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Major disruption expected this morning due to signalling problems near Slough.

No signals working at all between Slough and Iver caused by a damaged signalling cable.

In otherwords, we suspect Network Rail have cut through a signal cable whilst undertaking engineering works at about 00:30 this morning.

Topic split off from http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14258 - a major discussion concerning delays on 14th July 2014.

This morning's diagram ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/tr_graphic_2014_10_06.jpg)

Those of the team who met up on Saturday were discussing (in relation to CrossCounty) how the trains go a very long way but most of the traffic is for much shorter journeys ... stand at York, see a Penzance train, and know that few passengers joining will be going to Cornwall ... or even Devon.    Let's hope there's a lot of that about this morning ... with sets that would normally be used for runs like Exeter to Paddington doing Castle Cary to Reading instead.

Absolute shower of s***

I was on a PLY-PAD service yesterday, grossly overcrowded to the point of danger due to other train failures (there was luggage in the vestibules and aisles blocking access as there was no room for people, never mind bags) and am aware of numerous other services with similar conditions, complete under provision of replacement transport at Didcot etc (bustitution now seems about as reliable as the trains they are supposed to replace, if they turn up at all), and now the week starts with colossal volumes of cancellations due (it is suspected) to some clown cutting through a cable.

Last time we were told that Hopwood would be "signalling" his displeasure to Network Rail, what's the message today I wonder?

Groundhog day again. I managed to rush to Twyford to get the 0643 stopper which after lengthy waits at Slough West and in Slough P3, and a crawl to Iver, eventually made it to Ealing Broadway at 0821 some 48 mins late where I bailed for the Central Line. However from RTT it looks like I might have been quite lucky, I see that the 0600 Bristol TM - Paddington HST has just taken slightly over TWO HOURS to travel from RDG to PAD.

Yes same old, same old, but what's just got my goat is listening to some NR spokesbot on BBC Radio Berkshire saying "we'll learn our lessons for next time". No you bl**dy won't, you'll just send along some other faceless bloke to say exactly the same thing.  >:( >:( >:(

I see that Journeycheck is saying "signalling problems" led to all these cancellations, while the code in RTT is "power failure (IE)". Presumably that means the power supply to the signals has gone ... in which case restoring it should be a simpler single task (though not necessarily any quicker).

Apparently, some 1640 metres of 650v cable has needed to be replaced.

All the signals between Slough and Iver are black on all four lines.  Currently operating what is known as Temporary Block Working on the up and down mains only with Network Rail handsignallers at both Slough and Iver.  It should take around 20 minutes to pass through the affected area once a train leaves the point of entry to the TBW section. 

Replacement 650v cable now installed and power restored. However there are still some 650v power supply problems in nearby locations.

The BBC's Tom Edwards has just tweeted: "Network Rail say repairs at Slough have been completed BUT a further fault has been identified. Only able to allow 4 trains ph each way."

(Just checked the latest on RTT and the 0628 SWA-PAD which left RDG at 0916 didn't make it into PAD until 1151^, 141 minutes late)

Seemed to be more staff out and about at Swindon this morning. Perhaps a sign that they (FGW) are learning their lesson about getting people and information out there?

As usual the most up to date information seems to be coming from this forum, something we can all be proud of.  ;D

EDIT: I guess it's an advantage having line control upstairs.  ::)

Following replacement of 650v cable in affected area and powering up the system it was discovered that there was no power further along at the next relay location. Fortunately, new cable is already in place at this location and work is now in hand to connect that up. Testing should be underway by 1300.

I'm hearing the cable was crushed during engineering works, although obviously I can't confirm it.

What I find astounding is how the infrastructure is so fragile and contingency planning so feeble that damage to a pretty basic bit of kit can cause total and utter chaos for what is likely to be getting towards 24 hours by the time it's all done and dusted......no doubt we will get the usual platitudes from FGW about expecting better etc etc but frankly it is difficult to take them seriously........what a way to celebrate a 5 year franchise extension.......no doubt the best is yet to come!  ::)

From the BBC (http://):

Passenger Focus are carrying out a National Passenger Survey today at Bristol PW, Bristol TM, Exeter Central, Paddington, Oxford and Reading stations.

As these surveys are 'based on your journey today...' they'll no doubt be getting some interesting responses!

Void day? 

I'd hope so. Especially with disruption being expected until later this afternoon.

It's days like these that put many people off jobs requiring inter town/city commuting...on the train at least...

Notwithstanding the fact there was major disruption still, I did feel that the revised service plan held up reasonably well given the circumstances - there seemed more staff on the ground at the locations I witnessed, and the usual complete meltdown didn't seem quite as catastrophic.  For example, the Oxford<>Reading stopping services pretty much ran as normal, whereas often there's a mad scramble for drivers and sets meaning loads of last second cancellations.  Perhaps some lessons have been learned?  Perhaps forum members who were directly affected can give a summary of how their journey was affected today and how they thought it compared with previous major signalling outages as I may just have been 'lucky' in what I witnessed?

Still some residual problems in the area after the new cabling was energised.

Track circuits showing occupied when clear, and one or two signals still 'black' - i.e. not showing any aspect.

Considering the length of the affected section, I think they done well.  They ran as many trains as possible through the area and, most importantly, it was done safely.  

There's not much more you could do when you have no power to any of the signalling equipment on all 4 lines.  No train detection system, no point detection, no working signals, no interlocking the lot.  No contingency plan is going to get you around that and you can't plan for every single eventuality.  The finer details of a train plan is formed once an incident has been declared and the full extent of the incident is known.  No two incidents will ever be the same.  Network Rail will inform FGW control how many trains they can safely handle through the area and its worked out from there.
Early hours of the morning, taxis were being provided for cancelled trains.  At the height of rush hour it is not possible to acquire anywhere near the number of taxis and coaches required.  Even if you provided a handful of coaches you'll end up with a stampede of commuters all trying to fight their way onto a coach when its announced.  You'll have people being trampled over left right and centre.  

......woke up, went downstairs, checked trains, realised everything was melting down, woke Mrs TaplowGreen, asked for a lift to work, arrived at work, logged onto Interflora website  ;D

Based on previous experiences it clearly wasn't going to be worth going to the station and hoping for the best.

Likewise.

Woke up.  Put on suit.  Read text messages.  Took off suit.  Went downstairs.  Turned on computer...

 ;D

Indeed. There may not have been a florist at the station.  :P ;) ;D

I saw the text messages and tried to get the early train from Swindon (0641) which wasn't cancelled - didn't make it.  Sat at the train station until the next train (0728 actually left at 0745) and got the one after instead (0741, arrived at 0752 and left about 10 minutes later after we'd managed to convince everyone left on the platform that it was full and there was no more space).

Standing room only with extra stops at Maidenhead and Slough, although no-one got on or off as there was no space, finally crawled into London Paddington at 11:25ish

Wish my boss allowed me to work from home :(

Too much detail I think.  Sitting naked in front of your computer?   ;D

Paul

Unusually for me I didn't check the rail planner app when I first woke up. So I went to Thatcham to catch the 06:57 to Paddington only to start to realize the size of the problem.

I did ask at Reading if I could use my Thatcham to Paddington ticket via Guildford so that I could avoid the SWT service to Waterloo but wasn't convinced that the person offering assistance understood the question so took the snail service and arrived 90 minutes late.

Sadly I had to be on site otherwise I would have done what a lot of you did.

Let's just hope we are not in for another bad run of signal failures :(

The information available on-line is a bit conflicting..

I am waiting for someone who is arriving at Maidenhead on the 15.12 departure from Paddington.. Journeycheck says it is cancelled.. National Rail departures board says it's cancelled from West Drayton.. Real time trains shows it as just having left Slough and the report from the person on the train coincides with that..

How any one is going to work out what is going on for the trip home this evening (those that made it in that is) is beyond me  ;D

I got to the station usual time, train arrived a few minutes late. Was usual 3 cars and was standing room only. Travelled to Reading which was fun when the Pangbourne and Tilehurst commuters tried to squeeze on. Arrived at Reading around 0800. Most of us started getting off, but loads didn't even flinch until some of us said it was terminating. I checked it was terminating with one of the dispatch staff who confirmed it, and then they must have announced it on the train as everyone piled off.

We were told the next stopper to London was 0831 on Platform 13A, so we all queued up waiting. 0831 came and went, by which point platform 13A was about 8 people deep! 0834 came and went, then in typical fashion the 0831 vanished completely. Everyone was somewhat bemused. Then it changed to 0841 (or something) to Banbury! Empty 6 car turbo arrived, everyone totally confused, dispatch didn't have a clue where the London stopper was. I walked down to ask the driver where she was going, she said "Banbury I think, but don't ask me, I just work here" which made me chuckle! She was mobbed by people asking the same as she walked back down the platform to the other end. That then left, with about 4 people on it, to run non-stop to Oxford.

Suddenly there were shouts from all directions that the stopper was on Platform 14A. Everyone bundled up the escalator which promptly stopped. There was a mad crush up, along the bridge and back down the other side.

The dispatcher on 14A kept blowing his whistle, despite being loads of people trying to get down the escalator. Some poor lady went flying across the platform in her panic to reach the train before it left, I believe the dispatcher came to help her.

Finally made it down onto the train, which was standing room only as we left - not that it stopped people with their full size bikes trying to get on.

BTP were on the platform, as a precaution I assume.

Arrived at Twford which was relatively quiet, so once the students got off, there was space for the commuters, so wasn't too much of a crush.

Then we arrived at Maidenhead, which as usual, was a complete chaotic nightmare with the idiots that stand in front of the doors so no one can get off (hint, if you let us off, you can get on). Oh except the one chap who decided he would get on before we even had a chance to get off (I have never experienced this phenomenon anywhere else apart from Maidenhead!).


Can't wait to go home!

Long distance train plan for the rest of the day:


Up relief line in the affected area running normally. Down relief has one signal out with trains being talked past. Paddington to Reading currently has an all stations hourly service.

Ticket acceptance on all reasonable alternative rail routes (particularly SWT Waterloo-Reading, Virgin Euston-Birmingham then London Midland to Worcester/Hereford. Chiltern Marylebone-Banbury) an on First Berkshire buses:

1B/2 Slough to Burnham
58/78 Slough to Langley
75 Maidenhead > Taplow > Burnham > Slough > Langley
76 Burnham > Slough > Langley

Discussion that took a Pythonesque turn has been split off to a new topic:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14692.0

They did Swindon the other Sunday when most services were substituted by buses.  Suspect that skewed the comments somewhat.

They'll most likely exclude these papers & run extra questionaires to cover.

BBC Points West have been guilty of rather a huge over-simplification.  Apparently the problems were caused by "a damaged signal".

Same on BBC London.  Apparently it was a "points failure".

Does anyone know if this might be sorted before tomorrow morning's rush hour? It doesn't look that good currently.. Half hourly service Paddington to Reading.. and the trains still seem to be losing a lot of time along the way

Testing of signal circuits is ongoing at present.

Just had a tweet from FGW saying that they're holding a 'Meet the Manager' session at Reading tomorrow (Tuesday) between 16:30 and 18:30.

Brave...

In case tomorrow reflects today's situation...

When FGW says Chiltern will accept FGW tickets between Banbury and Marylebone does that mean Chiltern will accept a CHO-PAD season ticket from Princes Risborough to MYB?  Notwithstanding a longer car journey at the start (and finish), it will be significantly quicker than crawling with SWT via Staines to Waterloo.

It would need to honoured on the way home too, as my transport home would be in PRR!

Planning to get the 0903 THA-PAD this morning and thanks to BBC Berks heard about 0700 that there were major probs.

Waited at home till 0830, when Journeycheck was showing that the 0903 was on time but would terminate at RDG.

On the basis that it could then take me hours to get from RDG-PAD (if at all), I drove to Basingstoke and caught the 0930 to Waterloo. Never realised how comfy the seats on a 159 are! (compared to 165/166 anyway).

Admittedly, I was travelling outside the peaks but got a seat into Waterloo and back again this evening. Journey time was about 45 mins in each direction.

If I didn't live within walking distance of THA I might go into London that way more often :-) Much quicker getting to the City from Waterloo (via "The Drain") aswell.

To be fair, the routes into Waterloo has just as many days when the service is a disaster!

This even affected local mainline services in Cornwall today. I got the 2A63 1141 Penzance to Newton Abbot from Truro which was 16 late, due to the previous service the unit works from Bristol arrived at PNZ 20 late.

This afternoon after a trip down to Looe I arrived back at Liskeard to find the 1C84 was an hour late and then the 2C51 from Plymouth was 24 late from due to crew shortage because of train delays, which had most seats taken and people standing as it is a single 150.

To make matters worse apparently a freight train broke down on the up line at Lostwithiel blocking trains. meaning the 1C94 was 106 late upon starting again from Par according to RTT. This of course caused a huge backlog of trains on the up line waiting at signals.

Although the station manager at Liskeard was very good at passing on information, going along the platforms telling all the passengers the current situation.

This could be one of those rare times when every passenger approached actually does have time to answer a few questions!


Let's hope he isn't delayed...

Visited Reading earlier (not been there since the rebuild completed), and I was waiting for the 19:18 service to Paddington (from Newbury) on platform 10 when there was an automated tanoy announcement to say that there was a platform alteration and that this train would depart from Platform 1!

People started to make a dash for the escalators, only to drift back a few minutes later, presumably when they realised they realised the train wouldn't be advancing any further!

Staff on the over bridge were advising people to take the stopper to Paddington, and these looked to be full to standing. But at 19:40 a service originating from Penzance rolled in and got that one to Paddington, Passing several stoppers on route.

A prime example of how automation can fail. What did the system think was going to happen? Into the west facing bay, back out, stop, reverse, then on to Paddington?

Someone knew what was going to happen to that service, having taken the decision to terminate it at Reading. That information should have been communicated to the passenger information systems or to station staff to make a manual announcement.

Route via Melksham, cut out the reversal...


Manual announcement did come, but too late. T'was just myself, one member of staff (in purple jacket) and a meandering subway beaker (the modern day tumbleweed) remaining on platform 10.

I would have thought a few more people would have known it was a bay platform. Thats more local geography than technical rail operations.

I intended to catch the 23:35 from BRI to EXD...

I am still waiting.............. ::)

And why not  ;D  ... there are even precedents where reversal upon departure is required, such as trains from Limerick Junction to Waterford. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Junction

Many services reverse direction during a diagram at Bristol Temple Meads every day. Including Local Class 15x stock and InterCity High Speed Train (HST)/Voyager Stock :)

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Up Sleeper has a massive delay also. Meant to depart Exeter St Davids at 01:06 and is now expected 05:08 and counting... Flooding on the line apparently. Staff at Exeter St Davids have been fantastic in making everyone comfortable however :)

Driver for 1C99 (Down Sleeper) from Exeter St Davids has not arrived to work the train... He has since been located inside 1A40 (Up Sleeper) which at the time of writing has just passed Saltash 286 minutes late...

bobm are you in one of the births by chance? :P :-X ;D

No I didn't jinx it for once.

Up sleeper currently 4 hours 45 minutes late approaching Totnes and the Down 23 late leaving Newton Abbot.

Meanwhile back at Slough repairs were completed at 3am. Hopefully a normal service this morning barring rolling stock being in the wrong place.

However to get to Padd from Platform 1 at Reading would require a reversal on the running line not in teh platform.

Hold on a minute..........are you saying that on a day of colossal disruption, when people were being advised not to travel on FGW services, FGW were relying on drivers getting to their starting points..........by FGW trains?

You really couldn't make that one up - why on Earth didn't they put him in a taxi? It would have been a great deal cheaper than the compensation bill which will come out of this delay!!!  ::)

And so it does at Limerick Junction, to this day.   The train leaves towards Limerick, then changes direction on the running line towards Tipperaray and Waterford.  And it used to be even more complex there!

One other running line reversal happens regularly at Inverness - the 1714 Kyle of Lochalsh to Elgin has to take the avoiding line at Inverness and then reverse at Welsh's Bridge Jct into Platform 2 in order to get access on departure to the Elgin route.

Poster was already up on Saturday, so pre-planned. Brave not to cancel it, I agree. They wouldn't dare....


By any reasonable route...so if that suited you, it is likely to be reasonable, I'd say. They were accepting almost anything Thames Valley-wise to HWY for example....

As I understand it, yes, the driver was on the train going the other way.    And in "sound bites" it might sound like a poor decision.   However, this was the train from Penzance - a long long way from the Thames Valley, and already in place there for the journey up to Exeter and beyond - no reason at all to suspect that it wouldn't be reliable until the other issues hit.

A train operating company is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to decisions like these.   They should move their own staff around by train ("patriotic" to the railway) and indeed I observe that they do when it's practical.   However, especially where they're looking at first / last services, sometimes there is no practical train, and they'll fall back to road.

In my personal view, they normally come up with a sensible compromise in this area, and in my own volunteer work I follow much the same philosophy;  I'll take an hour or two longer to go by public transport, but if it's much more than that / means missing a vital meeting then it's car / taxi - either to a suitable railhead, or all the way.   In times of disruption it's harder to judge, and I'm sure that the folks in Penzance would have loved to have had a crystal ball to see that the up sleeper would be delayed.

There was (widely predicted) severe weather in Cornwall earlier in the day yesterday causing flooding and structural damage and which also affected the railways notwithstanding the signal failures - the local media were advising people not to attempt to travel by rail towards London due to the weather AND the signalling problems in Slough.......I wouldn't have thought a crystal ball would have been necessary to at least manage the risk? (Unless of course that's the method FGW employ these days?)

Under these circumstances do you really think it was a good call to rely on a train to get the single most important person involved to the place he needed to be to move the last service of the day, risking delay and inconveniencing hundreds of customers?

Firstly, 'hundreds of customers' on the night sleeper after Exeter?  A couple of dozen more like.  Secondly, the train was only delayed at Exeter by 19 minutes, and was back on time by departure from Plymouth, so only the handful travelling to Newton Abbot/Plymouth would have suffered minor inconvenience.  Thirdly, the driver for the train may well have been utilised to work another train down towards Plymouth due to the disruption -  looking at the diagram that it books on at 23:25 and does one shunt before 'working as required' until departing with the sleeper at 04:11.  He/she would therefore have been a prime candidate to be used to work another train in the meantime, perhaps to Plymouth, so a taxi may not have been viable or necessary.   ::)
 

My journey yesterday was Working from home (planned in advance so not a problem)..

Today however it went as follows:

1 Get up on time but check NR site first.. trains running ok so carry on getting ready for work
2. Check Journey check (several times) -  no issue with 7.59 Maidenhead to Paddington
3. Get to station..as soon as previous service leaves it becomes apparent that the 7.59 is a class-180 not the usual HST - would have been good to know in advance as I've had got the preceding stopping service
4. Attempt to get on 7.59 departure - give up
5. Attempt to get on 8.02 departure - give up
6. Get on 8.11 departure but abandon it at Slough as it was sooo overcrowded
7. Get on 8.29 Slough to Paddington
8. Tweet FGW re why journey check was not showing the change to the 7.59 (it never does show it when this happens)
9. FGW on twitter tweet to say (pretend) it was on there  :o
10. Get to work 40 minutes late so not bad all things considering but information is what we need.. 40 minutes late at work is ok when I have no early meetings but if that is going to happen I'd rather spend the time at home.. not platform swapping at Maidenhead  ::)

My journey yesterday consisted of:

Woken by alarm on phone
Roll over to turn off alarm
Stare in disbelief at 06:30 text notifying of 20+ cancellations
Double check twitter and journeycheck
Roll over and go back to sleep

Sometime later I started working from home

Out of interested following the problems yesterday are weekly ticket holders allowed to recover any of the cost of their ticket?

