  ;)

Well, that is an assumption of the study. But if you were asked to do a study of the railways in 2043, what would you assume about HSTs? We all know they that, even re-engined, they will be truly life-expired by then.

For comparison here are some figures from 1981 (costs for 1978) for HST and other new stock: purchase price  and "standard working life". Of course that's just an accounting figure: the time over which to depreciate the initial value or amortise the cost. You would expect then to last longer, after which they are "free" (in accounting terms). What isn't shown here is the maintenance cost, and how that varies with age. When new, HSTs had much higher maintenance costs than predicted, and while it may have gone down a bit will go up again with time.

(The figures come from "Review of Main Line Electrification" (BRB 1981), from Railway Archive (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoTBRB_Electrification1981.pdf). Interesting in its own right, for contemporary views on electrification and future demand, it also contains a set of cost and other assumptions in convenient simplified form.)

We were discussing that decision, (i.e. HSTs to Scotland) a month ago in the thread about the Scotrail franchise?  Surely the FGW HSTs are the only ones that meet the timescales announced by Transport Scotland.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14704.msg162845#msg162845

Not just internet rumour. Part of the franchise agreement for Abellio ScotRail, and they've already signed preliminary lease agreements with the ROSCOs.

Taking them from which date?

Google is your friend. All I'll say is they won't be taking them until FGW have finished with them.  ;)

Very Interesting Table posted by stuviing.

Although it doesn't give the cost of a hauled coach one can reasonably assumme that a Clss 87 and hauled coaches is the cheapest option for sub 125 running. At 0.543 for an 87 and say 0.120 per coach (based on DMU firgures). You get a loco and  10 coaches all for 1.743 for more seats, even if they align with the windows, than an HST at 1.818.

Don't forget that those figures are *over* 30 years old.....(1981 vintage)

If you want to convert those 1978 figures to more recent ones, there would be a choice of indices depending on how you word the question to be answered. The first choice would be a GDP deflator (what used to be called the implied index of total home costs). This is the index that converts to a notional inflation-proof money, using which the GDP increase in volume terms matches the increase in money terms.

This does not tell you what today's price would be - no index can, and anyway the same items could not be made or bought now. It should take out inflation in the sense of how money changes its value, averaged over the whole economy, not just over retail spending. Subject, of course, to the difficulties of estimating GDP in volume terms.

Anyway, the factor from 1978-9 to 2012-13 is 24.279. (Source www.gov.uk/statistics.)

I would suggest that the ratio of costs for the different types of roilling stock will be much the same. A hauled coach should always be cheaper than a MU, not having to add motors  (electric or diesel) and control gear. Electric locos with solid state control gear and AC motors may even be cheaper in comparison to modern diesels due to the need to meet emmission standards.