Title: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 07, 2014, 20:30:27 From The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/first-lose-scotrail-franchise-to-dutch-firm-abellio-1-3565659):
Quote DUTCH rail firm Abellio is expected to be named tomorrow as winner of the next ^2.5 billion ScotRail franchise, industry sources have told The Scotsman. The offshoot of Dutch national railways will take over the Scottish Government^s biggest contract to run most of the country^s trains for ten years from next April. Current operator FirstGroup had been among five shortlisted bidders, along with National Express, Arriva and Hong Kong operator MTR. Abellio operates three rail franchises in England, including Merseyrail and Northern Rail, which it jointly runs with Serco, which will run the Caledonian Sleeper - also from April. One source said: ^It^s 100 per cent Abellio^. Another said: ^They have been out and about with an air of confidence. All the talk has been about them.^ The firm have been the most mentioned of the five bidders in industry circles pretty much since the shortlist was announced last November. Abellio was also the first to announce its interest in the franchise a year earlier, when UK managing director Dominic Booth said its experience and ^enormous pool of expertise^ well positioned it to run the franchise. He added: ^Northern Rail in particular shares many of the characteristics of the ScotRail service.^ Rail boom ScotRail has seen a boom in rail travel since the current franchise started ten years ago, with passenger numbers increasing by one third to 87 million in the year to March. This is expected to continue to grow with further rail expansion, such as the re-opening of the Borders line next September, and longer and faster trains on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow route from 2016-19. The Scottish Government^s Transport Scotland agency would say only that transport minister Keith Brown will make a ^major transport announcement^ at Waverley Station in Edinburgh tomorrow morning. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: TonyK on October 07, 2014, 20:55:58 I get Abelio confused with that horrible disease that is in all the news these days.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: anthony215 on October 07, 2014, 21:07:34 If this is true then I think First will be going all out to retain the GW franchise when it comes up in a couple of years.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 07, 2014, 21:16:39 If this is true then I think First will be going all out to retain the GW franchise when it comes up in a couple of years. More likely five years, rather than a couple, before Greater Western is re-tendered. It wouldn't surprise me if, following this announcement from Scotland, First Group and the DfT are putting the signatures on the 5 year direct award contract for FGW to 'carry on regardless', as we speak. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 07, 2014, 21:32:44 The Scotsman appear to have got the scoop, but other news outlets are now running with story.
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29531099): Quote First Group 'to lose Scotrail franchise' to Dutch firm (http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56963000/jpg/_56963169_006343597-1.jpg) FirstGroup currently holds the Scotrail franchise Industry sources have told BBC Scotland that First Group is set to lose the franchise to operate ScotRail services. An official announcement will be made on Wednesday by Transport Minister Keith Brown. It is understood that the Dutch rail operator Abellio has won the ^2.5bn franchise. It has already been announced that First Group, based in Aberdeen, is to lose the franchise to run Caledonian Sleeper services. The company has been operating ScotRail services since August 2004. ScotRail employs almost 5,000 staff and operates 2,400 train services every weekday. The current franchise arrangements end on 31 March 2015. The new franchise will be for a term of up to 10 years. FirstGroup had been competing against Abellio, Arriva, MTR, and National Express for the right to operate the service. Strong suspicion that the stock image the BBC have chosen is not from Scotland. ::) Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: BBM on October 07, 2014, 21:34:28 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29531099):
Quote First Group 'to lose Scotrail franchise' to Dutch firm Industry sources have told BBC Scotland that First Group is set to lose the franchise to operate ScotRail services. An official announcement will be made on Wednesday by Transport Minister Keith Brown. It is understood that the Dutch rail operator Abellio has won the ^2.5bn franchise. It has already been announced that First Group, based in Aberdeen, is to lose the franchise to run Caledonian Sleeper services. The company has been operating ScotRail services since August 2004. ScotRail employs almost 5,000 staff and operates 2,400 train services every weekday. The current franchise arrangements end on 31 March 2015. The new franchise will be for a term of up to 10 years. FirstGroup had been competing against Abellio, Arriva, MTR, and National Express for the right to operate the service. (sorry, just saw Bignosemac beat me to it!) Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Timmer on October 07, 2014, 21:41:30 A big deal for First to lose Scotrail with the big prize of East Coast set to be announced next month of which First stand a good chance of winning?
