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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: Oberon on October 04, 2014, 14:44:08



Title: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: Oberon on October 04, 2014, 14:44:08
The BBC reports news that First Group are to be granted a five year extension to run Great Western.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29489170

I wonder just exactly what they have promised to be allowed this privilege, devoid of competing interests from other operators?


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: John R on October 04, 2014, 15:54:19
The rationale given is the the franchise area is going to see huge upheaval in the next four years that a) it won't be very attractive to others and b) it makes sense to keep the incumbent through this period. Though given the Thameslink Great Northern franchise has just switched, and you could make the same comments about that one, I'm not sure I totally buy that argument.

The reality is that the government's franchising programme was so completely cocked up by the West Coast franchise fiasco two years ago that DfT have had to make compromises. They just don't have the capacity to handle the number that were due to expire, hence the need for extensions. One could argue that they have wrongly prioritised which ones they have chosen to go ahead with a full refranchise. As an example they have prioritised East Coast, but this is purely political to get that franchise back into the private sector before the election. (Interesting point that since 1st September, the East Coast Main Line is almost fully publicly owned, both track and operator with only the rolling stock still in the private sector.)

The other point of note returning to the West Coast fiasco is that both Virgin and First bids included new stock to replace Voyagers under the wires. It would have been perfectly possible for the Govt to have subsequently underwritten a similar order which by now wouldn't have been far off delivery. But did they? No, of course not. 


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ellendune on October 04, 2014, 16:44:50
Isn't Thameslink coming rather nearer to the end of the disruption than GW electrification?



Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: paul7575 on October 04, 2014, 17:46:29
Thameslink isn't quite a normal franchise either though.  If you bear in mind that they are going through a merger of the original Southern and FCC, all they've really done is allocate it to the owning group that was already running the larger of the two merging franchises, i.e. GoVia. It was probably a bit of a 50/50 probability it would go to First or GoVia. 

Although they did hold a competition to run the TSGN combined franchise, it is not quite a normal 'franchise' either, as it is a short term management contract with the fare box revenue going to DfT, designed to be re-let once the Thameslink project is finished in 2018.  The other obvious difference between GW and TSGN is that the TSGN franchise letting process was still runnning to the expected dates, obviously the GW has suffered from the fallout following the WCML arguments.

Although the major work in the original Thameslink core is basically finished, there is still the London Bridge rebuild, the Bermondsey dive under track changes, and the connection of the GN routes via the Canal Tunnels - the 'final' Thameslink 24 tph through London isn't running until May 2018 - probably similar timescales to GW electrification and IEP introduction.

TSGN is a 7 year franchise, that gives them until 2021 for the dust to settle, at which time presumably it will be re-let on a normal financial basis.

Paul


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 04, 2014, 22:35:13
It is not yet a 'done deal', apparently.  From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29489170):

Quote
First Great Western set to get five-year contract extension

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78006000/jpg/_78006872_78006871.jpg)
First Great Western's franchise includes services from London to South Wales and the West of England

First Great Western (FGW) is set to get a five-year extension to its contract without competition against other bidders, the BBC understands.

The railway firm has already been given two extensions since the franchising programme collapsed two years ago.

This extension enables a major rail electrification programme to be completed but it has angered the Rail Maritime and Transport (RMT) union.

The franchise includes services from London Paddington to South Wales. It also passes through the Cotswolds and the West of England.

Brendon Kelly, from the RMT, said: "All the investment at current is coming from the government, nothing is coming from the private operators, they're literally just managing it and sharing out the dividends to their shareholders. That's money we could be spending on the railways."

Some ^5bn is being invested to electrify the track between Bristol and Cardiff, which involves major work such as raising road bridges.

The BBC understands the plan is to complete the electrification project, get the trains running and then put out a new franchise for the railway open to all bidders.

Chris Irwin, from passenger lobby group Travel Watch South West, said: "One of the worries was that before the government decided to look at the possibility of the five-year franchise extension, we'd get a new franchise entrant coming in. That new franchise entrant would lack the inside knowledge of how this particular bit of railway works and that would be a real disaster."

