Great Western Coffee Shop

Ten local MPs have been trying to persuade the Transport Secretary to introduce a new Bristol-Oxford service as part of the Great Western franchise starting in 2015.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29430204

Intriguing - would there be enough line capacity to support this with four express trains per hour running in each direction daily, plus anything else on wheels, including quite a bit of freight?

Well it ran before for a few years, before the SRA killed it 0ff in around 2003. There is much less freight traffic these days with the closure of Didcot A, so maybe. Although 4 express tph becomes 7 tph in 2017.

It would appear a logical extension of an East West Rail service however, so maybe that will be the catalyst for reinstatement, along with stations at Corsham, Royal WB, and maybe Wantage Rd, if the stop can be fitted in amongst the 7 IEPs.

It's in line with where LEP proposals see things going forward over the next 10 to fifteen years, and it provides an extension of the extra Bristol Metro service to Bath which there was talk of turning at Bathampton.  Lot of sense ... we would need to have the 75 mph stock on TransWilts services replaced by 90 mph stock in due course, but then we're needing to step it up from 1 to 2 car units in due course  ;)

I remember using that service, reversing at Didcot. Would it be possible/desirable to cut out Didcot and use the curve that passes the Signalling Centre?

At least one of the peak hour services into Oxford did use the curve, which is still open for passenger trains (1 Xc train in the evening - we spoke about it somewhere). http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14359.msg159226#msg159226

This proposal also duplicate part of the Go-op proposals. http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11010.0

I thought most services avoided Didcot, and it was the exception for them to call there. But then it was 10 years ago now....

Maybe I just got lucky!

It was around 10 years ago that the direct Bristol - Oxford service was withdrawn, the week before I was due to use it for the first time ever. It turned left at Foxhall Junction, just west of Didcot Parkway, so avoiding the station. As I recall, "consultation" on the closure took place to close it at a time just before it would have cost the TOC money - I forget the details. Congestion was said to be the biggest driver for closure. Since then, of course, Didcot power station has ceased to be, as have the regular coal trains from Avonmouth and Royal Portbury Dock. There is room for a resumption of services, and probably sufficient demand, too.

Fortunately for me, most of the services did stop at Didcot. At that time though there were rather fewer Didcot to Swindon services than there are today, particularly off peak.

Unfortunately the service was so subject to cancellations, some knock on effects of problems elsewhere that were tens of miles away, and it seemed to run at the lowest priority. I recall having to wait at Swindon over 3/4 of an hour because of an unexplained cancellation. During that time 3 London services went through all without Didcot stops and control refused to add one even though requested by station staff.

I see that Ed Vaizey is top of the list - and he promotes himself as MP for Didcot and Wantage so maybe he wants a new service between points in his constituency ...

Summer 2001 ... Monday to Friday from Swindon at 07:01, 08:05, 09:45, 10:40, 12:12, 13:12, 14:11, 15:10, 16:35, 18:14, 19:40, 20:31 and 21:42 ... only the 08:05 missed Didcot.    2 trains skipped Didcot on Saturday morning, all called there on Sunday.   The 08:05 was the one that I used to use ... and much the busiest train of the day, which is why lots of us remember skipping Didcot.

We have a separate board for Swindon to Oxford  ;D

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?board=22.0

At Wantage there is a loop so perhaps tht would not be a capacity issue. 

Didn't they cease to make way for the Paddington to Cardiff services which ran (and still do run) between the hourly Swansea services?

It's probably the only sensible way stations stations at Grove (for Wantage), Wootton Bassett and Corsham could ever be provided and, to me at least, it makes more sense running a Bristol to Bedford (and ultimately Cambridge) service using a 110/125mph EMU of some description.  The market is there for direct journeys from Bristol/Bath to Oxford.  The market is there for services at those reopened stations, and that would be possible without stopping any of the faster IEP services.  And the market is there for longer journeys through services from stations such as Bristol/Bath/Chippenham/Swindon to Milton Keynes/Bedford (and the links with the WCML and MML they afford).  That's three birds killed with one stone!

Running East-West Rail as a stopping service from Reading to Bedford/Milton Keynes seems a missed opportunity to me, particularly with Crossrail opening up easier links from Reading via London, so I would love to see a proper East-West Rail service each hour from Bristol to Bedford (then Cambridge) service calling at Bath, Corsham, Chippenham, Wootton Bassett, Swindon, Grove, Didcot Parkway, Oxford, Bicester Town, Winslow, Bletchley and Bedford.

The service was, I believe, registered as "experimental" under the wonderfully titled "Speller Amendment". See http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/misc/experimental.shtm (http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/misc/experimental.shtm) .  The service was terminated several days before the experimental period would have ended.