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 07, 2014, 21:55:26 I'm sure they'll be hoping so. They're down to two franchises now.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: John R on October 07, 2014, 22:39:14 (sorry, just saw Bignosemac beat me to it!) Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 07, 2014, 22:54:59 I'll give you the scoop John R. ;D
I started posting the Scotsman story around 8.00pm, after a heads up on Facebook from a (until recently, Scotrail) train driver friend. Then I was waylaid by a telephone call from Mumsy. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Red Squirrel on October 07, 2014, 23:14:48 I'll give you the scoop John R. ;D I started posting the Scotsman story around 8.00pm, after a heads up on Facebook from a (until recently, Scotrail) train driver friend. Then I was waylaid by a telephone call from Mumsy. Glad to see you got your priorities right! ;D Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: eightf48544 on October 08, 2014, 10:50:55 Very interesting isn't Scotrail devolved to Scotland? isn't First Scottish?
So after the vote Salmond is giving it to a Dutch company. Still leaves the Wolmar question, "What is Feanchisng for?" open. East Coast award now even more political. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: ellendune on October 08, 2014, 11:09:27 Ah but hasn't he put it back into the public sector. Isn't it now a nationalised industry - albeit a Dutch one!
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: ChrisB on October 08, 2014, 11:27:49 Confirmed. On the BBC website now (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29531099)
Quote FirstGroup loses ScotRail franchise FirstGroup has confirmed it has lost the franchise to operate ScotRail services from the spring of 2015. An official announcement will be made on Wednesday by Transport Minister Keith Brown. It is understood that the Dutch rail operator Abellio has won the ^2.5bn franchise to run services for 10 years. ScotRail said it was disappointed FirstGroup's bid had not succeeded and it would work with the new franchisee to ensure a smooth transition. It has already been announced that FirstGroup, based in Aberdeen, is to lose the franchise to run Caledonian Sleeper services. 'Credible plans' The company has been operating ScotRail services since August 2004. In a statement, FirstGroup chief executive Tim O'Toole said the firm was "very proud" of its success in operating First ScotRail. He added: "We have kept our promises and more for 10 years, delivering record levels of service including during this extraordinary summer in Scotland with the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup. "Our bid would have delivered even greater levels of service and growth, and we are disappointed we will not have the opportunity to implement the credible plans we submitted, building on our record of improvement across every measurable score, for the benefit of ScotRail's passengers and employees." The firm said it was still in with the Department for Transport (DfT) over the First TransPennine Express and First Great Western franchises. ScotRail employs almost 5,000 staff and operates 2,400 train services every weekday. The current franchise arrangements end on 31 March 2015. The new franchise will be for a term of up to 10 years. Union anger FirstGroup had been competing against Abellio, Arriva, MTR, and National Express for the right to operate the service. Union bosses reacted angrily to reports Abellio was to be handed the contract. RMT general secretary Mick Cash told BBC Radio Scotland's Good Morning Scotland programme: "We believe public ownership is better, is more efficient and it's safer and it gives you great accountability. "All you're seeing in private ownership is that money's being sucked out of the industry and given to the private sector shareholders, or in this case is going to go to subsidise the Dutch railways." Manuel Cortes, leader of the TSSA rail union, described the the possibility of an Abellio franchise as "a slap in the face for Scots rail passengers". He said: "Only a few weeks ago, the Scottish people were promised the power to run a publicly owned railway which would put them first, ahead of private rail firms. "Now the Scottish government wants to hand that railway to a firm run by Dutch state railways." Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 14:45:02 First Group's full statement (http://otp.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=450524&cid=858) regarding the loss of ScotRail to Abellio:
Quote PR Newswire London, October 8 8 October 2014 FIRSTGROUP PLC ("FirstGroup" or "The Group") STATEMENT RE: SCOTRAIL FRANCHISE FirstGroup, the leading transport operator in the UK and North America, has been informed by Transport Scotland that it has not been awarded the new ScotRail franchise. Commenting, Tim O'Toole, FirstGroup's Chief Executive, said: "We are very proud of our success in operating First ScotRail and our team were recognised last week, once again, as Rail Operator of the Year. We have kept our promises and more for ten years, delivering record levels of service including during this extraordinary summer in Scotland with the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup. Our bid would have delivered even greater levels of service and growth, and we are disappointed we will not have the opportunity to implement the credible plans we submitted, building on our record of improvement across every measurable score, for the