I thought I saw mention of this somewhere.

I would think so! Complete a claim with your details/delay. If you didn't travel, they may well also pay out, but I'd email or tweet them & find out before claiming.

Many thanks

I saw it there this morning. The 07:34 (180) ex DID was shown as cancelled due to train fault. The 07:06 High Speed Train (HST) ex DID was shown as a 5 car rather than 8.

My interpretation was that the High Speed Train (HST) failed at OOC - or rather was not available after yesterday's chaos - and the 180 was run in place of the High Speed Train (HST).  The up Bristol called additionally at DID (07:31) to make up for the cancelled 07:34

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

What time did you see that? When I left home about 7.20 the 7.34 didcot departure was showing as cancelled but the 7.06 wasn't showing as any change from normal..

Still no excuse for not telling us at the station.. unless they didn't know either?

Apparently FGW Tweeted that the delays of the 6th October are NOT disruptive enough for it to be classed a void day... :-x

That really really gets my goat. It displays a level of arrogance that I find both absurd and upsetting.

Hmmm. If they advise people not to travel (did they?) then I think it is very suspect not to declare a void day.

Very valid point John R

That really beggars belief with the amount of delays and cancelations that took place. Anyone know what the threshold is set at to declare a void day?

Who sets the criteria for a void day?  I would have thought it would have been in FGW's interests to declare it void. So presumably something must have stopped them.

Well someone asked that very question. More recent twitter talk suggests that it is being reviewed again however.

FGWs tweet 7th October AM  (https://twitter.com/FGW/status/519367840017944576)

It was after I got to work at 07:45. I was looking at various information regarding late running on RTT and wanted to clarified a cancellation on FGW.  That is when I picked up the details.

Void days are entirely in the choice of the operator....

There was some further Twitter discussion in this thread: FGWs tweet 7th October PM (https://twitter.com/FGW/status/519493792735711233)

In particular Leo says "That's correct, out of 814 planned LTV services yesterday, 146 didn't run."

I've just checked RTT for Twyford last night between 1700 and 1900. Of the 30 services due to call, 17 were cancelled. Of the 13 which did run, 7 were Henley Branch trains (one of which should have started from PAD but didn't). So how did they come up with 146 out of 814 not running?

Assuming your delay qualifies (and if it doesn't, why do you think you are hard done by?), you would get the same comp with the delay payment as you will if a void day is declared...equivalent to your fare refunded (for daily ticket/7day season) or a days equivalent on a monthly or longer season.

I don't see the complaint?....

Do you get a refund on a longer dated season. I thought the only compensation was either a void day or a 5% discount if the overall performance warrants it. As the performance is already beyond that threshold, it costs FGW nothing, whereas if they declare a void day it does.

Looking at Chippenham as an example, of the 13 trains timetabled to leave before noon for Paddington, only 4 made it the whole way, four stopped short at Reading and 5 were cancelled. Of the four that made it through the average delay was 108 minutes, with the 0725 being delayed for 2 hrs 38 mins.

If that wasn't enough disruption to declare a void day, I don't know what is.

Indeed, claiming comp gives you vouchers usable across ticketing, void day extends your season. Which would you find more useful?

Good point re monthly/longer seasons. Void day extends your season, otherwise it would count towards a 5% didcount. If that kicks in, it will cost FGW more..if it doesn't, they gain.

My point re weeklies & daily tickets is correct though.

But it is entirely choice of the TOC

Interesting though....

The perpetrator (Network Rail this time) would ultimately pay the full comp paid out by the TOC. Who (and how on earth is it calculated?!) would they cover a void day declared?

My thoughts are that by saying this wasn't a void day then FGW are saying this didn't have a notable impact to the majority of travellers on that day - almost like saying 'these things happen and we don't owe you an apology' - which i find arrogant and disrespectful to paying customers.

By having to claim individually passengers a) have to write in themselves; b) are subject to the extremely inconsistent approach applied by FGW customer service.

Given that many many people won't be bothered to do this* and FGW will be recompensed themselves by NR we run the risk of creating the moral hazard that TOC's may come to regard such incidents as 'nice little earners' which I find objectionable.



*i have no stats on what proportion of travellers will actually claim.

Once smartcards are introduced, auto-compensation will be easily assessable (your train journey will be recorded, so proof you travelled when you say you did) and therefore payable.
Until then, the TOC doesn't know who travelled at what time, and thus needs to know. Not everyone would have been delayed by the full (two hours is it) amount to be entitled to full refund.

In this case, I think I'm with the TOC...

And what of those who didn't travel because they were told not to?

What about people who bought Advance tickets for a specific train via the FGW website? They would have all the customers details and would be able to refund automatically with no need for a claim if it was cancelled?.

Indeed, agreed - but that applies to all TOCs and thus becomes an ATOC issue - suggest taking it up through Passenger Focus maybe?

Tweet from @FGW: "Following Mondays disruption we're offering compensation to affected Season Ticket Holders. We'll be in contact directly with more details."

https://twitter.com/FGW/status/519811385715617792

And so today we have a signalling failure between Twyford (TWY) and Maidenhead (MAI) affecting all lines...  >:(

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Having just boarded at maidenhead on the delayed 7.08 I'm sorry to say that there were no station announcements, no platform staff to ask, no update on journeycheck, and once onboard no acknowledgement of the delay by the TM.

... So I came here to find out the cause...  ;D

To add to those delays the 7.59am High Speed Train (HST) has been replaced by a Class-180 for the second time this week. So late to work again then... ???'

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

I am on said 180 - crawling through Twyford. Signalling issues in the Maidenhead area.

Indeed,  I'm just passing Twyford some 25mins after leaving Reading on the 8:09 service.

Here we go again...

Fun fact: Passing through the station on the way to work the 0929 from Swindon to Paddington was showing as now stopping on platform 'UML' ...mind the gap  ;D

Looking at some recent replies on their Twitter account, FGW are currently blaming the fault on Network Rail (NR) cutting through a cable AGAIN...  :'(


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

......for the second time this week, total chaos, RTT listing over 30 trains cancelled - lucky I came in early today and missed it - this affects peoples jobs and lives and is simply unacceptable.......and yes I know Network Rail look after the signals before all the FGW devotees start going all Railway enthusiast fundamentalist on me, but it's FGW that take a chunk of my salary in return for providing a service of sorts, so I expect them to sort their infrastructure providers out, rather than their Directors bleating about learning lessons year after year......first lesson to learn, use cable scanners, if my blokes don't, they get sacked. >:(

Reliability certainly seems to be getting worse, and subjectively seems to be much worse than back in the "good old days"
Breakdowns certainly occurred back in the old days, but I don't recall major failures resulting in DOZENS of cancellations, occurring on a near weekly basis.
Thirty trains are cancelled at present, and many other services are running for only part of the scheduled journey.

This weeks two major failures appear to be network rail incompetence, and might not be repeated for some weeks, but the rainy season has just started and will probably result in a third consecutive autumn of disruption caused by "once in a century extreme weather"

Looking further ahead we have electrification to look forward to with the inevitable weather related disruption.

Your [original] comparison was over the top, and could have been read very much in the wrong way. Thank you for going back and amending it.

I have to agree with you that the current rate of failure has moved well beyond what should be provided - as I read it, there has been one morning out of four so far this week that has run smoothly, with two lots of engineering problems and a person under a train.   And I have to agree that when you buy a service from someone, it's really up to them to get what they need from their suppliers in turn.

But we have a problem ... it's tightly regulated and there IS only one supplier ... you can write "unacceptable" and the answer has to be "then don't accept it" - and that might mean some sort of campaigning, or a switch to an alternative means of travel, or to another home or to another job.  Frankly, the passenger / travelling public is pretty powerless against what is a monopoly of service, and to take the work "unacceptable" at face value means some pretty tough decisions.   And even if there were an open access operator on the line, it's still Network Rail behind it ...

To paraphrase Lady Bracknell,

    "To cut one cable may be regarded as a misfortune. To cut two in one week looks like carelessness."

I agree with TaplowGreen about cable scanners.

Why are there so many single points of failure ? Is that simply the way signalling infrastructure works ?

The whole area is CAT scanned, quite often see them trackside during the day undertaking this.  Still doesn't stop some idiot damaging the cable.  Monday they managed to crush a cable I believe.
Today's signalling failure is currently logged as a track circuit failure between Twyford and Maidenhead. Cause not reported as yet although it was logged that the first train up in the morning operated track circuits correctly which suggests some work was carried out overnight??

A bit of an aside ... I'm noticing that Bristol and South West trains appear to be running as combined services ... South West services are running via Bristol anyway this week, due to works between Castle Cary and Taunton.  Looks to be a sensible way to make maximum use of reduced capacity in the Thames Valley.  Good call by whoever came up with that approach!

Quite agree that it's been another very disappointing week, but there was never the sheer amount of infrastructure work going on, or anywhere near the number of trains/passengers, in these alleged 'good old days'.  The amount of work going on is phenomenal - Reading, electrification, resignalling, Crossrail and so on with hundreds of staff on the trackside both day and night.

Todays chaos is still very much ongoing.....

Sources inform me that techs on the ground are still trying to work out the cause of the failures. There were multiple sites last night where digging & piling were taking place but as yet can not find a damaged cable.

They have located a location cabinet in the area which has no power, but don't know why!!

Could take until 1400 to test cables to locate the fault, then the solution needs to be found, and implemented.

The fault in itself is quite an unusual one and has the potential to cause an accident, which is why the service is being reduced. Short version is that on ALL 4 lines, the signaller at TVSC is loosing trains. in that the track circuit are wrong side failures, train in section but computer says nothing there!!! This has the potential to allow another train into the same section.

As a result a method of work called long block is in operation. Only one train from Maidenhead to Ruscombe per line at any time. Basically like Absolute Block in the old days. Luckily all the signals on the ground seem to be working correctly from what I understand (but this not confirmed), so once trains get a green, should be a clear run. But there were some reports of an actual track circuit failure as well....

Another day to stay away from trains....

The whole thing reeks of carelessness, shoddiness and incompetence.........there can be no other explanation for one of the busiest rail thoroughfares in Europe being brought to a grinding halt for the second time in 4 days..............the noise you can hear is not trains moving to and fro, it's Brunel spinning in his grave.

FGW should grow a pair and insist that all digging/piling work should cease until they are satisifed that those undertaking it are competent enough to undertake this work without this happening.

I note the message on the FGW website is  "There is currently no estimate for a normal train service to resume"..........how apt!

I was on the 0903 THA-PAD this morning, which left about 17 late (due to being late on its down journey to Bedwyn).

We left RDG at about 0940 and breezed through Twyford and Maidenhead at pretty-much max turbo speed, to my surprise....only to amble on an amber all the way from Slough to about Acton West (driver did come up on the PA to make us aware of reason for slow running).

Arrived at PAD about 25 late but could have been worse.

Would also like to praise the guy in the ticket office at THA who came out and walked up and down the platform telling us all what was going on.

I was on the 657 Thatcham to Paddington today and it got caught up in these new signalling problems.

Someone on here must have posted it pretty quickly because I new about it even before the train driver. We had a 23 minute delay arriving at Paddington.

I guess I must have been lucky - I had a three week run without any problems and now it's payback time :)

Makes you wonder if the contractors carrying out this work have been set unrealistic targets by NR to erect so many structures a night and as a result are rushing and cutting corners resulting in damage to the signalling system.

Refreshing to see that you can actually post a message which doesn't accuse those of us on here that try and explain why things may be happening in more detail as 'Railway enthusiast fundamentalists' or some similarly stupid label.  I dread to think what it was before you modified it. 

Speaking personally, I am pretty passionate about the railways and hate it when passengers have their journey disrupted.  Part of my reason for being on here is to try and explain why things have gone wrong to those that might not have the technical knowledge or ability to find out.  I don't have to do it and I sure as hell don't get paid for doing it.  It also gives me a platform to anonymously criticise (and indeed praise) the railway industry when I deem it suitable.  Many staff feel the same way I do and your constant sniping at us really makes me wonder why I bother.  Sure, there are some bad members of staff out there and things don't always go to plan, but I'm sure the same applies in whatever industry you are involved in but perhaps not under quite the glare of public scrutiny.

I strongly suspect that today will be discussed at a very senior level within Network Rail (doubtless with input from FGW) and it might indeed be sensible to stop the work whilst a review in undertaken.  It's interesting that it's (presumably) the Crossrail electrification team that have once again caused this disruption rather than the GWML electrification team who have been doing similar piling work for over a year with very few problems.

Makes you wonder if the contractors carrying out this work have been set unrealistic targets by Network Rail (NR) to erect so many structures a night and as a result are rushing and cutting corners resulting in damage to the signalling system.
[/quote]

-may well be the case but in my experience Contractors will promise the Earth to secure juicy contracts such as this so it may well be 6 of one and half dozen of the other with Network Rail (NR) believeing the hype!

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Cable Testing ongoing.....rain in area has slowed testing....don't want electronics to get wet!!!

Sounds like ongoing rest of day....

Plan for Peak

Paddington ^ Bedwyn services to start / terminate at Reading starting with
1K53 11.39 Bedwyn ^ Paddington terminating at Reading to form
1K57 12.18 Paddington ^ Bedwyn starting Reading. Then :-
1K61 12.38 Bedwyn ^ Paddington terminating Reading to form
1K60 13.18 Paddington ^ Bedwyn starts Reading
1K63 13.42 Bedwyn ^ Paddington terminates Reading to form :-
1K64 14.18 Paddington ^ Bedwyn starts Reading
1K65 14.39 Bedwyn ^ Paddington terminates Reading to form :-
1K68 15.18 Paddington ^ Bedwyn starts Reading
1K69 15.40 Bedwyn ^ Paddington terminates Reading to form :-
1K74 16.18 Paddington ^ Bedwyn starts Reading

Class one Paddington ^ Oxford services to remain cancelled.
1D45 15.22 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D49 16.22 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D51 16.49 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D53 17.18 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D57 17.35 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D61 18.18 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D67 18.50 Paddington ^ Oxford
1D69 19.18 Paddington ^ Oxford

1P63 17.01 Oxford ^ Paddington
1P69 18.01 Oxford ^ Paddington
1P71 18.31 Oxford ^ Paddington
1P75 19.31 Oxford ^ Paddington

1H48 17.12 Paddington ^ Henley On Thames start Twyford
1H52 18.12 Paddington ^ Henley On Thames start Twyford
1H54 19.05 Paddington ^ Henley On Thames start Twyford

Paddington ^ Cardiff/South Wales XX.15 departures to remain cancelled.

1C18 14.33 Paddington ^ Weston S.M. Cancelled. (Possibly start Bristol T.M.)
(1Z86 Paddington ^ Penzance S.S.O.^s vice between Reading and Bristol T.M.)

1C20 15.33 Paddington ^ Weston S.M. Cancelled.
(1Z88 15.30 Paddington ^ Penzance S.S.O.^s vice between Reading and Bristol T.M.)

1C22 16.33 Paddington ^ Taunton Cancelled. (Possibly start Bristol T.M.)
(1Z89 16.30 Paddington ^ Penzance S.S.O.^s vice between Reading and Bristol T.M.)

1C25 18.03 Paddington ^ Bristol T.M. Cancelled.
(1Z92 18.00 Paddington ^ Penzance S.S.O.^s vice between Reading and Bristol TM)

1C27 19.03 Paddington ^ Bristol T.M. Cancelled.
(1Z95 19.00 Paddington ^ Plymouth S.S.O.^s vice between Reading and Bristol TM)

In addition to the above

1C90 17.06 Paddington ^ Bristol T.M. Twyford stop withdrawn.
1J93 18.05 Paddington ^ Frome Twyford stop withdrawn

I imagine there will be some Twyford passengers who will not be pleased at their stops being withdrawn :(

 :D
Last heard in 1892 I believe... ! ;D

Me for one!!!  >:(

1712 and 1735 fast(-ish) Turbos are cancelled too, plus the 1718 to OXF with an opportunity for a change at Maidenhead (MAI). On Monday there was an near hour-long gap in anything serving TWY from PAD between 1642 and 1735. Are we the lowest of the low? Is the Henley Branch a figment of my imagination?

Sorry to sound a bl**dy misery but the good news for me is that today I've managed to get my boss to finalise a date for my job move to Reading in January. I might drive in, I might get the bus or I might use SWT from Winnersh Triangle. But I will not be using FGW.

Edit; VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Have to be in London later this afternoon - think I may start by driving to Haddenham ....

You'd be better off going to Reading and coming back wouldn't you? 

My place of work is on the Central Line so I might go to Ealing (EAL) and get a stopper if I can be certain they're running. If I can't be sure then it'll be PAD to RDG and back to Twyford (TWY).

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

At the moment they're down as running but they're going to be even busier than normal given the cancellations of the fast services for Slough & Maidenhead.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

JourneyCheck has just been updated with the news that the 1712 to Henley and the 1735 to Oxford have been reinstated, so hopefully the 1706 will now stop at TWY.  :)

Wrong side failures? Are these sites still track circuits or axle counters? One hopes that the reason for a wrong side failure is properly communicated within the industry so that lessons are learned before serious consequences arise. (For an example of where this, sadly, didn't happen, see the report on a passenger being trapped by a train door at Newcastle).

Its a true track circuit area at present (going over to axle counters soon).  Failures of this nature are more common than you might think.  Just unfortunate that a lot of them appear to be happening in FGW land at the moment but then the signalling infrastructure is over 50 years old :(

Friday, 05:00 ...


12 cancellations and 11 amendments showing already

And at 06:23 there are 22 cancellations and 39 amendments.

26 cancellations and 41 amendments now.. I am staying at home today.. I can't take it anymore  ;D

FAULT IS STILL ONGOING..........

After pretty much pulling the power supply system apart over night, techs are still baffled as to why they cant rectify an earth fault. This is causing a one track circuit on each of the lines UP & DOWN, Main & Relief, to give false indications.

So as a result Long Block Working will remain in place UFN. The train service has been stripped back more than yesterday for AM peak as there were some big delays with bunching of trains at Twyford!

Basic Plan is Pad-Cardiff cancelled.
 Bedwyn - Pad start/terminate RDG,
Oxford - Pad Class 1 cancelled (North Cots services should run)
Henley & Marlow Branch Services, run a locked in Branch Service only no through trains to Pad.
Chetenham - Pad start/term Swindon.

And then as ever whatever else Network Rail decide to cancel to ease congestion and workload for signaller to ensure a safe railway....this will mean severe overcrowding, but at least trains run.

And Yes Twyford & Maidenhead customers will be hit hard with these amendments....but there will be trains, it would be nice if they thought to send something down to Maidenhead to start, being the London side of the failure, but doubt that will happen!

AND AS IF BY MAGIC...AFTER THE PLANS ARE IMPLEMENTED AND ADVERTISED......NETWORK RAIL ADVISE NORMAL SIGNALLNG FULLY RESTORED AT 0655!!!!!

However majority of alterations will stand as crew and sets already in place, however some will be reinstated....

First to run is the 0736 Pad-Chelt!!!

Likely that HSS services will recover, and LTV will take until around 1000-1100 as loads of sets are still on Reading depot!!!

Yes I can confirm from "on the spot" that trains seem to be passing between Twyford (TWY) and Maidenhead (MAI) without delay. It's a shame this couldn't have been fixed earlier to allow a normal scheduled service this morning!