A Department for Transport spokesman said: "We are committed to providing better services, more seats and more trains across the rail network in the South West as part of our long-term economic plan. As part of that process we are currently negotiating a directly awarded contract for First Great Western to continue running services. We have not yet decided how long that contract will be."


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ellendune on October 04, 2014, 22:54:56
TSGN is a 7 year franchise, that gives them until 2021 for the dust to settle, at which time presumably it will be re-let on a normal financial basis.

There are two general elections before then so who knows what might happen.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 05, 2014, 07:00:10
Franchises take close to a tear fo complete the process, so likely to be comlete before the May 2020 election


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: Timmer on October 05, 2014, 07:09:31
More on this as part of this morning's Sunday Politics 11.15 BBC1 during the regional segment of the program for viewers in the Points West region.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: Ingleborough on October 05, 2014, 12:16:17
BBC, how many times >:(

It is NOT a franchise extension.    It is a direct award on completely new terms.

and yes, it is legal under EU rules.

The details will be made public once negotiations are completed, and as yet, they have not been. The BBC jumped the gun having learned of a meeting that took place 48 hours ago. There are still some things to sort.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: NickB on October 05, 2014, 18:01:14
Will we get delay-repay conditions with this new agreement?


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 05, 2014, 18:08:54
I think it's quite likely - we'll have to wait & see.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: Ingleborough on October 05, 2014, 19:11:41
Delay / Repay on a line that will become one very long building site?  That will be some hard negotiating.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 05, 2014, 19:48:16
Good point! - we'll just have to wait & see....


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: TonyK on October 05, 2014, 20:38:38
I think we are looking at the least worse option here, until the new electric railway is up and running.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: Oberon on October 06, 2014, 08:07:18
The question remains, what are First Group going to give, in addition to what they provide now, for the privilege of running Great Western for an extra five years?


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 06, 2014, 08:33:01
I expect we'll find out when the official announcement is made!


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 06, 2014, 08:47:51
You'll find out once the contract is actually signed


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: broadgage on October 07, 2014, 12:31:22
On balance I am glad that First group are to run the services for 5 years more.
IMHO, they have their faults but are better than the likely alternatives.

As I have posted elsewhere on these forums I have very considerable misgivings about the new trains, especialy as regards catering provision, seat spacing, and passenger comfort in general.
It is said that the internal layout of the new trains is not "set in stone" but can be altered to better meet the needs of the TOC.
Had a different TOC  been appointed, I would have feared that First group would have accepted an inferior layout, and then lost the franchise to a competitor. The new lot would then be able to say "unfortunately the interior layout was not chosen by us, and it is not ideal for the high quality service that we aspire to deliver. We will do what we can with trains foisted on us"

With First group continuing to run the services, they wont be able to blame anyone else for the interior of the new trains.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 07, 2014, 14:19:37
With First group continuing to run the services, they wont be able to blame anyone else for the interior of the new trains.

Apart from the DfT.   ;)


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 08, 2014, 11:29:59
From Rail Technology Magazine (http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/duration-of-new-fgw-contract-undecided-dft-says)

Quote
Duration of new FGW contract ^undecided^, DfT says



The Department for Transport (DfT) is negotiating a directly awarded contract for First Great Western (FGW) to continue running services in the south west, but reports that the contract is for five years are ^unfounded^.

Media reports have suggested that FGW could receive a five-year ^extension^ to run the line, but the DfT has stated ^we have not yet decided how long that contract will be^.

FGW spokesman Dan Panes told RTM the contract is not an ^extension^ but a new contract award, and the TOC is having to re-bid for the contract.

He said: ^This is not, and will not be, an extension of the current franchise. Just as this current franchise we^re in is not an extension of the previous one.

^It is not true that we^re not having to bid for it. We are having to put a proposal to the DfT, and although they have not gone out to full tender on that, they have lots of options open. This would be a completely new contract with new terms, and that^s why we have got to re-bid, because the DfT have to be happy it offers value for money.^

Panes added that when the DfT issued a procurement notice in March, which they have to do under EU rules, the maximum contract length that could be awarded was five years. ^That^s the absolute maximum that they could give us,^ he said.