benefit of ScotRail's passengers and employees. "We shall continue to operate First ScotRail until the new franchise commences on 1 April 2015. Until that time we will deliver further enhancements to trains and stations including further free Wi-Fi and continue important work to enable the extension of smart ticketing across the whole country and the opening of the Borders Railway next year. "Today's news does not alter the Group's stated medium-term targets. As one of the largest and most experienced rail operators we are actively participating in franchise competitions with the objective of achieving earnings on a par with the last round of franchising, with an acceptable level of risk. We are in negotiations with the Department for Transport (DfT) to operate the First TransPennine Express franchise until February 2016, and continue discussions with the DfT in respect of a potential longer direct award to operate First Great Western, our largest franchise, over the period when a substantial programme of infrastructure upgrades and introduction of new trains will take place on the network." FirstGroup has operated the First ScotRail franchise since 2004 and during that time has: * Provided more services and introduced new trains: Scotland now has its biggest ever timetable of 2,300 services each day, up by 300 since 2004. In addition 215 extra coaches have been introduced. This has helped to attract new passengers, with customer numbers rising to more than 86 million - an increase of 34% since 2004. * Improved service quality: Punctuality and reliability scores reached a record high this year of 95.3% - up from 84% in 2004, and customer satisfaction is at its highest ever level at 90% - eight points higher than the UK average and six points higher than in 2004. * Invested in Scotland's rail services: more than ^82 million invested since 2004 including station improvements of ^56m and improvements to rolling stock of ^26.3m. More than 130 trains and 50 stations have been fitted with free Wi-Fi. * Invested in our people to deliver performance and customer service: Employee numbers increased from 3,500 to 4,900 including nearly 300 more drivers. We achieved Investors in People Gold status, the largest UK Company to do so, and we launched a Modern Apprenticeship in Customer Service - the first of its kind in the rail industry. * Awarded Rail Operator of the Year at the National Transport Awards on 2 October 2014 for the third time in six years and also current Rail Business of the Year. * Forged effective partnerships: First ScotRail was one of the first train operating companies to sign an alliance agreement with Network Rail, resulting in savings including the delivery of the industry-leading Paisley Canal line electrification project within 6 months whilst reducing the costs from ^28m to ^12m. * Delivered Scotland's successful year of events in 2014: First ScotRail carried more than 1.1 million people to the Commonwealth Games, and 50,000 to the Ryder Cup as well as Edinburgh Festivals and Bannockburn Live. Notes to Editors: About FirstGroup plc FirstGroup plc (LSE: FGP.L) is the leading transport operator in the UK and North America. With revenues of more than ^6.7 billion and around 117,000 employees in 2013/14, we transported around 2.5 billion passengers last year. Each of our five divisions is a leader in its field: First Student is the largest provider of student transportation in North America with a fleet of around 49,000 yellow school buses, First Transit is one of the largest providers of outsourced transit management and contracting services in the US, while Greyhound is the only national operator of scheduled intercity coach services across North America. In the UK, FirstGroup is one of Britain's largest bus operators running a fleet of some 6,400 buses, and we are one of the largest operators of passenger rail services in the UK, carrying more than 330 million passengers last year, with experience of running all types of rail network. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 14:53:28 And the full text of the official announcement from Transport Scotland (http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/new-deal-transform-rail-services):
Quote New deal to transform rail services New trains, revamped stations and a huge range of other benefits will overhaul the ScotRail franchise. Transport Minister Keith Brown today announced that the competition to win the single biggest contract let by the Scottish Government has been won by operator Abellio. The company will invest millions in providing an improved service and superior facilities for passengers and a better deal for staff. Included in the new franchise, worth up to ^6billion and launching on April 1, 2015, are measures to make train travel more attractive across the board. There will be a break clause for the franchise after 5 years. For passengers - ^ free wifi on all trains ^ new approach to cycling with more than 3,500 parking spaces and bike-hire at a number of stations. ^ 23% more carriages across the network, ^ reduced fares for jobseekers, ^ high-speed intercity diesel trains, with over a third more seats, ^ advance fares of ^5 between any two Scottish cities, ^ Great Scenic Railway scheme bringing more tourists to the north, the south west and the Borders, ^ major shopping developments at the stations at Aberdeen and Inverness. For staff ^ ^ a commitment to earnings of at least the living wage for all staff and subcontractors, ^ at least 100 apprenticeships, ^ guarantee of no compulsory redundancies throughout the life of the contract, ^ rail staff pensions and travel rights protected, ^ introduction of guaranteed trade union representation on every franchise Board meeting. Announcing the new contract, Mr Brown said: ^The Scottish Government believes good public transport improves the lives of the people and the economy of Scotland. Following extensive consultation by the Scottish Government, Scotland^s railway has attracted a world leading contract to deliver for rail staff and passengers. ^We^ve already ensured that regulated rail fares will stay in line with inflation or less, and Abellio has come up with some truly innovative ways to make rail even more affordable, such as the ^5 intercity fare anywhere in Scotland and reduced ticket prices for jobseekers and those newly in work, as well as a Price Promise for guaranteed best value fares. ^There will be benefits all over the country, with faster services between all our cities, new trains in the Central Belt, a Great Scenic Railway scheme bringing more tourists to the north, the south west and the Borders and major shopping developments at the stations at Aberdeen and Inverness. Glasgow will be the new base for Abellio in the UK with around 200 jobs. ^Trains will have more space for prams and wheelchairs, there will be rigorous new service quality control measures ensuring cleaner trains and improved right-time measures. We^ll see later services for concerts and events and improved integration with bus, ferry and air timetables, alongside a ^520,000 Station Travel Planning ^Plus^ programme and a Journey Companion app with door-to-door travel info, to ensure passengers can get straight from A-B. ^Every single Scottish station will have CCTV and passengers will enjoy improved waiting facilities at 40 stations, extra retail facilities at up to 50 stations, and hundreds of new car parking spaces. ^All employees including employees of subcontractors will be paid at least the living wage and a new Scottish training academy will be established. ^And for the wider community, unused station buildings will be transformed into premises for start-up businesses, locally-sourced food and drink will provide improved on-train catering, ScotRail training facilities will be available to charities free of charge and the franchisee will pay out ^500,000 every year for rail-related community schemes. ^These exciting plans mean that our railways will continue to be innovative, passenger-led and a hugely important driver in Scotland^s long-term success and sustainability. ^This is a contract that will benefit the whole of Scotland.^ Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: ChrisB on October 08, 2014, 15:17:59 How many ^5 advances I wonder - which must be a loss-maker....
^500,000 annually for community rail-related schemes....wow. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 15:18:35 And Abellio's announcement (http://www.abellio.com/scotrail):
Quote Abellio is delighted to announce that it has been selected by Transport Scotland to operate the next ScotRail franchise, starting April 2015. ScotRail provides passenger train services throughout Scotland with inter-city, regional and suburban rail services across the Scottish national rail network. Jeff Hoogesteger, CEO of Abellio Group, said of the decision ^This is a huge day for Abellio and indeed the Netherlands which has such a rich history of commercial and cultural trade with Scotland. Abellio is delighted and incredibly excited to have been given this opportunity to manage Scotland^s national rail network." Abellio acquires and operates public transport franchises with the aim of consolidating the position of NS in the European market as it becomes more deregulated. Abellio currently has rail and bus transport operations in Great Britain and Germany and through Qbuzz in the Netherlands. The new ScotRail franchise will strengthen Abellio^s position in the UK Rail industry. Running Scotland^s national railway is a good fit with the NS Groep core network operation in the Netherlands; the characteristics of the two networks are similar in that there is a heavily populated ^central belt^ around Edinburgh and Glasgow with less populated regional areas. With 346 stations, more than 2,000 train services a day, 800 train vehicles and 86.3m passenger journeys per annum the operation is extensive, and again similar in many ways to NS. The franchise length is a minimum of 7 years from 1 April 2015. By mutual consent it can be extended to 10 years following a review during Year 5. Signing of the franchise agreement took place on 7th October 2014, allowing 6 months for mobilisation. A much more detailed press release (.pdf file), listing Abellio's plans for the franchise, can be read at the following link: http://www.abellio.com/sites/default/files/downloads/press_release_abellio_wins_scotrail_1.pdf Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: ChrisB on October 08, 2014, 15:32:10 Quote There will be a break clause for the franchise after 5 years and Quote The franchise length is a minimum of 7 years from 1 April 2015. By mutual consent it can be extended to 10 years following a review during Year 5. Is that the same? Two years to get out if not renewed? Seems rather long....? Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 15:36:43 Porterbrook and Angel will be glad to know they have a market for the HSTs going off lease once the Class 800s and 801s enter service on the East Coast and Greater Western.