There are proposals to run EWR on both routes though, it definitely isn't a case of Bristol via Swindon or Reading via Didcot being mutually exclusive.

But suppose they ran (as one proposal suggests) Paddington > Heathrow > Reading > Oxford > Bicester > Bletchley > Bedford?  No one would sensibly use that for end to end purposes, but there are loads of intermediate flows that become available.  The connection across Oxford is also to maximise stock efficiency, and avoid blocking platforms.

There's a similar point can be made about the future Chiltern run Marylebone to Milton Keynes service - it could be said that's no use for end to end flows.

Paul

I quite agree, Paul.  An hourly Bristol to Bedford service and an hourly Reading to Milton Keynes service would be a nice compromise I think - even more so if it came from Paddington via Heathrow when that new link opens.  Two trains per hour to/from Reading would not maximise the potential though.

1. Question ... would you consider stopping at Keynsham, Saltford and Oldfield Park too?   There's the current question of reversing an extra hourly local train at Bath / Batheaston, with various onward options being discussed to save the cost of heavy infrastructure at Batheaston.  The extra stops would slow it, but provide extra loading at one extreme end of the long journey where perhaps there would be capacity.

2. The MPs suggestion says for the next franchise, starting in 2015. We're not sure how long that will be / whether the thought is for a service even pre-electrification; if so, perhaps the TOC could bring these back into service ...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barang_shkoot/13931057107/in/photostream/
... I know that First brought back some old HSTs that were rather abandoned, after all.

Bear in mind that plans for a Park and Rail station at Bathampton (as opposed to Batheaston which is some way from the railway line) have significantly advanced recently, to the extent that even if you didn't turnback local trains in the vicinity, you would still have to consider the possibility of calling through trains there.

Probably an excellent idea.  Logic would suggest that a park and ride will have excellent road access from the trunk roads in the immediate area - so that's off roads like the A36 and A4, making it (with the Bedford trains) a Parkway station longer journeys as well as something to relieve traffic in Bath.

From what I recall, most of the trains called at Didcot Parkway and then reversed.  A few did use the curve, avoiding the station and this was the main reason for the timing of the service being discontinued.   The "trial" service was introduced in June 1998 as a joint venture between Thames Trains and FGW, using TT's Turbo units.  Had it lasted 5 years, i.e. beyond June 2003, it would have become "permanent" and would have needed to go through the official closure procedure, being the only scheduled passenger service to use that short stretch of line at Didcot.  So, the last through train ran on Saturday 17th May 2003.  I believe that some of the trains ran to/from Bicester Town.

The proposed park & ride station would not be situated on the main line towards London, the original station site now being unavailable through track re-modelling in the 1980s. Instead it is planned to be situated on the line heading south towards Westbury.

Calling at Didcot Parkway means that they could take the path of an existing Didcot Oxford service if that helps capacity

It may be that the plans you are referring to have been superseded.

Proposals being circulated locally (I live in the area) by BaNES in Summer 2014 (ie literally a couple a months old) show platforms on both the London and Westbury lines.

So taking all the suggestions below we could have
Bristol TM
Keynsham
Saltford
Oldfield Park
Bath Spa
Bathampton
Corsham
Royal WB
Swindon
Wantage
Didcot (Reverse)
and then maybe all stations to
Oxford.

I suggest that this would start to look much less attractive as a through service to Milton Keynes and/or Bedford.  So no, I wouldn't call it at stations between Bath and Bristol, which could continue to be serviced by Westbury line trains (and more stock will be available by then if capacity is an issue). Neither would I call at Didcot, since the time penalty would be greater, and there are enough services between Swindon and Didcot and between Didcot and Oxford.

This would admittedly have the disadvantage of making Wantage much less attractive for eastbound journey, so an assessment would need to be made of the impact of this against the time advantage of avoiding Didcot.  

The Didcot stop allows more expresses to skip Didcot as it provides a Didcot Swindon Local service it is also essential to make best use of Wantage Road.

No real point in including Saltford, Oldfield Park and Didcot for this service really. Presumably intended traction would be a Turbo unit? But as all of the railway Bristol-Bedford will be under the wires post CP6 (assuming the line north from Foxhall Junction is electrified) this could end up being a nippy electric service - and it would need to be very fast indeed to get out of the way of all those Paddington bound expresses on the main line.

Yes, I'm with John R on this one.  No stops between Bristol and Bath, except perhaps the odd peak call as used to occur with the odd Bristol<>Oxford service back in the day.  I'm not so sure about skipping Didcot Parkway though, for three reasons: Grove/Wantage to Reading/London would then become a bit of a trek if you have to change at Oxford; Didcot to Oxford probably deserves at least three trains an hour and that would be one way of providing it; and a  Didcot call might mean one less of the Bristol<>London trains needed to call there (assuming all of the additional Cheltenham<>Paddington trains do).  However to weigh against that there's the time penalty of at least 5 minutes and the layout at Didcot is far from ideal as a train heading from Oxford to Bristol can only use Platform 4 (coming the other way, Platform 3 is also available) - however I'm not sure how much the layout is likely to be altered as I'm still intrigued on how a 10-car SET will be accommodated on Platforms 3/4/5.