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Good news - let's hope a normal service can be maintained, maybe for as long as 24 hours?  ::) my only hope is that someone will compensate me for the amount of flowers I've had to buy Mrs Taplowgreen in respect of taxi service to work over last few days......I've even promised to do the hoovering and clean out the garage at the weekend.....FGW/NR have a lot to answer for!  :'(

It looks like there are problems again this Friday - well there were on my journey from Thatcham to Paddington.

Fortunately I saw this when I got out of bed and managed to catch an earlier train to get me to Reading. More by luck than judgement I managed to get a re-instated turbo servers from Reading to Paddington which stopped only at Maidenhead and got to the office earlier than when the services run on time.

Although I have sympathy with those struggling to get into London from the west one of the plus points of my journey was that the tube wasn't as crowded as normal

Have the problems reappeared yet again? I've just taken a look at RTT and at the current time (0905) there seems to be about 10-12 minutes of delays occurring in the Twyford (TWY) area on all 4 lines.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Not sure BBM - from guesswork (must stress that) they reoccurred early this morning and loads of services were showing as cancelled/delayed on the planner app. After I walked down to Thatcham station they seemed to have settled but I suspect that was a false sense of security.

When I got to Reading I was thinking of catching a stopping service to PAD and was on P14/15 when they announced that some of the services were being re-instated.

Maybe FGW had learnt from the troubles on Monday (in a good way, I'm not being sarcastic!) and were planning accordingly.

Practice makes perfect!

.....suspect there's an element of a**e covering as things get back to "normal" in case they all fall over again? Having said that the list of cancellations seems to be dwindling and mainly restricted to London - Cardiffs.

It was a complete fiasco this morning so I don't think anyone has learnt from anything!

JoHoare you were so right to stay at home!

I had to change at Reading on to 8:31 Ealing Broadway stopper. I was sitting comfortably in the rear coach of 5 at 8:29 when I heard platform - NOT on-train - announcements that the front 2 coaches only were going to Ealing Broadway and the rear three were now going to Oxford. After quickly checking with someone who had just got on, I got off & sprinted up the platform & got on the rammed 2nd coach getting the last seat. The doors soon shut leaving those less quick on the uptake than me standing outside.

Since this was patently unfair due to the lack of on-train announcements, they eventually had to open the doors to let these people on, causing a delay. After further delays between Twyford & Maidenhead we then proceeded getting later & later & later due to the sheer impossibility of trying to cram at least 3 full trains-worth of people onto 2 coaches.

The platform at Slough alone was still heaving when they shut the doors, a situation repeated at West Drayton, Hayes & Southall. We eventually arrived at Ealing over 20 mins late (having strated off only 5 mins late).

Whoever decided to split that train at Reading and send us forward with only 2 coaches has some SERIOUS explaining to do! It is just taking the proverbial - if you cancel more than half the trains, the ones that do run MUST be full 5 or 6-car sets - no ifs, buts or maybes.

It is never acceptable at any time to run 2-car trains in the peaks on this route, let alone when it was the first stopper through in some time as it was this morning.

I had just got off the stopper from Oxford that had terminated at Reading - surely they could have turned this around to form the service to Oxford instead of splitting the 5-car set! It's simply beyond a joke.

Does anyone know WHY they run such short trains at times of disruption ?
With so many cancellations they can hardly plead shortage of rolling stock.

If the network rail signalling fiascos severely limit the number of trains that can be run, then surely every train that does run should without question be full length.

Trains & drivers out of place....

..............ah but for how long this time I wonder?  ???

Following earlier signalling problems between Maidenhead and Twyford all lines have now reopened.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations are returning to normal. Normal services will be provided as soon as possible. For the latest rail travel news, why not follow us on Twitter @FGW.

I can still hear the trains sounding their horn as they come through the west of Maidenehad.. That is usually an indication that there is something not quite right with the service

This could also be that there are still network rail personnel out on the track side. I believe the rule is drivers have to sound the horn and they (track side personnel) should raise a hand to acknowledge the presence of the approaching train?

There must be an average of 300 or so track workers of various disciplines on average between Reading and London at the moment whilst all the various upgrades are going on.  That's a lot of worn out horns!

........oo-er Mrs!  :D

I would think that must be quite stressful for drivers.  You know they will get out of the way but just occasionally.....

Not as stressful for the folks on the track if the drive doesn't blow you off  :o  (being blown off is a term used when a drive sounds their horn to warn people on or about the railway)

Could I just add a few comments to the debate that was raging earlier.

Normally, I travel to London (from Kingham) about once or so a month. This week I had to go to London on Tuesday and Thursday. On Monday I had a meeting in Oxford with someone from London. The Monday meeting was cancelled after I'd got to Oxford so I wasn't best pleased - the other party couldn't get there in time for obvious reasons. Having seen the shambles unfold throughout Monday I had a contingency plan to drive to Banbury on the Tuesday which would have meant getting up at 5am (instead of 5.45am to go to Kingham). At about 9.30pm on Monday it still wasn't clear if they'd fixed the problem so I was awake at 4am checking the FGW website which indicated everything OK. Indeed Tuesday was relatively OK except for the disruption due the fatality (which thankfully I escaped due to arriving back at Paddington in time to see the 1552 was cancelled and so just getting an earlier train to Oxford). Then yesterday delays into Paddington because of more signalling problems, though the 1420 Adelante back to Kingham was bang on schedule.

I don't think it is fair to blame FGW (as some people appear to be doing) although I don't find their website that helpful compared to earlier versions some years ago. But it seems to me Monday should have declared a "void" day with full refunds etc.

Network Rail clearly deserve the full bucket load of critiscism and I trust somebody senior at NR is being severely "roughed up" as there are too many problems at the moment. I understand from an earlier post there are several sets of contractors running around the Reading to London area with electrification, Crossrail etc. Why? Surely - and I know I'm not an engineer - overhead electrification is the same for both schemes and there must be a considerable degree of commonality in the works. But even so, NR should control this properly. If disruption continues will somebody pay the price that would happen in private industry?

And for those who have to use the line day in day out, you have my sympathy.

 

Quite stressful when they don't bother acknowledging you sounding the warning horn.

They don't...  :-X :-\ :( :-[

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/bulletins_2013/bulletin_05_2013.cfm (http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/bulletins_2013/bulletin_05_2013.cfm)

Another incident today - "Emergency Services dealing with an incident"

There's been a lot of talk about the need for FGW to put pressure on Network Rail, but if I have understood correctly it is their contractors who have been doing the damage with their own staff left to mend the damage.  Perhaps we should be urging Network Rail to apply more pressure on their contractors.

Is this to do with the gas leak at Reading Station (reported elsewhere on this forum I believe)

Hopefully if Network Rail (NR) do put the pressure on they won't do it by raising the local gas supply to extreme levels - we don't want to be going round in circles...

Paul

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Both maybe?....but there's little else FGW can do really.

But Network Rail is responsible for hiring the contractors and is responsible for the proper operation of the track and signalling. The pressure needs to go on Network Rail who, in turn, should sort their contractors out.

But the choice of contractor, how many, the overall work plan and oversight of the scheme is Network Rail's responsibility. These incidents seem to have been going on far too long and are too frequent. If I were a government minister I'd be looking to haul somebody at Network Rail over the coals; if I were a director at Network Rail I'd be looking to sort this out quickly and once and for all before the minister telephones. Yes, accidents happen but as was said on this theme in, I think, "Goldfinger" the third or fourth time it's "enemy action"

Does this apply to Crossrail works too?

Not entirely sure with Crossrail but if the Government has allowed a separate body to work on Network Rail property or if NR don't have some responsibility for the work then they're barking mad as the scope for confusion is enormous.

The problem with major works on and around aging infrastructure is the fragility of it, more often than not a fault will appear days or even weeks after a work activity, within projects we do our very best to plan out these risks, to stage works to remove fragile equipment which can be very costly because it may not be required at that stage and my have to be reworked.  Risk assessments are carried out for each worksite, plans are drawn up on how to protect assets in the work area and even teams held on standby just to carry out faulting and repairs if the risk is deemed to be very high.

There are penalties imposed on contractors if they cause train delays as a result of their activities, however these are limited in the terms of the contracts, if there were no limits contractors would not bid for the work.  

Sitting in a please explain why meeting with program directors, or even Network Rail (NR) executive members and TOC executives is definitely a no coffee or biscuits meeting and you have to have all of the answers ready.  I have known it where it has been recommended to senior project managers that they consider a career change

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

NR are managing all of the "on network" Crossrail works

Very true. We had a fused switched spur to a boiler that worked fine for many years, until the day it was switched off, then on again (or not, as it turned out). The slightest push in the wrong place can be too much for something that has given no previous problems, especially when the policy for replacement is not "just in time", but "well overdue".

I can imagine.  When we had that High Speed Train (HST) fail at Pewsey for several hours our MD bought everyone involved into a meeting including the driver.  Most thought this was going to be a laid back, friendly chat where we pull the wool over the MDs eyes, turned out the MD tore strips off just about everyone involved. 
Just because a person or organisation gives a public impression that they don't care, that they're laid back, disinterested doesn't mean to say that that's the case behind closed doors.
I think a few people sat up and took notice after that meeting.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Yes but this pressure needs to go all the way down to those who actually cause the damage. Yes Network Rail (NR) are responsible for selecting their contractors, but their contractors are then responsible for carrying out the work properly.  If Network Rail (NR) do not push on their contractors then they are truly the only ones to blame as nothing will change. It is the contractors who can make a change.  I would like to see some uncomfortable meetings between the CEO of Network Rail (NR) and the CEO of the contractors concerned. 

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Hmmm.  With both my previous client hats on and my current contractors hat on ( ;D) my experience is that getting two MDs to have an argument doesn't get the industry anywhere.  The railway industry needs to work together to achieve success and avoid failures such as those discussed above. Shouting at each other and sacking people never solves anything but just makes it worse as you then lose the knowledge of whats gone on before.  I once worked for a business called 'Railtrack' whose policy was to 'shout and sack' and look what happened to them  :P

But this is becoming a major problem that can't go unaddressed. I'm glad to hear these meetings are not coffee and biscuits affairs - but sooner or later somebody has to carry the can.

I agree that the contractors and sub-contractors are legally responsible for carrying out the work - that's the way the law works with chains of indemnities and warranties. But somebody at Network Rail has to carry the can as they appoint the contractors and supervise them and are the guys at the top ultimately responsible. If somebody at the top got demoted or worse it might send a message that things are being done. If this sort of shambles occurred in the private sector I know there would be consequences for somebody.

The contractors have to get the message that passengers (and I assume FGW) are rightly very very angry.

I think you missed my point.  I didn't say that it shouldn't be seriously addressed but there are good ways and bad ways of achieving that.  You seem to be suggesting that those of us who work at the 'coal face' in the contracting industry don't care which is in fact far from the actual truth. I get just as frustrated as anybody else when the delays occur but at least I understand that we all live in an imperfect world and that there will always be good times and bad times.

I understand your problem only too well. But if problems keep happening and p****ing off the paying public, who's going to take the can? Something has to happen to sort it.

I suspect that having contractors be more careful isn't the whole answer.

Network rail still operate the infrastructure, and do most of the testing. They also have to set out the processes for doing the work, and coordinate the various bits of NR and other parties as well as the upgrade contractors. So the first questions is whether the processes defined are realistic.

Given that the work has do be done in a very confined space and time, at night (and even with a lot of lighting there are dark areas), and what's there is not perfectly documented, there is a lot of scope for things to go wrong. So the process has to cover all those possibilities. There are several cases where similar required processes were not. For example, the mandatory use of organophosphate sheep dip, where the rules were supposedly able to protect farm workers being harmed by what was a known toxin. After many years of argument, it was finally admitted by government that perhaps a farmer working with limited time, money, and hands in lousy weather and with a bunch of very stroppy sheep could not be expected to always use the protective clothing and methods without lapses. This could be something similar.

I'm sure the work involves a lot of moving cables out of the way before doing something (like drilling a hole). Moving a cable is likely to trigger a problem, and it may be latent - i.e. not cause a visible signalling fault until you do something else, perhaps miles away, and much later. How much testing do you do after such each cable move? The probability of this happening in any one instance is low, but if you do enough of them, on cables unmoved for a long time ...

I would also note that identifying and shaming those who do cock up, or extracting penalty payments, is only a means to and end. What is needed is fewer of these events in the future. Too much time spent playing pass the penalty parcel is a distraction, and one that is already too prevalent in both the rail and construction industries.

The equipment is seriously old & hasn't been moved for years (if at all) - if it has to be moved to get the OLE in place, what to do if its fragile & breaks every move?....difficult.

OK then perhaps this will cheer everybody up ::) ;) http://railnews.mobi/news/2014/10/10-network-rail-says-sorry-for.html

I do appreciate that problems will keep happening and yes it would be so much better if Network Rail (NR) and their contractors could do a better job. However as a member of the paying public, what is p***ing me off so much is FGW's attitude to their customers.

It seems to me that whenever there is any disruption we're left to fend for ourselves standing on platforms listening to just a few automated announcements and with inaccurate information being displayed on screens, especially trains just disappearing for no reason.

Yes FGW are improving, they're getting better at announcing revised plans in advance. However these plans are not always well-thought out, for example they often involve removing fast services to and from Twyford and Maidenhead while at the same time leaving 45-60 minute gaps in the stopping service at peak hours. In any case, what's the logic in passengers to and from Twyford (TWY) and Maidenhead (MAI) having to fight for space with those from Southall and Hayes?

Meanwhile FGW's most loyal customers, annual season ticket holders like myself, just get the same old 5% renewal discount as if performance had been just generally bad enough to fall beneath the trigger level. Yes I know that's the rule throughout the industry but is it really fair?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Not much....gone beyond apologies now, in my view.

I seem to recall there was another furious outbreak of messages some months ago so the problems are, as I said, ongoing.

I'm not getting at the workers but please would somebody (a) at a very senior level in Network Rail say we're sorry (seems partly to have been done); (b) at a very senior level within NR say what they're going to actually do to get a serious and realistic grip on the problem and follow it through; and (c) persuade FGW to cough up properly for what happened on Monday (though ultimately that should be for NR's account).

OK the Great Western line may not have seen serious investment for years but that is part of the challenge NR has to face. If there are serious issues then how about being upfront about it and say we have a problem because of past under investment, this is what we propose to do to deal with it and these are short term knock-on consequences. Nobody likes (constant) surprises.

That will not be said in public much now, it upsets the principle funders .............. Her Majesty's Gouvernment (HMG)

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

I see there were posters up at main stations today, with a personal apology from from FGW MD Mark Hopwood.

I agree with others that we need to be seeing apologies from Network Rail, perhaps  by video and posted on National Rail and FGW's websites. Has there even been any NR spokesperson on record in recent days, across the media?

I know that's unlikely, but Network Rail are very quick to engage the media with the positive news stories that the GWML improvements are bringing. Those fancy timelapse videos are brilliant and I predict we'll see more when the mobile knitting machines come out.

However when Network Rail fupp up they should be on record apologising.

The LCD screens at major stations that belong to Network Rail are trailing an apology from them and FGW. But yes, the Route MD apologising live on major news programmes should happen the day of disruption

Not sure I agree with the logic here :)

Most of the people who would benefit from the apology will probably be stuck on trains !

But too late for broadcast news the day after....its done, dusted & that day's news takes priority

That is also true.

That will not be said in public much now, it upsets the principle funders .............. Her Majesty's Gouvernment (HMG)

Perhaps a co-ordinated campaign of letters to travellers' MPs might help. If their postbags start bulging questions will be asked.

Also, Her Majesty's Gouvernment (HMG) might get some credibility by being upfront about the past lack of investment and saying they're trying to correct it. But I suppose honesty is not a concept that is well understood by many MPs (unless you're the Member for Clacton........?)

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

There is an apology on the Network Rail Web Site at

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Network-Rail-comment-on-this-week-s-disruption-on-the-Great-Western-Main-Line-2183.aspx

and it includes


Is it my mis-reading, or does that say "we're totally looking to the future, and not giving any attention to the chaos we might be causing while we're doing so"?

There is  also have an apology at the stations ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/nr_apology.jpg)

Anyone care to type in that URL?   Is it practical?  ;D

Clicky here (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/2014/october/first-great-western-welcomes-network-rail-apology)

Does not appear to link me directly to where one can claim compensation though ...

Maybe if it was more practical more people would claim? Not accusing anyone but its a theory... ;)

And perhaps people could bombard Patrick Hallgate - the route director for Western Region at NR. I see he's quoted in the local press around Oxford about electrification and redoubling to Hanborough and Charlbury in the 2020s.

Alternatively email fgw.feedback@firstgroup.com with the following

1) A photograph of your ticket (and photo ID if applcable)
2) Date and time of your affected journey as well as the start and end points.

And then wait for them to reply with other information such as inside leg measurement which you didn't think they needed at the time of sending the original email.

I think you've hit the nail on the head..........the trickier and less well publicised it is, the fewer people will bother.......how often during "normal" periods of disruption are customers proactively advised as to how they can claim compensation? I can never remember it happening.......ooooh aren't I cynical!  :D

Actually as a statement I quite like that URL - it shows where FGW thinks the blame should lie.

From ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2014-10-15/first-great-western-apologise-for-rail-chaos/):


Yes it's good that Patrick Hallgate is now on record apologising, but I have a great deal of sympathy for FGW. It's they that get all the brick-bats from the travelling public despite being entirely blameless for last week's travel disruption. I'm aware that once you put your name on the side of a train you become the public face of the entire industry. I also appreciate that many folk are unaware that the train operator does not have responsibility for the infrastructure. That said, I'm not entirely comfortable with apologies being given by blameless parties. It would, I think, be much better for the party at fault to be making the apologies. Through the operator if needs be, worded something like:

"Network Rail would like to apologise to all First Great Western passengers..."

A joint letter to an MP is a start, but I'd like to see more humble pie eating by Patrick Hallgate for last week's debacle.

Might be a coincidence, but the wagons in Langley sidings haven't been filled up with foundation posts to be installed each night since last week's problems.  Work halted whilst things are investigated?

With GWML electrification already seriously over-budget it won't be helpful if work has had to be halted.

This work is down to Crossrail and has been subcontracted to Balfour Beatty, who operate from the sidings at Langley. GWML is paying for electrification from Maidenhead (exclusive) westwards.

This made the news on the TV this morning too.. They said that the electrification work would be put on hold/slowed down whilst they worked out how to stop this sort of thing happening..

Incidentally there are signalling problems again this morning.. My train is cancelled... ???

My train this morning, the 0653 from TWY (0620 from DID) wasn't delayed into PAD but it did arrive into HEx Platform 6!

The problems this morning are immediately outside Paddington.

Track circuit failures outside Paddington which is a repeat of a fault from earlier on this week.  Track circuits are failing because of what's known as 'wet beds'. Basically the track bed is saturated and is not draining properly.

Leaves, rain, sunshine, heat, cold, ice or snow............can all be guaranteed to bring the railway to a grinding halt............tricky stuff is weather!  ::)

Luckily I have a very understanding employer.. Goodness knows what people who don't have that do..

We haven't even had excessive rain either....

But Ex-hurricane Gonzalo due next week....ho hum

The amount of lines that have flooded across the country in the past few months with minimal rainfall is testament to the fact that Network Rail's maintenance is severely lacking.
Surely Network Rails delay minutes must be steadily rising yet no one at the DfT is in the slightest bit concerned or they've choosen to turn a blind eye.  The last two freight train derailments on the network investigated by the RAIB have both come back highlighting track faults as a cause.

Just listening to the radio and they're reporting delays between Chelsmford and Liverpool St of appx 45 minutes due to....... signalling problems

Carnage all day, according to Journey Check.