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/srhst_zps1fa61923.jpg) How happy the Scots will be with 40+ year old rolling stock is yet to be seen. Refurbishment, buffets and an improved 1st Class offering on these new Scottish InterCity services will be welcomed, I just hope the fleet reliability can be maintained. It's going to require depot expertise in HSTs across Scotland. I doubt the fleet of HSTs required can all be maintained at Edinburgh Craigentinny. The other positive from this is the release of inter urban Class 170s and possibly some 158s. They'll no doubt be snapped up for use south of the border... Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: grahame on October 08, 2014, 16:16:07 ^500,000 annually for community rail-related schemes....wow. Investment in community rail has proven to have a very good payback. It's about making the most of lines which have good services, and seats to be filled. To be admitted to ACoRP as a member, the board requires you to already have a marketable service on a line that needs "putting life into" it (their strap line); the TransWilts was turned down when we applied prior to our service improvements last December, but admitted following the board meeting after the improvements, as it was then deemed "marketable". Scotland has come late to CRPs and designations and ACoRP memberships - there's the first few just come on board recently, and the Scotland team won the overall "prize of prizes" - the winner of winners - at the awards in Scarborough last week. It's fashionable to quote BCRs (Benefit to Cost Ratios). well - for every pound spend on Community Rail, it's been worked out that you get ^4.20 worth or benefits - so that's a BCR or 4.2, which is pretty darned good. Scotland has a long way to catch up on Community Rail - but some CRPs in our FGW area are very well established and have brought astonishing results, so don't be surprised to see this being a growth area in other awards and franchises that may come up in the next year or so. In the FGW area, there are those lines that can continue to grow as they have done for years, there's one quite new CRP, and there are other lines / areas where it's being talked about, or should/could be done. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Rhydgaled on October 08, 2014, 16:23:49 Has any official release actually said "mark 3 coaches", "class 43 locomotives" or "INTERCITY 125"? Or do they just say HST? HST is a potentially ambigous term, the EU definition of which I think is anything capable of 125mph or more.
And do they say how many carriages these 'HSTs' will have? Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: paul7575 on October 08, 2014, 16:27:43 A big deal for First to lose Scotrail with the big prize of East Coast set to be announced next month of which First stand a good chance of winning? The DfT's official line will be that franchises are awarded blind, and that there is no concept of being awarded a franchise as a sort of consolation prize for recent events elsewhere, such as with FCC or Scotrail. Didn't National Express go from something like 9 to 1 over a period? Paul Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 16:37:15 Has any official release actually said "mark 3 coaches", "class 43 locomotives" or "INTERCITY 125"? Or do they just say HST? HST is a potentially ambigous term, the EU definition of which I think is anything capable of 125mph or more. And do they say how many carriages these 'HSTs' will have? Finer details have not been released, but the ScotRail Brochure (http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/images/Rail/ScotRail%20franchise/Scotrail%20Brochure%20October%202014.pdf) released by Transport Scotland in conjunction with the franchise announcement mentions, "Hugely popular high speed trains replacing class 170 trains between cities, with improved comfort, reliability journey times and catering", the artists impression in that brochure just happens to be Class 43+Mk3, and elsewhere it's mentioned that these high speed trains are to be refurbished. The only off lease high speed trains on the horizon are Class 43+Mk3, so I think it's safe to assume that's what they'll be. As for train length, that'll likely be governed by the platform length at Glasgow Queen St. Current maximum on three platforms there would be 2+5. One platform could take 2+7, the others are too short to be of any use. Queen St is however being remodelled as part of the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (EGIP), with longer platforms to be part of that remodelling. Accommodation for eight carriage EMUs on four of the platforms being the stated aim. That would, I suppose, allow for 2+6 HSTs. A big deal for First to lose Scotrail with the big prize of East Coast set to be announced next month of which First stand a good chance of winning? The DfT's official line will be that franchises are awarded blind, and that there is no concept of being awarded a franchise as a sort of consolation prize for recent events elsewhere, such as with FCC or Scotrail. Didn't National Express go from something like 9 to 1 over a period? Paul They did indeed. And in just a matter of weeks First Group's number of franchises has halved. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: ChrisB on October 08, 2014, 16:41:50 Possibly good for the other two, as they'll be ratcheting up their offer to ensure they win these two Direct Awards....
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Network SouthEast on October 08, 2014, 17:47:17 Abellio have also announced that Hitachi are the preferred bidder for 70-80 electric trains for Edinburgh to Glasgow services.