With the stops I mentioned in the post above, then Bristol to Oxford in 1h 20m would be achievable using 110/125MPH stock.  Bristol to Bedford would be well under 2h 30m - quicker than the fairly torturous route by road.

Modern railways seems to believe FGW are going to get the class 387's which are currently under construction for Thameslink so these should be esier to fit between IEP's with their 110mph top speed.

The 90mph class 165/166's should also be avilable for the Transwilts service

Oxfordshire County Council has indicated a desire for 4 trains an hour between Didcot and Oxford, some carrying on to Bicester, which ought to be realisable through east/west.

Wantage/Grove to Didcot is the other major transport corridor that they want to develop public transport links on - the current work is mainly through improving buses, but a rail / tram link is the twinkle in Ian Hudspeth's eye (if it isn't grit ...). To be factored in also though is serving Milton Park intermediately.

kind of related...But it seems that the fastest connection from Swindon to Oxford at the moment is the 0728 from Swindon and changing at Didcot Parkway for the Great Malvern service. Ironically it seems like luck that both of these trains stop at Didcot Parkway. It is however the minimum connection time so it can easily be missed.

TL;DR: It would be great to have a more direct service.  ;D

Stagecoach have recently added more peak journeys on their 66 Swindon-Oxford route, so frequency is now "up to every 20 minutes". Basically every 30 mins throughout the day, journey time 75-80 minutes. The railway is still quicker, but involves a change at Didcot and is more expensive. The buses are all "Stagecoach Gold" and very comfortable as buses go. And the buses get closer to the city centre in Oxford at Gloucester Green.

Agreed that the Stagecoach service is pretty good, and the buses are very comfortable, but the A420 can be a bit of a menace on its long single carriageway sections.  If you're commuting on a 9-5 then the journey times are nearer the 85-90 minute mark which is probably enough to put most folks off and compares very poorly with the potential under 30 minute journey time via a direct non-stop train, or 35 minutes with a stop at Didcot.  That said, the current situation, where a missed connection at Didcot can easily mean an extra 30 minutes on your journey, is also very off-putting for potential commuters, hence why a return to direct trains would be very desirable.

The stopping pattern at Didcot needs a bit of a look at in general and hopefully the set of new / additional / improved / electric services can improve the situation for everyone. Connections though at the moment seem a minor consideration and if anything have worsened in recent years, despite the increase in stops in London services but lack of capacity is also an issue. Doesn't help that typically offpeak there are 2-3 of these clustered in a 20 minute period, with none for the rest of the hour. This balances things out around the various end points westwards, but has unfortunate side effects.

Exactly right - thanks for the memory prompt. There was no suggestion that the service wasn't viable, even if if it wsn't heavily promoted. As well as Oxford, as others have pointed out, it provided an extra service Bristol - Bath - Chippenham - Swindon. The prospect of going through the full withdrawal of service procedure was clearly a little too daunting.

If it had continued there would have been even fewer Turbos for the growth in demand further East.

Yes ... but then there may have been more / earlier Adelantes brought back - or perhaps they never would have gone.  The whole cascade thing is a series of moves and the ultimate might have been ... who knows?

If I remember rightly the Bristol to Oxford service started when the Bristol to London service still had gaps in the half hourly service which this service nicely filled in. As time went by these gaps were filled in by HSTs to/from London which made the Bristol to Oxford service less viable when you had a half hourly HST service between Bristol/Bath and Chippenham & Swindon.

I think this was one if the reasons given for ending the service between Bristol and Oxford.

There seem to be more reasons given than I have had hot dinners this week  ;D

See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14679.msg162470#msg162470 - that's in our "Rumour Mill" - where I have listed the reasons that I've come across.

We should learn from that past / take a careful look at the reasons BUT plan for the future.  To me, the service as proposed looks like it's an excellent idea.  Immediately:
* Provides the extra Bristol - Bath services for Metro West
* Provides for a major flow from Swindon and west thereof (including South Wales and the TransWilts and Stroud Valley) to Oxford
* Provides extra capacity on Swindon - Bath and probably fill in trains in the early morning gaps / peak
Stands on its own right, but also provides enabling service for:
* Corsham
* Bathapmpton Parkway
* Royal Wootton Bassett
* Wantage Road / Grove
* East / West Rail
* Change to electric traction

I for one sorely missed the service when it was lost in 2003 and my regular trips to Oxford became a real pain ... I was using the train for those trips when that service was running, but in rather more recent times I have used the car when going to Oxford ... and I am NOT alone in Melksham / Bath / Bristol / Trowbridge / Swindon in doing that!