Yet more problems today between Ealing Broadway & Paddington:

http://www.journeycheck.com/firstgreatwestern/ (http://www.journeycheck.com/firstgreatwestern/)


Apologies - this has been mentioned on the October 2014 thread - please delete this post if it doesnt require a separate theread!

Mod Note: No problem - merged with existing topic - bobm

To be honest it's simply appalling and an extension of the p*** poor "service" last week.

The fact that one of the richest, most technologically advanced countries on Earth is unable to maintain a railway without failing on basics such as bodging through cables or being unable to drain a couple of days worth of rainwater from the track bed, along with frequent mechanical failures and staff being "unavailable" bears all the marks of something which is rapidly becoming unfit for purpose.

I don't particularly care who is to blame, from where I sit there is a duality of ineptitude between NR and FGW concerning their respective responsibilities and I'm sick of one blaming the other and/or the DfT.......in the real World, you take it on the chin, front up and say sorry to your customers whilst having these arguments behind closed doors and making sure things improve......you don't point fingers, quibble over the miserly compensation which may be due or make it difficult to claim it.

Hundreds of thousands of customers spend millions of ^ a year on some of the highest fares in Europe and rely on FGW to get them to work and they are entitled to expect better than this 4th class weekly or more recently daily farce.........we constantly hear "it'll get better in a few years" - I have no faith in this at all based on the current incumbents- what a great advert for a new 5 year franchise.

To me, it seems that with a major re-signalling programme, major infrastructure renewals, and a major electrification scheme all under way, as little money as possible will be spent on making the old stuff last a few more months, and puntuality will come a distant second to safety.

Sorry, TaplowGreen, but it will get better in a few years. Until then, it will hopefully stagger along reasonably well.

As I have previously remarked, increasingly we have a fair weather only weekday only railway.
Services at weekends and near holiday times have been disrupted by ongoing "improvement" works that never seem to improve matters.
Monday morning services are liable to disruption from  overrunning engineering works.
Most of us are now aware that large areas of the network can be disabled by a single lightning strike or cable theft.
No one expects a normal service in bad weather.

It now seems that an entirely normal wet spell results in dozens of cancellations and many other services only serving a small portion of the intended route.

Any reasonable person would accept that things go wrong, but surely not this often ? Major problems seem to occur at least once a week, three days last week and once this week.

Whilst most of the problems seem to be network rail, I feel that FGW could respond a bit better. After all signalling disruption is rapidly becoming a normal operating condition !
Since only a limited number of trains can run on certain days, FGW should perhaps give more attention to doubling up DMUs so as to ensure that the reduced number of paths are utilised by full length trains.

Given notice the previous evening, I'm sure an effort to double-up tirbos could be made. However, failures of this kind aren't predicable. Thus I think its unfair to expect the operator to do this. It requires planning

Forgive me as I know NOTHING about how the railway, depots, stations etc work but, if there are multiple trains standing idle at Reading depot and there is severe disruption in the morning, is there really no one available to move a 3-car into one of the Reading platforms to hook up to another incoming 3-car service from Banbury/Oxford ?

This morning for example, the signal issues were reported before 6am according to JourneyCheck. One of the morning services (something around 7:26) from Goring was cancelled (think its an HST). The following service (7:38) was ontime and relatively quiet for a morning of disruption. By Pangbourne it was busy. By Tilehurst it was solid. Most got off at Reading, only to be replaced with similar numbers (side note, no one stopped the bikes getting on at Reading). By the time we left Twyford it was standing room only.

We pulled up at Maidenhead and the fight to get off ensued, but as I was getting off, one of the platform staff was apologising to those standing in the vestibule as he asked them to move so they could load a wheel chair. It was already standing room only, and that was without those at Maidenhead getting on. I have no idea what the outcome was but I felt sorry for the poor lady in the wheelchair knowing it would be like sardines once everyone else tried to push on.

All of that could have been avoided with a couple of extra carriages at Reading. Yes we may have been delayed a few minutes while it was hitched up, but in the grand scheme of things that would have been nothing.

I know some of the trains at Reading are in for maintenance or whatever, but not all of them are.

And yes this is a genuine question - there is nothing more frustrating than passing the depot full of trains (there were 9 sitting there the other week when the signal issues occurred), when you are crammed in the one that's moving  :(

A lighter moment - checking on FGW's website for the current state of play, I came across this invaluable snippet of information in the Journey Checker:


Eh?

I know our local (Thatcham) station master reasonably well. He is very proud of the station and in the early hours of the morning you will see him brushing up rubbish and fag ends from the (non smoking) platforms.

However when he ventures out on to the platform without his broom I've learnt that he is about to impart helpful but bad news. This morning was no exception.

I was in no mad panic to get to london as I had left myself plenty of time and got to my end destination only one minute late.

When I was in the office I was talking to commuters who had come in from Brighton , Colchester and Peterborough and it seems like they all have problems on their lines so we are no alone.

Here is hoping for a better day tomorrow

Spotted this at Oxford on my journey home last night: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomlane_web/15560106151/

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-29641605)

That was from Thursday, though I don't think it was posted here.

Two points strike me. One is that "engineers carrying out piling works had hit a power cable" still leaves it unclear which of the piling crew's activities did the damage.

The other point is ... Oxfordshire? I though it was near Slough. Does the BBC Oxford know something we don't, or do they not know where Oxfordshire is?

Maybe Oxfordshire has expanded as far as Slough though no one has told me if so :-)

I got a letter from Network Rail warning me of piling works on the tracks through Maidenhead for the next few weeks and warning there might be noise.. I'm not THAT close to the railway line (probably a five minute walk if I were to be able to walk in a straight line to it) so hopefully it won't be too noisy when they are doing it on the stretch of track nearest my house.. Assuming they do it after that report..

And how long does it take when sober?  ;D

Apologies for being cheeky.

Ha Ha very funny :-) When sober I can't walk through people's houses and gardens so imagine it would be more like ten minutes ;-)

Next up are Didcot Parkway and Swindon as the works head West I guess? Either that or the rain  ::)

And a third now - the initial thoery of the cause of the recent coal train derailment in the Vale of Glamorgan is a rail defect...poor, very poor - were no lessons actually learnt from Potters Bar, Grayrigg...?!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29661936 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29661936)

There is a link on the above BBC page to the initial Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) report

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Overrunning over-night engineering works according to the dispatcher at Didcot.  The first up Bristol (1L01) was held 45 minutes at Swindon and was 55 down entering PAD.

Next up overnight - ex-Hurricane Gonzalo......good luck in the morning, folks!

Also discussed on the Coffee Shop forum, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14668.msg163572#msg163572  ;)

Just like the freight train derailment at Gloucester back last year.

Kind of relevant and a bit belated.

But it seems the network held up relatively well with the weather/'hurricane'.

Yes, it was fairly tame down south.  The biggest problem with strong winds is the risk of large trees being brought down, and as such there's an element of luck involved as to just how many fall, what time and where.  This time the railway network was fairly 'lucky'.  Mind you, another problem in Autumn is strong winds bringing down a lot of leaves and rain then making them incredibly slippery, so the skills of a driver are often truly tested at such times.

Evidence of the slipping and sliding, following the leaf fall brought about by the high winds, can be heard when on board.

Many trains I've taken in the past few days have noticeable wheel flats.

I am still baffled as to why in our benign climate such a minor feature of nature which has been occurring since the dawn of time has the potential to bring chaos to the railways (along with almost every other form of weather to be fair!)

Surely there must be a way of addressing it? (other than felling every tree within a 5 mile radius of the line?)

There are certain species (as I recall the dreaded sycamore is a particular offender) who's leaves produce a more slippery rail head which are specifically targetted and are removed. Equally, species prone to dropping large limbs or suffering other wind damage should also be targetted for removal.

This is also something which has arisen since the demise of steam traction. When everything was steam powered the trackside areas & embankments were religiously cleared of virtually all vegetation to reduce the incidences of lineside fires. Obviously that was no longer such an issue with diesel & electric trains, so the lineside vegetation was allowed to flourish from the late 1960's onwards. Considerable effort over the past 10-15 years has been put in to manage trackside vegetation from a point of view of improving rail head conditions and visibility from level crossings & the lineside.

There is also the issue that many trains are now disc braked, which means that the wheel treads are no longer cleared each time the brakes are applied and brake performance is massively superior with disc brakes (equally as is acceleration) which in itself raises the likelihood of a slip.

So, in other words, the problem has existed forever, just more of an issue in the past 50 years or so since the advent of diesel & electric traction and is an evolving problem as other technologies change.

We now also have the situation that these areas have become important wildlife corridors and habitats, so need to be carefully managed.

It is also the case that traction units are much lighter, the heavier 100 tonne locomotives had far better adhesion however their power to weight ratio was poor, modern multiple unit traction with distributed traction along the train (or at least a couple of coaches) are more energy efficient, lower rolling resistance etc however a little bit of "grease" (ie leaves and moisture) and they don't have the mass to displace the "grease"

I was waiting at Slough last night when a High Speed Train (HST) ECS came through on the up relief.
The last power car's wheels were making a hell of a noise, it sounded oval shaped. Possibly going for repair / lift ?
There was that brilliant tv programme recently where they showed them changing a bogie overnight, but that my have been Laira.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Not forgetting a massive reduction in driving wheel circumference which will alter the dynamics considerably.

Also of note for anyone who hasn't had the joy of working on a railway in wet weather, is that if you step (strictly against the rules!) on a wet but otherwise clean rail, you pretty quickly discover that a rubber boot sole slips as if it was on smooth ice, so it gives a bit of an appreciation of what happens to a steel wheel when you stick a bit of wet, slippery, partially decomposed leaf matter in between it and the rail!

A major problem with leaf fall after high winds in early autumn is that the leaves are still quite green and thus full of moisture.

Last year I learnt this at personal cost. Moist leaves on the steps outside my flat led to an A over T moment and a broken coccyx. Still gives me occasional gyp.

Credit to the train drivers out there though. Takes some skill to drive a train when rail head conditions are poor. Better to have a few 50p shaped wheels than a SPAD or unintended meeting with a buffer stop.

Today's treat is a broken down freight train at Langley, with 20 minute delays into Paddington. I've been stop/start since before Slough.
Edit : I'm already 40 mins late, still nr Southall

I'm guessing that the broken down freight is the one in the RTT link below, the GBRf 0203 from Moreton-on-Lugg to Harlow Mill:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02683/2014/10/24/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02683/2014/10/24/advanced)

Looking at the real time log it looks as if it mangaged to break down  between Langley (pass 1E) and and the entrance to the  West Drayton Up goods Loop (Just West of Iver Station). Where it was booked for a 1 hour 46 wait.

Looks like Murphy's Law (Rail) A train will always breakdownw in the most inconvinient place!

Indeed, I was 65 mins late into PAD.

And ironically, after having caused approx 1 hour delays to many FGW trains this morning, it looks like the freight has since passed Acton Wells Jct running just 30 seconds late!

Nice to have a bit of variety at least, makes a change from signal failures, FGW train failures,staff "unavailability", leaves, rainfall, sunshine etc?

As far as I can see on RTT, that goods train (663V) rejoined the Up Relief as scheduled, and has passed Willesden 3L. 1P91 went through Langley P4 after it.

The train that's showing as lost in transit isn't a goods train, it's 2P17 RDG-PAD, which shows as still in Langley P4. So 663V would have had the relief line all to itself to West Ealing. The next few trains crossed to the Up Main at Dolphin Jcn.

Just heard a rumour that a Turbo has now failed at Ealing Broadway, I believe it might be 2P34 0834 DID-PAD which according to RTT has gone nowhere since 1008. Never rains...

Journeycheck has changed...


EDIT: 2P34 has passed Acton West 70 down. Ouch.

That's going to go down well at the intermediate stations. Langley, Southall, Hayes were all packed with people as I crawled through on the 'fast' line. I could see the station boards showing multiple cancellations and the advice on Twitter was to go direct to PAD and double back to intermediate stops.

...........not sure if the rumours are true, but I hear the new FGW staff uniform has been inspired by the Keystone Kops...........

No it was this one - 05:54 Acton to West Drayton freight

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H34970/2014/10/24/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H34970/2014/10/24/advanced)

"Your" one (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02683/2014/10/24/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02683/2014/10/24/advanced)) was one of those caught up behind it.

Edit note: This was in reply to a now edited comment from TaplowGreen replaced by the post above.

I remain unconvinced.

2P17 is now shown on RTT as
639Z 0554 Acton T.C. to West Drayton A.R.C. went "off the record" from 06:21 to 08:41, but the delays started after 07:30. I guess there are quite a few places for a goods train to lurk without getting its presence detected.

Python-esque scenes spring to mind of a bloody great freight service hiding behind trees etc... ;)

2P17 was trapped behind the failed freight and was terminated at Langley before being sent back to Slough to form another service.

I'm now delayed 15 mins passing Maidenhead on the way home due to an earlier train fault.
This day is just total fail.

And it looks like it's by no means over yet, services currently at a stand in the West Drayton area, FGW tweeting about a train having 'hit something'.

EDIT: Now sadly being confirmed as a fatality.

Discussion on this latest incident, as it's unrelated to to Thames Valley signalling issues, is in a separate topic:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14791.msg164034#msg164034

Another signalling debacle this morning. Fast line between maidenhead and slough is closed due to signalling problems apparently. From the HST movements it looks like both ways.

This morning my First Class ticket has bought me a cramped standing space outside the revolving toilet.

Both Up and Down main closed due to a points failure at Maidenhead.

Temporary repair made to get by the rush hour.

Also just to add to the mess, the 0709 RDG-PAD stopper failed to the east of Reading blocking the UR for about 20 minutes or so.

I don't think anyone is surprised any more to be honest, it's pretty much a daily event on our basket case of a railway.......pal of mine was stuck on the stopper BBM mentioned, late for work for the 7th time this month, Boss has warned him that although he understands the situation he can't tolerate it for much longer.......does losing your job count as "consequential losses" I wonder?  >:(

Another fatality somewhere? Journeycheck reporting delays from Swindon towards PAD

Between Bath & Bristol is what has been reported, 45-60 minute delays.
Some services due through RDG around ~07:30 were showing 30 minute delay. There was an earlier trespass incident reported, I don't know how all this is interrelated.

I left RDG on time on a fast service and lost 17 minutes getting to PAD.

Twitter was reporting a body found on the track between Bath/Bristol earlier.

Reported here http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14829.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14829.0)

Yet more chaos late last night, signal problems again, services after 11pm hugely delayed and cancelled - people stranded until well into the early hours...

Yikes. I was quite lucky this morning then to be delayed by only 10 minutes through Maidenhead due to congestion behind a train that earlier had difficulties.

Another problem. This time between Swindon and Didcot.

Edit: Looks like it was a (relatively, compared to the others) minor thing...

Signalling problems again today..From Journeycheck..

"Delays to services between Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington Due to signalling problems between Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington some Reading bound fast lines are blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 10 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed."

And also from Twitter:

"Following signal problems the 18:58 Paddington to Penzance service will be going back to Southall. Updates to follow"

Curiously this appears (according to RTT) to form a booked service from Swindon to Westbury and is just about to pass MKM around 45 down (without stopping for clarification).

From what I could see on realtime trains it was to Plymouth not Penzance but maybe there were in a hurry to post it.. It does look like it did a bit of reversing around Southall according to realtime trains but as you say is on it's way again now

Also and maybe related or not there was another journeycheck entry for the 19.22 Paddington to Oxford service:

"This train will call additionally at Southall.
This is due to an unusually large passenger flow."

It makes me wonder if it was related to the other post or just a coincidence

Lots of work on the Berks and Hants this weekend and for the next five or six weekends.

Southall West Loop was "converted" by Network Rail for use by passenger trains because of a points failure.

Is it time for a November thread yet ? The problem is at Southall according to Twitter.

Delays to services between Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington
Due to signalling problems between Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington trains have to run at reduced speed on the Reading bound fast line.
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 20 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Topic heading updated (yet again) accordingly. CfN.  ;)

Brave! To only add this month makes one think everything will be ok next month! :-)

18.18 to oxford is dangerously overcrowded.  >:(

Looks like the 18.18, which is always rammed anyway, has picked up much of the contents of the delayed 17.49.

Incidentally have any other season ticket holders been contacted by fgw about the early October delays?  Thought we were due a refund or such like...

1749 to Worcester shrub hill was (1) announced on the train as delayed by a train problem, (2) once we've all got off then it's announced as being about to depart, (3) repeat of (1), (4) repeat of (2).
Leaves Paddington about 25 late. At Reading it's announced that it's only going to Evesham. As we pass Didcot it's announced as going through to shrub hill. Now at Oxford. Who knows...

I toyed with the alternative of renaming this topic "Thames Valley signalling problems causing delays - ongoing discussion", but I felt that would be the act of a pessimist ...  ;) :D ;D

I was on the 17.49.. I got off when we were told they didn't think they could mend it.. I ignored the advice we were given to get the 18.18 as I know it's already a crowded train so headed for 18.12 Henley train.. As I get to platform 11 I could hear the 17.49 being announced so headed back over there.. But no.. It was still broken so went back to the 18.12.

That is a delight in itself as it follows a stopper (even though it only really stops at Slough before Maidenhead) so is incredibly slow and tortuous.. Can't be much fun for the driver really either.. The good thing about that is that no one wants to get it so lots of room for me  ::) ;D

In the end we arrived back in Maidenhead about 8 minutes after the delayed 17.49 and whilst the 18.18 was still decamping people onto platform 1..

Note to self.. No point trying to get home early.. Next time go to the pub instead  ;D ;D

That would be the act of a pragmatist.  ;) :D ;D

No, and I have been looking out for it. I did though get invited by FGW to undertake a survey for season ticket holders in light of the disruptions of late.

A refund has been declared (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Home/contents/travel-advice) and I believe it is a Void Day, but it doesn't specify it in their letter (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/PDF/contents/travel-advice/october%20void%20days/Dear%20Customer%20annual.pdf). Clue is in the title though ...

[Edited to say...] All the Void Days, including the infamous wet week in February are detailed here (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Refunds).

And a realist  ;D

I've seen the pictures of this service on arrival at Maidenhead (I think)- absolutely unbelievable, must be close to worst overcrowding ever on a single service?

Where can I see that?

Someone had taken a picture and put it on Twitter.

Cancellations to services between Worcester Shrub Hill and Oxford

Due to poor rail conditions between Worcester Shrub Hill and Oxford all lines are blocked.

Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 60 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Last Updated 04/11/2014 09:00

Honeybourne would appear to be the problem spot.

It must be bad luck but three times in the last few weeks I've planned to board this service at Paddington only for it to fail or leave late due to attendance of fitters.

Interesting note on RTT for the 0648 from PAD to Great Malvern which appears to have only got as far as Moreton-in-Marsh:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40903/2014/11/04/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40903/2014/11/04/advanced)


 ;D

Yes, the 18.18 came in on Platform 1 rather than Platform 3.  Lets face it, neither platform can adequately cope with the quantity of passengers on an overcrowded 18.18 but Platform 1 is definitely worst.
Overcrowding was such that passengers couldn't actually get off the train due to numbers on the platform.  There was much jostling and the chance of someone taking a slip down the gap was high - people were having to push themselves away from the train.  There was certainly no gap between crowds and train before the doors were shut and the train departed.  Being half-term (it seems) there were a number of small children in the crowd too.

No platform staff at all.

I can't obviously see the picture on twitter.. Did they put it against @FGW?

Yes just after 7pm last night......also read on Twitter that one very busy train went straight through Maidenhead without stopping last night due to driver error?