The RMT rail workers^ union, however, has been angered by the potential decision and the ^lack of competition^.

Brendon Kelly, from the union, told the BBC: ^All the investment at current is coming from the government, nothing is coming from the private operators, they're literally just managing it and sharing out the dividends to their shareholders.

^That^s money we could be spending on the railways.^

A five-year contract would give time for the operator to handle the introduction of Hitachi^s new ^Super Express^ rolling stock onto the newly-electrified parts of the Great Western.

Panes said FGW would be best-placed to continue as the operator, having been there since the start of the electrification project.

^We think that is the solution that would offer best value for the Department and customers. But ultimately it is the DfT^s decision to see if that argument carries any weight,^ he told us.

Edit to correct link - grahame


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: TheLastMinute on October 10, 2014, 00:11:10
Just picked up a rumor from another forum that there is to be an announcement tomorrow (Friday) for a 3.5 year direct award.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: eightf48544 on October 10, 2014, 08:34:09
What an odd timeframe right in the bedding down period of electrifcation, new trains and signalling but before Crossrail.

I suppose DfT dare not give FGW longer as it would be seen as anti competitive or something.

Still no answer to the Wolmar question of what is franchisnfg for!


Title: Re: Great Western - the next "n" years
Post by: grahame on October 10, 2014, 08:42:30
A similar rumour has been around for a while, but vague and I question how real. I think at the time of the consultation we were asked to consider 10 months, 3 years and 5 years in how we answered?     Barring short parliaments, 3 years-ish would move the award process away from the lead up to the next general election - we can discuss whether that would be a good or bad thing.   As regards an announcement very soon - I thought that wasn't possible until March (or at least contracts can't be signed until then) due to the need for a year's notice under an EU law?


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 10, 2014, 10:07:36
As I have posted elsewhere on these forums I have very considerable misgivings about the new trains, especialy as regards catering provision, seat spacing, and passenger comfort in general.
It is said that the internal layout of the new trains is not "set in stone" but can be altered to better meet the needs of the TOC.
Had a different TOC  been appointed, I would have feared that First group would have accepted an inferior layout, and then lost the franchise to a competitor. The new lot would then be able to say "unfortunately the interior layout was not chosen by us, and it is not ideal for the high quality service that we aspire to deliver. We will do what we can with trains foisted on us"

With First group continuing to run the services, they wont be able to blame anyone else for the interior of the new trains.


In all honesty after this week's events I'd be happy to sit on a bench and eat leg of poodle in a bap if only the issues around reliability and capacity could be addressed........I do like the principle of FGW not blaming others though.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: stuving on October 10, 2014, 10:25:41
I presume this "news" is based on the updated franchising timetable released by DfT today (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/362529/oct-2014-rail-franchise-schedule.pdf).

This shows the current direct award ending next September, and the new franchise starting in March 2019. Ergo, the intervening direct award to be negotiated is 3^ years long.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2014, 10:26:43
Oxford Mail is carrying a report of 3.5 year award. Can't yet see it online


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: IanL on October 10, 2014, 10:34:25
On the BBC now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29565156



Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2014, 10:44:29
Quote
No financial deal has yet been agreed, but FGW's parent company FirstGroup will be the only bidder. It was not available for comment.

My emphasis. Surely thaty would be "have been" if this award has happened?.....Nothing I can see on the DfT website. Suspect the press jumping the gun (still) with nothing actually signed.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: grahame on October 10, 2014, 11:10:51
From FGW - a round robin, with nothing especially secret (in fact referring to press releases) so I can copy it ...

Quote
We promised to keep you up to date with news on your rail services. [Xxx] is on leave but I know [xxx] would want me to make sure you were aware of today's announcement by the Secretary of State. He has confirmed that the length of the single tender Direct Award for the Great Western franchise (starting next October) will be 3.5 years, to March 2019. The Secretary of State would also have an option to extend the franchise for a further year.

He is quoted in today^s Guardian saying  ^As part of the government^s long-term economic plan I want to see rail travel in the South West transformed. That is why we are delivering a huge programme of electrification and new, modern trains bringing faster, more comfortable and more reliable journeys. First Great Western is best placed to help to deliver these projects over the next four years."