Although DMUs will still be needed in Scotland, it does still lead to the potential of a sizeable cascade of DMUs. I wonder if anything (i.e. more 158s) is being lined up for the new GW franchise? Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Rhydgaled on October 08, 2014, 19:49:51 Has any official release actually said "mark 3 coaches", "class 43 locomotives" or "INTERCITY 125"? Or do they just say HST? HST is a potentially ambigous term, the EU definition of which I think is anything capable of 125mph or more. And do they say how many carriages these 'HSTs' will have? Finer details have not been released, but the ScotRail Brochure (http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/images/Rail/ScotRail%20franchise/Scotrail%20Brochure%20October%202014.pdf) released by Transport Scotland in conjunction with the franchise announcement mentions, "Hugely popular high speed trains replacing class 170 trains between cities, with improved comfort, reliability journey times and catering", the artists impression in that brochure just happens to be Class 43+Mk3, and elsewhere it's mentioned that these high speed trains are to be refurbished. The only off lease high speed trains on the horizon are Class 43+Mk3, so I think it's safe to assume that's what they'll be. As for train length, that'll likely be governed by the platform length at Glasgow Queen St. Current maximum on three platforms there would be 2+5. One platform could take 2+7, the others are too short to be of any use. Queen St is however being remodelled as part of the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (EGIP), with longer platforms to be part of that remodelling. Accommodation for eight carriage EMUs on four of the platforms being the stated aim. That would, I suppose, allow for 2+6 HSTs. I suppose if they are to be 2+6 the acceleration of the IC125s in Scotland shouldn't be too bad, but isn't the claim of reduced journey times a bit dubious given they are geared for 125mph but will be replacing 90/100mph DMUs on routes which probablly don't permitt anything more than 100mph? Sounds like standard class passengers could see better catering on ScotRail services between Edinburgh and Aberdeen/Inverness than on East Coast's London-Inverness service in future when the London trains move over to trolley-only (for standard) IEP units... Abellio have also announced that Hitachi are the preferred bidder for 70-80 electric trains for Edinburgh to Glasgow services. I would like to see more 158s for FirstGW and ATW, and 156s for ATW (for HOWL and west-of-Swansea once the wires reach that city, with ATW then losing their 153s to GW or Northern), but I doubt enough units would be cascaded.Although DMUs will still be needed in Scotland, it does still lead to the potential of a sizeable cascade of DMUs. I wonder if anything (i.e. more 158s) is being lined up for the new GW franchise? Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 20:00:53 Moderator note: Topic has been renamed for present and future discussion on all things ScotRail
There were rumours that the Scottish parliment were looking at cascaded Voyagers or Meridians Were there? I doubt such specifics for additional rolling stock for the franchise were given to the bidders. It certainly wasn't mentioned in the ITT that Transport Scotland wanted Class 22x stock to fulfill the role for improved inter-city operations. The ITT merely required procurement of suitable rolling stock, or utilisation of existing stock. Abellio's bid was accepted based on their plans to procure (what I'm 99.9% certain will be the) redundant Class 43+Mk3 stock. Other bidders may have had other options, but it's doubtful Class 22x stock would have featured in their bids. None of it is due to go off lease within a suitable time frame. None of the bidders could have entered a bid based on... "we may be able to use Meridians from late 2017 and (Virgin's) Voyagers from mid 2017 or (CrossCountry's) Voyagers from late 2019". Abellio (and maybe other bidders) were aware that Class 43+Mk3 stock would be available during the early years of the new franchise. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: John R on October 08, 2014, 20:16:08 worth noting that 70 - 80 trains for EGIP means vehicles, so up to 20 x 4 car trains, which will cascade a similar number of 3 car 170s. Probably more to come as electrification heads north to Stirling/Alloa.