Any chance of putting a link on here? Twitter is obviously being selective over what I am allowed to see and what I'm not :-)

Found it now.. no thanks to twitter  ::)

And that is what happens when you try and get two busy trains worth of people onto one of those two trains.. That train was at Maidenhead for 3 minutes according to realtime trains.. 3 minutes worth of people getting off a train is quite a lot.. I'm really glad I didn't try and get on it in the first place, especially as I got back at the same time but in relative (if not slow and tortuous) comfort..

Which reminds me.. The train I was on had working air-con.. finally.. just in time for winter  ::) ::)

Absolutely shocking that there were no staff on the platform  - one of these days there will be a tragedy.....FGW simply have to take responsibility for ensuring that trains are not crush loaded to dangerous proportions......and  yes OK maybe people should sometimes go for a pint and wait until things quieten down a bit rather than trying to cram on but at the moment with the service as flaky as it is on a daily basis that isn't practical - responsibility overall for safety sits fairly and squarely with FGW.

Realtime trains showed it as swapping from platform 3 to 1 not long before it arrived so I expect the staff didn't know either until it was too late.. It's not easy to get up the stairs to platform 1 when hundreds of people are descending even had they tried once they were aware..

At least there is also a step free exit into the Shoppenhangers road car park from platform 1.. Although it looks like most people preferred to wait for the stairs

Any chance of posting the pic, or a link to it?

Only a handful of people went to shoppenhangars (incl me) as the crowd was too big to pass on the platform.
To put things in context I walked the full length of the 5/6 car service which had been filled to bursting with people standing in between seats. If there were 50 on the whole train after maidenhead id be gobsmacked.
So who's good at maths and estimating the Maidenhead passengers on board?? ;)

Logically, that leads to some very interesting thoughts ... if there's empty seats beyond [name place] on the trip out from London, why not split the train and send the extra carriages back to strengthen another train - resulting in more seats out of London.    I know I'm going to get shot down on time taken to split and join trains, line capacity issues, ... but it's an interesting thought.  And perhaps something that will be borne in mind for whole trains rather than just parts of them come service recasts/

Good for stopping the windows getting steamed up so you can see out of them  ;)...I'll get my coat.

NickB - after lots of fruitless searching I think I did a search on @FGW and then selected photos.. or something.. it's not easy to find otherwise.. That is why I find twitter such hard work.  If I can find it again, and if it's appropriate to post it on here (does anyone know if it is?) I'll do so..

I've just found it again.. It is now easier if you do a twitter search on @Nationalrailenq and then select pictures.. At the moment (if you have pictures shown in grid style) it is third row down on the left hand side

Is this the image we are talking about:

https://twitter.com/ianpoulter99/status/529347939286921216/photo/1

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1ifHg-CMAAUm5D.jpg)

By the way, this isn't the Ian Poulter that likes to spoil good walks (after Mark Twain). Although from his Twitter profile he is quite sporty. Maybe he should have tried a bit of crowd surfing.

Thames Valley commuters. You have my sympathy.

Very busy indeed - though I've seen similar scenes at various stations over the years at times of disruption or major events.  The narrow stairwell at Maidenhead platform 1 doesn't help.  I can't see how a member of platform staff on the platform would have made one jot of difference though (other than to possibly try and divert a few more people out of the station via the car park - which is quite a long diversion if you're not going that way).

Perhaps to supervise the dispatch and make sure the train departs without anyone having slipped between it and the platform, or perhaps (clothing/bag) trapped in a door, unnoticed by the driver?! These things do happen and I believe is one of the reasons why you see platform dispatchers on the Underground during the peaks.

Yes, on seeing that picture my concern was with the driver of the DOO Turbo.

Can't be nice to see that crowd on the monitor/mirror when preparing to depart. Fingers crossed and hope for the best?

As a driver who's responsible for the despatch you wait until you are 100% sure it's safe to depart, however long that takes.  I believe the train was stationary for three-and-a-half-minutes.  Maidenhead platform 1 has no mirrors or monitors, so you use the 'look back' method.  No fingers should ever be crossed.  Simple as that.

Surely an extra pair of eyes or two on the platform would make that job easier and more watertight from a safety perspective?

I've used that exit from platform 1 on a few occasions when changing from a fast service not stopping at Twyford (TWY) over to a stopper from platform 3. It really does strike me as being a cheap stop-gap solution and surely something better is now needed if that platform now gets much more regular use these days.

On the subject of overcrowding photos on Twitter, a user called Janine Giovanni posted the below picture last night on FGW's timeline. She didn't give the location but I believe it might have been at Ealing Broadway, there were a few angry tweets last night from people with extended waits for Down trains there at around 1845-1915, some were saying they were unable to board trains.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1nuSgNIcAAXqM9.jpg)

EDIT: Apologies, forgot to include the link: https://twitter.com/janinegiovanni/status/529716434814119936/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/janinegiovanni/status/529716434814119936/photo/1)

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronym

There have been occasions when a member of staff(s) has been on the platform and asked people to keep behind the yellow line, obviously to help dispatch. Don^t know what happened this time, perhaps too interested in checking tickets at turnstiles^.  :(
Being held up for 3 minutes on the down fast (plus deceleration and acceleration) is going to have lots of re-percussions further ^up^ the line.

Apologies if my 'Fingers crossed' comment came across as flippant. Not my intention.

With it being the 'look back' method I'd be even more concerned about DOO when a platform is that crowded. What does the driver do? Keep looking back until the whole train is clear of the platform and not look forward? Or switch between craning his neck out and checking the line ahead? Or just, after doors closed and interlocked, watch the road ahead?

I can tell you what did happen, as I was walking towards the driver away from the crowds and towards the carpark.
Doors shut, driver window closed.  Away.  Definitely 200+ people still on platform, and definitely the wrong side of the yellow in large numbers.
I don't know what the driver could have done differently without holding up the line for >10mins.

In my opinion waiting until everyone on the platform was safely clear of the train, even if it causes a delay would've been the right thing to do, especially without any assistance from platform staff. A small delay of 10 mins or so has to be better than someone not going home. The driver should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, be questioned on such a decision surrounding safety of passengers, staff, equipment or infrastructure, even if it results in his/her train and any other behind being delayed. The recent incident of a woman being trapped in a train door at Newcastle is a prime example of what can go wrong with train doors & when staff fail or are otherwise unable to complete their pre-departure checks correctly.

Yep.
I saw a number of people unable to disembark due to the whole platform being full.  They were directly in the doorways, already braced for the doors to close on them and shouting at passengers on the platform to make way to let them off before the doors closed.

TTBOMK they made it off eventually and didn't have to go to Twyford.

Absolutely correct, and at least one of the station staff should have been on the platform ensuring the safety of the dispatch, they must have known that this service was dangerously crush loaded and if the platform changed from 3 to 1 at short notice the driver should have waited until there was a member of staff on Platform 1 to make sure the situation was safe before opening the doors - knowing Maidenhead station as I do, staff can often be found congregating around the heater in the main entrance near the ticket gates.

And how, prey, would that staff member be able to check/help the driver?

They'd simply end up being another human in the crush, unable to see more than, and possibly less than, the driver.

I suggest that the driver ought to have waited for the platform to clear.

If the platform is too crowded for a train to start and very slowly leave, is it possible to safely run non-stop trains through it? Doesn't that have to wait for a much lower passenger density - at the very least least none in front of the line (depending on the line speed)? So the knock-on delay isn't going to be much if anything at all.

.......erm.....by standing by the Driver's cab and letting him know when the platform is clear? I'd suggest the delay is a price worth paying rather than someone ended up between the platform and the train?

As delays seem to be Business as usual for every other reason for the last 6 weeks I'm sure a few minutes could be tolerated for Safety? In my industry it comes above all else.

If FGW allows trains to depart in dangerously overcrowded conditions and  disgorges passengers onto similarly overcrowded/dangerous platforms then the onus is on them to ensure safety, not the passengers .

Of some relevance here is the report from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch into the sad incident in Liverpool on 22 October 2011: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9790.msg121102#msg121102

Who said anything about no delay? Please read what I wrote above.

BUT - little purpose in him/her standing by the cab? Just as easy for the driver to look out frankly. Better further down the train ensuring that everyone has alighted that needs to & signal doors close?

Interesting arguments coming forward on this one.  I'm with ChrisB and speak as someone who has self despatched my train at incredibly busy stations many, many times over the years.  My reasons are:

• The procedure at Maidenhead is for a driver to self despatch.  If you then start altering that arrangement ad-hoc then you run the risk of not coming to a clear understanding with those staff members on the platform who are trying to help.  Does a wave of an arm from a member of staff two carriages away mean it's ok to leave, or does it mean there's a mother and pushchair about to try and alight from those doors?
• Personally, I find a 'look back' dispatch is often better than using the mirrors which are open to glare, distortion, misting up etc. - and when you're looking back from the drivers cab your eye-line is pretty much perfectly in line with the doors, so if you can see the back of the train you know it's clear.  The view from a mirror is not so in line.  Having platform staff turn up and get in the way of that view can be a hindrance.  Having them stand by the cab means they have no better view than the driver does.

However, assuming NickB's observations are accurate (though I'd be amazed if it took more than ten minutes for the platform to clear as he suggest), then despite the driver despatching using the correct procedure (once you have 'door interlock' you then concentrate on what's in front rather than behind as you depart) if the platform was as congested as in the picture then he/she was foolish to depart.  You wait until it's clear enough that you're confident it's safe to depart, however long that takes.

There will always be some form of risk at the 'platform/train interface', and whether, as trains get busier and busier, the despatch procedures at Maidenhead need to be looked into is another matter, but for me there is a far greater risk from passengers standing close to the edge as a fast train rushes through at Maidenhead, than there is on a train departing which passengers know is there because they've alighted from it.[/list]

How about someone looking out of the rear cab window to see the train away safely, with the option of stopping the train in an emergency...?  ;) :-X

As someone who has self despatched at Maidenhead with that service from platform 1 previously it doesn't take that long for passengers to filter off the platform enough for you to safely despatch the train.
Maidenhead you have quite a good view of the whole length of the train.  I will personally self despatch the train once I have a clear view of the whole length of the train for 20-30 seconds.  By a clear view I mean the width 2 people.  The width of 2 people for the entire length of the train ensures that everyone has alighted the train.  
What you tend to find is that passengers alighting first tend to by in a hurry for whatever reason and will jostle and brush alongside the train.  Those that alight last tend to calmly wait and filter off the platform and not come into contact with the train.
However, I'm in the school that will look back until the entire length of the train has cleared the platform where I consider it safe enough to do so.  I do this at every platform where the signal is displaying a green and there are no track workers, foot crossings etc in front of the train.
To shut the doors and then shut your drivers window in my opinion is dangerous.  In that time any incident could of happened on the platform, you should always look back until, at the very least, the train starts moving.  Leaving your drivers window down as well increases the chances of you hearing any shouts to stop should anything happen.  
Platform staff have no ability to stop a train once it starts to move as highlighted on the underground in the last few weeks when someone got their scarf trapped in the doors of a tube train.

If there were to be a second pair of eyes, rather than platform staff how about a guard?

Every passenger train should have a guard.

You describe the safety model perfectly, and say why we should have guards, A train with nearly a thousand souls aboard, many of whom will turn up as the doors are closing and try to get on board as if their very life depended on it, is a serious responsibility. You describe also the profit model. The true balance must be  found between the two.

Very different dynamics but you get trains with 1000+ people on board and no guard, hour after hour, day after day, on the Underground.

Into the next decade TfL may introduce driverless trains on LU lines.

Driverless, with a 'Captain/Guard'  ;)

Am I right in thinking that one of the LU lines (may be Victoria?) has trains which are potentially driverless already? Or was this just something Bob Crow (RIP) used as an excuse for a strike?

I don't think the trains are, but there are LU lines that can operate GOO trains (Guard Only Operation  ;)).

TfL have always said there will always be a member of staff on-board regardless, so all this "driverless" hype that TfL put out is moot really.  I believe the next generation would be the first train that could run without an Operator at the "wheel" (cab will be there, but could be removed at later date).

It's the Victoria Line - as I understand it, the driver opens/closes doors and sets the train underway. The computer then takes it to the next station....

And the Jubilee, Northern and Central Lines I think.  Though the driver still 'drives' the train should the system have problems and to retain their knowledge of how to do so should there be problems.

I was on the 17.49 tonight.. It was no busier or quieter than usual though I've seen it a lot worse.

Realtime trains show the train arriving at 18.07 and a quarter.. The last passenger (me) left the plaftorm at exactly 18.11.. I'm not sure at which point the arrival time is calculated from so assuming it's as the front of the train comes into the platform, a good guess would be 3 minutes for platform 1 to clear..

Therefore looking at the picture from the other day (compared with today) NickB's estimate of ten minutes probably wasn't too far out

I stand vindicated!  ;) It was meant as an estimate of how long 600 people would take to leave plat1 in single file (which it is, with the bends).

I'd have a guess at 6-7 minutes myself having watched many a busy train decamp from there.  Unless of course there's another issue which causes delay, for example someone falling on the steps.  I guess we'll have to wait until similar circumstances apply again and get someone down there with a stopwatch!

Another issue can be a sudden change of platform, say from relief to main.
Suddenly, lots of people trying to go upstairs, lots of people trying to go downstairs! ::)

which is exactly what happened to this train.. To be honest if you're not already on the platform before the train arrives and starts emptying you don't get much of a chance to get up the steps against the flow of people

Looking to the future, with the extensive rebuild of Maidenhead station just starting, it looks as if alterations to the current stairwell may be included:

'The eastern subway will be extended southwards to platform 1 and new stair and lift access will be provided from it to all Crossrail platforms; passive provision will be made for a lift to platform 1.'

Now, until the extension of the route to Reading, you could probably say that Maidenhead's platform 1 would not come under the description of a 'Crossrail platform' as described above.  Whether that has now altered as Platform 1 may now be used by Crossrail trains heading to Reading I'm not sure?

Way back it was said that all main line platforms between London and Maidenhead would be made available for Crossrail Whether that is the current plan I don't know. Especialy regarding Taplow. Presuambly Platform 1 at Maidenehad would require extending to accept Crossrail. It was also why the Mains were to be electrified from Hayes to Maidenehad as well to give the operational flexibilty to use the mains and their associated platforms in times of perturbation.

The plan shows a small extension to platforms 2&3, but 1 and 4&5 apparently don't need one. All would need extending if the trains are lengthened to the maximum 240m. The "7-day railway" requirement won't have gone away.

Come to think of it, P1&2 at Maidenhead is exactly where extending to Reading might alter the plan - so what was published may not be relevant any more. There is no way from P1&2 to the reversing sidings at Maidenhead, so they could not be used for a "2T" service over the Mains. (Or not unless P1&2 were used for Crossrail turn-round, which sound unlikely when a "full" Sunday service is also using them.) If this 2T operation has to be extended to Reading, then maybe P1 has to be extended after all. Currently its operational length (ignoring DOO visibility) is 177 m, against 198 for P2&3 and 205 m for P4&5.

Going by those plans, the interpretation of 7-day or 2T capability is that existing platforms an all tracks will be extended to 205 m, but not where that have no P1 and not at some at minor stations (e.g. Iver) that do. But then the plans are not the final word (or picture).

Yes, that's what I was getting at.

I'm not sure what was going on this morning with signalling.
There were major delays to services through Bramley due to a signalling problem.
But then significant delays to London bound services passing through Reading both in arrival time at Reading and then slow running all the way in.
There was some mention of track circuit failure and general congestion all the way in but I don't see any specific mention.
I was a good 45 minutes late for the second day running.

Suggest the updater updates the update:
Delays between Basingstoke and Reading expected until 18:00        Last updated 13:50
A signalling problem near Bramley is causing delays of up to 30 minutes between Basingstoke and Reading. This is expected to continue until 13:00.

A total lack of maintenance and abysmal management by Network Rail, yet the DfT continue to allow it to happen.  If a train operator performed this badly their franchise would have been stripped by now.

...........I would imagine that a few people at FGW are looking nervously over their shoulders then judging by recent performance around cancellations/delays/short formations/dangerous overcrowding due to  train faults, staff "not available" etc!  ;)

I doubt it. FGW are in the same boat as Northern, FTPE, Anglia, London Midland and one or two others and can easily justify the reason. Not enough trains.
Should a manager leave a position they will easily get another job with another TOC or go into consultancy where there is significantly more money.
Whilst passengers continually point the finger of blame at the TOC the DfT the aren't going to take a blind bit of notice.  This afterall, is what they wanted from rail privatisation.  They knew it would cost a fortune to modernise so effectively washed their hands of it only taking an interest in bashing TOCs when a general election is close to win a few extra votes.

Up to a point, yes, but the constant blaming of DFT/NR etc does come across a bit like Laurel blaming Hardy...........FGW are responsible for maintaining their trains and ensuring that their staff attend work as far as I know, not sure how train failures, pathetic levels of communication, leaving passengers stranded without information for hours, staff unavailability etc can be blamed on other agencies?

Passengers point the finger at the TOC because they pay the TOC a great deal of money to provide a service, and it is with the TOC that they have a contract......the fact that FGWs supply chain/infrastructure partners/contractors have problems of their own is for FGW to address. it is of precisely zero interest to the customer with whom they have a contract........however as they get oodles of cash from Network Rail (NR) in respect of their own failures, with only a tiny proportion being returned to fare paying passengers in compensation is hardly a strong motivation to do so I guess.

The concept of taking it on the jaw when things go wrong and not blaming others is not something which comes easily to the TOCs/Railway industry it seems.

If First Great Western (FGW) were seen to be addressing these issues with Network Rail (NR) (especially the recent signalling farces throughout October) in a robust and highly visible way it would help their case, however Mr Hopwood seems to be doing a good impression of the invisible man.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

 ::)

Surely the only person responsible for ensuring a member of staff attends work is the member of staff themselves?

You make the "staff unavailability" comment on a regular basis every time you get on your anti-FGW soapbox.  Just to reassure you, there are not endless numbers of rail staff who cannot be bothered to attend work.

It could be unavailable due to a simple rostering error, it could be unavailable due to the disruption stranding the staff needed for the specific service (especially if specific traction/route knowledge is required.)  There are normally "cover/standby" staff that can be dispatched at a moments notice to cover late running drivers [of course you wouldn't know this as it's seemless!]...or what about drivers who require a break -- while i'm sure a late service would irritate you if the driver was sat having a cup of tea, surely this is preferable to him being forced to ignore his legal break requirements and have a safety related incident?

At what point do you want ticket prices to rise even further to cover a large pool of drivers to sit around all day watching tv, only required if Network Rail screw up the infrastructure?

General shortage of drivers?  FGW has had their biggest ever driver recruitment programme running in the past 24 months.

Yes, there are occasions where all available cover staff options have been exhausted, and someone oversleeps/goes sick last minute (do you want a sick driver in charge of your safety?), and so the blame is square on the operational staff, but this is not a regular occurrence and it really does not justify the number of times you make your swipe at "staff availability".

I've said it once and i'll say it again, staff try to do their best, whether it's at the station, on-board or just by posting on here.  There are bad apples, which applies to every company, in every industry.

There is not one member of railway staff that is happy with the LTV area performance and it hurts many of us that we are physically unable to provide the service customers pay hard earned money for, but remember we're not here just to take endless pot-shots from you.

Impressive rhetoric definitely, using a number of paragraphs to selectively address about eight words of what I said, and some things I didn't even mention!

Sorry if I touched a nerve, this is fundamentally about TOCs (not just FGW) taking responsibility for providing a service that is reliable and fit for purpose, and not just falling back on blaming other agencies when things go wrong - as I implied before, some high visibility action in terms of addressing issues around signalling etc would help, not just guff from Hopwood about "signalling" to NR that their performance isn't good enough.