FirstGroup have also issued a statement which I have set out below for information.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: grahame on October 10, 2014, 11:13:47
And that statement ...

Quote
STATEMENT RE: FIRST GREAT WESTERN FRANCHISE

FirstGroup, the leading transport operator in the UK and North America, notes the publication today by the Department for Transport (^DfT^) of an updated timetable for its rail franchising programme.

Today^s publication confirms that the DfT intend to negotiate a direct award for our First Great Western franchise with duration of three-and-a-half years to March 2019, with a further extension of up to one year at the DfT^s discretion. As previously announced this direct award will ensure stability during a period when a substantial programme of infrastructure upgrades will take place on the network and new trains are introduced.

Commenting, Tim O^Toole, FirstGroup^s Chief Executive, said:

^We welcome the publication of the latest DfT franchising timetable which continues to demonstrate clarity and momentum in the re-franchising programme. A period of detailed negotiation will follow but we are very pleased that, after a consultation process in which the DfT sought the views of stakeholders and user groups across the line of route, the DfT intend to negotiate a direct award of at least three-and-a-half years with us. This will offer good value for money and better services for First Great Western passengers and in particular, will provide stability and allow the planned major projects and new trains to be delivered.^


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: eightf48544 on October 10, 2014, 11:34:51
So 3.5 years from September 2015 to March 2019, 9 months before Crossrail is due to pop it's head out of the tunnel. But the possibility of a 1 year extension.

That will then be an interesting franchoise bid in that any would be TOC will have to bid for 9 months running the TV services which will then go to Crossrail. Should add to the cost! Whereas if the new franchise starts after December 2019 Crossrail will already be in running the TV services. 


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2014, 11:49:10
Hence the possibility of the extension. But if Crossrail start date slips.....I suspect a new franchisee will be doing what you suggest for a year+....

ITT due to be issued Jan 18, so decision needed before then.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: paul7575 on October 10, 2014, 12:25:12
Service transfers to/from another TOC are not that uncommon in the year after a franchise starts, not least because they usually have to coincide with annual timetable change dates.

As an example in the GW region, SWT's withdrawal west of Exeter took place about a year after the franchise started, and the corresponding changes to FGW's services also took place mid franchise.

On current dates Crossrail will be already be running from Abbey Wood to Westbourne Park reversing sidings via Paddington LL, and from Paddington HL to Heathrow (the former Heathrow Connects).   I'd expect the Greenfords will already have been cut back, so the effect of Crossrail on the new franchise is not that huge, I think it will only be 2 the tph stoppers to Reading that will be transferring.

Paul


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2014, 13:21:28
So 3.5 years from September 2015 to March 2019, 9 months before Crossrail is due to pop it's head out of the tunnel. But the possibility of a 1 year extension.

hmmm...."up to" one year.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: eightf48544 on October 10, 2014, 17:09:57
I think it will only be 2 the tph stoppers to Reading that will be transferring.
Paul

It's slightly more than that, Crossrail monopolises the Relief lines from Hayes to Padd in the pek Which is why Twyford and Maidenehad passengers are worried about losing their semi fasts and through branch trains from Bourne End and Henley.


Title: Re: Great Western Franchise Extension
Post by: paul7575 on October 10, 2014, 17:33:27
It's slightly more than that, Crossrail monopolises the Relief lines from Hayes to Padd in the pek Which is why Twyford and Maidenehad passengers are worried about losing their semi fasts and through branch trains from Bourne End and Henley.

No, Crossrail does not 'monopolise the reliefs' at any time - this has been discussed on a number of previous occasions.

This is clearly shown on their website as:

Quote
Other operators^ services are assumed to be:

2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough and Ealing Broadway to Paddington;
1 through train from Henley on Thames to Paddington; and
1 through train from Bourne End to Paddington

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/

There's also a table below showing 'summary of minimum services etc' and pointing out that the table does not include services on the main lines, indicating that the services shown are on the reliefs.   That page was updated to the current wording immediately after the announcement of the extension to Reading.

Paul



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