The reason I recall the SRA axeing it was that some relatively recent service enhancements were causing performance issues, so they were removed. The SouthCentral services to Bournemouth was cut back to Southampton at the same time. I've not been able to find anything that confirms that though. 

Yes I do also recall that being a reason on both counts.

And I do.

I think this may well happen once EastWest starts running services. They won't want to terminate in Oxford owing to capacity contstraints, so hence the Reading suggestions, which is where the initial services will run to.

As mentioned earlier, 2tph to Reading makes little sense, so one via Reading to Heathrow once the Western access is complete, while the other to Bristol. While that could be a starting point for Grove/Wantage, they'll a) want London trains, and b) more than 1tph, and capacity constraints *will* still exist until Didcot/Swindon is properly quadrified. So not dnough of a driver for that station, but better than now.

The other problem holding Grove back is one of extraction. The vast majority of London bound pax already access trains at Didcot & elsewhere. It won't attract many new pax to the railway. Might bring some away from driving/bus to/from Oxford, but as I say, needs more than 1tph

One of the RUS versions (can't remember which) suggested that there could be an hourly Paddington-Didcot EMU shuttle service, extended at peak times to Swindon. This could I suppose also stop at a resurrected Wantage Road for a peak time service.

Although I too think it would be the case that people from that area would for the train mainly drive to Didcot at present, there is increasing peak time congestion on the route, in particular the Milton junction of the A34/A4130 and indeed on the A4130 into Didcot, hence what I mentioned the other day on improving the public transport connection.

Although the idea of a (points west of Bristol) - Bristol - Swindon - Oxford - (points east of Oxford) service is to be supported, I hope that it is not compromised by details. My concern is that there will be some pinch points which could cause difficulties, and allowing lots of recovery time for such cases will make timings less attractive than they could be.

For example, Oxford station has limited capacity to support additional services until the proposed rebuild is completed. When this is completed allowing increases in train frequencies on the Worcester/Hereford and the Banbury/Birmingham routes and on the re-opened East-West route then new 'pinch points' will be introduced at the flat junctions at Oxford North and Wolvercot. Equally the flat junction at Foxhall will see increased traffic as will that at Wootton Bassett.

Essentially I am concerned that the improvements in reliability resulting from the reduction in conflicts and delays on the wider Great Western following the completion of the new layout at Reading will be frittered away by increases in traffic at other locations. I appreciate that traffic densities in other locations will be lower than that found at Reading so flat crossings are easier to handle, but equally the supply of track is less as well!

I hope that my concerns are unfounded, because I feel that a Bristol - Oxford (and onwards) train service will fulfil a need. There is a significant gap in the current product offering! I just hope that adding more trains will not adversely affect the timekeeping of the existing ones.

I concur, grahame. The railway of 2014 seems a world away from that of 2003, and for all the reasons you list (and more), restarting the services sounds an excellent idea. I suspect it will, if implemented, prove to be more heavily used than any forecast. I declare a vested interest - it would probably allow Mrs FT,N! an easier weekly trip to our daughter's Oxfordshire home than the current ride to Swindon, then a leisurely tour of quaint little villages by a bus that runs once every two hours.

It would need to be limited (very) stop to attract pax onto the long distance service. No good if its quicker via London... The other stops would need to join their local service & change where necessary

Chippenham to Bedford via London - 2 hours and 40 minutes (160 minutes) - from journey planner for tomorrow

Chippenham to Bedford via Didcot and Oxford - 1 hour and 40 minutes (100 minutes) - Journey planner to Oxford and then East / West rail projections.

Even if you add in Royal Wooton Bassett and Wantage stops, I can't see it being slower via London.   And you could save 10 minutes by taking out the reversal at Didcot.

Note that I've taken a worst case example - journeys to Milton Keynes will make a higher proportional gain.   ChrisB - can you give us an example of a journey that would be slowed?

Earlier in the thread, there were many other stations listed prior to Oxford....

From Bristol, it would never be quicker via London, nor, I suspect, would it be cheaper. The option to beat is via Didcot. Swindon to Oxford direct would give the train the edge time-wise over the bus. Given the relatively low capacity of the bus, I would imagine that there would be a fair number of car drivers who may look at rail as an alternative to the daily slog and paying some licenced bandit in a car park.

Agreed. I suspect quite a flow between those stations

Though I don't think Swindon station car park is free, so you're paying for parking either way.

I suspect this would eventually be a Bristol-Cambridge service given the government's commitment to re-open Bedford-Cambridge. What about timings for that?