I wasn't taking "Pot shots" at individuals so no need to be defensive, FGW/TOC need to take proactive ownership of issues within their control and spheres of influence rather than giving the appearance of being content to lie back and take it (so to speak) which is what enrages their customers at the moment.

Vague promises about things getting better years in the future is not really good enough when you're standing on a wet, overcrowded platform with no information or help available I'm afraid.

Anyway "amen" from me on this and have a good, delay free day all!

High-visibility".....so YouTube video then of an argument?

Get real.

Yes, I agree completely and I'm amazed that Mark Hopwood appears to be lying down and accepting the amount of rain over the last few weeks.  Weather provider, Mother Nature, really needs to sort her act out.  Mr. Hopwood should 'grow some' and publicly demand action from this elusive Mrs. Nature, or at the very least personally cough up some money to install great big buckets in the sky above his stations to catch all this unnecessary water.

The reason I take issue with eight or so words, is you make the staff "unavailable" dig on a regular basis.  I'm not saying you are targeting anyone individually, but yes you do touch a nerve, as most front-line rail staff feel they belong to an extended family.

I've given you a number of reasons as to why the delay reason "a member of train crew being unavailable" is used, and it really is extremely rare that "oh they just didn't turn up, sorry train cancelled/delayed".

As the service provider, then yes customers will look to FGW as the one to blame regardless of cause.  The fact that you are on this board shows you want/have a greater understanding of how the railway run and hopefully by now understand no matter how much Mr. Hopwood goes shouting to NR and the DfT, ultimately, FGW have to just deal with the infrastructure they are provided.

Are FGW blameless?  Of course not, but decisions are made with the best of intentions to recover the wider service and karma/mother nature/stuff happens and turns it all on its head.  Maintenance schedules can be followed to the T, but breakdowns can still happen.  With infrastructure issues, we take the hits anyway, because as was pointed out a few posts back the DfT love the situation - they can control the railway, and the TOCs get all the blame.

I personally believe no matter how much Mr. Hopwood and the NR Route Director stand up and say their usual pieces, that there is something very much broken in the NR/TOC relationship, which is no doubt replicated across the National network and ultimately does not provide the service for the passengers that we as front-line staff want and try to provide you everyday.

It's a shame that what was a decent if heated discussion has to be reduced to childish sarcasm by a few.....I may not wholly agree with what you say and lack your knowledge of the intricacies of the railway system however I do at least respect your opinons, and am a fare paying customer so I think I am entitled to mine....

Superguard thankyou for your response which attempts to explain the issues involved....on some issues we agree, on others we will have to agree to differ, I hope we can continue to do so in a civil manner.

....just as we are entitled to ours (of yours), eh?

By all means, they are welcome, even more so if they can be expressed in a manner befitting an adult.

But adults tend to want to understand/learn, rather than rant, surely? :-)

I am ... delighted ... that our forum helps bring together people who are intricately linked in the system of rail travel as they move around by train (on one hand) and provide and operate the systems that allow and made the trains move around (on the other).   Far too often the world of the two groups seem far apart - and indeed, why should a passenger need to know about corroding signal posts, or a conductor need to know about a passenger's requirement to be on time to pick up a child from the childminder?  Perhaps there's no need, but it sure as heck helps us to understand each other, to be helpful and accommodating both ways where we could be needlessly and unintentionally awkward.  Alas, just occasionally frustration on one side or the other leads to a more robust discussion than is immediately useful.

I'm a passenger - or I was.  I got involved in this stuff in the last decade, and the whole of this forum was based on the premise that 2 trains each way a day, pre-dawn and post-dark, with cancellation rated of 30% some weeks, wasn't appropriate for our town - it was hurtful economically in that it made the service useless, and I had a feeling that the service wasn't making money for the operator either. You'll find some robust and critical posts at the time, but the criticisms may have tended to have been of the operations that caused such problems, and not of the systems and politics and other things behind those operations which wasn't equipping them to succeed.

Moving on ... I have learned a lot, so tend to be very much sympathetic and supportive of the rail industry in which most of the staff are excellent, work their hearts out to do a good job, and especially here on this forum are going out of their way and beyond this duties to help the passenger.  Readers may suggest that the rail industry should be providing that customer support rather than leaving it to volunteers here - who deserve our huge thanks even if they bring bad news - but that lack of provision of this sort of forum is a subject for another day.

We have come streets forward since the days that we started - 2007.  Better reliabiity came to the TransWilts within a couple of years, and a more appropriate service, all be it on a trial basis, in late 2013.   People say they're amazed how quick that was, which leaves me open-mouthed in shock, and should act as an alert to other passengers of just how long the updates to infrastructure will take before things truly get better.   Looking forward, there are good indicators that the community is to be more involved into the future - source, our Community Rail Officer designate who had a meeting up in London yesterday.   It won't make for instant change, but it may make for greater community involvement away from the more far-flung and smaller lines which have been traditional Community Rail territory.  But I'm going beyond this thread here.

The 7.08 maidenhead to Paddington has broken down at slough on the fast line. Loss of air pressure to brakes.
Ho hum.

And we're moving again.
TM had announced that the train would need to be emptied via the 1 door still in the platform at slough but fortunately that was avoided.

Oh dear.. Realtime trains shows the train as finally arriving at Paddington 53 minutes late.. Looks like you got relegated to the slow relief line to be on the safe side  ::)

No CIS at Swindon ("Welcome to Swindon. Train information is currently unavailable." on most screens) and fallout damage from the earlier disruption meant good fun for commuters today... ::)

.....welcome to the new week folks!

Due to signalling problems between Swindon and Bath Spa all lines are disrupted.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed or diverted. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

 :'(

..and between Bedwyn and Reading ....

Which means "main line, some variations.   TransWilts - Cancellations"

Between Bedwyn and Reading is just an issue with the axle counters following completion of engineering works which should sort itself out after the first trains have gone through in both directions. 

Perhaps not. JourneyCheck reports
    Due to signalling problems between Reading and Bedwyn trains have to run at reduced speed.
    Impact:
    Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 30 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.
    Last Updated :24/11/2014 07:52

Second Westbury, Trowbridge, Melksham to Swindon cancelled too now - first train (perhaps?) the 09:48 from Westbury.  Occasional problems - understood, but ... this post feels like a well work record  :-[

Now this, frankly bizarre, note on Journeycheck regarding the first southbound service.  (My highlighting)

Yes. I called in the cavalry in the end (significant other) and went to Bradford. Not exaggeration to say it was freezing. Three minute calls to India did not really help matters.

Delays to services between Newbury and Reading Due to signalling problems between Newbury and Reading trains have to run at reduced speed on some Reading bound lines.

Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 25 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.


..............sounds familiar?  :(

We can start the December thread on Monday.......

Oh you Cynic and stop reading my mind :)

Due to signalling problems between Ealing Broadway and West Drayton the Reading bound relief line will be blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 30 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

.........a lot of cancellations/short formations due to train faults too

.........looks like a miserable journey home (yet again)  :(


...........I would suggest getting the December thread set up now......together with January, February, March etc etc

(By the way it's being so cheerful that keeps me going!!!)  ;D

Can we remember to record whose ownership each fault lies with when pisting them here?

I reckon its close to a 90/10% split in favour of Network Rail (NR), but to be sure we need to record the ownership

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Officer Crabtree is alive and well.  ;D

The information on fault ownership is available via links from the First Great Western website. One doesn't need to guess a percentage split or record it here. There's also a daily list of main disruption reasons covering the previous three days.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Our-business/Performance
http://www.firstgroup.com/uktrain/kpi/gw/recent-performance.php (recent)
http://www.firstgroup.com/uktrain/kpi/gw/ (daily)

In the past 12 months delay minute responsibility has been:

63.47% Network Rail
24.43% First Great Western
12.11% Other TOCs

In the past 12 months full cancellation responsibility has been:

67.68% Network Rail
27.82% First Great Western
4.5% Other TOCs

Somewhat shy of a 90/10% split.

Clicking on the middle link on an iphone, the web page is blank

I don't use Apple products so can't suggest a workaround. However, the figures from that middle link on delay attribution are the ones I reproduced in my previous post.

I've never seen the delay minutes before, I knew Network Rail were useless but not to the tune of 855,228 delay minutes over the last 12 months.  That's disgusting. 

I presume that that figure is in train delay minutes and not passenger delay minutes? What figure would you get if you multiplied the figure by the number of passengers affected?
It would probably account for >1% of GDP!!  ??? :P

Really interesting figures - thanks BNM.

So whilst Network Rail (NR) "cause" the majority of delays/cancellation, it's by a ratio of roughly 2:1 compared to FGW/Other TOCs.

Judging by the expert comment on here most of the time, I had got the impression that it was more like 10:1

The cost to the economy overall if you extrapolate these delays/cancellations must be phenomenal.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

I assume these are the standard internal attributions of delay minutes, so Network Rail (NR) carry the can for all those external causes that can be excluded from compensation. So that includes severe weather, external fires, fatalities, trespass, trees on the line, etc. etc. '

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

It's a lovely Adobe flash application. Which, unfortunately, is not supported on any Apple devices.

Fatalities, no.  It depends on the circumstances and location as to who picks up the delay minutes.


It would be interesting to know if they could pinpoint those delay minutes to a certain geographical area ie. the amount of NR & FGW delay minutes on the stretch between Paddington to Reading.
As for the figures, nationally Network Rail account for 62% of all delay minutes.  http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/
Some more interesting figures provided by Network Rail especially if you download the sub-operator performance which breaks down punctuality between High Speed, LTV and West.

From the Oxford Times (http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/11622916.Rail_company_offers_refund_after_delays/):

So it does: in the delay Attribution Guide the distinction is whether the incident is recorded as happening on the track (even in a station) or on a platform. I'd guess most are on the track so NR's. 

There's another breakdown: the ORR's - which is not terribly helpful. For FGW, 2013-2014, this gives:

External	111736.5
Network Management / Other	225431
Non-Track Assets	237929.9
Severe Weather, Autumn, & Structures	212239.1
Track	62042.3
NR-on-TOC Total	849378.9
TOC-on-Self Total	334010.9
TOC-on-TOC Total	142066.2
First Great Western Total	1325456

Of course that's only delay minutes - up to 30 minutes late maximum, I think. Over that it counts under "cancelled and significantly late". There are ORR figures for that, but I can't make a lot of sense of them. For FGW, in quarters, it did go up to 4.6% in 2014Q1, but was higher on several previous occasions - including 4.8% in 2012Q4, 7.0% in 2002Q4, and 8.8% in 2000Q4. Of course East Coast was much worse at those last two times - like 15.6% and 25.6%. Ah, the good old days ...

I think all this has been brought sharply into focus by the recent dramatic deterioration in performance, attributable to both NR & FGW, it would be interesting to know (other than the odd grunt cutting through a cable) if any proper analysis has taken place to establish exactly why this is happening, and hence the title of this thread, to which December will shortly have to be added if current "form" is maintained!  :)

I'm sure FGW have done this internally & probably talking to Network Rail (NR) constantly

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

I use this site to check the performance of the services I normally use.  Sometimes very depressing reading  :P
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/

I fear it's worse than that. I am sure Network Rail (NR) have devoted a great amount of engineering management and planning effort to the parallel signalling/electrification/other works programmes, specifically to ensure this kind of self-inflicted damage does not happen. But it does. So there must be something wrong with the linkage between knowing what and how to do it and actually doing it that way. Or - which is not quite the same - writing your plan on the assumption something can be done this way, when in reality (at night at trackside in too little time and without the right staff) it can't.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Here is a (very bad) example of services I use (tried to post the actual table but couldn't work it out :P ):
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Plymouth+%28PLY%29&To=Paddington+%28PAD%29&TimTyp=A&TimDay=8a&Days=Wk&TimPer=4w&dtFr=29%2F10%2F2014&dtTo=26%2F11%2F2014&ShwTim=AvAr&ShwAdv=ShwAdv&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=8

Here's some expert comment for you:

A passenger has a medical emergency on board.  Ambulance is called, train is delayed along with several behind and onward knock on effects, while connections are held.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

A disabled passenger takes time to board a FGW train.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

A disabled passenger takes time to board a XC Voyager after being booked by XC in the middle of a busy coach.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW as it's their station, although XC may take a share.  Those minutes add up quickly if the delay happens at Plymouth and the train is bound for Aberdeen.

A High Speed Train (HST) arrives and departs on-time.  However a passenger who overslept suddenly attempts to get off by pulling a pass-com.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

A High Speed Train (HST) starts to depart and a late passenger runs onto the platform and pulls a door "on-the-catch".  Train is stopped.  Door secured, needs re-dispatching etc.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

Exeter Chiefs are playing rugby at home.  Digby & Sowton Station has a sectional appendix requirement that states no train longer than 4 carriages may stop.  FGW put on 4 carriage trains all day and run the maximum number of trains that NR allow.  Delays still occur because moving thousands of fans will do that.  Root cause = Rugby match/passengers overcrowding.  Delay blame = FGW.

A group of drunk and unruly passengers assault a Train Manager.  Train is delayed (or perhaps cancelled) for police attendance at the next station.  Root cause = drunk passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

Before anyone jumps on me about assisted passengers etc, i'm not for one minute suggesting we throw them on at the nearest door, so not to delay trains.  These things take as long as they take.

However, i'm merely pointing out that FGW delay minutes are not black and white.  Of course broken down trains and staff issues (which are unacceptable) will add up in these figures, but the delays can also be caused by our beloved passengers/customers themselves.

Oh, and also the reason you sit here reading the "expert comment" thinking that it's 10-1 in favour of NR, is because most of the talk and problems in the LTV area are to do with infrastructure signalling problems - which of course is NR.  No-one is suggesting FGW are blameless.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

I imagine that the staff on the ground know exactly what needs to be done.  But what they know needs to be done and what someone sitting in an ivory tower with a balance sheet on his/her computer screen eventually tells them to do are two very different things!

I'm totally in agreement that a lot of attributions are pretty crude and with immediacy, the passengers may be to blame.  However, isn't it up to the train operator, the infrastructure company, and the regulation and ministry folks to provide infrastructure in which these passenger causes are minimised?

Taking your door dispatch example, if First Great Western (FGW) at one of the High Speed Train (HST) refurbs had fitted automatic plug doors as Chiltern have done on Mark 3 carriages, they would have eliminated the possibility of a late passenger unsecuring a door. So in reality, perhaps the root cause is a mixture of FGW and the passenger ...

A further example is perhaps when you might say that weather is the root cause .... only the case of the engineering isn't up to working in that poor weather, but it may not be worth spending millions on a once-in-40-years scenario.


Now that looks very heartfelt!   I'm guessing that FGW will be glad to have been rid of responsibility for BRI and RDG then?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Of course, but then FGW would be expecting to shift most of their overcrowding delay minutes on the DfT, "well we'd run more trains and reduce overcrowding delays if you let us have the rolling stock" and of course that isn't going to happen  ;)


Now that looks very heartfelt!   I'm guessing that FGW will be glad to have been rid of responsibility for BRI and RDG then?
[/quote]

If the assistance staff are still FGW (I don't know if they are), then perhaps it's still FGW delay cost.

I was just trying to get the point across, that just because FGW get hit with a delay cost, doesn't necessarily mean it's because the company/staff are lazy/incompetent etc and in some cases is not actually FGW's fault at all, but the TOC still takes the "blame".

Indeed, same goes with Network Rail (NR).

Suicide....delay minutes to Network Rail (NR). Passenger 'fault'

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Peering closely at the book of runes, there are no "Station Operator Codes", only "Station Operating Codes", of which it says:

While some of the causes listed don't involve a train, obviously there must be one (and its operator) for there to be a delay.

Maybe apocryphal (although I'm sure I heard it mentioned in a TV documentary about the railways), small bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays a train after being hit - delay attribution to the TOC. Pheasant or larger bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays... - delay attribution to Network Rail.

Don't be silly - it's much more complicated than that! There's a flowchart. Its introduction says:

I don't think the flowchart would reproduce easily - it's on P 34 here (http://www.delayattributionboard.co.uk/documents/dag_pdac/Delay%20Attribution%20Guide%20-%20April%202014%20Edition.pdf).

My jaw has just hit the floor reading the document (or at least parts of it) referred to by stuving.  It's publication on 1st April may lead one to suppose a spoof: if it is it's the most intensive and demanding joke ever.  However, I fear its reality just re-enforces the impression that the lawyers have a very happy playground in this area.

I saw the self same programe you are right BNM

Yes, it does seem to have grown into as bit of a monster, doesn't it?

But if you did have a single railway business, I'm pretty sure you'd have a quite detailed system for recording the causes of delays, and counting them, according to who was responsible. For one thing the statistics might be demanded of you by, for example, politicians. Or your internal departmental accounts might involve budget transfers. And just because it is internal, that doesn't prevent squabbling over whose fault it was. An then there's trying to claim compensation from outside bodies, or at least providing a well-documented excuse for press briefings.

I find it hard to believe such a baroque system would result, but it might be a lot closer than you'd think at first.

I think it was the very well produced BBC documentary that ran for a few weeks featuring a large variety of the network.

Agreed, any business that has to pay out a large amount of money in "fines" or has the ability to claim such money as compensation is of course going to invest time/money and want as detailed a system as possible of deciding "fault".

I'm sure insurance companies have even larger documents!

I've just found it it's called  The Railway keeping Britain on track  four part broadcast on BBC Two in  2013.

And your starter for today:

Delays to services between Ealing Broadway and West Drayton
Following a problem currently under investigation between Ealing Broadway and West Drayton the Reading bound relief line has now reopened.

Thanks for posting that link, stuving.  :)

I've taken the liberty of extracting that particular page from the document and uploading it as an image, in the hope that this will help those readers of the Coffee Shop forum whose various gadgetry does not allow them to read such linked items easily:

(http://i.imgur.com/zWkoieL.jpg?1)

Brilliant! Was it devised by Monty Python?  ;D

........well it's finally happened! After 2 months I have received my letter from FGW apologising for the crap service and offering a refund in respect of 6th October!

I am so happy I am smiling despite this morning's signal failures and non-service out of Paddington!!!

 ;D ;D ;D

.....does someone want to add "December" to the title of the thread?


Due to signalling problems between Slough and Langley the Reading bound relief line is blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 20 mins. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Looks like its one of those days today.  :-[

Hmm. That'll be me, then.  ::)

Done.  ;D

Another example of significant disruption lasting far longer and having more of an impact that it should have due to FGW's continuing shoddy management of major disruption.  The usual story, Control in Swindon swamped by enquiries, very few local operation staff on the ground capable of making decisions, some large stations left with no staff overseeing the train crew at all locally (e.g. Oxford) as is always the case at weekends.

This was touched on briefly in the documentary episode on Thursday night:


That was during Dawlish. I'm guessing from your comment nothing has really changed?

Shambles. Ruined a party we had organised for a load of children yesterday coming from various directions  - few or no FGW staff available to help, no/confused communication, loads of cancellations, those  trains that did run packed to the rafters, little or no alternative provision arranged............then again, should we be surprised?

I've been sent a Network rail picture of the broken cable but don't know how to post it here.

It looks a real mess! Having obviously been repaired with lots of gaffer tape.



Edit note: Image now attached -

(http://i.imgur.com/FUZ4evD.jpg)

CfN Ranks for adding picture, as they say a pictures worth a thousand words.