I doubt whether any will come FGW's way, as any increase in DMU stock locally will be catered for by turbos released with electrification. Shame, as the 170s are far superior in my opinion. Though it all helps the DMU cascade and removal of pacers before 2020. As to the question as to whether pax will buy a 40 yr + train, my perception is that if the stock is given a decent refurb then yes they will. The improvement in ambience by not having underfloor engines is significant, and if the configuration of the interior is reduced from the high density currently seen to something akin to 170 stock (which I seem to recall is a requirement of the franchise), then with modification for automatic doors, there's no reason why passengers shouldn't. I suspect this will only find a home for around 20 -25 HST's, but it now looks as though they will celebrate their 50th year still in service in 2026. Whilst Mk 4 stock comes close, except for the cant-friendly profile, for many people the Mk 3 shell represents the pinnacle of rolling stock design, and I for one am very pleased to see them continue in service. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 20:27:42 worth noting that 70 - 80 trains for EGIP means vehicles, so up to 20 x 4 car trains, which will cascade a similar number of 3 car 170s. Probably more to come as electrification heads north to Stirling/Alloa. Abellio ScotRail Ltd's tender for EMU rolling stock, published in the OJEU in September 2013, was for up to 400 vehicles. That would logically include replacement for the Class 314s and possibly, toward the end of the build period, replacement of the Class 320s. And any additional stock needed for further electrification. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: John R on October 08, 2014, 20:49:32 Maybe, but this, from the Abellio website:-
Brand new trains operating between Edinburgh and Glasgow as part of the EGIP project Eighty new trains due to arrive at start of December 2017 would seem to imply that the announced commitment is for 20 x 4 car sets. IIRC the franchise requirement was for Dec 16, but perhaps common sense has prevailed and the fact that the earlier date was impossible (and probably irrelevant given pace of progress on EGIP) has been recognised. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Network SouthEast on October 08, 2014, 21:04:23 You seem to be confusing trains with vehicles.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 21:19:58 Indeed. Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High alone will require more than 20x 4 car sets. More than half of ScotRail's 56 Class 170s are currently used between Edinburgh and Glasgow QS via Falkirk High. 20 EMUs won't be enough for post EGIP service.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: John R on October 08, 2014, 22:13:53 Indeed. Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High alone will require more than 20x 4 car sets. More than half of ScotRail's 56 Class 170s are currently used between Edinburgh and Glasgow QS via Falkirk High. 20 EMUs won't be enough for post EGIP service. Each diagram will cover one return journey every two hours, equals 8 diagrams (at 4tph), equals 16 units in the peak (doubled up), so say 20 units including an allowance for availability. So no, I don't think I am confusing trains with vehicles. On the contrary, I think the Abellio website is the one confusing trains with vehicles. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Rhydgaled on October 08, 2014, 22:24:25 There were rumours that the Scottish parliment were looking at cascaded Voyagers or Meridians Were there? I doubt such specifics for additional rolling stock for the franchise were given to the bidders. It certainly wasn't mentioned in the ITT that Transport Scotland wanted Class 22x stock to fulfill the role for improved inter-city operations. The ITT merely required procurement of suitable rolling stock, or utilisation of existing stock. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 08, 2014, 23:01:19 Each diagram will cover one return journey every two hours, equals 8 diagrams (at 4tph), equals 16 units in the peak (doubled up), so say 20 units including an allowance for availability. So no, I don't think I am confusing trains with vehicles. On the contrary, I think the Abellio website is the one confusing trains with vehicles. The most recent diagrams I have seen online show that 22 Class 170 units are diagrammed for Edinburgh-Glasgow QS via Falkirk High for all or part of the day (Mon-Fri). There are a further 5 units stabled (some unavailable for maintenance and those that are available for cover will be for cover across the network and not just E-G). My earlier comment that 'more than half' of the Class 170s were diagrammed for E-G was wrong. I should have said 'around half'. Apologies. That's from 2011 diagrams available to read by registered users of http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Diagrams:Class+170+SX+May+2011. I've no reason to believe diagrams have substantially changed in the intervening 3 years. The timetable between E-G certainly hasn't, save for minor tweeks. So with 22 diagrams to cover, plus spare sets, 20x 4 car EMU sets will not cover all diagrams for like by like (albeit 4 car EMU replacing 3 carDMU) replacement of Class 170s post EGIP. Unless Abellio ScotRail plan to reduce the use of doubled up sets at peak times. That's very unlikely I think when all the bumpf has been suggesting an increase in capacity. Abellio ScotRail Ltd placed a tender for up to 400 EMU vehicles. 70-80 4 car trains (240-320 vehicles) is certainly within that 'up to' range. Maybe, but this, from the Abellio website:- Brand new trains operating between Edinburgh and Glasgow as part of the EGIP project Eighty new trains due to arrive at start of December 2017 I don't see those statements to mean there are 80 new trains for EGIP. It's 80 new trains across the network. Some of which will be operating EGIP. Nowhere has there been mention of 80 new vehicles for EGIP. Sorry, but I have to agree with Network SouthEast on this one. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: John R on October 09, 2014, 07:14:02 OK, if 80 trains refers to across the whole network then that makes more sense.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: ChrisB on October 09, 2014, 09:47:05 Rumour has it that these will be built by Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe, subject to contract....