I got caught up the 'fiasco' on Saturday (06 December 2014).  My Up train from the far South-West got terminated short at Reading, 300+ passengers told to disembark from train (stood at Platform No.15) and told to go Platform No.13 for next train to London in 4 minutes time.  Cue 300+ passengers going up escalator over transfer deck onto down escalator to Platform No.13.  After two minutes further announcement that next train to London would be from Platform No.14.  Cue 400+ passengers (300+ from cancelled train plus those already on platform) surging back up escalator over transfer deck and back down escalator to Platform No.14.  I remained on Platform No.15 all this time as I sort of guessed that the next Up London train would come into a nominally Up direction platform rather than a nominally Down direction platform.  I got a seat but probably a significant number of passengers didn't.  At least 20+ stood in the coach I was in (coach L) when we left ::) :P

After we left Reading there was only a single apology about the overcrowded train and the delay into our arrival into Paddington.  This was after an already extended (and diverted) 4 hour trip from the far South-West. :( >:(

Going home in the early evening the service had still not fully sorted itself out but we did manage to arrive home just 3 minutes late :o

No problem, eightf48544: if you'd like to forward it to me, I'll do the necessary on your behalf. My e-mail address is in my profile.  ;)

With my thanks to eightf48544 for his e-mail, I've now added his image to his previous post above.  :)

And for this morning... "some lines closed" between Paddington and slough due to signalling problems.

Yawn.

And we've stopped.

Relief line to London bound at Acton is shut.

Double yawn.

Hold it together with Gaffer tape and hope for the best - the picture is a metaphor for the whole system.....

Delays of about an hour from Reading to Paddington. I've been on this service for 65 minutes now and am stationary at Heathrow junction

Happy Monday everybody! Looks like we need some more tape!

Due to signalling problems between London Paddington and Slough some lines are closed.
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed by up to 60 mins or revised. Disruption is expected until 15:00 08/12.

.........it was 1100, now it's 1500.........rush hour should be fun >:(

Definitely fun and games this morning. Firstly my train (7.59 from Maidenhead to Paddington) was unexpectedly in reverse formation (I am assuming this magically happened in between Tilehurst and Maidenhead) which resulted in anyone trying to use First Class having to run the length of the platform only to find First Class (2 1/2 carriages of it) was already full!!  >:(

Having shoe horned as many people as possible on to this train with no mention of any delays we set off.. We only made it as far as just west of Slough before we stopped and then were told to expect an hours delay (which turned out to be pretty accurate).

If they had told us about the hour delays at Maidenhead I (and I am sure many others who could) would have given up and gone home to work from there, making the train less overcrowded and pleasant for those who really had to get into London

Yet again FGW's communication was sadly lacking

Yet again, network rail signalling fails, this is not the fault of FGW but it seems  that they could have responded better regarding information.
These breakdowns are no longer rare or exceptional events but are becoming the "new normal".

When the sums were done regarding the benefits of electrification, did anyone consider the costs of these frequent major breakdowns ?
Suppose that the new electric railway lasts for say 25 years before major renewals are needed. Then consider 5 years of frequent major disruptions whilst the work is done.
I suspect that the millions of delay minutes caused by the works might NEVER be offset by increased reliability when the work is completed. I.E. that the 30 year total of delays (5 years of disruption followed by 25 years of normal operation) might be greater than simply carrying on with diesel power.
Add to that the fact that the electrification works are bound to take much longer and to cost much more than forecast, and that electrification adds something else to fail.

Indeed, expect the wires to come down....

I don't think that there's much choice frankly, diesel trains are on their way out. ERTMS in cab) signalling may help....

Needs putting down to the under-investment over decades & several Governments.

If they hadn't decided to electify, they'd have still needed to raise the bridges to accommodate the filtration equipment on stage IIIB-complaint diesel trains.

On the subject of electric trains, this rather interesting post in connection with a discussion about this morning's problems has just appeared on the WNXX forum:

http://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3979&start=400#p98044 (http://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3979&start=400#p98044)


Looks like NR has considered that today's fault was being caused by HEx or HC trains?

HEX are better IMO at saying it how it is. Taking a look at their Twitter feed their service has been on and off all morning at Network Rail's request. But the bigger eye-opener does seem to be, as you pointed out, is that can the signalling system handle electric traction?

I was under the impression there was works being carried out to prevent problems like this? Did they miss Acton?  ;D

There's been a lot of work which is ongoing at improving the resilience of the overhead cables in certain areas between Paddington and Heathrow to prepare it for much frequent traffic rather than just the six trains each way per hour it currently gets.  Acton is one area that is undergoing a lot of work (as well as lots of ongoing work building the new fly-under), so perhaps there was work last night that went wrong and has caused the problems today?

All I can find out is that a power failure was reported in the area at 05:22 this morning.

Disruption is expected to last until at least 4pm according to journeycheck.. I am starting to guess what the journey home is going to be like...

The only positive I can take from this is that I'll be working so late this evening in order to make up the time I lost coming in that there's a better chance of a clear run.

Last week was pretty poor, with repeated morning delays of 10 mins between Reading and Paddington, mainly centred around Southall.
Saturday was torrid.
This morning was just horrendous.

Quite possibly no fasts to Maidenhead (MAI) or Twyford (TWY) with only a half-hourly stopping service of 5-car (if we're lucky) Turbos? Hopefully it won't be the case, at the moment on RTT it looks like there are no major delays east of RDG (only a few mins here and there) but the overall service is reduced by about 50% with the Reliefs still closed east of Southall.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Network Rail tweeted earlier...

Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed by up to 45 mins or revised. Disruption is expected until 23:30 08/12.

Working late may not save you.........just been changed to 2330!!!  >:(

https://twitter.com/FGW/status/541954093263372288

I am leaving work early in the hope I beat the madness.. Watch this space :-)

Rather ironic that I renewed my season ticket yesterday and got an "extra" day added in respect of the void day on 6th October...........looks like I will have another one to add next time........"please check before travel"......outstanding advice.

What more can they say?....looks as though Journeycheck is carrying amends to beyond 1600 - so at least 2 hours forward. Makes sense to me....

At least they've raised all ticket restrictions for the rest of the day, so no peak restrictions this evening.

Do network rail ever publish any detail on incidents like this?
If I could get my head around some information on what takes engineering 18+ hours to fix then I might be more understanding.

I would imagine anyone counting on FGW to get them home for Christmas in a couple of weeks is doing so with extreme trepidation......imagine if this happens on Dec 23rd/Christmas Eve?

It's actually rather easy to imagine this happening just before Christmas!!  ;D

In a way, it might be worth it happening just so that Network Rail (NR) get severely bad press & likely hauled in front of the Transport Committee to answer a few obvious Questions (Qs) that they are refusing to publicise. And hopefully lead to removal of NR bonuses for 2014.


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

FGW are saying that the disruption was caused by Data Cables not working correctly at Hanwell, west of Paddington.
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/travel-updates/first-great-western-apology (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/travel-updates/first-great-western-apology)

Not sure how a cable doesn't work correctly unless they have been damaged.

..............you mean NR and FGW get bonuses? What on Earth for?

All ticket restrictions lifted out of Paddington tonight.

Posted earlier.

That letter from Mark Hopwood makes it sound as though it's in the past - has it been fixed then?

Normal working given at 14:50.

18.18 and 19.48 via Maidenhead cancelled.  So that puts 500+ extra people on the 19.05 3 carriage to Henley.  Good work.    :'(

High Speed Train's (HST)s can stop at Maidenhead right? Surely it would be beneficial for one to call there. the 17:45 to Swansea is taking the load for Twyford. 

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

Well I was quite lucky, bailed out early and was only 15 mins late - judging by Reading the stoppers are running OK but a lot of the fast trains are SNAFU'd........good luck all getting home tonight!

The 1706 fast to TWY was cancelled. I went to P1 to see if the 1703 to PNZ would stop there, as often happens when the 1706 is cancelled, so I asked an FGW dispatcher who proudly showed me the Special Stop Order. Yet the TM was adamant in her PA announcement that it wouldn't stop there. Why the disparity?

So for me it was the jammed 1712 with only 2 coaches, and apparently the following 1735 was also only 2-car.  >:(

1706 PAD - BRI is indeed cancelled throughout... I'm waiting for it at Trowbridge ::)

Just about serves me right really :P

I left work at 4 as I couldn't face a repeat of this morning.. I got the 4.42 which actually wasn't too full though stopped everywhere.. I did wonder why they didn't stop the odd HST at Maidenhead.. Incidentally I was actually aiming for the 16.49 to Slough to change there but that was cancelled which was a shame as it only had to get from the depot (old oak common) to Paddington and then head off to Oxford and would have helped a lot..

Anyway I added it up.. Today I covered 60 miles in 5 hours which includes getting to and from the station at both ends btw - but still pretty impressive huh? And I only managed to be in the office for 5  1/2 hours thanks to this.. So some time to make up

Ha ha I just realised I spent pretty much the same time travelling as working today..  Now how different would that be had FGW put Wi fi in when other train operators did...

Yes, maidenhead can take High Speed Train's (HST)s happily, and I fully agree with your comment. The 18.18 is a 6 car turbo that is always rammed and is 95% maidenhead passengers as it is the only direct service >3 carriages within a 2hr window. If it is cancelled then it has massive implications for Maidenhead passengers

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

So... now we can all begin to wonder how tomorrow will be (I'm not hopeful)..

And also should the title of this thread be changed to remove months and just go for years (and obviously add 2015).. Sorry.. just being cynical but it's been a very long day in FGW land... again.. ::) ::)

I refer readers to post #264 on this topic: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14689.msg164707#msg164707  ::) :o ;D

Definitely not a pessimist anymore if it were to be renamed... Just a realist  ::) ::)

Bowing to member opinion, I have now accepted the apparently inevitable, and renamed this topic yet again.

Happy now?   ;) :D ;D

I have read the comments in this thread with increasing wonderment and sympathy for all of you who have had to put up with this appalling service for so long with no end in sight.  Usually I am one of the first to leap to the defence of the rail industry, but it seems that this is now beyond what is at all acceptable.  I am sure no individuals set out to cause havoc, but Network Rail has some serious questions to answer about their management of a major infrastructure renewal while managing an asset (can that be the right word here?!) that has been grossly neglected until comparatively recently.  FGW still don't seem to have sorted out the communication issues.

I am fortunate in not being caught up in all of this but am saddened what is happening and feel the frustration of those of you who for months have daily wondered if you can just get to work and home again.

Additional trains!


I'm scratching my head as to why additional public services are running.

I think it's because Heathrow Connect/Express are cancelled/reduced so a link to Hayes gives people an option to get the bus to the airport?

FGW reporting signal failure this morning at Theale with nothing running between NBY and RDG, but also seeing Twitter reports that the 0609 NBY-PAD is stuck at Midgham due to a level crossing failure?

From FGW Journey Check:

Due to signalling problems between Reading and Newbury all lines are closed.

...............another day, another SNAFU.

There was a stationary, and empty, train sitting at Tilehurst in platform 3 this morning, with its lights configured to be heading to Reading, rather from Reading as usual on platform 3. No idea what that was all about (broken down maybe ?).

Considered writing this in the Rights and Redress section but given this is where all the dealys are occurring....

So Thames Valley is operating below the standard for a 5% (woo!) discount to ticket renewals.  No news there, but are there any further compensation thresholds?  if it dips further does that increase to 10%? 

As a follow up, if there are no additional conpensation thresholds then what is the motivation for NR/FGW to improve services once the 5% is already triggered?

I understand the reason Heathrow Connect services have been withdrawn is because it seems electric trains on the relief lines are affecting the signalling system.

I think the problem on the Berks & Hants was mainly solved shortly before 8am. There were plans to divert the 07:06 to Paignton via Bristol but these were cancelled. A service from the west was diverted and passed through Swindon non stop around 08:30.

Is/was that restricted to the relief lines ? I had a cleanish run through apart from a minor slowdown through Hayes.

Lots of disgruntled people on P1 at Reading this morning with the Newbury services all cancelled.

When I first started to commute regularly in 2008 the first couple of renewals I had were 10% discounts - so I assume there is a 10% threshold somewhere, unless that was extra discount for something else!

There's a 5% discount for reliability too - the number of timetabled trains that don't run. Currently heading that way with the cancellation of Connect trains (I believe Connect features within FGW stats?)

So a max of 10% available if both stats fail the charter mark.

But no, there's no 10% for either available if it goes on getting worse - but obviously likely to stay below the trigger for longer the lower it gets.

How do the triggers work historically for annual renewals ? If the service were to be exemplary from Jan-May and I renew in June, would I see any discount pending for the last few months, which have been particularly awful ?

It's done on a Moving Annual Average basis for both punctuality and reliability to ensure fairness for annual ticket holders.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Our-business/Performance

Currently the reliability is still a reasonable level above the trigger on most routes.

Due to emergency engineering works between London Paddington and Ealing Broadway some lines are closed.

Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled or delayed. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

I'm so happy.

A new signal was put up at the London End of Tilehurst platform 3 at one of the previous stages of the Reading remodelling to allow reversal there.  If, for example, the direct line from Reading to Reading West (station) is shut, then trains can be sent to Tilehurst to reverse, and then use the Reading West curve.

[hostage to fortune...]It'll all be wonderful come Easter 2015.  There's a mahoosive chunk of work going live then - effectively the final part of the resignalling the whole way from Paddington to Didcot.  Watch this space...

Yep, last of the High Speed Train (HST) dioversions via Banbury & into Waterloo....

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

(http://i.imgur.com/U2RQ7Of.png)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-30392928


My emphasis ...

Very reassuring! But at least it's getting some publicity in Parliament (.......thought they'd all be on their Christmas hols by now!!!)

I liked the use of the stock photograph from during the Reading platform remodelling works where there was almost no standing room on those either :)

This afternoon's cause of delays in the Thames Valley?

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/10849795_10154865887200459_2864908106136373281_n_zps47615b44.jpg)

 ::) :P ;D

(Picture courtesy of forum member Ollie, via Facebook)

You couldn't make it up. 'Move along now please'.

Wrong sort of pigeon.

There is now this apology on the FGW site.

Now, is that datalink issue the one caused by traction current? I can imagine that, if something that did work suddenly starts to suffer from  interference, finding it could be difficult. The cost of good EMC* is taking great pains everywhere with screening and earthing, and it would only need a concealed short-circuit at one point between two earths to undo it.

Which is not any kind of excuse. And of course there's still today to apologise for.

*EMC=electromagnetic compatibility

There is some good banter on this subject over at the "http://www.wnxxforum.co.uk" website, which has a lot of railway professionals on board.
Some of the stuff is so technical that even they don't know what is going on. :(
The consensus of opinion seems to be that all the signalling on the eastern bit of the GWML should be ripped out and shredded!.

WE

I assume this is the section that was resignalled by Railtrack in the mid 1990's for Heathrow Express. Has it really worn out in less than 20 years?

The issue with the Eastern end of the GWML, the old Slough IECC area, it uses SSI (Solid State Interlocking) whilst it was not a very early version of this I feel there may have been some corners cut at the time with the install also as electronics go 20 year makes it geriatric.

The Thameslink signalling development team are also developing an ETRMS / ECTS system for the GWML principally for Crossrail operation which could see the introduction of ATO (Automatic Train Operation) .............the Drivers can then say look mum no hands  ;D

Well its been all clear on journeycheck for 2 days now but I can't help feeling something is still busted. All of my HSTs leaving London have taken 10mins longer to maidenhead, pausing around hayes, and today the 7.16 inbound took 40mins.

Have fgw just suppressed the data for the TV ?!?!  ::)

............maybe that's regarded as normal service now, not worthy of highlighting?  :-\

You may be interested in http://recenttraintimes.co.uk/ which sets all these figures out in black and white. Or, more often, red.

Maidenhead to Paddington's most punctual fast train in the peaks appears to be the 07:59 with a 90% chance of a 5 minute or less delay at Paddington.  Some others are very poor though - the 08:35, too late for most commuters, but still a busy train is at only 43%!

Coming back the 17:35 has a 100% record which is pretty impressive.  Less impressive is the 45% recorded by the semi-fast 17:42 train.

Data based on the last three months.  A very useful website, but it's a shame longer time periods can't be analysed, as whilst three months sounds quite a long time, it is in fact only 60 or so occurrences of a given train of course.

What an excellent link, thanks for posting.
Paddington to Reading evening peak for the past 7 days is as red as I'd expect!

And the earlier train I catch twice a week from Maidenhead has just 33% for the arriving in time for the past 100 days! I keep saying its always late, now I have proof :) (Its ALWAYS held up due to some poxy freight train. Maybe one day they will change the timetable to reflect the real time it actually runs at....

The 08.35 is one I catch often, and it has never been on time. It stops in the country platforms , sometimes coupling up with another Turbo Unit in front, and sometimes its 'doors to manual' with one open per carriage !
I have just written complaint letter #1 to FGW  ;D

I agree that the 7.59 appears to be the most punctual.. The train almost always gets to Paddington on time. However those stats don't show that not always all the passengers get there on time even if the train does.. If the HST that forms this set has an issue then it gets replaced with a class-180.. So probably 3/8 of the passengers are then delayed..

Delays to services between Swindon and Didcot Parkway
Due to over-running engineering works between Swindon and Didcot Parkway all lines will be blocked.
Impact:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 30 mins. Disruption is expected until 13:00 21/12.


Good luck to anyone heading home by train for Christmas - not a very good start today!  :(

So far, fingers crossed, looking at the departure times from Swindon things don't look too bad.  Single line working has been introduced with trains from London using the Up line for the section between Uffington and the outskirts of Swindon.

I totally understand that signalling /track problems are outside of the TOCs control but the last few months - in my opinion - are hardly a good incentive to travel by rail in our area.

Personally I despair every time I see "delays between XXX and YYY causing delays of up to..."

Is it me or has there always been a concentrated run of delays of this nature? Judging by the title of this thread it's been going on file a while but surely these cant be a knock on effect from the October 6th issue :)

(In the above example XXX and YYY are not real station codes before anyone notices :) )

This morning's issues would more accurately be described as track problems.  They are struggling to fit a new/replacement point.

Thanks for clarifying bobm. I sincerely hope travellers plans are not disrupted by this.  I would suggest that most members this forum are used to these delays but the occasional traveller may not be so understanding of individual problems

The heaviest delay I can spot is 12 minutes on the 08:37 PAD-SWA, so as 'bobm' said earlier this isn't causing any real problems.  Bi-directional signalling helps enourmously as such times, and it's good to see that such signalling flexibility is slowly being expanded on the network.

If that's the limit of delays like you say that's not too bad and I totally agree about bi-directional running.i know someone that is coming up from Cardiff to Reading this morning so hopefully they won't be delayed too much if at all. I'm not sure what service they are on otherwise I would have a look out of curiosity

Unless of course you're travelling to Cheltenham, as virtually every service seems to be cancelled due to "a member of staff being unavailable" - Christmas parties?

I think the problem in the morning was no one to take the HST stock from Bristol to Swindon to provide a set for the run to Cheltenham and thence to London.  That therefore meant three cancellations.

In the afternoon the problems weren't helped by the unit booked to work the service in between the cancelled Paddington services running with the sole toilet locked out of use.

There was over-running Engineering work twixt Didcot & Swindon till 1300, according to Journeycheck

I guess the question must be then why was no-one available to take the stock from Bristol to Swindon?

Signal problems again this morning it seems - Bristol TM & Westbury/Pewsey......cancellations over the next couple of days are likely to cause real problems with trains already overcrowded for Christmas.

Again though, I'm struggling to find much real disruption from either issue - one early PAD-BRI cancelled and its return at 09:30 and a couple of trains in the Westbury area about 10 minutes late.  I'm sure if disruption of that magnitude is all we get this Christmas then staff and customers will be pretty pleased.

I think it was Graham that pointed out with modern information systems like journeycheck to refer to it can look like the network is always in turmoil when the reality is that a tiny percentage of passengers are actually being disrupted and without that information the rest would not realise anything was wrong.

In my opinion (and yes, I know I have said this before) these automated systems can be both a benefit and a pain in the proverbial - let me give you an example.

When I am travelling by train as soon as I can I check the app on my mobile (we are often talking 530 am here). If there have been overrunning engineering works then up until the last minute the services will show on time. However because the back end systems work on the principle a service is on time unless it is reported late (what else can it do!) local services in my part of the world (B&H line) will show as on-time until their due departure date has passed.  As has been discussed previously the systems seem to have difficulty coping when services are delayed/cancelled/reinstated following interruption of service

On balance though they are an invaluable aid when planning my journey so I accept the limitations

Due to signalling problems between London Paddington and Slough some lines are blocked.

Impact: Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled, delayed by up to 30 mins or revised. An estimate for the resumption of normal services will be provided as soon as the problem has been fully assessed.

Customer Advice:
Owing to signalling problems affecting a couple of running lines in the Southall area, we are unable to operate the full timetabled service to and from London Paddington at present. There will be a reduction in the frequency of train services (in both directions) between London Paddington and Reading / Oxford. Any other train service cancellations or alterations will be advised on an individual basis.


..............Merry Christmas everyone!  :(

Thankfully things are pretty much back to normal in time for the post-work London exodus!  At least this time you highlighted delays that were of some significance I suppose, rather than jumping on anything listed on journeycheck.

It's disappointing to see further signalling problems on the route into Paddington, even if disruption was contained to only a couple of hours this time and the majority of the long distance trains made their way through eventually.

...........I guess it's an indication of what is now "normal service" when I am criticised for pointing out a situation that caused the cancellation of a number of services to Cheltenham, several to Bristol and delays elsewhere on the network.........you have to see this in the context of a totally unacceptable level of service over the last few months which shows no signs of improving, an isolated incident here and there would not be worthy of comment, it's the relentless failures on a daily basis that all add up.......from now on I will count my blessings, chief amongst which is that I am able to drive home for Christmas!

 Have a good Christmas all, and may all your delays be little ones!  ;)

I refer you to post #494 and hope the many reported road delays don't affect you.  Of course, in reality, reports today of...

A multi-vehicle accident closed two lanes between junction 5 near Otford in Kent and junction 6 near Oxted in Surrey has caused a two lane closure, while a broken-down lorry forced one lane to be closed at the M25^s junction 12 south of Heathrow airport.

In North Yorkshire, the A64 was closed in both directions between the B1249 and the B1248 due to an accident at West Knapton, with drivers advised to take alternate routes.

Those planning a break across the Channel via Kent were delayed by heavy traffic near Folkestone,

...actually affected only a small percentage of those people trying to travel by car, as do the majority of the train incidents listed.  Probably not the 'travel hell' and 'nightmare' for everyone the article the quote above came from tries to portray:

http://metro.co.uk/2014/12/23/travel-hell-for-brits-looking-to-get-away-for-christmas-4997518/ (http://metro.co.uk/2014/12/23/travel-hell-for-brits-looking-to-get-away-for-christmas-4997518/)

If your point is that there are sometimes problems on other forms of transport then it is well made, it doesn't however mitigate against the ongoing poor performance of the railways (NR/FGW) on the Thames Valley and other lines over the last few months which as you may have noticed is the theme of this thread.....I am however grateful for your good wishes  :)

Some of us are working over Christmas to build a better railway ...................

Which can do best when no trains are running a whole 52 hours (and more in some places) to take things to bits and put new stuff in

Let's hope the 'more' isn't an unplanned more due to overruns in too many places this year.

Whether it is unavoidable or not I do not know but this does seem to be normal though whenever major improvements are carried out to a live railway that is running at near full capacity.  Remember the WCML work in the days of Railtrack?

Well on FGW land it you won't be able to blame me ...................... I'm playing with a different part of the train set  ;D

Thankfully, for me at least, I've only had to travel from Thatcham to London twice this December. In the October - November months when I was commuting daily I gave up telling her indoors what tine I expected to be home because until I walked through the door I couldn't rely on anything outside of my control

Here is hoping that the new year will bring a new start

To all of you helping to build a better railway - I thank you for your hard work

I received a 7th void day letter from FGW today. It relates to 8th December I believe.
I welcome FGW's speed in recognising their 3rd world service that week, and for them getting the notification out pre-Christmas.

What is 3rd world service? I remember a friend once recalling his travels in India. One day he expressed surprise that the train he was about to catch (the one train each day) was on time rather than a few hours late.  He was corrected however "No this is yesterday's train". 

So pretty similar to the Thames valley through that week.

I've just received ^140 back on this year's season due to the 7 void days. A real bonus, as only 1 of those days particularly inconvenienced me, but then I recognise that many others would have been much more severely impacted.  (And if you're wondering what the inconvenience was, I had to share a table for 2 in first class with someone for the last 15 minutes of my morning journey into Swindon due to overcrowding. ) ;D

Merry Christmas ET, when you get time to celebrate!

The figures show that the rail service is quieter over holiday periods, although some may say that is because of there being fewer trains. That makes it the best time to carry out major work, and I don't mind not being able to take a train on Boxing Day in exchange for the removal of the mail conveyor at Temple Meads and all the other pre-electrification work being done over Christmas.

Not looking very good this morning with numerous cancellations and many other services delayed or diverted or not serving the whole route.

Looks like a mixture of the expected over running engineering works outside Paddington and signal failures around Southampton.

It's the same every year so I don't suppose anyone is really very surprised.....first Penzance service of the day cancelled, next few (assuming they run) will be hideously overcrowded........first Penzance to Paddington starting from Plymouth too.....due to....yes you've guessed it......"a member of the train crew being unavailable"

Advice for passengers from Reading and west thereof intending to use the first Penzance was to travel to Temple Meads where an additional train will run to Cornwall.

That one will be nice and cosy especially as the next PAD-PLY is also cancelled.

"Additional train".... Likely to only be carrying those transferring from PAD as few others will know its running

probably immaterial now.....latest from Journeycheck.....

Due to over-running engineering works between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington all lines are closed.

0900 to Exeter cancelled, as is 0928 to Penzance - best advice, give up and go home? (unless that's what you're trying to do?)

What a farce.

Looking at the bbc news web site it's not just FGW services being hit by overrunning engineerng works

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30607689 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30607689)

Personally I am not affected by either dispruptions But it doesn't stop me feeing sorry for those who need access to the transport system today

Currently sitting in sloe at pad, having arrived to catch the 1106. Too much luggage to consider going to Marylebone. Nothing in the station.

In that link, it says:


Whilst I agree that the Christmas and New Year period is a wholly excellent time to close some lines to undertake major works on them, I can't help feeling they the "two million a day" average over Christmas and the New Year is to some extent caused by the almost complete absence of trains on 2 of those days.   Kinda pushes the average down.   If we call the Christmas / new year period 10 days (24th Dec to 2nd Jan) and say that trains only run on 8 of them, then would the average over the days they run be 2,000,000 / 0.8 = 2,500,000 passengers.   Is Mr Network Rail being naughty with his use of statistics, or has he already and correctly discounted the 2 shut days?

I'm afraid I've learned to be a cynic over the years - long experience of messages like "fill the existing trains and we'll provide more" which were pretty darned hard to do in the days when there was a choice between the 06:12 and the 18:44.

Journey check is now saying no trains into Paddington until 13.30

And now it's disruption until 6.30pm at least...   Oh well it's not like there are any big sales on that people might want to get to  (not me btw - I don't like shopping!) :) ::)

This though predictable is a very poor performance from network rail (and/or contractors whom they chose to appoint) and whilst I presume that another review or enquiry will be announced, does anyone think that it will be better next time ?

Electrification, new signalling and other preparations for the new shorter trains are expected to take some years so this is unlikely to be a "one off"
And of course events like todays will discourage train travel at holiday times.

I recently met, at a social event, a West country MP who stated that a massive road improvement and road building programme was needed in the West because "the railway always closes at Christmas and Easter, and in bad weather, and you never know in advance if the trains will be running"

Following along on Twitter things still look far from finished.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23PaddingtonTrains&src=hash&mode=photos

I'll be fascinated to see if this warrants a void day. If it was a regular day and no trains ran into Paddington then I'd be confident of it being void, but will fgw just chance it and not declare a void.
IMO the void/no void decision needs to be taken out of the TOC's control and awarded by a regulator.

But that work isn't meant to be finished until the new year.

I see at least one train has been sent out prospecting for a way through the battlefield ...

(from JourneyCheck)
09:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 11:26 This train has been delayed at Slough and has been further delayed at Southall.
This train will be diverted from Reading.
This train will be terminated at Ealing Broadway.
This train will call additionally at Ealing Broadway.
This train will no longer call at London Paddington.
This is due to over-running engineering works. Last Updated :27/12/2014 12:45

(Currently -12:55 - it's at Hanwell.)

Good to see plenty of staff by the 'information' screens in this photo.

https://twitter.com/HUTCHfilms/status/548808702783131648/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/HUTCHfilms/status/548808702783131648/photo/1)

I don't think they offer void days at weekdnds

I've driven into London today but I've just popped into PAD to see what's happening, and breaking news is that a train has just arrived into P8, an High Speed Train (HST) which has disgorged some weary travellers. And now one also arriving into P9. Departure indicators showing 'delayed' departures to PNZ at 1328 and BRI at 1333.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

So after both Kings Cross and Paddington closed due to overrunning engineering work, we await to see on Monday if Network Rail can complete the hat trick and overrun the work at Watford keeping Euston closed.

I got lucky with this today. I turned up at Southend Victoria station and boarded the train about 20 minutes before it was going to leave to head back to West Country. A member of platform staff spotted me and leaned in and asked if I was going back to the West Country. I said that was the plan and he asked me to come and take a look at something. That something was the Sky News Channel from the door of the Mess Room.

Needless to say I left Southend Victoria station pretty rapidly and not by means of a train ::) :D :-X

Network Rail have tweeted that the lines outside of Paddington have been handed back.  

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailPAD/status/548838948790095872
https://twitter.com/NetworkRailPAD/status/548839209327661056

Yes, they'll be ongoing delays for the rest of the day, but at least trains can now get through.

Why not?

Because season tickets are priced / based on a five day [Monday through Friday] use. 

So if we, as season ticket holders, can't travel at weekends due to collective network failure then we have no recompense?
I bet NR still pays FGW for today's delays. A nice little earner for FGW.

Well, at about 13:10 we gave up waiting at Padd'n and went off to Marylebone. Where we caught the 13:36 to Birmingham. And got back to Foregate Street at 16:40.

Its interesting that the "delay map" now quite closely resembles the same picture this time last year when we had extreme weather as an excuse - but all that is responsible this time around is good old fashioned incompetence.

I really hope that some of the FGW devotees on here really understand what it is to try to get from London to Plymouth/Penzance during periods of massive disruption, which seems to be pretty much a weekly (at least) event these days.

In my opinion the extreme weather was a "reasonable cause" rather than "excuse". My in laws (who like us were flooded in 2007) were flooded 6 times in succession in February and March this year. That to me is extreme weather for this country.

Yes, I fully agree that nothing can be done about the whims of nature, that was my point....and your thoughts on today's (entirely man made) events, which have inconvenienced tens of thousands?

Well said. Just made it back to Truro from Gatwick Airport Station and whilst I was not overly delayed, I had to change at Bristol Parkway and Plymouth post-Reading and it was only because the Cross Country Parkway - Plymouth was ten minutes later that I wasn't at least an hour late. Also my seat reservation was lost and all trains in every class were packed after Bristol.

Sick if this routine now, every Christmas holiday period the service is a farce and yet the fares get dearer. By the way, even on the way up (23rd) the air con was broken (freezing cold) and the buffet boiler broken (so no hot drink).

This may be a rambling answer but here goes.

I think one of the problems I have in commenting on delays caused by (for example) overrunning engineering works is that I work in an industry (IT) where project overruns are all too common. The big difference is that in the case of IT projects I work on the delays don't normally have a direct impact on the public.

I would like to see a break down of the delays (and causes of) since October. As has been discussed previously the majority of causes of delays are not down to the TOC concerned but due to infrastructure issues. I would be curious to know, for example, how many of the delays since October can be attributed to a root cause which was that due to the damage caused on October 6th

In my opinion the odd delay caused by signal/points failure (as an example) is to be expected but as you know TG delays seem to be the norm rather than the exception at the present time.

I would like to also understand better the interaction between Network Rail (NR) and the Government (via the transport minister). I would hope there are weekly reviews of performance levels for previous weeks.

Regarding the issues starting up services after Christmas engineering works I think in hindsight it would have been better to have shut down public services for a longer period and then bring them back on stream earlier if circumstances allowed. From a planning perspective I know this is not ideal but it is probably more realistic given the history of restarting segments of the rail network after major engineering works.

Please (anyone) do not read this as a criticism of staff on the ground - I do not believe this is an issue here . There may be many causes of the problems we are facing  but I don't think this is one.

Am I satisfied with the service being offered by the TOCs which rely on NR to provide a service? Definitely not! But probably - like you TG - I have to tolerate the delays and disruption which cause my working day to be stretched at both ends.

Sadly, I don't have the answers to the current delays - if I did I wouldn't be sitting here typing this!

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

I think that Network Rail had a very lucky escape today.

On our way from Marylebone, we came flying past a waiting Virgin West Coast train at South Ruislip (it had to follow us all the way to Leamington Spa). These trains were running hourly from Euston to Birmingham International to avoid the Watford blockade, routed by way of Acton Main Line and the Greenford branch. The one that I saw was a 15-car Voyager.

If the signalling problems in and out of Paddington had knocked these out as well, then I hate to imagine what the media would've made of it all!

Apparently they were not even allowing people to buy tickets at Maidenhead about 1.30pm and weren't letting people up to the platform. Despite the fact that a train did go on from there to Paddington about that time..

My son was there and was told there were "no trains" and even when people started leaving the station from the train that had just stopped  there (and they'd seen on the departures board) one of the members of staff said he'd just been up on the platform and had seen no train..

Marvellous.. You couldn't make that up  ::)

I imagine the train that did run (the first I think) may have been full and standing and all the rest but why the information couldn't have been factual rather than make believe I can't quite work out

One of the best pieces of advice to give to anyone is this: - never travel by rail over the Christmas period!

My family live near Heathfield in East Sussex, and I am at present based in Truro. I have the option of driving (no thanks) the train or flying to/from Newquay. I believe in the train as the best environmental option - and preferable to driving -  and in an ideal world, we should not be flying anyone from Cornwall to London.

But this is the second year running that my Christmas holiday trip has fallen foul of delayed and cancelled trains, and I've had enough. As I stood freezing cold on Bristol Parkway Station waiting for a (fortunately) late and crowded Cross Country service to Plymouth (not Truro) I knew that the Flybe plane had already landed in Newquay.

NickB - if you are paying for weekday travel by buying your season ticket & are offered travel for free on weekends, how can you be compensated for something that is free.

Alternatively, you might request a season based on 7day travel, and you might get compensated - but the cost of that ticket if it were available, would be dearer to start with

I know which version I'll be buying.

Anyone know what tomorrow is likely to bring ? I thought that the overrunning engineering work was now done and the line handed back to the TOC.
Whilst one would expect some knock on delays, it now appears that most services are cancelled until late evening.

My understanding is that season tickets are priced based on five days in seven of travel by the typical full time worker, as that's the typical number of journeys that the rail industry expects them to make.  Careful study of a lot of pages makes no reference to the weekend travel being "free" in any way - and I think it's more because the majority of people work a Monday through Friday week that comparisons are made in relation to peak journeys on those days, and void days are declared for those days because that's when most are using their seasons.

You have a fair point on 7 day compensation, though, Chris ... void days / compensation has to be paid from somewhere.  FGW gets the money from Network Rail (if it's their fault) who get the money in line access changes from FGW who get the money (in fares) from the passengers.   There's going to be some leakage along the way from this financial merrygoround, but I suspect that shareholders and directors are but little streams off this big river flowing. The sad thing is just how much of the river must leak into the bedrock of administration that it flows over.

or National Express ...  also an option ;D ? ... local buses to Brighton then change at Heathrow.  Coach time 8 hours 30 minutes - not sure if I would trust the 5 minute connection that Traveline gave me, though!

I pay a year in advance for 365 days of travel. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Sunday - if there is a timetable then i expect a train. If the timetable goes out the window for a whole day then i expect compensation.

I was wondering the same thing. Network Rail (NR) journey planner is promising a bus between Slough and Hayes up until the 7.40am departure from Maidenhead so work is obviously starting up again overnight in the same place.. So maybe don't be too hopeful

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

NickB....no, you're paying for 5xdaysx52 weeks of travel, less public holidays.

Who dictates what are working days and which aren't though?.. Surely a season ticket would still be cheaper if (hypothetically) someone worked Tuesday to Saturday every week (so 5 days each week)? That hypothetical person who bought that season ticket would definitely not have made it into work today

It might be interesting to look at how compensation works on the newer franchises operating Delay Repay.

Do season ticket holders on Delay Repay get compensation for delayed weekend services? Yes (though at a lesser value than that of a weekday delay).

East Coast (http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/customer-service/delay-repay/) and Southern (http://www.southernrailway.com/download/3139.5/passengers-charter/) both specificially refer to how this is calculated and this is done on the basis of the season ticket being used 1 in 4 weekends. Other franchises such as London Midland (http://www.londonmidland.com/download/62052.9/passengers-charter-2012/) refer to 546 as the presumed number of journies comprising an annual season ticket.

When you also take into account that Sunday performance and reliability are excluded from FGW's calculation of compensation for holders of season ticket longer than one month, it does seem that FGW season ticket holders are getting a bit of a raw deal on weekends (and even more so for those on former FGW Link services who are calculated on a Monday-Friday basis only) ...


Maybe this will all be addressed with FGW moving to Delay Repay in the proposed extension...

Just so I am clear in my head with this Chris B. Are you saying that by paying for 40 weeks out of 52 weeks. Those additional 12 Weeks of 'free travel' that the Railway is not obliged to for-fill its contract in getting the passenger from A - B? Also to renegade on offering compensation for significant delays?

Not sure I can agree with that. NickB is entirely right to say "I expect compensation if the trains are timetabled to run and they don't" What you seem to be suggesting is that passengers who travel on Weekends / Bank Holidays are not entitled to compensation if everything goes horribly wrong?!!

Maybe I've read too much into that. But if we take a different approach here. What about those who use their season tickets to get to work to serve us Sunday Lunches who work Wednesday - Sunday inclusive? Why should they be held at disadvantage because they have their weekend on Mondays and Tuesdays?

I hold a season ticket and will be required to work Saturdays every so often. If the train gets me to Bristol over an hour late. I would expect to be entitled to compensation.

Day of the week is irrelevant in my view. Whether you hold a CDS, FOR, Season Ticket. If trains are advertised to run as per a timetable. If they do not, then rightly so you should be able to seek redress.

And let's not forget that those Season Ticket holders who travel with TOCs that have the 'Delay Repay' scheme get compensated for every delayed journey, regardless of the day of the week or purpose of the journey. For an annual Season Ticket you divide the price by 546 for a single journey price, then are awarded 50% of that price for a delay of 30-59 minutes, 100% for 60-119 minutes, and 200% for 120+ minutes.