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Network SouthEast on October 09, 2014, 17:30:54 Richard Clinnick (Rail magazine) says that Hitachi will be building the new Scotrail EMUs at it's Newton Aycliffe factory.
46 three car trains 24 four car trains A total of 234 vehicles will be built. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Chris125 on October 09, 2014, 18:19:56 It has also been reported that there will be 27 HSTs for 'Scotrail Intercity' services between Inverness and Aberdeen and down to the Central Belt.
Chris Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2014, 19:02:20 Rumour has it that these will be built by Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe, subject to contract.... Yep. From the Darlington & Stockton Times (http://www.darlingtonandstocktontimes.co.uk/news/11526499._/): Quote Newton Aycliffe firm will supply Abellio (http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/HitachiAbellio_zps4a8b935c.jpg) ROLLING STOCK: An image of the trains Hitachi will make for Abellio NORTH-EAST train builder Hitachi Rail Europe has secured a major deal to make rolling stock for a Scottish franchise. The company will make trains and carriages for Dutch rail operator Abellio at its new ^82m factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham. Abellio will run ScotRail services from April 2015. Bosses say Hitachi will supply 70 trains and 234 carriages, which will run on electrified lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow and lines passing through Stirling, Alloa and Dunblane. The AT200 commuter trains will operate from 2017. Hitachi^s factory will open in Aycliffe in 2016, creating 730 North-East jobs. Andy Barr, Hitachi Rail Europe^s chief operating officer, said: ^We are delighted Abellio has selected us as preferred bidder to supply rolling stock as well as long-term maintenance of our electric trains. ^This is great news, as it is the first contract for our recently launched AT200 commuter train.^ Hitachi^s Aycliffe factory will make Class 800 and 801 trains for the Government^s Intercity Express Programme, which will modernise the UK's ageing 40-year-old high-speed train fleet. Sedgefield MP Phil Wilson, who played a key role in persuading the Japanese firm to invest ^82m in the North-East, said: ^This is more excellent news for Hitachi Rail Europe and for Newton Aycliffe.^ 70 trains, 234 carriages, gives the impression that some of these units will be 3 car length. From other forums, but not yet verified, initially 70 trains up to 2022, with a further 10 should the franchise be extended past year 7. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: Network SouthEast on October 09, 2014, 19:19:34 Richard Clinnick (Rail magazine) says that Hitachi will be building the new Scotrail EMUs at it's Newton Aycliffe factory. 46 three car trains 24 four car trains A total of 234 vehicles will be built. 70 trains, 234 carriages, gives the impression that some of these units will be 3 car length. Yes they will. See my earlier post above.Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2014, 19:22:13 Aye. Missed that post. Sorry. :-[
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: TonyK on October 09, 2014, 19:45:29 Aycliffe will open in 2016 - there's going to be precious little time for tea breaks if they are going to have the 800 / 801s done in time, let alone the AT200s. I know it's an assembly rather than manufacturing operation, but it still seems a tight schedule to me.
Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2014, 20:33:51 From various chatter on forums I get the impression that the AT200s for ScotRail will be built up to 2022, so no immediate rush to get the whole fleet in service. I suspect Abellio's 'Eighty new trains due to arrive at start of December 2017' will more likely be 'due to start arriving December 2017'.
It does seem a bit of a push to have the whole fleet ready by December 2017. The Class 800 and 801s won't all be ready until 2019. Title: Re: ScotRail franchise Post by: John R on October 09, 2014, 23:45:02 From various chatter on forums I get the impression that the AT200s for ScotRail will be built up to 2022, so no immediate rush to get the whole fleet in service. I suspect Abellio's 'Eighty new trains due to arrive at start of December 2017' will more likely be 'due to start arriving December 2017'. It does seem a bit of a push to have the whole fleet ready by December 2017. The Class 800 and 801s won't all be ready until 2019. That's why I originally thought that the 80 referred to vehicles, rather than sets ,as Dec 17 would coincide with the EGIP electrification given the wording that Abellio used, and it appeared a reasonably consistent number with the number of sets that would be required. We've since seen that there will be 24 x 4 car units, which I'm guessing will be for the Edinburgh - Glasgow services. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |